First time post …
https://koinly.io/
BLITZ SALE
15% OFF
Use coupon code BLITZ007 to receive a 15% discount on any new tax reports. This discount can be used unlimited number of times until expiry!
I paid the USD 99 for Tax report and received the coupon …. still valid for 20:30 hours (of 24 hrs) … which should work till 17:30 on 25 July. There is another post with 20% but did not work for me.
Hope it helps someone
US$20 for referrer and referee.
ATO already have data feeds from all the big exchanges, got prompted in myTax today because they knew I had a crypto account with Coinspot.
only if you KYC
Yep, every single trade/ spot order is recorded ,so if they dont come knocking this year,
U can sure as hell that they will in the future.
I (profanity) with everyone .. except the taxman.
Only way is a non KYC.. , but soon enough, they will all bow down to government regulations, or made illegal to use, forcing the banks to tip off/block any unusual activity.
Bybit I think was the latest to implement KYC.
Using Monero (localmonero.co) paying with it in cash, is your only option.
Save yourself the hassle and do things legit.
KYC?
BINANCE20
Or referral code gives 20 both ends.
Decent tracker, but still too much manual work needed as the syncing APIs (especially Binance's) are poor.
Yes all my problems arose from Binance. To the point where I stopped using Binance completely
Binance is so outdated in so many ways, it's a shame because it's a good exchange otherwise.
Stuff everywhere - reminds me of IBKR, takes ages to find such common things that I have to make notes where I eventually found them. Trading software is excellent (probably because they purchased it themselves), fullfillment very good, some parts of the API are good.
This website doesnt calculate coinspot correctly.
It got mine correctly including some CGT discounts
I pay someone to calculate my returns on cyrpto, that's the ATO job!
Calculating tax on crypto is simple; there's nothing to pay on losses.
So true!
You still need to keep a record for the day you might have a capital gain to offset it
If ATO wants to share my crypto earnings, then they gotta share my losses too.
It's only fair.
Sure, carry forward those losses. ;)
How long can those losses be carried forward to? Is there a limit?
I have been audited by the ATO for cryptos and let me tell you.
THEY KNOW EVERYTHING. They won't tell you what they know until after you've made a declaration so be very careful with what you say and don't be fooled into thinking the ATO is not prepared when they come knocking
Do you have a coinspot account? 😏
Anyone FOI the ATO?
I did and with a few other exchanges as well. They had it all
youre better to declare something, than nothong
I am an old school miner so my situation was a little different and my accountant turns out is very shit. I was able to explain everything to the ATO and the result was a massive bonus in my favour but i had good records and was very transparent
ATO knows if you over paid taxes too.
if you mined coins it's very hard to track
If you kyc/wire money of course it's way easier to track
the whole point of kyc and all the money laundering talk is to make sure taxes are paid, not sure why people are surprised(not saying don't pay taxes)
the only gripe I have is its next to impossible to do the taxes without services like koinly
We would all love to hear your experience and cuirious to know what exactly they know.
Happy to answer any questions about my experiance, i know my struggle was finding solid information on the topic
Yeah, you really have to be careful.
If they don't find out straight away they absolutely will down the road, and you'll be paying for it.
This was 3 years after the fact and the matters went back to 2013
A similar thing happened to me a few years ago. I learned my lesson!
Hi mate, can I suggest this would be a VERY helpful AMA, if you had the time and inclination.
Never thought i would have anything worth sharing but if it can help ill post something either tonight or tomorrow
I think another 20% coupon is DSURGE20
If you never made a single withdrawal to AUD how does ATO find out? technically your gain or loss are never realised? On Binance BTW.
If you trade or sell you realised your gain or loss. It doesn't have to be converted to AUD for it to be a tax event. The ATO gets records from exchanges.
What about conversions into other coins?
Yep, you need to record the Aud value of said coins at the point of trade. Which is shit if using a Defi exchange etc as the price of say BNB to AUD will change during the time you get through PCS etc. Basically they obviously want to make crypto trading too much effort for the small player to bother. I unfortunately tracked/ simulated from March to late April. Bought in May…. Pantsed … Heaps of AUD equivalent prices I need to go back and find, all for trades that resulted in a loss.
@tunzafun001: If you don't report the loss, is there an issue? Only that you can't claim it against a future gain?
@kulprit: That's a pretty huge downside, but there's no tax implications (you don't have to pay anything).
@ely: Sorry I realise that. I just mean the loss could be so small I don't care. IE. In 2017 not many places took AUD fiat for direct coin buys. Had to buy btc or eth (or etc) in Australia. Send somewhere and then straight away trade for the coin you wanted.
Since then I've only bought coins directly with AUD to stop how annoying that is from a tax perspective. Is it worth paying koinly once to get this data from 2017 sorted (it won't make me any money as my investments are tiny).
Finding what each coin was worth in AUD in 2017 is impossible.
@kulprit: Not reporting is a loss is not an issue, really that is to the ATO's advantage and you are free to do so, it is only a gain that must be reported. And yes if you make a gain on one trade and then a loss on the next one you STILL need to report that first gain as each trade is a completely seperate event and even if you lose it all in subsequent trades the gain is a taxable event.
@tunzafun001: Very very (eerily) similar situation. Dont know if it will pan out but in the end with so many trades I went with the initial investment vs final trade (which I did on 30/6/21 which made it easy) to easily work out net profit/loss. Unsurprisingly, a loss, the worst part is if I declare it (as is) will the ATO flag it or if I dont report it is it more likely to ble flagged.. Not sure why they want to make it so hard. Either way, not paying for software to tell me I lost money
@perfectlydark: Hope that was all in done in a single year as otherwise they will come hunting you (and by that I mean all the sale trades need to be in the one FY, otherwise you can't take a start position vs the end position). They aren't intending to make it hard, they are intending to prevent people exploiting the system. The exact same system applies for share traders, money traders and any other asset.
@perfectlydark: same year you should be ok even if they audit. It is the people that do what you are doing over more than a single year that can expect a lot of bad juju from the ATO.
@gromit: yeah 100%! Just spent a fair bit of time sorting it all out anyway. Got a little complicated with some small mining earnings (which I assume count to income rather than capital gains), so in the end Im adding those earnings to my net income, then in the capital gains/loss taking all inputs (cash I invested plus the mined value), less the total sell I did at end of year which cleared everything. So additional income, but a capital loss to carry forward
@perfectlydark: TMK you don't need to declare the mining rewards as income. If it were income, you could deduct expenses creating that income, but no way the ATO will let you do that for hobby mining and possibly decrease income tax from your main job.
Indeed Koinly here indicate hobby mining is tax free:
https://youtu.be/f9iZdeMIbTE?t=430
But I do feel they are being misleading - as it's only the acquisition of the coins through hobby mining that is tax free. As you correctly declared, the mined value becomes the cost base and you'd get CGT on the increase in value when you sold.
It's only when you're using your mining balance like a transaction account (say for purchasing personal goods & services) rather than an investment account does it become tax free.
I also feel Koinly is wrong in saying you never pay tax on purchasing an asset - which is clearly not the case when (amongst others) purchasing an investment property with its stamp duty.
@chyawala: I think we're still a little early for general purchases. Amazon just anounced yesterday they'll be planning on accepting payments in Bitcoin.
But the hobbyist miner more commonly mines Ethereum which currently has too high fees to use for everyday transactions. That possibly will be changing later this year though. Monero's another one commonly hobby mined, maybe Doge - but not sure who accepts those.
However. If you buy a coin and send it to a wallet and then swaps etc occur on the wallet that ultimately convert back to the base coin how is the ATO aware? All they know is your buy in price. If i bough coins in 2017 then again in 2021 and swaps occurred in 2021 how can they say a CGT event has occurred? The original coins are untouched. the swaps occurred on the coins that were just purchased. Therefore no CGT event?
The ATO leaves it up to you to decide which coins you swapped (assuming they got mixed in on the same wallet), giving the flexibility to take more capital gain in a year your other income is down (and vice versa).
If you initially purchased to different wallets, I'm not sure, as this situation doesn't happen with other assets like shares which the rules were designed for.
But regardless, as soon as you purchase the coin at an Austrac registered exchange, the exchange and thus ATO will know your wallet address. Then all transactions on that wallet address such as the coin swap can be seen by anyone. Crypto's high integrity comes from it being so trackable (hence the feds love it when crims use it instead of cash).
So CGT on difference in AUD value of the coins swapped and which purchase price you declare. Of course if you declare it was the 2nd batch that was swapped, you have to declare the 1st batch when you eventually sell/swap the rest.
@Janko: The TX on CEX doesn't happen on L1 (base layer). The TX are recorded on the CEX permissioned ledgers.
The user's coins/tokens only hit L1 when they withdraw them from the CEX hot wallet to a non-custodial wallet. This means that the TX data on the CEX is not immutable.
Hackers could in theory hack the CEX and purge all the TX data. No data = no tracking.
@rektrading: Thanks for picking that up - definitely not what I intended to say but clearly did.
Just to remove the cryptoese for drjamie, the exchange (e.g. Coinspot) and ATO will only know your non-custodial wallet address where you did the swap (e.g. on Trustwallet/Metamask/…) when you actually send it there, not when you initially purchased the coin. Wipe Coinspot and there's no longer a starting point to track your subsequent activity.
Binance, Coinspot etc are registered with Austrac. ATO simply ask for transaction logs.
Binance Original or Binance AU?
The global Binance - binance.com which Australian users use. (binance.com/au)
wait, you guys sell?
What about decentralised exchanges like uniswap?
Yeah, I'm gonna have a ton of fun calculating all my PancakeSwap transactions….
What to declare of you made 10% profit and 70% loss, would it count as loss for next time or do I need to pay CGT for 10%?
10% per profit on ADA and rest of the loss on BTC but I reinvested again at cheaper relate so one day I’ll cover losses and make profit.
The net is accounted for in a tax year, so your losses offset your gains with the balance carried forward to future years
It's based on your bet amount, so the 70% loss can be reported as a capital gains loss and carried forward if you were to cash out in the following financial year.
Hope the ATO know what's happening with the Pancake Bunny compensation pool ..coz I dont. I put a thousand bucks in (in May…yay..not!) that became $20 worth overnight (due to exploit hack), which they then provided a compensation token, which is now sitting in their compensation pool (across July 1) for 90 days 'earning' cake +BNB +Bunny …which is all dwindling away to not much. How I convert that to AUD I dont know. Do it at the end I guess . Plus made 100 trades that all then triggered stop loses after a day or so for no gain. Staked some stuff in Binance, but really earned nothing as the value is less than the % yield. This is the shit bit as I recon tax is payable, unless I sell and realise the loss to offset the staking "gains".
My Binance KYC never worked, but the Binance android app allows trading (PC still asks me to complete KYC and doesn't work). App is terrible for working out AUD value though at the time, So I guess I have a 'not me' card to play.
Can I just turf the wallet and call it a total loss? Effort : Return ratios are poor. I dont see any reason why tax shouldnt be simply based on AUD in Vs AUD out.
This kind of websites can calculate correctly, if you are buying/selling with stable parities. For example, If you buy BTC with USDT then sell it another parities like BNB or ETH system get confused and make wrong calculation.
Did a coin swap the other day requiring fee to be paid in BNB. Bang, CGT event on the increase in price of that BNB from when I first bought it months ago, about 80c worth.
Another coin swap, fees in a different coin I didn't have so had to buy some. Bang, CGT event of the increase in price of that coin in 10 minutes from buying it to paying fees with it. $0.06.
My Koinly transaction list is flooded with these and about 10 staking reward transactions per day that are taxable as income, then capital gain/loss on their change in dollar value when sold/swapped.
Koinly helps a ton as it has to estimate the AUD equivalent at each transaction (which won't match what the ATO estimates). But it'll miss certain categories of transactions too and the only way to know what it's missed is to go through it all.
It's a frickin' nightmare. Wasted days sorting this shit out. Just send me the bill, ATO.
So I just tried this and it's a POS.
Many transactions are broken and reporting more holdings than I own.
Buyer beware
Or takes forever to sync. I'll come back tomorrow.
Binance sync is slow on all trackers, if it was Binance. I also had it reporting more BTC than I had - hours of tracking it down I discovered in one of Binance's scattered reports the alt coins I'd bought with BTC weren't being reported, only those I'd purchased with my AUD balance.
Also those I'd purchased via Binance's "Buy Crypto" menu directly from the bank via Poli (costly newb mistake) don't come across either.
I think it's better if you manually upload the csv to Koinly. When I did that it fixed all the broken transactions. I think the sync is completely (profanity).
might be the flood of people doing taxes, binance just had a koinly seminar on the 23rd. i tried a few month ago and it took like 30min for a few hundred transactions
HURRY30 code still works guys, 30% off for the first year
coupon does not exist or has expired
Make sure you enter your private key or recovery phrase when prompted ;-)
no, you
Crypto Tax Calculator with code HURRY30 seems better?
BINANCE20 for 20% off
I wonder how a government body can charge tax or take a slice of the gains,
for something that does not exist in a jurisdiction of a country, let alone within a political system.
This is an imaginary token and exists borderless.
It might have used the resources of a country to 'produce',
but other than that, it's something that belongs to everyone on earth,
like the sun or air….which you can't tax.
I know why the Government wants to "take a slice of it", but it does not exist within their territory.
Yeah I am shocked crypto tax is fair to charge. It’s such a risk in the first place, seems harsh if you actually gain they nab approx 1/3
You own it and you can exchange it with whatever you want. So it exists..
Is this like owning a .JPG or a .GIF file ?
which can then be exchanged for something tangible ?
what if the intangible was not existing within the confines of the Australian territory,
then is it still subject to Australian law, to go and take a slice of that 'gain' ?
your house or car physically exists on Australian soil,
and for the purpose of tax, can be calculated,
but for something intangible and borderless, should any government take a slice of it ?
Huh ?
Crypto is taxable because the tax code says it is.
Just like shares, property, and any other investment.
It doesn't matter whether it's tangible, where it's located, which country produced it, or any of the other things you've listed - it simply needs to be covered by the tax code.
There are plenty of countries that don't have CGT and income tax on digital assets.
Top 10 countries to bank crypto gains
https://youtu.be/omGrsqi7nrQPlan B passports. Top 5 programs to acquire a second passport.
https://youtu.be/5O9WDJaDSnMGo where you're treated best. Second citizenship.
https://youtu.be/UfIFWuNTeRs
Hodl your coins or digital assets, get a second passport and move when you've accumulated enough for that lifestyle that you've already wanted.
The Australian border has got nothing to do with taxes. You pay taxes for your overseas assets and income as well. Clearly you don’t understand taxation you should educate yourself or you may pay the consequences
@Nedkellyinthebush: You do mention "overseas assets" and incomes,
and historically, these have resided in another country's jurisdiction.
There's no precedence for cryptocurrencies,
so why do people point to some example in history that does not exist.
Cryptocurrencies are borderless and exists in cyberspace.
I understand taxation as a means for the government to collect a portion of the wealth of its citizen,
to pay for collective services and staff who administer it.
I just don't understand the nature of taxing cryptocurrencies and felt it was opportunistic :-P
It's more about where you regularly live, your tax residency, rather than what is being taxed. If you're enjoying not being robbed because our welfare system helps minimise hordes of desperate starving people, then it makes sense to not have a way to avoid that. No-one would invest in Aussie shares here either if it were based on boundaries.
@Janko: I like your answer the most here, because it is about maintaining the socio-economic balance,
and claiming a portion of that citizen's wealth, to redistribute it amongst its population equitably and to look after the sick, needy.
I just wanted to say that there's no precedence in human history,
for something like cryptocurrencies which exists in cyberspace and not within the 'rights' of any government, for them to lay a claim on it.
I understand it, if you grew a tree on this land that produced mangoes which you sold, a house that was leased, a business's sales or issued a share linked to a real-world company, but imagine each country starting to tax a portion of the sun's rays that you are receiving, a weird…because the sun belongs to everybody.
Don't forget to claim the costs of keeping track of your transactions.
Government: You owe us money. It’s called taxes.
Me: How much do I owe?
Gov’t: You have to figure that out.
Me: I just pay what I want?
Gov’t: Oh, no we know exactly how much you owe. But you have to guess that number too.
Me: What if I get it wrong?
Gov’t: You go to prison
—
Come on Scumbag Ato - just prefill the my tax if you lot are so convinced i owe you x amount.
The ATO provide the information for you or your tax agent to work out how much you owe. The ATO may or may not know exactly how much you owe, they cannot be certain they are aware of all your transactions in any point in time so it is on you to work it out honestly. They send reminders about various things like EPP, foreign investments, crypto etc when they know you have at least some of those. The onus has to be on the Tax Payer as otherwise the system would be completely open to rorting "but the ATO stated I only owed this much, not my fault they did not correctly discover my BTC hidden under an alias in foreign country Y"
I never got into the trickier side of crypto (staking/defi/untrackable coins like monero etc). I paid for a year of crpyptotaxcalculator and it says I potentially owe nearly double of what I had calculated. Have nearly 500 transactions ( I did a lot of day/swing trades and got rekt in the big crash a few months ago) and now torn between going through it all to verify and just declaring on the larger amount….
depending on how much it is, it may be worthwhile handing over to an accountant to calculate it for you. (their fee is tax deductible in this years tax return).
If I received an amount of money from relative as a gift and used it to invest in crypto. Will I be taxed on the gains?
U get taxed on cgt, so yes assuming profit.
what happens if we over declare gains? My report is higher than i think it should be so was thinking of going with the higher amount.
Nice try ATO