Parking Fine in a Shopping Centre (Wilson Parking - Breach of Contract)

roddo on 26/03/2021 - 01:01
Last edited 26/03/2021 - 20:04 by 1 other user

Hi OzB

I work at a shopping centre with a 4h parking limit. I don't normally park in that car park but because I had to leave midday for a vaccination and then return, I thought there would be no issues.

Arrival: 08.30
Departure: 11.00

Second arrival: 1.30pm
Second departure: 5.00pm

$80 Fine issued: 3.30pm ($65 if I pay before 4 weeks time)

So I got served a "parking breach notice". On the back it states that this is not a fine and is a breach of contract, which I agreed to by parking my car and leaving it there. It is an appeal process from a private company (a division of Wilson Parking). I am not sure if they say you can't leave then come back again later in the day.

I have two questions -

1) all they have on me is my number plate and car make/model; if I undergo the appeals process which requires my details, is this a move for them to have more info on me and chase me harder? Can they even access my details through my number plate?

2) They say that if I park there again and not pay the fine, they will tow my car and then take me to court for breach of contract. Will they know who I am if I change number plates?

Cheers!

Automotive

Comments

  • Davo1111 on 26/03/2021 - 01:10
    +3

    all they have on me is my number plate and car make/model; if I undergo the appeals process which requires my details, is this a move for them to have more info on me and chase me harder?

    yes

    Can they even access my details through my number plate?

    eventually yes, but it costs them money.

    2) They say that if I park there again and not pay the fine, they will tow my car and then take me to court for breach of contract.

    They can tow you if you park there again

    3) Will they know who I am if I change number plates?

    no

    btw, you parked there for longer than 4 hours. If you sat down and read the terms, you'd read the 4hr parking limit relates to a 24hr period (or words to that effect). So you are not as "innocent" as you think you are.

    • roddo on 26/03/2021 - 01:55

      Hmm ok if that's the case, I guess they got me.

      • EightImmortals on 26/03/2021 - 08:18
        +11

        No they didn't. These parking mobs cannot enforce those 'fines' and you did not 'accept a contract' just by driving past a sign.

        • Crow K on 26/03/2021 - 09:13

          There's been decades of court cases specifically around this point.

          Terms and conditions printed on a sign your drive past [or printed on the back of the ticket* - as in a 1970 case, over fifty years ago] - the very first time you park there you'd probably fine as you're not expected to know the terms e.g. "I would have had to get out of my car and stand there reading a lengthy bit of text on sign on the spot with a bunch of cars honking me, not reasonable, Your Honour".

          Go back and park there again [or worse still, park there a few times] and you're choosing to go to park at a place you know has terms and conditions attached to it [that now you apparently can't be bothered to read at any stage] - you're now bound by them.

          *back of the ticket had the slightly different problem being additional terms being added to the agreement after you'd initially accepted. Again, first time you would be fine but if you went back again to a place that you now know has terms printed on their tickets, same result

          • EightImmortals on 26/03/2021 - 09:31

            @Crow K: Our local shopping centres don't issue printed tickets, they just scan your plate as you drive past.

            • pharkurnell on 26/03/2021 - 10:30

              @EightImmortals: Mitcham shopping strip has sensors in the ground that pickup when you park - to the second… its all electronic, inc sending you the fine.

            • Crow K on 26/03/2021 - 11:28
              +1

              @EightImmortals: Yes, one of our local shop parks does this [and another is still on the old printed ticket front] - in both cases it's the sign you see when you drive in that would have the T&C that bound you [or if you've used an app to sign up for the "scan my plate for extra parking time" benefit, it will (also?) be in the terms and conditions on the app. I was more mentioning the ticket thing as a separate aspect to the "I never agreed" argument that's come up in court before.

    • cynicalmike on 26/03/2021 - 09:00
      -1

      eventually yes, but it costs them money.

      and they pass this cost on to you.

      /end thread

      • Davo1111 on 26/03/2021 - 09:03
        +6

        It's not as cut and dry. The debt is not enforceable

        • cynicalmike on 26/03/2021 - 09:05

          debt collectors

          • Davo1111 on 26/03/2021 - 09:08
            +6

            @cynicalmike: It's still not enforceable

            • cynicalmike on 26/03/2021 - 09:46

              @Davo1111: true, but they are annoying.

            • Almost Banned on 26/03/2021 - 12:04

              @Davo1111: Why do you believe the debt is not enforceable?

              • Davo1111 on 26/03/2021 - 13:51

                @Almost Banned: When these carpark places get "forced" into court, if they dont lose, they get a menial payout that no way recoups the cost.

                • Crow K on 26/03/2021 - 14:11

                  @Davo1111: What does the size of the final payout have to do with whether a debt was originally enforceable?

                  We all know it may not be economic or practical to pursue a 'small' debt, but that's nothing do with whether it's enforceable or not.

                  • Davo1111 on 26/03/2021 - 14:30

                    @Crow K: There's several discussions going on at the moment.

                    A private carpark "debt" is not a "fine", and isnt enforced by the SDRO (or whatever the state equivelent is).

                    Some carparks do have an agreement with the local council, and they produce fines that can be enforced by the state.

                    • Crow K on 26/03/2021 - 14:39

                      @Davo1111: Hmm, maybe. I agree entirely about the rest of the discussions going on elsewhere - private companies can't impose "fines", they can't collect them because they aren't the government etc.

                      This branch of the discussion seems to have begun with the curious notion that a debt to the carpark isn't enforceable. Are we talking about something different? (e.g. "The fine was illegal so it couldn't have ever become a "debt", and that same """debt""" isn't enforceable because they can't collect fines in the first place") - if so, I agree.

    • bobbified on 26/03/2021 - 13:10
      +1

      If you sat down and read the terms..

      Wonder what would happen if I stopped my car at the entrance and sat there reading all the terms and conditions. I'm not even sure whether I'd be able to concentrate with all the cars honking behind me! lol

  • AustriaBargain on 26/03/2021 - 01:13
    -1

    Why did you park in the exact same spot?

    • roddo on 26/03/2021 - 01:55

      haha! I didn't park in the exact same spot, it was further down.

  • tonyjzx on 26/03/2021 - 01:14
    +19

    Wilson, a HK China based company.

    Ignore the fine. They have no power, only intimidation.

    There's a tacit agreement when you enter the carpark but you didnt sign nothing so F' them.

    I have gotten a few of these over there years and ignored them all.

    Of course dont ignore stuff from the OSR or whatever you have in your state.

    • Davo1111 on 26/03/2021 - 01:15

      They have no power, only intimidation.

      As of january 1st, in WA, they have the right to tow vehicles for subsequent contractual breaches.

      • CMH on 26/03/2021 - 03:19

        Just to clarify, when you say subsequent contractual breaches, you mean if you parked there again, but not breach the contract they can't tow for previous breaches?

        Not in WA, nor ever been there, just curious.

        • Davo1111 on 26/03/2021 - 07:55

          I doubt it, but not sure. Haven't read up on the law properly.

      • roddo on 26/03/2021 - 13:47

        The back of the "fine" says that the vehicle may be towed in the future and impounded until the original notice is paid.

        • SF3 on 27/03/2021 - 00:21

          Cheaper to get new plates, than pay the fine?

    • [Deactivated] on 26/03/2021 - 07:58
      -3

      you didnt sign nothing

      Your post lost all credibility with this line. Go back to school.

      • fantombloo on 26/03/2021 - 14:17

        Better get a lawyer son, better get a reeel good one.

    • jv on 26/03/2021 - 14:49

      Ignore the fine. They have no power,

      the Triads…

  • knasty on 26/03/2021 - 05:45
    +2

    Here is NSW-based guidance:

    https://www.lawaccess.nsw.gov.au/Pages/representing/lawassis…

    • futureminime on 26/03/2021 - 10:13
      +2

      What can happen if you get a private fine?

      If a private organisation gives you a fine, this can't be enforced through Revenue NSW. A private organisation can make a claim against you for the amount that it has fined you by filing a Statement of Claim against you in a civil court, for example, the Local Court.

      To be successful, it would have to prove that:

      you entered into a contract with the organisation
      you breached that contract (that is, you did not follow the terms of that contract).

      One of the main things with the claim is their need to prove it was you. The other one would be like the Credit Card fees - The value of the contract break fee needs to be reasonable and proportional to the loss of revenue. Realistically its very difficult for them to prove who was operating the vehicle and in breach. I don't see how they could then subsequently know it was you and tow you for continued breach. What happens when you sell the car and the next owner parks there? Do you think they would take the risk of them breaking the contract when the new driver has done nothing wrong?

      That said - Davo1111 has it right. Just because you can get away with it doesn't mean you aren't doing the wrong thing. In NSW there is a shopping center right next Macquarie University. The not allowing multiple parks per day makes complete sense when you see how abusable it is, and how you could get an entire university worth of students parking, walking across the road and not even going to the shops.

  • Master Bates on 26/03/2021 - 07:28
    +1

    If you work there, can you not ask the shopping centre management or your employer for advice on the matter?

  • [Deactivated] on 26/03/2021 - 07:43
    +1

    Problem solved if you say someone else was driving (don't give your or any others details). Surely they cannot fine the car as it is not a sentient entity. They will have to identify it was you both times (but my sister/brother/mother has a similar hairstyle/facial features) so the entry conditions have been accepted by 2 individuals.

    • Davo1111 on 26/03/2021 - 07:53

      They could deny the "appeal" on the basis you said you're not the driver.

    • Quantumcat on 26/03/2021 - 08:54
      +8

      You shouldn't contact them at all

      • [Deactivated] on 26/03/2021 - 11:23
        +1

        that is the first step
        even if they do manage to get something through some sort of FOI act, then you can say its a family car with different users and both had a 4 hours window of free parking.

        • Davo1111 on 26/03/2021 - 14:30

          then you can say its a family car with different users and both had a 4 hours window of free parking.

          further incriminating yourself that you were there

          • John Kimble on 26/03/2021 - 16:14

            @Davo1111: But no crime was committed in the first place.

          • [Deactivated] on 26/03/2021 - 16:22
            +2

            @Davo1111: if somehow they get the owner of the car, that doesnt mean the customer to the centre was roddo both times.

            the entry contract is with the driver of the vehicle, not the vehicle or the passengers. if the vehicle stays for 3hrs with mr roddo and then 2 hrs later mrs roddo spends another 3hrs shopping then that is acceptable, because mrs roddo may not know where mr roddo was in the morning. you would only find out the coincidence after the "fine" was "issued".

            Cars cannot be issued with a contract of entry, only people can.

  • RM on 26/03/2021 - 08:12
    +5

    So a discount for paying the fine sooner….negotiate with them for $1 if you pay in the next 30 mins

    • bobbified on 26/03/2021 - 12:55
      +1

      That's still a waste of $1.

      • RM on 26/03/2021 - 12:55

        Not if you consider it as a parking fee for a whole day

        • bobbified on 26/03/2021 - 12:56
          +1

          But this is OzB - why pay for something you don't have to? 😁

          • RM on 26/03/2021 - 12:57

            @bobbified: agreed - consider it as a drop from $65 - it's a DEAL

  • Traveller107 on 26/03/2021 - 08:22
    +3

    Around 8 years ago something similar happened to me. I refused to pay the unenforceable "fine" after a quick chat with relevant government authorities. Ignored the "parking notice" and continued to park there. Nothing the parking company could do as they rely on intimidation to get such payments.
    Things might be different now though.

    • andrek on 26/03/2021 - 09:49
      +1

      Similar story with me. My wife parked our car at Eastwood's Aldi car park. Can't recall the problem, I think she was a few mins late after 2hr free parking, or the ticket was not visible. The parking officer still was there issuing the fine when she arrived. Even though she explained, he issued the fine anyway.

      The car is registered to me. A week later I received the same notice as OP. Sent it to the bin, just like with the later follow up notice. Nothing happened after that. We still park in that car park a few times a week for years after the incident.

      I suspect the cost-benefit doesn't justify those private companies going after those who ignore the warnings. AFAIK they need to prove that it was I who parked the car there and if I don't admit it - they don't have anything and I am not required to tell them who the actual person was. So at the end they will spend a lot of resources to find out who it was, but will only be able to recover a reasonable admin fee under $100. So not worth it.

  • Tom088 on 26/03/2021 - 08:41
    +4

    Ignore it and do nothing

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rw3fWb61wgQ

  • Quantumcat on 26/03/2021 - 08:54

    Ignore it. They can't do anything unless you give them something first by responding.

    • dasher86 on 26/03/2021 - 09:24
      +3

      so respond as an enemy of yours?

  • SF3 on 26/03/2021 - 09:22

    I wonder what type of car park it is, one of those without a paper ticket/card and rely on cameras on entry and cameras on exit?

    I'm aware some of the Westfield malls, they mention if you leave and you can return after a 45min gap.

    This Wilson run place sounds dodge.

  • Porker on 26/03/2021 - 09:40
    +2

    When I last looked into it, the infringement from such companies wasn't enforceable as a 'fine'. The advise I got back was that the only real means these car parks can force you to pay anything is to put a gate up.

  • Snake 4 on 26/03/2021 - 10:35

    No idea which state you are in but in NSW they can NOT TOW YOUR CAR OR WHEEL LOOK IT.

    Ignore the 'fine'.

    • [Deactivated] on 04/04/2021 - 08:39

      Source please

  • Samsungnote10 on 26/03/2021 - 10:35

    here is my recommendations based on personal experiences, heaps of googling and reading other peoples experiences, i got one about 10 years ago, engaged them, got advice, then ignored, also happened to an elderly relative too

    • ignore it, these fines all are issued by pty ltd company which is a private company which is unenforceable, its like me fining you for parking in my driveaway using a company I set up
    • they make it sound its enforceable, and legally threatening with additional costs so you get scared and pay up
    • note how the fine sounds very legal and scary but if you read it carefully its all a bit wishy washy
    • as many have said they have to prove it was you
    • they want/hope that you engage them by replying to their letter so they can keep on sending you reminders/warning letters (thats the mistake I made)

    obviously a proper governement/state/council fine you do not ignore , unless you really dont care about your credit or one of those peoples that have $1000s in fines but dont seem to care

  • happydude on 26/03/2021 - 11:03

    The trick is not to contact them.

    When you "appeal" they get your details. The online form is setup so you have to.

    You also cannot be clamped in WA. To tow it they need to go through a process they won't be able to do on the spot and you have to be 60min over.

    https://www.transport.wa.gov.au/mediaFiles/licensing/DVS_P_F…

  • happydude on 26/03/2021 - 11:16
    +2

    To answer the question

    1) Yes, they can apply for the owners details through the courts. They do this as a bulk application when they have a build up. But remember owner does not equal driver. Some nasty letters to your address with increasing costs each time is basically all they can do. It's much more intimidating when they know your address but it is just as meaningless.

    2) No, they cannot tow it or anything else if you just park there again. But if you breach the terms again they may tow the vehicle if the towing conditions are met for that occasion.

    To tow it they do need to wait 60 min, then call the truck, then if you get back to your car before it's on the truck giving it back to you free. If it's on the truck charge $100. And all that needs to be organised by someone being paid minimum wage. And there needs to be clean towing signs in the car park.

    https://www.transport.wa.gov.au/mediaFiles/licensing/DVS_FS_…

  • bobbified on 26/03/2021 - 11:17
    +3

    Throw whatever they left on your windscreen in the bin and never think about it again.

    Writing in to "appeal" is how they often get your details to harass you, so don't. But if you are tempted to do so, put a fake name and international address on it. They can chase a ghost.

  • cauilfield on 26/03/2021 - 11:19

    not much they can do if you are in VIC. just ignore the "fine"

  • [Deactivated] on 26/03/2021 - 12:48

    $80 fine vs $47 replacement fee for number plates , i know what i would choose. but as everyone said morally speaking you are did the wrong thing unintentionally but now that you are "informed" doing it again would be considered a dick move. however at the same time others are correct , just ignore it and in future try not to abuse it.

    • Keplaffintech on 26/03/2021 - 13:17

      I don't see how getting fresh new plates with the same plate number will make a difference. The only way to change your plate number is to get a personalised plate, which isn't that cheap.

      • [Deactivated] on 26/03/2021 - 14:05

        @keplaffintech

        Nuh , in NSW at least..not sure about other states. they have a fresh set in storage behind the counter they pull from if plates are needed.

        You literally walk in with your old plates and just request new ones and hand your old ones over. it may fall under "exchange number plates" in that listing which is $59 as the terms are very vague as the $47 fee does specify "new or replacement" also.

        I have never done it personally myself as i have not had the need to but thats the idea , there is no way they would have a duplicate set of your current plates on hand so they would have to give you a new number/letter combo regardless.

      • md333 on 26/03/2021 - 14:07

        Normally if you request damaged or stolen plates be replaced you will just be given the next new plate. You have to make a special request if you want them re-made with the original numbers (in WA anyway).

  • John Kimble on 26/03/2021 - 16:19

    So I got served a "parking breach notice".

    How did you even receive the fine? In the mail? If so, how did you exit the car park then?

    I thought the rego recognition software identifies you've parked over their daily free period threshold and when you try to exit the second time would just make you pay before you exit?

    Or is there no rego check/boom gate?

    • WreckTangle on 26/03/2021 - 19:29

      Yeah, boom gates are harder to avoid i imagine…you pay or it doesnt open!

      • [Deactivated] on 27/03/2021 - 01:21

        i see you have never tailgated someone through a boom gate before.

    • roddo on 26/03/2021 - 22:51
      +1

      They stuck it to my windscreen. There is no barrier to entry/exit of the car park.

  • Manny Calavera on 28/03/2021 - 15:12

    1: You can't contract for damages

    2: If you feel really bad about it, just offer them what the parking charge would have been (I'm guessing like $5)

    3: These guys business model consists of flinging shit and seeing what sticks

  • htc on 30/03/2021 - 19:52

    Do not send them email or letters for leniency, because then they have more proof that you have parke there.

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