There is a sea of red https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/BTC-USD?p=BTC-USD&.tsrc=fin-…
Musk is tweeting Bitcoin is too high.
I put all my savings in Bitcoin because someone here said it was a value store. /s
But seriously why is it crashing this time?
Inb4 buy the dip
@modiika: BTC has the brand recognition to bring in big smart 💵 into this market. Shrimps and crabs don't have to understand how BTC work to make gains. They only need to accumulate and hold while waiting for 🐋 to do their thing. It's kind of like an ETF/ETP.
The real gains are in the altcoin forest. People that enter this space have to DYOR. These people can 10x, 100x or even 1000x if they play the game right.
@whooah1979: man the koolaid you must have drunk to get to your point in your post.
You are gambling and you know it. It's like reading a form guide and thinking you have inside knowledge on horse racing that will let you get ahead.
I'm not disputing that you probably made money and might make more money. That doesnt mean bitcoin is not effectively a ponzi scheme.
@modiika: Who doesn't like a dash of vitamin B with their kool-aid? People should try it. Who knows, maybe it can help to maintain a good and growing portfolio.
Anyways, we're going around in circles so I'm out. Cheers.
Investing is when you buy into a business that makes you a return because they are profitable and make money.
Digital assets are classified by government agencies around the world as commodity, property and/or intangible assets. It can give the owner a return in the form of capital gains, spot/derivatives trading and/or interest from lending. Owner can take out interest free CDP or interest bearing ELOC to invest in tangible assets.
Anyone that says hodl digital assets can't generate returns may have to DYOR.
It's a thing you can own and the government would like to tax it. That does not mean it has real underlying value.
The technology is open source and any one (with the technical know how) can make a coin (and 5000+ have). So, the value in a specific crypto, is largely not in its tech as that is common knowledge and can be implemented by anyone else.
To be a successful currency, you need at least 2 things (maybe more) for it to work. You need for people to agree it has value and for that value to be stable. The problem is while (some) people agree it has value, they don't agree what the value is, which makes it useless to trade as a currency but as you can see useful as a way to gamble on making money. If people do agree that 1 bitcoin is worth say 1 gold bullion, then its no longer an investment. Bitcoin, if it is a currency doesn't produce anything. Mining bitcoin does, as long as bitcoin has value.
Now if you move away from crypto as a currency and on to it being platform for 'smart contracts'. Well first you have the technology problem that anyone can make one, so its impossible to predict currently which ones would be popular. However, the smart contracts are vulnerable because they depend on the inputs into the system. One example I saw a coin spruiking was a theoretical application of monitoring sensors of a city water supply and ensuring the quality of the water met the required conditions of the contract and paying the water facility accordingly. But the smart contract cant guarantee the input to the sensors hasn't been tampered with, ultimately it only slightly reduces the avenues for fraud. Finally, the need for 'smart contracts' is entirely predicated on an assumption that there is a strong need for self executing contracts and other software running on public blockchains.
There is no rational reason for bitcoin to be worth 64k this week and 45k next month, 5k a year ago, and 20k a few years before that. The changes in the value of bitcoin and the alts has nothing to do with their value or growth and only seem tied to speculation and gambling. This is not to say that bitcoin or an alt will never amount to anything more substantial and become more important in the future, simply that it is not related to the movement. The money in crypto is currently being made in trading crypto between other people trading crypto. The like 5th most valuable coin by market cap is the binance coin which is only used to pay fees on crypto transactions on one single platform. That's almost as insane dogecoin, which really shows the whole crypto market is a joke with most people believing they are scamming someone else.
Such returns are not income, ponzi schemes generate 'returns', you are not at odds with what i am saying. They don't productively make anything to generate real value, they are a currency tranportation / empty vessel.
Therefore should be stable priced like a real currency so they can be exchanged for things of real value… but it's not. The hype is not about the practical convenience of using crypto, its people trying to make capital gains from others due to the hype.
That's irrational exubrance like tulip bulbs were.
Of course, it's income. ATO has made private ruling that all gains derived from digital assets are taxable income (unless they say otherwise).
@whooah1979: It's a capital gain. And you completely miss the point.
Invest in stocks or real estate as they provide products and services of productive value that generate income. They have both income generating (real production value) and capital gain generating potential, not just capital gains (or losses in the case of crypto in future… pop)
Crypto and currencies in general don't, they are a means of transporting value generated by other means, and therefore should be more stable to be of practical use in barter to be a real 'currency'
@MrFrugalSpend: CG is only one way for digital assets owners to make an income. Another one is to participate in block validating. This information can be found on the ATO website.
Anastasia has to pay CGT (when selling) and ordinary income when filing their yearly tax return.
https://www.ato.gov.au/General/Gen/Tax-treatment-of-crypto-c…
Example 1
Anastasia holds 50,000 NULS tokens, which she stakes to a NULS pool as a premium staker. Anastasia receives additional NULS tokens when her pool participates in consensus, including a small payment of tokens from the node leader for supporting their node.
The money value of the additional NULS tokens Anastasia receives is assessable income of Anastasia at the time the tokens are derived.
The cost base of Anastasia’s additional NULS tokens will be their market value at the time they were derived.
Merindah also has to pay CGT and ordinary taxable income.
Example 2
Merindah has held TRX tokens since December 2018, entitling her to receive monthly BTT airdrops from February 2019.
The money value of the BTT tokens Merindah receives as a result of holding her TRX tokens is assessable income of Merindah at the time the tokens are derived.
The cost base of Merindah’s airdropped BTT tokens will be their market value at the time they were derived.
People from traditional financial markets may want to take a few minutes to DYOR before entering this space thinking that their knowledge of traditional markets somehow makes them an expert in digital assets. This industry is moving faster than a Falcon 9. There is too much to learn and not enough hours in a day.
@whooah1979: Yes most scams / schemes do have to move fast to keep ahead of the law and common sense. It has to be mysterious and hard to understand and be fast to play on FOMO alone, or no one would put money into it because they'd understand enough to know it was a bunch of malarkey.
We aren't talking about block validating - that's irrelevant and more evidence you aren't getting the point of what I am saying about core business income, profits and dividends, and investing in that earning potential. That is crypto being transferred around among crypto users for a side service they provide to others in the scheme. Essentially it is someone getting paid in crypto for a service to other scheme participants. It's all just part of the big waste of electricity these schemes perpetuate. It doesn't add value outside of itself like a legit business does.
For ATO's purposes, the ATO is trying to stop people using crypto to avoid tax, and as governments do, take a slice. For tax purposes, that is converted to market value (i.e. real AUD currency). So if you get paid in crypto, in the same manner as if you get paid in chickens instead of money for your work, you have to declare its current monetary conversion in real currency terms to the ATO. It's just a barter transaction like if I pay you 100 chickens for building me a shed:
https://www.ato.gov.au/business/gst/in-detail/rules-for-spec…
Barter transactions are assessable and deductible for income tax purposes to the same extent as other cash or credit transactions.
It has no bearing on whether the "value" of bitcoin on the market has any relationship to its core business income earning potential from producing something of value in the real world for other people, like a real investment does (i.e. yield, P/E ratios??) - you know, like growing food, or making a car, developing a pharmaceutical product, or providing insurance payout if you are in an accident - like businesses you invest in when you buy proper stocks do… and then they get paid for that product or service using a stable currency, and the profit of that venture makes investors a return from that core business they funded / invested in - and if that business looks profitable into the future, people will pay a good price for the shares for the privilege of earning the future income it generates if you want to sell it on… are you catching on to how the real world works yet?!
Irrational exuberance is when people pay way more for the future earning potential then it is realistically worth - i.e. if the whole business is just selling 10 chickens per year for $80, of which the profit is $20 per year with no growth potential… realistically the stock should be worth ~$200-400 or so depending on risk etc. If it gets to $5K, that's a 250 year years purchase (PE ratio), which is crazy but hey, people have been crazy enough to inflate market prices to such levels before mainly because more people keep paying more for the stocks and they are focused on hype about the stock price rather than the real value of what they are actually buying…. now suppose that "investment" doesn't generate any profit… that's what I mean by it has no earning potential / real value.
hopefully anyone else reading on has learned something about what is worth 'investing' in as opposed to what is merely gambling / speculating on market prices.
Irrational exuberance is unfounded market optimism that lacks a real foundation of fundamental valuation, but instead rests on psychological factors.
Uni only teaches you the theory side of things, I did a group assignment for MBA subject, forecasting JB-Hifi share price in 3 years…back then JB Hifi-share price was $5. Our group came up with $9 and we just got a pass….but JB Hifi hit $15 after 3 years…and look at how much it is now?
Share market/ any trading markets are zero sum game….one party loses, another gains…you just need to learn how to be on the right side
as for crypto markets, it's still a young and highly emotional and volatile markets, it doesn't mean it's gonna take over traditional markets out there, no one knows at the moment…but if there's money flowing there and you could see investing/ trading opportunities, why not get on it? of course with educated analysis not just because some billionaries tweeted crap about the market or some reddit group or hot copper mobs telling you it's gonna go to the moon and happily ever after…
Yeah well I'm also experienced in life too and a shiteload of financial street smarts. Incorrect, investing in businesses is not a zero sum game.
If I establish a business and list it as part of a capital raising strategy, that is a decision I make, to sell an interest in that businesses' future earning potential (you know, dividend, income, value), but to suit my needs now. Then I turn my freed up capital and business acumen into a succesful venture and we all win, generate productivity, earn income relative to our level of initial investment. The share price can sit idle but we all make money. As it's earning potential increases, you can sell out to suit your needs and cash in on that earning potential. That's an investment.
Bitcoin is an empty vessel for transporting perceived currency value. It isn't productive, it doesnt make a profit, that's the difference. It's nothing but inflated capital price for a made up concept, in the hopes someone will inflate it more when you later sell it.
It's not going to take over anything and smart investment experts all know it. I have never denied people will make money out of it along the way, so get on it if you dare, but at the end of the day, it will eventually end badly for plenty of people at each correction / dip.
It may take years, maybe decades, but all bubbles eventually pop
Sir Bitcoin is Casino
Zoom out
lol this is a crash?
You must be new to bitcoin
Last 24hrs: -0.28%
Last week: -8.15%
Last month: +46.49%
Last 3 months: +142%
Last 6 months: +320%
Last 1 year: +423%
What a crash!!!
Wouldn't it depend on when they bought in?
Not really.
At worst they are down around 8%-10%.
In the crypto world that is nothing.
And a loss (or a profit) are only relevant when realised.
Having said that, if someone felt comfortable 'investing' some of their hard earned $ into crypto, and lost 8% almost immediately (on paper), they may have at least some element of regret or concern.
@GG57: I agree with you but calling it a "crash" is just showing the person is ill-informed of the nature of this market.
Last 24hrs: -0.28%
Last week: -8.15%
Last month: +46.49%
Last 3 months: +142%
Last 6 months: +320%
Last 1 year: +423%
And today all it has to drop 100% to reach 0.
Why did it take off?
A bunch of wales dumped a stack of bitcoin into the market on Sunday & Tuesday, most likely because there were large 'short' orders (betting the price would go down) expiring at the end of this month. Similar thing happened end of last month when price went from 40k down to 30k .. but then quickly went back up to 50k+ in the next month
Based on the price over the last month it's still in the black. You'd be crapping your pants if you were an AGL shareholder.
AGL shareholder here haha
Me too.
Have gone against my own mantra of "never catch a falling knife" and my hands are slashed to pieces. I think it will be 3+ years before the sun shines again. At least there is a dividend stream.
Thats it, it was my first stock market investment that I thought was safe bet.
@Hvrd: It's a big company.
They have a plan.
They are taking the hard medicine of writing off the "value" of the crap contracts they entered into for solar and wind (punishment for getting in early). It should improve when Liddel PS(?) finally closes.
They appear to have a reasonable idea of what their income streams will be over the next few years.
Diversification of a portfolio is a wonderful thing. I'm 30% in the red with AGL. It makes up only 5% of the portfolio so I can afford to wait for them to cook the books enough to make it appear like they are growing again.
Once PayPal got on board on cryptocurrency, I am convinced that Bitcoin is now here to stay.
Wait till apple develops and launches phones with crypto wallets…. then we're going places
Wait until the world realises it is a big waste of resources, already more energy than New Zealand or Argentina - regardless of how it is produced (still mostly coal) it still takes embodied energy to create solar panels and computer chips and keep the ledger running - its one big giant environmental disaster that is an unnecessary waste of good energy. Queue regulation… queue protests, and cancel culture….
CRASH
Save the environment - kill off bitcoin
kekw, so you are saying banks and visa don't take energy?
From what I have read, Banks and visa provide useful services on a massively larger scale then bitcoin. For far far more efficiency. Ffs not even in the same league.
Bitcoin is processing an absolute pittance of the useful transactions for barter, mainly for shady dark web deals, the rest is just self-perpetuating trades of bitcoin itself for the punters.
Even if we presume trading Bitcoin amongst each other is somehow useful (a big presumption?!), the average energy consumption for one single Bitcoin transaction in 2020 was allegedly 741 kilowatt-hours, so 100,000 Bitcoin transactions is 74,100,000 kWh. This was significantly more compared to the cumulative 100,000 VISA transactions with only an energy consumption of 149 kilowatt-hours. 74,100,000 / 149 = Bitcoin is 497,315 times more energy hungry per transaction than VISA!!!
https://www.statista.com/statistics/881541/bitcoin-energy-co…
Another source estimates it as 330,000 times. https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption/ either way it is massive.
Bitcoin processes 4.6 transactions per second. Visa does around 1,700 transactions per second on average - for way way less energy usage.
"The current Bitcoin block generation time is 10 minutes; i.e., every ten minutes, a new block is mined. In ten minutes (600 seconds), Bitcoin can average around 2,759.12 transactions based on previous assumptions. In other words, the Bitcoin blockchain can currently guarantee only 4.6 transactions per second."
It therefore also has a scalability problem - without major structural changes, each with their drawbacks, Bitcoin literally could not be the currency of the future because it couldn't handle the volume of payments made like visa / mastercard / banks do. The slow speed of the network and inefficiency by design of energy use means it can't get to these heights as the currency of the future you all claim.
Crypto is using more power than most countries in the world for doing f… all !!!!!!!!
Damn - people, wake up!!!!!
you did not see the big picture, virtual mining cost electricity mostly renew energy. Real mining damaged the earth beyond repair!
No, you do not see the big picture.
Real mining actually produces / releases energy we have used to build modern society. Now we will graduate to better renewables as we advance in technology, which wouldn't have happened unless we mined real mining. Like it or hate it, it was a necessary part of our technological maturing as we advance to better things.
Bitcoin just wastes huge amounts of energy - regardless of how it is produced. Even solar and wind is not free - embodied energy, materials and ultimately and waste goes into producing the panels and blades etc. It is also a completely furfy that most crypto mining is renewable energy - bitcoin miners that whatever cheap energy they can get as it is all a numbers game. I have met people from large scale crypto mining groups, all they care about is cheapest energy - which in many regions is usually fossil fueled, and can be on a scale that'd make any greenie cry if they saw it first hand.
Sorry to burst your bubble but I'm well informed and have exposure to how this stuff works. I see is the big picture alright - that's why I'm raising the alarm.
@MrFrugalSpend: I support bitcoin because it decentralize this centralize world, where the supreme power can create war at will, control everything under it government. I don't care about it value, it can go up or down. Money printing is monopoly, this bitcoin will compete it, to make our world fairer. Mining is small problem, environment impact still minimum, compare to WAR, nuclear power will destroy everything!
Because Bitcoin is pure speculation.
It has no underlying value except what people are willing to pay for it. If people aren't willing to pay what price someone is asking for it then the person asking will have to lower their price. You can't use it to make anything physical and it pays no future income. As far as I'm currently aware you cannot loan Bitcoin and earn interest on the lending. Then it might start to have an underlying value.
Bitcoin cannot be used on it's own to produce something else (ie resources/oil/gas). It has no use except for exchange (unlike Gold, Silver, Diamonds, etc.). These assets ultimately have floor prices because they have other uses, such as heating a home, making computer chips, cooking food that mean they have some base form of inherent value.
Bitcoin in my mind is ultimately worthless. A Bitcoin is simply a large unique number in computer software which follows a pattern. It is not government backed legal tender like dollars or euros, so there is no person/government issuing it who agrees to pay back an amount it was sold for (ie. bank notes). You can trade a $20 bank note for $20 worth of value. The fiat currency $ note itself doesn't cost $20 to make but it's a store of $20 worth of value that a government is willing to return to you on presentation of the note at a bank. The $20 note can be loaned and interest charged on it. The government can borrow to print enough money to repay your $20. As long as you think Australia will be a stable country then you can rely on it's currency. The government can charge taxes to its residents to pay back debts on borrowing money. Therefore the money has underlying value based on the interest earned to loan it and the taxation (productivity) collected on loaning it.
With Bitcoin who are you relying on for its value? Purely the person willing to pay something for it. If tomorrow, everyone buying bitcoin came to the conclusion it's worthless then it's worthless. It is 100% speculation in that sense. There is no guarantee anyone is going to pay you back what you paid for it.
Some will argue Bitcoin is in limited supply. Any system can be developed to produce a finite set of random numbers. Something being in limited supply in itself doesn't make it valuable. The amount of stars each sitting on their own coordinates in the sky visible to the naked eye is limited. It doesn't mean being able to view stars in the night sky is a store of value or is worth anything.
I don't really understand why people say purchasing Bitcoin is investing. You aren't investing in anything. You are speculating that someone else will pay more or give you greater value back in goods or services for this random number than you paid for it. Simple as that. Why are some people shocked when its "price" goes down? It's purely that people were selling at a lower value than they were yesterday. Why? Who knows. It has no actual real world value so they sold because they felt it was the time to sell.
Bitcoin is also the ultimate pyramid scheme. It can only go up in value until the person who paid the most is left holding it when the house of cards falls down. When the supply runs out and the price gets to some real world maximum high then others will start to sell. As I understand it there is only a limited supply of "coins" numbers that can be generated or "mined". When that happens people may start to sell. As more people sell it will fall all the way back to 0 because that's actually what it's worth. It's made up. It's not "worth" anything because it has no underlying value. It's not actually worth anything in the true meaning of the word.
All the best to the speculators in pseudo-random numbers. I wish you the best.
Why can I only give this one + vote?
Well said!
Sadly most people that are piling into BitCoin have no idea what they are "investing" in. They are just attracted by the hype and apparently never-ending rise in value.
The value is in the ledger being stored across the blockchain. No one can print more and fudge the books like they are doing with currencies across the world. There is no inflation or quantitative easing.
The value is in how valueless world currencies that are not based on any commodity or resource are. The USD isn't backed by gold, or even oil really anymore. It's backed by the fact it's THE world currency and very few want to rock the boat by saying they have 0 faith in that system. When the federal reserve printed 25% of the ALL USD in circulation just in 2020 - many people are starting to wise up to the fact the USD may as well be monopoly money. It's just a lot of people have faith in it which is why it has value (that is slipping everyday). There wasn't a 25% inflation rate, nor was there a 25% decrease in the amount of labor that USD could purchase. So where is that devaluing of the currency? Really, I'd like to know.
Apart from speculation, the driving force behind the value of BTC is how people can see the man behind the curtain of world currencies fudging the books to maintain corporate welfare, while devaluing the cost of labor.
Is BTC massively overvalued? Most likely. Is the USD? Most likely too.
The value is in the ledger being stored across the blockchain
Even accountants don't want to store their transactions in massive ledgers some how they created the WeWork of Accounting.
No one can print more and fudge the books like they are doing with currencies across the world. There is no inflation or quantitative easing.
No bail outs during recessions which will mean we're stuffed when the next recession comes along. That is why US got off the gold standard because it basically strangles the economy in times of recession.
When the federal reserve printed 25% of the ALL USD in circulation just in 2020
I can assure you it isn't printed. If you check on Amazon most staples haven't gone up by 25% because QE is targeted. The banks might be awash with cash, they still need to find people who they can lend it to and get their money back.
Notice how RBA did $200bn of QE and your bread didn't suddenly go up in price overnight or shrank?
Except that the electrical cost of running the ledger with people mining it because its value is higher is growing and growing ridiculously as its value grows - with the latest spike, crypto uses more power than most countries. It's a massive waste of electricity and an environmental disaster.
By design, if it grows as much as people like to hope, it would cripple the world with energy use as more people would mine it….
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56012952
Forget your solar, and Tesla batteries and cars, if you invest in bitcoin you are an environmental hazard. Elon Musk is a hypocrite in this regard.
It's not sustainable to grow to the huge amounts people claim.
BTC is worth a lot more than the countries it uses more power than, take Argentina for instance.
As long as it's profitable, it's sustainable to maintain the cost of energy with reward profit from mining. This is why no one can buy a GPU at a decent price anymore. Everyone and their dog is generating ETH.
Also as renewable energy takes over the cost of electricity to validate transactions becomes insignificant along with environmental concerns. We're possibly on the cusp on fusion becoming a viable renewable energy.
@studenl0an "BTC is worth a lot more than the countries it uses more power than, take Argentina for instance."
What an obnoxious statement. New Zealand is another Country it uses more power than. It's catching Norway.
The dozens of countries it uses more energy then house people, power their homes, cook their food, power their businesses that make things that allow society to function.
Bitcoin isn't "worth" jack sh!t. It could go away tomorrow and life would go on perfectly normally throughout the world.
Bitcoin supporters clearly have a hard time distinguishing between real value / worth, in terms of productive economic output / income, as opposed to the price of a bitcoin based on the latest trade to another wood duck.
It's a made up concept that consumes huge energy because a huge number of punters participate and shuffle money around.
No different to the gambling industry but even more wasteful for the amount of participants.
What a huge waste. So much energy, just to facilitate a giant get rich quick scheme. Horrible.
@MrFrugalSpend: Ok so your arguments can be broken down to:
1) It's bad for the environment.
2) It's not worth anything.
2) It's gambling.
1) So is mining, refining oil and emitting carbon to generate the value of every world currency. Without carbon generation, there is stagnation. To say that BTC is bad because it uses electricity but not put that into perspective of how other currencies get their value is applying 'rules for thee but not for me' when it comes to applying the argument. How do you think oil gets its value? We burn it to get it out of the ground, burn it to move it to the refinery, burn it again to refine into all the distillates and then we burn it again to move those distillates around. Then we burn it in all of our vehicles to move from our house to our work. That is super inefficient also, but it's how the world keeps turning without plunging us into a dark age.
Power generation is going to renewables and BTC mining isn't profitable on non-ASIC miners which are incredibly efficient. ETH not so much, but at least with ETH they are democratising who can generate ETH and not just for people who can outlay the massive initial capital.
2) It's not worth anything. Due to the ledger being stored on the blockchain as I explained in the earlier post - BTC gets its worth as a currency that can't be manipulated by a single government. The books can't be fudged, the treasury department can't pressure the federal reserve to devalue it like they can with USD. Then there's businesses that use and accept BTC for goods/services, or use blockchain technology for their own internal processes. You're welcome to read up on how businesses are using blockchain and ledger technology.
3) So is every single form of investing, but you said it's not worth anything - so how can you really gamble with something that isn't worth anything? It's obviously worth something, and that figure at the moment is more than 60k AUD per coin.
@studentl0an: You're wasting electricity trying to convert noconers. Save your time for people that aren't perma bears.
I never said that fiat currencies were backed by physical assets. They are backed by the citizens in a country going to work, paying taxes, borrowing money and maintaining the population. They are backed by economic activity using that currency and a government's ability to issue more of it.
Bitcoins value is not in a database of transactions. I believe those transactions are anonymous. If someone gave me the bitcoin ledger in a large file what value does it have? It's a bunch of records of transactions. The Westpac bank has 100 years of bank records. There isn't much value in there, especially once it's anonymised. The value would be in able to identify where/who money went from/to. It's worth probably a few dollars for novelty value. Value is in the eye of the beholder I guess. If you think the ledger holds value then that's fine but I don't see it.
That 25% of USD generally went into propping up company prices on Wall Street. This 25% was lent out to stimulate economic activity which in turn was reinvested into the labour market and asset purchases. The purpose of this injection was to maintain confidence in the US economy. A government has a responsibility to maintain confidence in the currency and the economy of a country so that the currency is trusted. This is why the US government pursued QE1 and QE2. America is in a bad financial state that doesn't mean all world currencies are inherently bad.
America has suffered economic decline now for two decades. As bitcoin is traded in USD then you are risking some part of your holding right there. I think it's fine to say I don't trust the USD. Again, I don't see why that means you should trust bitcoin. What happens when people who hold bitcoin lose confidence in bitcoin? Who is going to prop it up? It's not backed by anything. At least the USD is backed by the federal reserve.
Fiat is literally backed by the economic activities of that country and also TAXES.
Bitcoin is literally backed by nothing.
Wish I can give you more like but most people will just skimp past your comment.
Bitcoin cannot be used on it's own to produce something else
Neither can cash. Neither can gold, for that matter, other than being used for jewelry, very occasional dentistry, and electrical connectors.
Gold has lots of functions due to special properties. "Gold conducts electricity, does not tarnish, is very easy to work, can be drawn into wire, can be hammered into thin sheets, alloys with many other metals, can be melted and cast into highly detailed shapes, has a wonderful colour etc"
Cash has a stable value in economies where it is used for barter of products and services. Bitcoin is way too volatile for this - So the few people that are accepting it, aren't pricing things long term in bitcoin and running their business inputs / outputs in it, they have to constantly reference another countries' fiat currency and do the conversion to use it in trade and update the pricing. Then just charge a fee for conversion processing it onto the market, and just swap it for cash in their operating countries' currency. They could do the same with anything "today it will be 100 barrels of oil as the price is x" then offload it for actual cash.
so you think stock market is not pyramid scheme? do your research kid!
Less than 6 months ago BTC was only worth US $10,000. The drop of $5000 over the last few days is pretty typical for a volatile asset. Like all investments, Bitcoin carries a lot of risk. It could be $100,000 by the end of 2021 or it could be worth $10,000 again.
I suppose you could choose any range of dates or period of time and talk about those prices, to support any argument.
A bit like horse racing; you can always find a reason to bet on your choice of runner in each race.
horse racing is a good analogy and is definitely not investing.
value store
volatile asset
🤦♀️
this aint a crash
"I put all my savings in Bitcoin because someone here said it was a value store."
This forum should not be mistaken for professional investment advice. You will get wildly different perspectives, including "all into BitCoin". You should really try and understand what you are investing in and the associated risks.
There is nothing stored in bitcoin at all, literally nothing.
Every cent that went 'in' actually went straight into someone else's bank account - probably spent on a nice lambo or a new house.
That money is never coming back. The only money you will ever see back for your bitcoin is from the next guy looking to 'invest' - in your lambo!
There are multiple reasons for it
1) Bitcoin provides no intrinsic value.
2) It's value is derived by hype. People pump money in, value goes up, people dump the coin to make a profit. Those left behind cop the losses.
3) It is not a value store. Its more like buying a lottery ticket.
4) Get professional financial advice instead of listening to a 12yo.
F2Pool (largest BTC mining pool) sold off some of their coins, lots of people over leveraged bet on crypto futures and panicked when the price dipped which caused a domino effect. Crypto futures were liquidated, this is a healthy correction.
Most important thing to note is that institutions are still buying and not "dumping". Square Inc. just bought another $170 million in BTC yesterday. MicroStrategy bought another $1 billion. Btw Tesla didn't "lose" $15 billion, they bought BTC back in January when the price was around $40k, now it's $62k. You do the math …
It's amusing to see everyone so smug about a "crash" which is actually a 2% gain from last week. The stock market dropped for a week straight and no one says anything lol
Statements such as "…a 2% gain from last week…", be they related to the stock market or to Bitcoin, are largely irrelevant unless people are selling or have financed to buy. The "value" is only relevant when the item is sold.
Apparently Bitcoin was as low as $48,209.92 earlier today, and now appears to be at $50,825.77, and seems to have been all over the place in the last day or so.
I think most would agree that Bitcoin is, at the very least, a relatively volatile place to "invest".
24 hour low: $60,791.94
24 hour high: $65,300.00
https://www.btcmarkets.net/ (as of 1:40pm 25/02/21).
If you want to use AUD, correct. I was basing my comments on:
https://www.coindesk.com/price/bitcoin (with USD selected).
My understanding is (happy to be corrected) that Bitcoin is priced against USD as the primary value?
If so, does that mean that "investors" from Australia also adopt a Foreign Exchange Currency risk?
@GG57: Everything on the world market is priced in USD because they will war against you if you try otherwise. In 2015 NATO went to war in Libya because Gadafi tried going against the petrodollar. He dared try to sell oil in a currency that wasn't USD. People will say otherwise, that it was just a coincidence that Gadafi wanted to get rid of the petrodollar and that war in Libya was only to get rid of a dictator (how many times have we been told that story now?).
'Liberated' Libya today has open slave markets. You can purchase a harem of sex slaves at one stall and a coke at the next. But they still sell their oil in USD, thanks USA!
This is why BTC is gaining value.
@studentl0an: Does that mean that "investors" from Australia also adopt a Foreign Exchange Currency risk?
@GG57: The risk is always there, as it is with every commodity/resource on the world market.
But imagine this - if there is a massive 'correction' of the USD after the US deficit spending of 2020 and our dollar trends towards parity, what happens to BTC then? What happens to USA and world investors when they realise their USD holdings are losing purchasing power everyday?
In the past they have moved their money into gold and other 'safe' assets such as beachfront real estate. I believe those investors have seen the writing on the wall of what's to come and and have already diversified their USD into BTC/gold/real estate and more. I believe this is why BTC has has a big rise over the last few months (losing confidence in USD and Biden's plans to ramp up the already high levels of corporate welfare). I could be wrong and that BTC maybe massively pumped and about to be dumped, but my feeling is that the dips we are seeing now are massive investors trying to get the price to tank so many little guys panic sell, and they can purchase it all back for pennies on the dollar - further funneling capital to the ultra rich.
I could be wrong and BTC could be massively overpriced. But if that's the case then I believe that is the case for the USD also. Maybe it's better to save AUD now and purchase liquid assets if/when AUD reaches parity with USD. Maybe it's best to diversify to minimise risk - and BTC is now seen as somewhere to divest into.
@studentl0an: Regardless if BTC is massively overpriced, I'm just pointing out the two risk elements that "investors" are accepting.
The value of BTC can go in either direction.
The value of USD can go in either direction.
And those values can go in opposite directions to the other.
That might be a win, it might be a loss.
But it is more risk than investing in the ASX.
@GG57: For the reasons I've gone over in previous posts, I don't believe the USD can go in either direction. It's going in one direction, down. They don't manufacture anything there anymore, they are spending a massive amount of deficit spending and the petrodollar is on the way out. The USA was a net exporter of oil over the last few years but now with new policies they will return to being an importer as they shut down their shale refineries.
Unlike the USA our federal reserve doesn't take orders from the government. They won't just print money to match the USA levels of spending (unless we are a vassal state and do so on the orders of the USA). In the past we didn't, in 2012 our dollar went over parity as the US deficit spent their way out of the sub prime mortgage crisis.
@studentl0an: You have some sound reasoning behind your belief.
But there is certainly no guarantee.
@GG57: Thanks, and yeah - there's no guarantees.
If USA goes to war against Iran for instance, everything I've written is moot. The USA can take all that oil and sell it to the world to pay for all their deficit spending.
If USA says NASA found a way to mine asteroids and they're bringing back tonnes of platinum with every rocket then that's another way too. Much better than war lol.
@studentl0an: So, there is a risk in trading in currencies.
There is an increased risk in "investing" in Bitcoin, if you are buying with AUD.
@GG57: I disagree about the increased risk if purchasing in AUD with the current state of world affairs. I think it's riskier to leave money in a savings account where it's losing money compared to CPI, than it is to diversify savings into many investments (BTC being one).
On that note, money invested should always be money that you're willing to lose. Don't invest what you can't lose and that's true for all investing.
@studentl0an: You seem to have a sensible approach to your investments, including making a risk assessment to support those decisions.
The risks still exist; in your assessment, you have decided the probability and severity of the risks and made your decision.
I'm not sure that some others have even considered these risks.
@studentl0an: Do you work in infosec?
You are just repeating internally inconsistencies you've heard else where.
Think it's riskier to leave money in a savings account where it's losing money compared to CPI, than it is to diversify savings into many investments (BTC being one)
On that note, money invested should always be money that you're willing to lose. Don't invest what you can't lose and that's true for all investing.
It's riskier to put money in a savings account than invest into many investments including gambling but don't use money you cant lose. But you can't put that in savings because it's riskier than investing…
@deme: The only inconsistency I see is you telling us the price has been crashing for the last few days when it's actually up on just 9 days ago.
Are you a bag holder?
How can I be a bag holder when it's increasing in value? 🤔
Wake me up when BTC goes to $20k, then you can tell me "I told you so". Until then I'm +% and the FUD is just free amusement for me. I still enjoy going back and reading the previous threads when Bitcoin was at $40k.
How much are you holding and at what cost price? I'll be sure to let you know when it hits 20k
Dec 2013 it crashed from $1300 to $300
Dec 2017 crashed 28k to 5k
Dec 2020 it crashed 53k to 37k.
What do you learn from this?
That BTC will go to USD 268K before it crashes?
That would be a sad environmental disaster. It's already using more power than New Zealand and Argentina…
Please stop killing the planet bitcoin
That the whole economic system is a farce and value is now created out of nothing with no tangible value nor secure fundamentals
Remember this guy?
Miami Mayor Francis Suarez
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerhuang/2021/02/01/miamis-ma…
https://www.facebook.com/FoxBusiness/videos/500013274317778/
Now they have this.
https://www.arabianbusiness.com/banking-finance/458881-dubai…
https://www.zawya.com/mena/en/press-releases/story/Dubais_IB…
The smart money doesn't care if the spot is USD 3k, 9k, 20k, 40k or 58k. They'll take all your BTC if you give them the chance.
its not a crash…its a normal correction. If you look at the 2017 boom, what we just had was the equivalent to the 2nd 20% dip before the next parabolic move
I've increased my position significantly in the past 2 days…lets see what happens in the coming weeks
What happens in the coming weeks is irrelevant, unless you decide to sell.
no shit
Thats a ridiculous statement, if it corrects to near zero its not irrelevant to the "investor" if they hold.
How much are you holding?
Why would you put all your savings into only one asset? Bitcoin is highly volatile. It's going to jump up and down by a lot.
So it's not a value store?
Well it is a value store. But don't put everything on it. Same as you don't put all your money on only one horse
🤦♀️
Price has probably fallen due to withdrawal of buying support by OP..
Up 2.5. % now… OP back in market?
Down another 3%… wish the OP would start buying again
LOL this post makes me laugh. Its not crashing its correcting, people have some really "interesting" views on how markets work, namely that everything should go up in perpetuity. Maybe thats because of government YoY Growth narrative to determine "success" and the amount of currency manipulation that has been going on the last 20-30 years that is causing upward pressures on cost of living and liquidity value of cash etc and their view is everything needs to go up to offset inflation. Always band aid and or reactionary responses though while the system becomes more and more skewed until term "free market" is laughable.
Sound advice or out of touch with 21st century technology?
https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/munger-recommends-not-buyi…
Lol. These old investors have been saying this since 2009. And they have been proven wrong over and over. Extremely embarrassingly wrong. And they are still saying it.. lol.
These old investors got rich by learning to make things. They look at bitcoin and can't find the underlying value.
It has jumped in value from 23k AUD to 70k AUD within 6 months what did you expect there is always a pull back
@modiika: Sorry, MLM and WSB is too scammy for my taste.