Is the fact we have a third world NBN the fault of the LNP or the voters?
Something else?
Maybe the blame should be laid at the feet of the ‘swing’ voters who got the LNP over the line, since the rusted ons (typically old people) won’t ever change
Do you blame the poor NBN on the LNP or the millions of people that voted for them?
Boogerman on 12/09/2020 - 11:13
Poll Options
- 756Liberal National Party
- 105Voters for the Liberal National Party
- 88Other (see comments)
Comments
@ozbking: Jimmy the thing you forget with this equal unequal issue, is that with FTTP it took 6 years before it started to roll out. Then when it did it kept getting delayed. Our exchange was over a year late from the original date given. Every 3 months it got extended out.
If it stayed like it was we would probably be, nationally, half way there.
So yep those ½ would have great speed, but the other half would have still been on dial up or ADSL.
Install wise the last connection, required a lot more time. 1 Node is easier than 30-60 connections to the home.
Would Labor have sped things up.
We dont know. Those for Labor believe so, which is fair enough, but reality is they werent in power and as such we will never honestly know.
And yes no debate on FTTP as the best. Of course it is.
We do know that when they were in, it was already delayed. Maybe they would have caught up but honestly we would never know.
@RockyRaccoon: Agreed we will never know. The idea of 90% FTTP just makes it sound it would like it would be more reliable for our work, rather than the patchy installation we have now. It makes it harder for large companies to bring services (e.g. Google Stadia, Windows Virtual Desktop) to everyone with a more consistent quality.
There has always been an issue with cost, execution, and uptake. Also the recent change to more FTTC installations would also affect things - which may or may not be included in the original FTTP plan.
@ozbking: Yes FTTC changes things. At least those who were in these later installs got something a little better.
If after 7 years they only got FTTN that would have been the pits.
cheers
@ozbking: Google Stadia is entertainment and not necessary.
Windows Virtual Desktop does not require a large bandwidth.
@Bystander: Google Stadia (or Netflix, or Fortnite, or X or Y) might be "entertainment and not necessary" for you.
At this specific point in time.
The whole point of better internet is also about "Future thinking".
Some people see a 12yr old playing Fortnite as a waste of time with no benefit to the economy. I see the potential of the technology behind Fortnite to deliver a pathway to better tele-health via video in the future with collaboration not just between patient & GP, but now also bringing in multiple specialists (from around the world) who can live stream your MRI results to provide better care.
Or the latest version of the Unreal engine, which could enable visualisation of seismic surveys for the mining industry so they don't have to blow up sacred sites just to roughly know where to rip open the ground.
There are so many things we have now that were not even thought about 10-20 years ago. Why hamstring ourselves with something we know will enable us to do and provide better things in the future?
@cimrak: I don't see how anyone can classify "Google Stadia (or Netflix, or Fortnite, or X or Y)" as an essential service worthy of taxpayer $. It simply isn't so.
better tele-health via video in the future with collaboration not just between patient & GP, but now also bringing in multiple specialists (from around the world) who can live stream your MRI results to provide better care.
Video collaboration could be done before NBN. And tbh I don't think many people have been live streaming MRI's to their homes. At some point in the future there might be a need for this.
seismic surveys for the mining industry
Businesses that need high speed internet should pay for it. The vast majority of people do not need it.
provide better things in the future
And that's the real point. While our govt has been spending billions on the NBN the real essential services applications for the average user are still unknown. By the time we actually do have a need technology will have evolved and quite possibly the NBN will be outdated. And also by which time private companies would have built their own data infrastructure with private funds.
@Bystander: I think you have the wrong idea about “evolving”. The environment where the evolving happens has to be there for the evolution to start, otherwise, everything stays constant, unless you mean, let other countries first have this environment and we follow later (which we didn’t anyway, since we did start, but backed the wrong technology).
Btw, for video conferencing, the upload is also critical. ADSL and even FTTN, has a much slower upload speed than FTTP. Even now, some participants on my Zoom meetings get broken audio and inconsistent video quality.
The environment where the evolving happens has to be there for the evolution to start
No.
With that sort of thinking we would be spending billions on all sort of pie in the sky "maybe" projects. The internet was working just fine and evolving on it's own before the NBN came along.@Bystander: Yes, we do pay for those pie in the sky projects. That's why we have dark fibre, space flight, FTTP NBN…
Edit: people with vision build the road for others to travel on…
That’s precisely what Turnbull and Murdoch (Fox) wanted to avoid. Limited NBN was all about keeping Murdoch happy. So what if people want fast internet to stream 4K and 8K content? That’s a fair use isn’t it? Also I don’t think they fixed the copper network, they just piggy backed onto it closer to people’s houses.
ok boomer
It doesn't matter that most users don't need gigabit speeds. It matters that those who do have that requirement have the opportunity. It matters that there's an upgrade path for the rest of us in five or 10 years time when we do need it. After spending $50 billion we shouldn't have to pay for the network to be rebuilt in order to upgrade.
Scrolled down, no one has pointed out the obvious (mainly because of the techy users of this site)…
You do realise that parties have more than 1 policy, right?
It's not like voters just get 1 policy, 1 action plan, to make their decisions on. NBN wasn't the be-all and end-all of the election, despite what you may believe because that's what you were focused on. There's many facets to it, and can be largely led by the people who will represent their respective parties. Dislike a politician and how they act, you'll likely vote against them despite their policies alligning with your beliefs. Not to mention the cultural side, or other influences on which party to align to.
Liberal got in because people voted liberal, not because they voted for FTTN. Sorry if that comes as a shock.
In other words, it's LNP's fault and not the voters.
This. NBN wasn't the main election issue at the time. It was one of many and even then it was a minor issue in the grand scheme of things. Seems people forget how unpopular the ALP at the time were with the voters in general due to their internal infighting and other issues. They were badly on the nose.
“ people forget how unpopular the ALP at the time were with the voters in general due to their internal infighting ”
Yet the LNP won the 2016 & 2019 elections. Heck they even outdid Labor with a 3 person government (Abbott-Turnbull-Morrison) instead of 2. They’ve even outdone Labor by a mile with their socialist handouts & trillion$ national debt. The sad part is I bet if you took a poll now people would still rate the LNP as the ‘better economic managers’Well, they do only have to beat people like Shorten or Albanese who have no clue about the real world, never having had a real job.
@Boogerman: Abbott was a journalist, and ran a concrete plant, real jobs. He was PM. Shorten never had a real job an lost an election. So sad.
@irony: And once PM, was shown up for the joke he was & was getting spanked in the polls. No surprise the ‘party that doesn’t knife it’s leaders’ knifed it’s leader
When mainstream media has a preference, aka Murdoch, swaying the minds of the public, unpopularity is synonymous to sabotage.
The ALP did zero favours to themselves by ousting Rudd, Gillard then implementing a carbon tax that she said she never would and then knifing her for Rudd again. Sure Murdoch certainly set his sharks after them but there was already blood in the water from self inflicting wounds.
@Rockets84: The ALP deserve criticism, but the bias means that stumbles by the LNP aren't getting the same treatment. A negative on one side and a void on the other is not balanced reporting.
@scupper: So NewsCorp played no part in Turnball's ousting? Newscorp will turn on the LNP when it suits them. But yes they are biased. It's why I pay very little attention to them.
This is completely false. LNP voters just looked at the NBN policies and decided we want slower internet. /s
Well said. I don't think I will ever agree with all the policies of one party.
Yes.
I’m stuck on FTTN with 40Mbps down and 4-5 drop outs per day. NBN won’t fix drop outs because it’s below the threshold. My NBN was only connected two months ago. I had ADSL running stable at 13Mbps before that. This is what 10 years and over $70 bn gets us? What a joke. I’m also in a mobile phone dead patch so no reliable 4G. Australia Internet is a joke! I’m waiting on a quote for Technology Choice Program. Do these drop outs occur with FTTP. I simply want fast reliable internet. Am I asking too much? I work for an international company relying on video, VPN, Remote Desktop and large file sharing to do my work. What I have now is unreliable. I keep getting dropped out of meetings or have to restart downloads.
Hope you didn't vote LNP.
Labor also took a big cancer package to the last ekection. If you get cancer under the LNP, the average person will be paying five figures due to their cuts.
That's before anyone gets started on the LNP's damage to education.
It is unlikely that you are stuck on FTTN, you can choose to be on FTTP, you just have to ask and pay. The nice people at NBN will then run fibre for you and you can have a drop out free 1000/400m connection if it means enough to you.
https://www.nbnco.com.au/learn/technology-choice-program
….at a cost of $7500 to $15000.
Yeah right.
Yeah, wrong.
Get some people in the street to share the cost and it will be down under $3,000 in no time.
Can't get any interest? Maybe people don't want it FTTP as much as you thought…@irony: Nope. You're wrong.
Source - https://goo.gl/YfbdSv
Standard blurb in NBN's emails. Same as what I got when I obtained an outrageous quote.
"When you pay the quote fee, we will prepare and send you a build quote based on the specific requirements to extend the nbn™ FTTP network to supply fibre to your premises. We do not disclose the design that underpins this quote, as it is commercially sensitive.
To help you make an informed decision whether to proceed with paying the $330.00 quote fee, we want to share some indicative ranges from recent build quotes:
FTTN to FTTP: $6,000 - $30,000
FTTC to FTTP: $6,000 - $10,000
HFC to FTTP: $6,000 - $40,000"Your turn.
@Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Cool,
my turn. You are wrong.
I have done it. The cost was $3,000 per house and I am 800m from the node. I have the invoices, I have FTTP, I am not wrong. I said "get some people in your street to share the cost", you are quoting individual prices. Is it so hard to understand the difference?
NBN call it a "Group Switch" https://www.nbnco.com.au/learn/technology-choice-programOur group had 9 people jointly do TCP FTTN - FTTP, I was the NBN contact for them.
Many groups have done it.
In our area over 100 homes did TCP, typically in groups of 8-12, depending on which copper run from the Node they were on. Cost on average less than $3,000.My advice is talk to your neighbours, work out where the copper runs, talk to people on the loop. Door knock, do flyers form a group and get the cost per person down. Also, you get to know some people in the street, nice.
@irony: Let me guess, you did this prior to November 2019.
A lot of things have changed since then. That includes NBN policy and pricing.
@Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Sure I did it before the pandemic.
And you are right, it would seem prices are changing, they are dropping. The Whirlpool spreadsheet would indicate quite a bit.
The average line is going down and to the left. https://goo.gl/YfbdSv Many prices for FTTN to FTTP are below $6,000 for individual applications.@Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Or I can read a chart, the red line, which is the average, is getting lower over time.
Putting the blame squarely on the LNP is a bit of a simplification of the NBN's issues. MTM is a massive part of the problem but ALP set it up to fail first. Where the blame for the NBN lies it's both the ALP & the LNP. Also ACCC needs to shoulder some of the blame too.
ALP. While their FTTP plan was the right way to go technology wise it was severely under costed & the completion date wasn't even close to realistic. Also the NBN being setup to pay for itself overtime has saddled the company with massive debt and we have to deal with the artificial CVC pricing construct so that NBN can generate good revenue. This inflates the pricing of the NBN end users pay massively. Also the deal to buy Telsra ducts, NBN paid far too much.
LNP. MTM what else to say really. Relaying new copper for FTTN in areas where the copper is badly degraded is just lunacy, these areas should be done with FTTP. NBN is the largest purchaser of copper wiring globally in the last few years. Green fields sites being layed with FTTN is disgraceful too. Or people in metro areas being on Sky Muster an absolute joke.
The ACCC. The ACCC was the one that pushed for the 121 Points Of Interconnect (POI's). The original design was far less. This again adds to the cost that end users pay. The ISP's need to pay for links to all 121 POI's to have complete national coverage or they need to use a third party to provide that connectivity. Before the traffic is even sent over the ISP's network then to the wider internet in general. It's cheaper to have fewer but faster links. The ACCC has failed to act on NBN's scam of the Technology Choices Program where users can upgrade their FTTN to FTTP. The time & cost of just getting a quote out of this program is crazy and then the final cost is ludicrous. I think I saw that the average cost quoted for TCP is in the $15K ball park. NBN won't allow a street or a number of households next to each other to do a TCP together either or instead of FTTP won't allow FTTC. The NBN don't want to offer the TCP and they make it as difficult and financially prohibitive as possible to get it.
TCP costs are significantly less than $15k unless you're far from anything remotely close.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vS4A3OuN9GCI…
I'll clarify that TCP number was for FTTN to FTTP. According to the sheet the average is $11.78K. So I wasn't far of the mark going from memory. For HFC to FTTP it's $15.19K so I was on the money there. FTTC to FTTP is $3.7K and that drags the average overall right down. I hadn't seen those number before.
NBN did not 'buy' the pit and pipe network from telstra they bought the copper network and rent the pit and pipe from telstra with the responsibility of maintaining it for them. That means even though NBN is renting it any damage needs to be repaired by NBN at NBNs expense
Thanks for the clarification. But if they are maintaining them they pretty bought them with out actually owning them. Still a crappy deal.
Yes it is and it wasn't even the worse deal NBN "negotiated"
This is replicating itself in Aust being dictated to by the US in that now we are spending billions more for an inferior 5G product.
both
Forget the NBN and focus on satellite internet which will actually connect the world as it should be. That is what politicians should be selling now. Then by the time it’s good to go they will have the infrastructure planned properly - yeah right!!
OTA will never be as reliable or have the speeds of fibre.
NBN satalite is a joke also btw. Starlink looks OK though.
LNP made NBN a political football, instead of a national infrastructure program.
I've seen no politician argue this much on rails/tunnels/roads programs, but LNP made it a political stunt and we've ended up with garbage.It's facing tough competition from 5G, even possibly Elon Musk's Skylink may compete with it soon.
I've seen no politician argue this much on rails/tunnels/roads programs
Because we only build that sort of infrastructure when there is a clear need. There was no need for the NBN.
5G & Skylink & others are examples of why the govt should never have become involved. Business will provide services with private funds when there is a clear demand and profit. And they frequently do so at a cheaper price to the consumer.
Stop talking about something you have no clue on.
Pfft
"No clue". Clearly you have no clue of just how informed I am on the subject.Then again I don't expect any support here. I know I'm talking to crowd of self interested individuals.
@Bystander: You think you have a clue when you think wireless is the future of reliable, high-demand Internet connectivity? Don't make me laugh.
Yeah no. I remember seeing these type of arguments back in the day on delimiter comments.
You don't need it, that's fine. Please don't appear to speak for the entirety of the nation when you barely know the subject matter.
Don't know if you've realised but you're talking to a brick wall.
YouThe vast majority of people don't need it.Fixed it for you.
@Bystander: The vast majority of people need fast reliable internet more than ever.
How are we supposed to compete on a global digital stage when we can't even work remotely properly.
Internet infrastructure is the information backbone of the country and is the difference in another 100 years of growth or stagnation.
The LNP made their position clear on what they were doing well in advance of the vote.. I blame the people who voted them in..There will be a bunch of people on the board who will vote that it is the LNP fault because they were among the people that voted them in and can't admit they they screwed up.
That being said, even if they weren't voted in at the time, I imagine coming in later, they would have always found a way to screw up the NBN even in retrospect
Correct on all points
My house is in an NBN trial area and as such we've had FTTP since 2011(?). I truly feel bad for those that waited a long time for the mix match rubbish that came out later….. and all at greater expense than FTTP all round would've cost.
LNP were voted to lead and they bungled the nbn. Voters also should not have turned their back on ALP over what now looks like universal political pettiness
A lot of problems with the NBN stem from the designers. When it was pure FTTP there were bad designs in place. If a street had 100 houses at survey time then they put in 100 ports. Then a few granny flats would pop up and a port or two would go faulty then the street was short of ports and new cables sometimes more than 500m long had to be run to the nearest available port as that was seen as the cheapest option.
On FTTN roll out the nodes were meant to be no further than 40m away from the pillar (what distributes the signal to the houses) except that are a lot that are 100m to 800m from the pillar. Then it has to travel several hundred meters from pillar to premises so what about be a max of 500m to provide a decent signal is now 1.3km+. That's not even mentioning the extremely poor condition of that aged infrastructure also each node is capable of only supplying a total of one gigabit with up to 386 ports in it so at peak use that 1 gigabit it being shared among hundreds of premises.
HFC would have been a decent choice if the existing networks were taken care of by they're previous owners (Optus and Telstra had they're own and both were in poor condition when nbn bought them) after possibly billions of dollars spent remediating it those areas will actually get a good service now.
Fttc is mostly a good technology except yet again it's being done as cheaply as possible so installations are being done as "efficiently" as possible causing subpar services for customers. And yet again ports are being asaigned to the wrong premises that are longish distances away meaning they have to go onto the poor condition old copper
When it was pure FTTP there were bad designs in place. If a street had 100 houses at survey time then they put in 100 ports.
What?
NBN design spec for FTTP was to deploy 2.5Gbps/1.25Gbps GPONs, each with 32 ports, and only allocate 24 of them to allow for expansion.
I will never vote for the libs after they butchered the NBN. A national failure that the country will have to live with for decades.
Every one knew their plans to change it from a national standard to the mixed technology method. The people who voted them in are the problem. We were warned well in advance.. but people were scared of boat people and the carbon tax. Lib voters got swindled by Tony Abbott.. the Ralph Wiggum of politics.
I don't care if Labor turn into true Marxism or CCP levels of dictatorship. I'll still vote for them over the libs.
“ Tony Abbott.. the Ralph Wiggum of politics.”
Brilliant! Ralph has a heart though.
I don't blame anyone. Works perfectly fine for me and I'm not on FTTP
When files and srteaming start needing higher bandwidth and the suburbs around you are able to upgrade to 1000mbps, but you're stuck on a capped 40mbps FTTN, or 100mbps HFC service. Then you might think differently.
I try not to worry/complain about what may or may not happen in the future. Fairly certain technology will keep up with my requirements. So far it has for many decades
But it’s not now. Sure you may be ok but there are people out there that can’t even get a decent phone in their house because NBN has killed traditional landlines and cellular coverage is patchy - in a lot of new developments too. It’s third world. This is 2020 when people are being encouraged to work from home and this is not possible for many.
@gimme: I know that. I didn’t mean to beat you up but saying everything is ok because I am ok is the kind of thing that changes nothing and comes across as though you don’t care about things not being done properly and fairly for everyone. It even says that when things are not ok for you that nobody else should care about that which is how we end up with problems like this in the first place - kinda the point of the OP. Have a nice day :)
@MontyMacaw: I didn't say any of that. All I said was that my connection is ok and I'm happy. I know NBN bashing is a sport but 90% of ppl I know are also happy with their connection.
Here's the back of the napkin maths the pollies used to work out our NBN requirements. According to Telstra most bandwidth is used for streaming video. Netflix needs 25mbps per 4k stream. So even on a 100mbps connection you can already get 3x 4k down streams per household. For a lot of people they only have 2-3 4k capable displays in their household anyway.
How much do you think households are willing to pay for faster speeds? Even if I could get gigabit NBN I'm not paying $400/month for it. That's almost $5000/year. I don't even want to spend $100/month for a 100mbps plan. Not just a case of building it and they will come.
Where is the option for both? I tried to educate a lot of people around me before the LNP were elected the first time with the promise to destroy the NBN - most of them were fools and voted for the LNP regardless. So I blame both.
When Abbott came in he should have killed it and let private providers install fibre. We would have ended up with faster (and possibly cheaper) internet in the cities, and rubbish in rural areas, like in the US. Verizon provides 200mpbs for US$40/m where fibre is available.
Pretty straight forward, it was the people who voted them in.
Both parties took it to the election, and both said what they planned to do. The LNP were up front with what they would deliver, win the election, and went with the MTM style approach. The fact that this option was sub par is not their fault - it’s the people who voted for it.
Obviously there were other issues people voted for during this election, but I think it’s fair to say the NBN was one of the bigger points of difference that year.
Ultimately I blame the short sighted approach of 3-year terms of government. I think major infrastructure projects like the NBN should be looked at with some kind of alternative budgeting system because it’s far too easy for a government to be voted out by an opposition party campaigning against it purely on cost.
Disclaimer - this post has been brought to you by my shiny gigabit FTTP connection
Not sure the problem. NBN for me, neighbours, workmates and work office has been a huge upgrade compared to what we had. Bigger speeds, cheaper plans, yes that would be nice but really on my 50 plan I get around 47 down and 18 up not sure what I would do with the additional speeds. The cost to the public, yes it was massive but it would have been either way. Short answer, for me NBN has been great. Not sure on the business side of things though
Blame in on the boomers who don't care about future generations and can't see past their own nose.
You can see their "tax payer monies being used for pie-in-the-sky projects" style comments in this very thread.
I'm not an LNP fan (you can check my post history lol) BUT Tony Abbott was absolutely right to write off the NBN in favour of wireless data. In fewer than 10 years the NBN will be obsolete (even FTTP) but the taxpayer will still be paying off the bill.
but blowing more money on a far inferior network was a better decision?
More money
What do Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and the ALP’s $20B FTTP NBN cost projection have in common?
Purchasing two HFC networks, only to abandon one of them, and roll out new copper is clearly a worse outcome than a fibre network
Its the voters. The voters knew that the Liberals were going to do this. Should have voted labor
Even if it cost a trillion dollars, NBN should have been done the right way.
So what if future generations have to pay back the debt? They will also benefit from it so what’s the problem?
I blame the sheep masses for voting the LNP, and the dummies that voted Labors lies.
Now we have third world internet
Thanks to the people, power to the peeps
Before it was rolled out, half the population were screaming what a waste of money it was and they didn't care about downloading movies in minutes. Their cable tv was all they needed. Small minded people who don't understand tech. I blame mostly them.
That's true to an extent.
If Murdoch wasn't in control of his media empire , including protecting Foxtel and by lobbying the liberals, we wouldn't be in this position.
I wish a fairer solution in which everyone got similar infrastructure was implemented. My NBN implementation is quite poor but in other parts of town they have a better setup, more stability and better speeds (when similar or the same plans are consisted).
I was lucky enough to build in a FTTP area and my internet has been faster, more reliable and cheaper than the ADSL2+ I was using prior near the CBD of Perth. It's a shame that the rest of the network wasn't made to the same quality, my mates live down the road in another estate that used HFC, they constantly have reliability problems. My parents are in an area that Telstra put down cable 30 years ago and they have a different version of HFC installed since and their internet is fast and reliable but it's more expensive and it's upload speeds are not great.
My internet in the future can be upgraded easily, theirs can't, really disappointing that when I want to move house in 5-10 years I'm going to be stuck with new wireless tech or have to find the rare suburbs that have FTTP close to the CBD
The Liberals are bought and owned. I blame the people that own them.
What NBN?
The nbn™ broadband access network is planned for this address
Planned to be available from
Apr-Jun 2021*Looks like prenty of folks here out of work angry at the right wing party. Well we should stay neutral, where is the moderator that acts like facebook if it is not in the commercial sense of the provider it gets blocked on moral grounds.
You can't blame the employer if a red government bloats the public service and red tape! When France had Sarkosy sure he was a corrupt right winger. Then came Hollande and employed endless teachers without schools. France went no-where!
The NBN should not be looked at as a political failure. Woever made such a silly poll will not offer a solution!
Communications ministers do not neet a technical or say a real technical education. Look at Turnbull, typical leftie hogging the position of the right wing party. His son was made a total failure But the lazy leftie was his dad! Alex T had all good intention to offer a rideshare network to Australia. But it was easier for his dad to take the bribe from uber and bail his son out. Quick and easy fix and if uber does not pay any taxes blame Trump for it!Did you just call Turnbull a lefty?
Are you taking the piss?
Nah Left is a word way too right for him lol. Next time Lucy should have smacked him instead of Alex….
Oh my god we've reached peak boomer
Labor. 5G will make the NBN redundant pretty soon.
This is the dumbest comment in this thread, well done.
@Bystander: The idea is that a better internet connection will pay off by opening up new industries and increasing economic growth.
National investment should consider more than the next 4 years