In the next 6-12 months, I would like buy a house to knock down and rebuild.
Are there any builders here who can provide advice with costs? And just answer some general questions I have.
I have not done this before. I have done some Google research however I'm hoping for more specific answers.
Note this is Western Sydney (40KM from CBD)
TIA
Maybe wants to check if there are any builders around first before wasting his time listing his questions. Or maybe wants to bombard them in private messages.
Maybe wants to check if there are any builders around first before wasting his time listing his questions.
But doesn't have a problem wasting our time?
We are not builders, so it's not directed at us. We are wasting our own time. 😂
But you wasted my time?
General questions, yet specific answers. Gotcha.
$2500 per m2 for the build
allow $20000 for the demo
You are pretty close. I was going to say look at build cost at house and land packages for the house divided by square meters + 10% to 20% would make the right number.
Thanks for that
Builder here in mostly doing work in Melbourne's South East Region.
Just some general tips to get you going, allow $2500 per m2 for the build. That will allow for standard finishes and cladding types etc. We are talking standard render, garage, 2 bathrooms, kitchen/living.
I would focus more on the external building costs as the costs of the dwelling can always be value managed to suit your budget. Focus on things like site costs ie; the costs if you will have to pay regardless of the home: easements, significant fall on your site, site access.
Have a rough idea of the profile of your home and begin with dial before you dig, having bore holes dug, a feature survey performed, have all your title documents ready, determine where your utilities are, etc etc.
From what ive seen in the industry you have to be very specific with what you would like with the builder. Dont let the builder make the decisions for you, otherwise you will have variations and extra costs along the way. find a builder with a fixed price contract, and include as many of those site costs as you can.
@mealdealboi: Just to add on, don't let the builder make the decisions, but listen to them in case there's something that can save you serious money. You might specify a non-standard shade of paint for example, where as a similar shade of paint that's carried at most places would be a much more economical choice and look exactly the same.
This seems quite high to me? What am I missing?
I just built a place that I would consider fairly high quality for about $1300 sqm… 40mm stone bench tops in higher end finishes with waterfall ends, black undermount sinks & tapware, 2 bath 3 toilets, free standing bath tub in ensuit etc.
This is in Brisbane though, are building prices that much higher in Sydney and Melbourne?
Yeah same $1300 is pretty spot on, with plenty of extras. Mainstream builder though. $2500 probably for a smaller team, who might give you a better level of service though and more customized experience.
Geez you'd want it for double the price hey!
could be a budget build of $1500 per meter
I dunno what sort of houses the majority of Ozbargainers are living in but I wouldn't call the house I just build for $1300 "budget" personally.
For $2500 sqm we are talking $675,000 for a regular 270sqm house. Seems crazy to me.
Or more specifically, budget $25 per cm2 for the build
Don't forget Architect/Surveyor for the building and the council paperwork, all costs money!
and council approval takes time - might be worthwhile calling your council to find out how long it takes too
Invite them out to dinner for a price reduction ;)
Builder…What do you want to know?
He’s spending most of his time browsing OzB whilst at work, like the rest of us.
It's after lunch, so they're done for the day.
Don't take offence, but why aren't you "out building"?
None taken, I manage multiple projects at a time so I'm constantly on the road and 'connected' phone and laptop.
Is covid impacting your workload? Or the industry in general?
We are experiencing a real down turn, but I can't say whether it was COVID or whether COVID was just the straw that broke the Camels back. We had a real downturn towards the last quarter of last year that we haven't recovered from and have struggled to get more work since then, currently running on fumes and existing projects that were dragged out. Colleagues and friends are loosing jobs in droves, I'm very lucky at the moment.
Builder…What do you want to know?
Does this ever work as a pick up line? I'm in a field that most people find boring and I can almost see their eyes glaze over when I talk about my work. Being a builder sounds cool.
Does this ever work as a pick up line?
I'm extremely married, my pickup game is completely out of synch. It shuts down and blue screens at eye contact.
I'm in a field that most people find boring and I can almost see their eyes glaze over when I talk about my work. Being a builder sounds cool.
It's really fun I have to say, I can still see myself doing this in 20 years currently 10 years in.
The trick is never to make eye contact in the first place. 😉
their eyes glaze over when I talk about my work
all jobs sound boring if you get a couple steps beyond the basic outline.
you could be a demolitions expert, but the 95% of your time spent planning only leaves you with about 18 seconds of interesting work talk
less is better, just say you "do stuff with numbers" or whatever
im saying this as someone who has had a few interesting sounding jobs, but still see the glaze
or maybe im just dull
The last project I worked on was a Space archeology one, which inevitably led to these questions at dinner parties:
So I've heard you're an archealogist? Like Indiana Jones? How exciting!😃
Huh, no. I'm not.
oh :( Are you an astronaut then? Have you been to space? 😮
Oh no, no. I'm not. I haven't been to space.
So what do you do?
I help analyse satellite ima …(I can see their eyes glazing over) and I change the subject.
I usually get 4 and half words in before I give up. That's how basic they want the outline to be 😂
@[Deactivated]: when i get asked what i do for a living, i say "as little as possible" and leave it there. no time for glaze.
@[Deactivated]: You're playing it wrong JarJar. You've gotta play the Yes game.
So you're like Indiana Jones?
Yes, Indiana Jones of the sky.
Have you been to space?
It feels like it, yeah.
What do you do.
I discover space through satellite ima…
Now your telling a story I understand, by using my questions as framing points.
I'd love to know what space Indiana Jones, analysing satellite images, does.
You're playing it wrong JarJar.
It was the wrong audience. I am an astrophysicist and my wife at the time was a social worker.Most of the guests at those dinner parties were her work friends : social workers, police officers, psychologists…etc I was the odd one out. I didn't mind. I quite enjoyed listening to their stories.
@[Deactivated]: I would actually be extremely interested.
Stop hanging out in groups that have a fully functional brain. Find more of my kind instead, with brain damage induced by spending too many sleep hours on Wikipedia overdoses
I have the same reaction when I read your comments.
I once saw a guy in a Jar Jar tie pick up. After that I believe anything is possible
I’m wondering if there are problems with getting building supplies and if so, what products are in short supply?
So far so good, there is a lot of stock in Australia and likewise the construction cycle is very slow, so you don't immediately need all products for the build (my average project is 6-12 months). The biggest challenge for us has been delivery time not availability. Everything is still coming into the country, but what would normally take 4 weeks is now taking 6-8 weeks, I just factor this into my planning. Also another issue has been local factories that manufacture are having difficulty with labour, at the height of COVID they could only have a certain number of people on the production line, where normally they could ramp up labour and churn through manufacturing they were restricted in numbers and hence what they could pump out.
Have PM'd you
why specifically a knockdown rebuild? If you want new, plenty of those around or you could just buy a land and house package.
Few reasons:
- After land size bigger than what is offered with house and land packages
- Don't really want to live in an estate like area
- Customise the build
What is your budget?
Under $1M
@[Deactivated]: 40KM from CBD, I'd like to hope so…
I currently live in the area and rundown houses are about $550-$650k
@Bottom Dollar: You couldn't pay me $1M to deal with the headache of doing it, especially with the level of knowledge you are displaying. You will get taken my suprise multiple times before you're done. I'm not saying this because I know more than you. I've just had experience dealing with tradies on small jobs and know what council can be like.
@Bottom Dollar: So like 900k?
40km away from cbd? What's that, blacktown?
So the land costs what? 500k? Why would anyone be happy to put a 1m house on a 500k block of land. If I had 1.5m total, I would spend 1m on land and 500k on house.
@Bottom Dollar: It takes around 8 - 12 months for a knockdown rebuild. Sometime more if planning permission is delayed. Are you currently renting? Did you factor in rent payments on top of mortgage repayments for that period?
i did a knockdown rebuild.
cost can depend on what level of features you want, site conditions and who is building it:
- single vs double storey
- ceiling heights
- slab or stumps
- flat site or sloped
- laminated cabinets vs vinyl wrap, etc
- stone/marble benchtops
- types of tiles used
- hardwood/composite floors vs carpet vs tiles
- appliances
- security systems
- electrical/lighting
- the list goes on and on
are you going with a small/medium/high volume builder (metricon, porter davis, carter grange etc), or are you after a bespoke build (need an architect and plans and then shop around for a builder)?
there are simply too many variables to give you any specific answers.
Good point. If OP looks at build cost of a house and land package as the minimum then probably add 10% to 20% is more likely the total cost.
I've done a few knock down-builds. I've managed some directly with a builder, I've also had volume builders attend to others.
Depends on what you want from the house too. If I did it again for investment, I'd just pass it to another volume builder. If it was for me and my family though, I'd want to make it personal such that a private builder would be the way to go (for me).
Wouldn't it be cheaper to either:
rather than knock down an existing house and build new?
rather than buy a house then knock it down and build new?
FTFY. It's a 3-step process and so much could go wrong.
Some areas there is just no supply. OP hasn't stated (yet, to my knowledge) what area he's looking in to, just that it's 40km from town. If it's a well established area, there will be no empty blocks
Pretty hard to buy land in most good suburbs these days. Very rare in Melbourne, possible in somewhere you might build a beach house, but getting rarer too.
Depends on how committed someone is.
Buy an uninhabitable house on a block: $600k
Buy a renovation job house on a block: $700k
Buy a liveable house on a block: $800k
Cost to build new: $250k (not even sure it is possible) + effort. Would you choose uninhabitable house on a block? If $250k gets you a bare minimum new house would it fetch $850k?
Yeah, you're not going to get a block of land in a good suburb for $600k in Melbourne. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, because I'm talking about a lack of supply. All the good suburbs are pretty much already built out, and if you want land, you have to knock down a house. Even if there was a block of land, it would run you into the multi millions of dollars for a decent sized block. Even a tiny block would be in the 7 figures. For example, in an average middle class suburb like Camberwell, a slightly below average block of land (660sqm) sold for $1.7m at the end of 2019 (which to me seems like a really good price, too). There were a total of 2 land sales in 2019, none in 2018, 2 in 2017 and 2 in 2016. There is almost no land for sale, and this is not a high end suburb. Step up to Malvern, Toorak or Middle Park, and if you can find a piece of land (which is near impossible), you'll be paying a hell of a lot more. From memory, subdivided tennis courts in Toorak go for about $6-7m these days.
@[Deactivated]: We're pretty much on the same point. If you buy a $1m block of land there is no way you can build the same house to fit in with next door for $250k, it would be more like $450k if not $600k.
@[Deactivated]: Someone is selling the portion of land that contains their shed and filthy pool (266 sqm) for $900k in Mentone. For that price , you have to pay for your own demo but it does come with a proposed house plan for a 4 bedroom , 2 living , 3 bathrooms and a double garage. No mention of how much that house would cost.
@[Deactivated]: It's walking distance to the mentone village cafes , woolies, chemist warehouse, Coles and Mentone Grammar school.It is also zoned for both Mentone Girls and Beaumaris Secondary Colleges.
If you're not a local, you wouldn't know about the horrible traffic during peak hours due to being so close to all those schools and shops. It will be interesting to see how much it goes for as I live in that area.
@[Deactivated]: It doesn't matter. Mentone isn't a high end suburb, and that is a high end price. Mentone is still very much a working class/lower middle class area.
https://sqmresearch.com.au/sold-properties.php?postcode=3194
Based off this curve, the price for that sized land should be between 700-800 with a house. $900k without a house is dreaming.
@[Deactivated]: That's not how it works in Mentone. If you look at the curve, you'll find a couple of outliers - those are houses that are closer to the beach .
10 Birch street, for instance, sold for $1.28m in Dec. It is slightly smaller than the plot of land on Plummer Rd , is further from the beach and Mentone Grammar, and has a dated look and horrible layout.
@[Deactivated]: Dude, that's a fully built house on 272sqm, so a bigger block of land, and it's completely livable and good to go. That's a completely different kettle of fish to buying someone's swimming pool and paying $900k for it. There is no chance that anyone will buy Plummer Rd for $900k.
@[Deactivated]: Oops, I got the size wrong. 266 sqm and 272 sqm are close enough in size.
The Birch street house sold for $1.28 mil.
There is no chance that anyone will buy Plummer Rd for $900k.
Not $900k but it will go in the mid-$800k. It will cost about $400k to built a custom house on it. So total is $1.25m for a newly-built, 4-bedroom custom house 4 mins walk to the beach. That's a steal compared to the 3-bedder Birch St one, that sold for $1.28mil.
P.s: Re Birch street house, we are looking at different photos. I'm looking at the ones that were up when it was for sale. You're looking at the ones that were taken after it was renovated and was advertised for lease.
@[Deactivated]: traffic there is stuffed. seen quite a few accidents coming out of safeway onto balcombe
@jimdotpud: It sure is. Wouldn't want to live in that particular spot. I'm in the next suburb, which I find is comparatively less congested. But yeah, the traffic is one of the major downside of living so close to the beach and amenities, while still being only around 20km from the CBD
@[Deactivated]: I'm married to the little mermaid. She becomes despondent if we live more than 5 mins walk from the beach.
God, I hope you don't mean Moorabbin.
God, you're a snob :) what suburbs would you consider acceptable?
@[Deactivated]: Here's the view you can get from a suburb you would call working class.Closer view. Glad those 'middle managers' are too snobbish to venture around here ;)
@[Deactivated]: How can people afford to buy housing on a median income then? Prices are astronomical. Or are the buyers all cashed up members of the Chinese Communist Party?
This country is such a &^%&^% ripoff.
@[Deactivated]: Not according to the ABS, which ranked Camberwell as the 8th most advantaged suburb in Melbourne, based on a mix of household income and occupation.
@[Deactivated]: Occupation, so there you have it. White collar jobs = middle class. You're likely not going to find dad working in the Heinz caning factory or on the tools in a Camberwell household, but you will find him working 9 to 5 at EY in a middle management position, or seeing patients at the local GP surgery. You're not going to find many CEOs or Specialist Doctors (there will be some), because most of those are living in higher end suburbs like Toorak, Kooyong, Malvern, Hawthorn, East Melbourne and Middle Park.
@[Deactivated]: The median house price in Camberwell is $2.13 mil . How can someone who works in "middle management" afford to pay over a $110k in mortgage repayments per year? If that is the case, I need to ask for a pay rise stat!
@[Deactivated]: Because they're not? It's not like they're starting from zero, they probably bought that house for a $1.5m deposit from the sale of their last house. Camberwell isn't full of 20 year olds, it's full of 40 and 50 year olds and their kids.
@[Deactivated]: The median weekly household income in Camberwell is higher than that in Kew, Kooyong, Middle Park …etc.
@[Deactivated]: Come on mate, if you're trying to make out that Camberwell is a wealthier area than Middle Park or Kooyong, you're grossly mistaken. Middle Park is the most expensive sqm residential land in the city,
https://www.domain.com.au/news/middle-park-the-bayside-stret…
and Kooyong has consistently been the most expensive suburb in Melbourne for many years (it's not included in all the newspaper articles because it shares a postcode with Malvern, but if you separate the data, it's been ahead of Toorak for at least the last 3 or 4 years, and level with Toorak for at least 20 years).
http://house.speakingsame.com/suburbtop.php?sta=vic&cat=Home…
The people in Kooyong and Middle Park don't earn less money than the residents of Camberwell, the ATO just thinks they do, because they have better accountants. You're talking about an enclave or rich listers and places where you pay at least a million per bedroom, if not more, for residential houses.
Toorak is number 12 on your list. Yeah right.
Come on mate, if you're trying to make out that Camberwell is a wealthier area than Middle Park or Kooyong
I'm not. Middle Park, kooyong, Toorak.. etc it's mostly old money that rich kids have inherited from their parents. It doesn't necessarily mean that they earn more than someone in Camberwell. In fact the 'official' figures say that they earn less.
@[Deactivated]: The official figures show that in Camberwell you got middle classes making their $120k a year, and paying full tax. In the more affluent suburbs you have a plethora of income splitting, self managed super funds, family trusts, and shell companies to disguise wealth. The fact that Toorak is so far down that list makes it’s very obvious.
@[Deactivated]: There is no way that Camberwell can be considered middle class. Its been a million dollar suburb for 10+ years and I don't know too many average middle class families buying up million dollar houses…
We obviously have very different definitions of middle class.
@Nebargains: Literally everyone I know who is middle class lives in $1m+ homes. In fact almost everyone I know who is middle class 1st home is worth more than a million, let alone later homes.
We clearly have different definitions. What is a middle class job to you?
@[Deactivated]: It's not about jobs, its about income, above you make the connection that white collar job = middle class.
How can you you possibly beleive that a suburb where the median price is $2.1m is a suburb for middle class people? It's a suburb for wealthy people, regardless of where that wealth came from.
If being able to afford a $2.1m home is just middle class, then bugger me, I must be bordering on poverty.
@Nebargains: No, it’s not about income, it’s about your job and education. Middle class by definition is a group of white collar jobs. People on the tools may well earn more money than many middle class jobs, but they are most definitely working class.
Middle class constitutes a wide range of jobs and incomes, but I’d say most average middle class jobs pay in the low six figure range (And obviously up from there). Do most people in Camberwell who own houses earn low 6 figures? Probably not, but if you have double income and a household income of $2-300k, a house in Camberwell isn’t unrealistic.
@[Deactivated]: This isn't whirlpool forums, in the real world 2-300k is a lot of money.
If you earn more than 100k, you are in the top 10% of earners in the country.
@[Deactivated]: I think you are a little bit out of touch with reality to be honest, Camberwell has always been a fancy inner city suburb near fancy private schools and a price tag to match.
I'm guessing you just operate in circles where everyone earns that kind of money but that is less common than you think.
If I grabbed my 20 closest friends I'd say only 4 definitely make over $100k and another 2 would be around that mark. Even the ones on good coin couldn't afford Camberwell.
A household on $200k could not afford to spend close to 50% of their income servicing a mortgage there, then even if they wanted to, how do they save up for a deposit on a $2m house? 400k for 20% only to then pay 6.7k per month on repayments? Then I'm sure they have fancy high end cars like BMWs and Mercs etc. Guess the middle class family drive those too?
@Nebargains: Why does everyone think that you buy a $2m house from scratch? People buy in places like Camberwell when they are a little older and are in their 3rd of 4th house. And BMWs and Mercedes? Sure some, but I see more leased and financed expenses cars in the driveways of super shit suburbs like Tarneit, because people from places like Camberwell are generally conservative and don’t feel the need to borrow $100k on a car to show that they’ve ‘made it’. People own them sure, but you’d be amazed at the number of old cars and things like Mazda’s sitting in driveways. If only a few of your friends make more than $100k, I assume you’re either very young or they probably aren’t in middle class positions.
The idea is to take up option 2, however it depends what is available in my area. This may lead to knock down rebuild, however I'm not entirely sure, which is why I am seeking advice.
Yes which is why usually in OP's case (your last line) it gets split into units so you can sell some to cover the cost of building the good one.
They may want to customize the home
Higher ceilings
Extra large garage
Bigger bathrooms
Choice of fixtures and fittings at cost price rather than "house and land price"
It is only cheaper to go with a house and land package if you make minimal alternation
For more specific answers you'll have to give more specific requirements