Red Light Camera Traffic Fine NSW

crazyboy on 19/05/2020 - 12:25

Hello OzBargainers,

Looking for some advice.

My wife's car got a $457 fine + 3 demerit points for crossing a traffic light on red signal. She has learner licence and I have full licence. Actually this time, I was driving her car and she was sitting next to me and that's when we got the fine. The notice also says learner and provisional licence holders may incur additional points.

A couple of years ago on my L I got $330 fine and 4 demerit points for driving in bus lane. But when I converted to full licence (as I had overseas licence more than 3 years old), I only had 1 demerit point left in my licence. So, currently I have 1 demerit point.

My question is should I ask my wife to transfer the fine in my name as I was the one actually driving?
Also, if my wife pays the fine, how much demerit points would be deducted as she is on her L's (soon to get full licence as she has overseas licence older than 3 years). If she pays the fine, will they ask her later to nominate the driver sitting next to her as she has L licence?

I know its my fault, I am ready to pay and learn my lesson. But wanted to know if we can apply for leniency?
I think dispute may not be an option as I remember crossing the traffic light while it was amber and they have photographic evidence too. I am based in NSW.

Pics attached for your reference.

https://imgur.com/a/CwyB2uN

Automotive

closed Comments

  • tsunamisurfer on 19/05/2020 - 12:31
    +52

    < My question is should I ask my wife to transfer the fine in my name as I was the one actually driving?

    Yes…the driver should be the person that receives the Infringement.

    • Scrooge McDuck on 19/05/2020 - 16:11
      +10

      Also, abide by the laws whilst in Australia.

      • Morphio25 on 20/05/2020 - 13:51

        Traffic offences are not able to be punished by imprisonment.

        • pegaxs on 20/05/2020 - 13:59
          +4

          I beg to differ. In some cases, such as negligent driving occasioning death or grievous bodily harm could end you up in gaol. This could have been the end result of OP's driving had a pedestrian stepped off the curb.

          Other driving offences that could see you do time are; continued repeat offences, extremely high speed offences, high range PCA, driving under the influence of drugs and/or driving while suspended/disqualified from driving…

          • GG57 on 20/05/2020 - 14:12

            @pegaxs: And if the offender happens to be indigenous, the risk of jail if the fine(s) are not paid apparently increases significantly.

        • Mallard on 20/05/2020 - 15:44

          Lying about who was driving is though
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Einfeld#Criminal_convic…

      • SnakeCasablanca on 20/05/2020 - 15:33

        Jesus. You definitely just turned this up to 11.

        Who hurt you? Was your whole family murdered by someone running a red light?

        • Scrooge McDuck on 20/05/2020 - 16:50
          -1

          You killed my father. Prepare to die.

  • MS Paint on 19/05/2020 - 12:33
    +32

    Asking ozbargain if ok to commit fraud?

    Try www.ozfraudin.com.au

    Fine is worth more than the car. Rip.

      • onetwothreefour on 19/05/2020 - 13:10
        +50

        No, it's not, but you are asking who should say they were driving. The obvious answer is the person who was driving should say they were driving.

      • JungliChilli on 20/05/2020 - 18:47

        L
        O
        L
        ?

    • aboogee on 19/05/2020 - 13:40
      +10

      i actually tried clicking the link, fml

      • I Smell Pennies on 19/05/2020 - 13:45
        +4

        you weren't the only one!

        • pegaxs on 19/05/2020 - 15:41
          +13

          Seems link is down, it's been OzBargain'd…

          • [Deactivated] on 19/05/2020 - 23:02

            @pegaxs: D'uh. Where else can you get a 65 inch C9 at $2,700 these days?

      • waletmoro on 19/05/2020 - 20:46

        Yes. I click the link, not working. check the cable, wifi, still not working. What happen to my computer? And then, ooohhh I think I need to go to school anymore.

    • Dotherightthing on 20/05/2020 - 17:22

      that link is a fraud!

  • foobat on 19/05/2020 - 12:34
    +21

    Yes, you should, as you were the Driver.

    Barring committing fraud, Your wife would get slugged an extra $268 and 2 demerit points for not displaying L plates.

    • bigticket on 19/05/2020 - 14:29
      +8

      wife would get slugged an extra $268

      That is unlikely to happen, as the car is registered in the wife's name the fine arrived in the wife's name, all that needs to be done is pay the fine and that would be the end of the matter. Its a automated system that issues red light fines that does not check images for any other infringements.

      • fruit on 19/05/2020 - 18:20
        +2

        Its [an] automated system that issues red light fines that does not check images for any other infringements.

        [Citation needed]

        That's just a few more lines of code to raise more revenue.

        • backupper1 on 20/05/2020 - 11:11
          -1

          Probably linking to ‘scan_L_plates’ module if driver_type == DRIVER_LEARNER.

      • berry580 on 19/05/2020 - 22:42

        That's part of the problem.

  • Collies80 on 19/05/2020 - 12:34
    -2

    if you only have 1 point left you're going to lose your license either way

    • Ghost47 on 19/05/2020 - 13:01
      +2

      Doesn't work that way.

      • D C on 19/05/2020 - 13:10
        +1

        Does in some places (Vic?). Not showing 'L' plates means the teacher, aka @OP, gets a fine too.

        • Ghost47 on 19/05/2020 - 13:12
          +3

          Did you read any of what you're reply to? It's obvious what I was saying was not referring to what you are even talking about.

          • crazyboy on 19/05/2020 - 13:14
            +2

            @Ghost47: Thank you for the information. I was thinking like 1 have 13 points and points are deducted from there on.

            I got it now, its the other way round. Points are added up to 13 and then you lose licence.

            So right now I only have 1 demerit point.

            • Ghost47 on 19/05/2020 - 13:16
              +9

              @crazyboy: Yes, exactly. So if you cop this (and you should) you'll have 4 in total. Plenty of wiggle room still.

              If your wife cops it she'll cop it for running the red, and as mentioned by foobat, she'll also cop it for not displaying plates. It seems for a learner she has a maximum of 4 points she can have, so 2 + 3 = 5. She could lose her learners if you don't cop it.

            • CandyMan on 20/05/2020 - 14:09

              @crazyboy: Displaying an L plate while not a learner is also an offence

    • crazyboy on 19/05/2020 - 13:02
      +1

      I have 1 demerit point only.

    • ThithLord on 19/05/2020 - 14:26
      +8

      You gain demerit points - you don't lose them.

  • GG57 on 19/05/2020 - 12:35
    +1

    Whose name is the car registered to?
    You won't get any leniency, but the registered owner of the car will receive the fine; up to you if you want to transfer it to the other person.

    BTW I can't determine which of the two cars through the red light is yours; did it have L Plates displayed?

    • Collies80 on 19/05/2020 - 12:37

      Theres two pics but the one still crossing the line on a red is the corolla

      • GG57 on 19/05/2020 - 13:39

        The car / SUV turning right also seems to have been captured.

    • kerfuffle on 19/05/2020 - 12:39
      +1

      You’re not supposed to drive with L plates on if you’re not a L plater, unlike P plates

      • Antikythera on 20/05/2020 - 12:48

        i almost got done for driving with P plates once. was driving a friends car home because she had had a few drinks. didn't even think of the rule as i'd been off Ps for a few years already. officer let me off with a warning.

    • crazyboy on 19/05/2020 - 13:03
      +2

      Its my wife's car. I was driving it, hence removed L plates as I have full licence.
      The car is silver Corolla 2001.

  • Fredfloresjr on 19/05/2020 - 12:40
    +1

    all I can is… This hurts.

  • a b i on 19/05/2020 - 12:52
    -8

    Another observation. Time in red is 0.6 seconds. So you probably just missed the light, not sure if it counts towards leniency.

    • spackbace on 19/05/2020 - 12:59
      +21

      Yellow light duration - 4.5s. No one ahead of OP, no one behind, no issues with the intersection.

      Also, red light offences don't get leniency.

      • crazyboy on 19/05/2020 - 13:05

        Thanks noted.

        • spackbace on 19/05/2020 - 14:19

          No, just no.

          • King Taddy on 19/05/2020 - 14:44
            +1

            @spackbace: Genuine question, not sure why being negged.

            In that case, when is a driver actually taken to have entered an intersection? Is it the rear axle crossing the line?

            • spackbace on 19/05/2020 - 14:46
              +3

              @King Taddy: You don't just freely get to drive through once it's about to go red, the yellow light is when you should come to a stop if safe to do so, and there is no reason here why it wasn't.

              • King Taddy on 19/05/2020 - 14:52

                @spackbace: Completely understand that from a good-driver point of view.

                But the offence is not "driving through a light that is about to go red." It is "entering an intersection after the light has turned red." So my question is, what counts as 'entering an intersection.'

                • fruit on 19/05/2020 - 18:23
                  +2

                  @King Taddy: No, it is an offence to fail to stop at an amber light unless it is not safe to do so.

                  Source: Rule 57 of the Road Rules 2014

            • John Kimble on 19/05/2020 - 14:48
              +2

              @King Taddy: When your car crosses the white line. Why would it have any to do with axles?

              • King Taddy on 19/05/2020 - 14:54
                +1

                @John Kimble: Because OP has already crossed the line in both photos. So what's to say the light wasn't amber when he crossed? And went red after he crossed?

                If this NRMA article is anything to go off, turns out it is rear axle: https://www.mynrma.com.au/cars-and-driving/driver-training-a…

                • John Kimble on 19/05/2020 - 14:58
                  +1

                  @King Taddy: Because the light was red for 0.6 seconds already.

                  Point 2 in your own link states

                  You have run a red light if your vehicle crosses the white stop line

                • Euphemistic on 19/05/2020 - 15:26
                  +3

                  @King Taddy:

                  So what's to say the light wasn't amber when he crossed? And went red after he crossed?

                  Physics. Speed can be estimated from the time in two photos and the distance covered. Then you interpolate backwards by 0.6sec to work out where the vehicle was when it crossed.

                  Note: red light cameras have been doing his for years. Theyvw calibrated the cameras to work properly.

                • Euphemistic on 19/05/2020 - 15:33
                  +1

                  @King Taddy:

                  If this NRMA article is anything to go off, turns out it is rear axle:

                  The article says:

                  The rear wheels need to be past the line before the red light comes on to avoid triggering the camera

                  Which indicates that if any part of the vehicle is crossing the line when the light goes red you’ll get a fine. It will not apply if the vehicle has already crossed.

                  Additionally as all images are reviewed by a person the iffy ones will get binned straight away. There is no point issuing a ‘close’ one as the person is likely to incur public costs to fight it. It would take long for a new person reviewing the images to work out what is close and what is an obvious infringement.

                • pegaxs on 19/05/2020 - 16:07
                  +7

                  @King Taddy:

                  So what's to say the light wasn't amber when he crossed?

                  It wasn't. It was red when he crossed.

                  The difference in the two photos suggests that OP was driving at about 36km/h.
                  OP triggered the sensor after the light had already been red for 0.6sec.
                  At a constant 36km/h, this would put the car back some 5~6m from where it is in the first photo when the light turned red
                  OP's vehicle is a `92~98 Toyota Corolla. The length of this vehicle is 4.2ish metres.
                  So, from this, we know that OP's cars rear axle is on the line in the photo. We know that if we move the vehicle back in time and put the nose of "past" car to the rear bumper of "future car", this is only 4.2m.
                  We know from the speed in the photos that in 0.6 seconds, the car would have been further back than the length of the vehicle, at some 5~6m back from that line.

                  Ergo, OP was behind the line when the light turned red.

                  "MaFFs"

                  Not to forget that OP had 45m and 4.5 seconds of amber light in which to slow down and stop… Approxamately this much distance at 36km/h, or this much distance at the 70km/h speed limit… So, somewhere in between those two, OP saw the amber light.

            • seraphim2017 on 19/05/2020 - 15:07
              +1

              @King Taddy: If a car's axle is only just crossing the line on red, then that driver would have had 4.5s on yellow to chose to stop but didn't.

              The driver would then have made a choice.

              The driver would have made a poor choice.

              The best consequence is a fine. The worst is cleaning up a pedestrian or car and murdering someone.

              Australia, this is why we can't have nice things!

              • King Taddy on 19/05/2020 - 15:39
                +2

                @seraphim2017: I have no doubt the driver had ample time to stop. And that stopping would have been the smart choice.

                Just wondered if there was an avenue to contest the offence based on the evidence at hand.

                But I think Euphemistic hit the nail on the head, that the photos scientifically prove where the car would have been exactly when the light went red.

        • John Kimble on 19/05/2020 - 14:49

          Yes, but the light is already red in the photo.

    • MS Paint on 19/05/2020 - 13:00
      +2

      There is no leniency with red light fines.

      • crazyboy on 19/05/2020 - 13:05

        Thanks Noted

  • Hithere on 19/05/2020 - 12:58
    +1

    My question is should I ask my wife to transfer the fine in my name as I was the one actually driving?

    Of course, unless committing fraud is OK to you.

    But wanted to know if we can apply for leniency?

    You can, but you won't get any.

    how much demerit points would be deducted

    You will incur 3 demerit points and a fine.

    If you commit an offence that carries demerit points the points are added to your record not deducted.

  • spackbace on 19/05/2020 - 13:00
    +4

    Yellow light duration - 4.5s

    Lol great driving on display there…

    • MS Paint on 19/05/2020 - 13:01
      +4

      Not concentrating or stuff all situational awareness. Better off the road.

    • crazyboy on 19/05/2020 - 13:10
      -4

      Actually I was coming from opposite direction. I had to take a U turn. But I can't from a traffic light in NSW. So I took right turn, then there was a small market area parking. I parked my car there. Then took the exit from the other side on the main road. So was was very close to the intersection. I was also unaware of the camera. It was an area I have never driven before.

      I know its my fault :(

      • kerfuffle on 19/05/2020 - 13:35
        +9

        I was also unaware of the camera. It was an area I have never driven before.

        Not an excuse. There's signs saying that a red light camera is ahead. Are you going to use that excuse when you hit a pedestrian saying that it was an area you'd never been in before and that's why you hit the pedestrian?

      • fruit on 19/05/2020 - 18:27
        +5

        I was also unaware of the camera HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

        I know its my fault

        Do you know what you did wrong?

      • Zephyrus on 20/05/2020 - 10:55
        +1

        I was also unaware of the camera

        Unimportant. You should follow the road rules whether you're going to be caught or not. You (profanity) up and got caught out, that's it. This fine is telling you not to (profanity) up again.

      • Antikythera on 20/05/2020 - 12:56

        so you pulled out from the 7-11 and started accelerating from stationary and still tried to beat the amber light?
        amber means stop. it is only there because people have to slow from 70 kmh. not so people have a chance to speed up from 0 kmh and beat it.

  • Ghost47 on 19/05/2020 - 13:07
    +1

    But wanted to know if we can apply for leniency?
    I think dispute may not be an option as I remember crossing the traffic light while it was amber and they have photographic evidence too.

    What kind of leniency are you wanting? Running a red is different to being 1 or 2kms over the limit (taking into the leeway you get given due to speedo inaccuracies or whatever). I don't think they'll give you leniency considering the yellow light duration, you probably shouldn't have proceeded since it seems like the amber was on for a while. If you were speeding slightly and have a good driving record you can usually write a letter and request a warning instead.

    As mentioned demerit points are not removed, they are added and increased. When you reach a certain amount you get your licence suspended. It seems in NSW as a full licence holder you can have up to 13 points, so since you're only on 1 point it's not like you're going to lose your licence or anything.

    Do the right thing by your wife and transfer it to yourself and pay for it.

    • crazyboy on 19/05/2020 - 13:17
      +3

      Sure will do. Thanks

  • EightImmortals on 19/05/2020 - 13:08
    +15

    Drives in bus lanes, goes through red lights? Do us all a favour and lose the extra demerit point.

    • Ghost47 on 19/05/2020 - 13:10

      Demerit points are accumulated not subtracted…

    • crazyboy on 19/05/2020 - 13:12

      I was new here while driving in Australia first time and my friend who had full licence was not aware of T Way. Hence we both got the fine. Happened in Blacktown T Way.

  • Hithere on 19/05/2020 - 13:16
    +10

    She has learner licence and I have full licence.

    I pray that you aren't the one teaching her to drive OP.

    • crazyboy on 19/05/2020 - 13:19

      Unfortunately, I am the one :)

      • spackbace on 19/05/2020 - 13:24
        +22

        No, please pay for a proper teacher.

      • [Deactivated] on 19/05/2020 - 15:57

        Why do you have to teach her to drive when she already has an international driving licence? Is that a new rule?

        • sathion on 19/05/2020 - 16:44
          +1

          QLD - my wife had an international one and when she got residency she had to convert to a QLD learners within 3 months of that, she then had to pass the practical drivers test which then swapped straight over to a full QLD open licence.

          • [Deactivated] on 19/05/2020 - 16:51

            @sathion: So you need to be a learner to book a driving test? Make sense, I guess.

            I have a few friends who are migrants and they were driving on their international licence for years while they were completing their masters/ Phd and then having to go back to being considered a Learner and needing another driver to sit next to you when you decide to get a full Victorian licence seems so weird.

  • MITM on 19/05/2020 - 13:22
    +3

    Name checks out.

  • dust on 19/05/2020 - 13:23
    +7

    Have you considered transferring the fine to someone deceased? That way nobody has to pay for it! (Works better if you're a judge.)

  • futureminime on 19/05/2020 - 13:30
    +4

    Just to be clear - If you are currently on a NSW full license you would have up to 13 points. You can look up online how many points you have currently, which is where I assume you got the number 1 point remaining.

    Points aren't 'lost' they are added as demerits when you commit offences. If you commit more than one offence more points are added. If at any point you increase the number of points over the limit for your licence, you get a suspension which varies by licence type/amount of points over the limit/history of previous suspensions.

    https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety-rules/demerits-offen…

    Demerit point limits
    The limits are:

    Unrestricted licence: 13 points
    Professional drivers: 14 points. See Professional drivers for more information
    Provisional P2 licence: 7 points
    Provisional P1 licence: 4 points
    Learner licence: 4 points
    Unrestricted licence with a good behaviour period: 2 points within the term of the good behaviour period.

    Hope this helps.

    • crazyboy on 19/05/2020 - 13:35
      +1

      Thanks

  • pegaxs on 19/05/2020 - 13:31
    +11

    I know its my fault, I am ready to pay and learn my lesson.

    Then just pay the fine… Why did you need to post here?

    Leniency on what grounds? Would you want someone who ran a red light and killed one of your family members to get "leniency"?

    • MITM on 19/05/2020 - 15:29
      -1

      No body got killed (this time).

      • pegaxs on 19/05/2020 - 15:37

        Oh, in that case, if nobody got killed, we should offer leniency. That will make sure it happens next time…

  • Seasoned Salt on 19/05/2020 - 13:35
    +10

    Some people should really not be on the roads. This is a clear example.

    • GG57 on 19/05/2020 - 13:44
      +3

      Or, they should accept the penalty (which OP seems to have done) and NOT post on here.

  • Trioboy on 19/05/2020 - 13:58

    You could always opt for a court hearing and write to the judge pleading to reduce the fine. It may work, although you will end up with additional court fees. iIt will be easier to bite the bullet and pay the fine.

    • GG57 on 19/05/2020 - 14:13

      On what basis do you think OP could plead to the magistrate?

      • spackbace on 19/05/2020 - 14:20
        +4

        It's the vibe

        • MS Paint on 19/05/2020 - 14:36
          +1

          Mabo

      • Trioboy on 19/05/2020 - 15:15

        You could plead for a fine reduction citing financial difficulty, especially during this time. I don't think they will budge on the demerit points though.
        disclaimer: im not a lawyer and this is not legal advice

  • Hithere on 19/05/2020 - 14:43

    Tell him he's dreamin'

  • JimmyF on 19/05/2020 - 14:54
    +2

    I know its my fault, I am ready to pay and learn my lesson. But wanted to know if we can apply for leniency?

    The pictures show the yellow light for 4.5 seconds before you went through the red. What 'leniency' angle are you after? There is none on red lights.

    As you have no points left, you'll be walking for a while.

  • Gauntlet on 19/05/2020 - 15:14
    +9

    My pedantry goes off the charts whenever I see people type "lost a demerit point".
    You start with zero demerit points and when you commit an offence you obtain a demerit point.
    Losing a demerit point would be a good thing!
    /rant
    EDIT
    Turns out other people have this pet peeve too

    • pegaxs on 19/05/2020 - 15:40

      Mine is "right of way"… No idiot, it's "obligation to give way"… there is no "right of way" in Australian road rules…

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