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ok we will buy your nonsense that we came from a rock
There are better children's stories out there.
Perhaps more entertaining ones but none better than intelligent design narratives which give meaning, purpose and hope.
There's nothing intelligent about the creation myth.
There are thousands of scientists from the world's leading universities including heads of departments who are coming out on the side of ID. This signed statement represents a small fraction of them: https://dissentfromdarwin.org/. I spoke to one of them and he said the momentum is so strong that he would not be surprised if ID would be the position of the majority of scientists within a generation.
@Kikiriki: Universities are reservoirs for a wide range of thinking. Some are religious teaching facilities.
Some there hold beliefs & work in disciplines far removed from thinking in evolution. Many know nothing much outside their own rarified discipline, so know only what they learnt about evolution in school. (That can be very little & poorly taught by teachers who may hold a very different religious belief. No wonder few seem to really understand Evolution!)
I was a consultant employed at one Uni, moving between research scientists in many areas.
By that link, it seems ID claims any different views in the field proves their belief! That's very unsound thinking.
There will always be differing opinions in science. That's a strength in science but not in fundamentalist religious beliefs.
It reminds me of a Creationist who was enrolled in my first year Biology class at uni. He argued with the teaching every lesson & wanted the Bible accepted as the reference text for that science class covering an introduction to the thinking of Evolution.
Unfortunately for him, the answers to the exam question weren't all 1 word "God". He failed, changed nothing, & dropped out.
I worried for him. I like people with different views to mine, who feel strong enough to express them.
But it now reminds me of other fundamentalist religions wanting to impose their beliefs on thinking at schools & universities. Teachers have been killed for not teaching what different fundamentalist groups at different times said must be taught!!
Don't think your hoped for change in academic thinking in this area will move to accept a fundamentalist belief based ID. It's the antithesis of the scientific method.
But as a Christian, you've got hope, certainty of "Truth" & belief on your side😉
I'm happier with the wonders that uncertainty & search for knowledge bring. It's a wonderful experience😊
@INFIDEL: I could not agree more that we should avoid fundamentalism which can appear on all sides. I support evidence based approaches. The person I spoke with was a Geneticist who knew the details of evolutionary biology. It was evidence that drove him away from Darwinism. The same is true for my wife who is also a PhD scientist. The head of her department at Monash holds to an ID model although it took years for her to discover that as he held it close to him so his career was not threatened. I too support different views. Intimidation from whatever side hurts science.
The person I spoke with was a Geneticist who knew the details of evolutionary biology. It was evidence that drove him away from Darwinism. The same is true for my wife who is also a PhD scientist. The head of her department at Monash holds to an ID model although it took years for her to discover that as he held it close to him so his career was not threatened. I too support different views. Intimidation from whatever side hurts science.
So your argument is…I know people who believe this? Can you give me the figures of academics and people in the scientific field you are connected to who don't hold to an ID belief? Would love to know the figures there!
@dm01: The majority don't hold to ID although it is difficult to ascertain exact figures as people who do are reticent to openly state their position under the current climate. My point is that there are enough dissenting voices from respected scientists to warrant objective investigation rather than blindly towing the status quo line.
@INFIDEL: I agree, look at all the professors being sacked or punished for suggesting the heretical belief that there are only 2 genders! Universities are no longer about learning and truth and haven't been for a long time, they are mere bastions of establishment thinking and in any real university NO line of enquiry or discussion would be banned or discouraged. In the end though, like all western 'education' establishments, in order to 'pass', all you have to do is parrot back the 'truth' that they feed you and don't question it too much or cause dissent.
@EightImmortals: Where is not rewarding people who parrot back the 'truth' & conforming. Schooling rewards & trains us that way.
I wish it wasn't that way, but that's only a wish!
In my own University teaching I championed the concept of Uncertainty - the more we think we know, paradoxically the less we may know & understand. It's necessary to go beyond our limitations. I find it exhilarating, others find it very scary!
I invited Artists into my business lectures. I ran play workshops for adults to change thinking & develop creativity in Science…
Yes, that was not welcomed by some lecturers who tried to have me removed, circulated gossip & lies. But the University supported me. Lecturers told me I was setting "too high standards" - meaning they might have to change & gain new skills. I was simply learning & teaching - something they had forgotten long ago.
But it probably happens in all workplaces!
But why are you believing this gossip? It's being amplified by people who want to take advantage of people believing gender wars etc are every where!
Because it reinforces your own beliefs??
All groups, including alternative groups in our society expect the same sort of dress & thinking from its believers. It's always been like this, as far as i've known.
Almost all organisations have hierarchy, disparities, cliques, & disputes. Social & other conformity is enforced, even if the process is usually invisible.
Are you saying
…Religions welcome challenges to their beliefs??
They seem the most difficult organisations to change!
…That you welcome challenges to your firmly held beliefs?
…Or I do?
I am excited when my old beliefs are challenged - it shows I am alive & learning.
I've screamed with excitement running out of a Museum in Seoul when I learnt something that went against what I had believed & taught - a wonderful realisation!
But I've always been an outsider, observing & consulting groups & organisations, rather than working from within. It gives me a different point of view. But it's still too easy to believe my own BS😉
It's hard to see our group from within its system, but easy to pick fault with others outside our system.
I spent 2 weeks in August staying with & interacting with visual artists.
Why? To step outside my usual realm, to challenge my thinking & beliefs. After 10 days I had an epiphany! A wonderful experience of understanding & insights.
On a trip to Sydney, I had breakfast with a Californian Republican & ardent Trump supporter, who challenged me as to why I held my pet beliefs…
And then dinner with a 72 year old Socialist who grew up in impoverished working class East End of London. He never wanted to change & wanted to "kill" Trump!
Both strongly challenged my beliefs - I thanked them.
All systems protect themselves from change until change is inevitable!
Others always want to profit from change, to line their own pockets, entrench their power,…
A good sense of humour is always helpful. Seems you have one👍
@INFIDEL: Great post man, looks like we're on the same page…generally speaking. :)
You asked a couple of questions though.
"Are you saying
…Religions welcome challenges to their beliefs??"
Not at all, I was merely commenting on the university culture by itself. As you said, all human groups have the same foibles regardless of their location.
"They seem the most difficult organisations to change!"
Indeed, I suspect you know the answer to why that is though. Added to the usual human liabilities that you mentioned, most 'religious' (I hate that word)people believe that their beliefs are 'true' and if something is 'true' in the real sense of the word then it cannot be changed. And while I agree with that in the logical sense, it still raises many questions about whether an individuals or an organisations 'understanding' of a thing is correct or not and whether that particular thing is provable anyway? I find in most areas that in the end, if we are being honest we have to take a leap of faith at some point regardless of whether your worldview is theistically or atheistically based. It's the ongoing journey of discovery that I find exciting. Paradoxically, the more I learn, the less I seem to know and yet for all the emerging grey areas there are still 'buffers of stability' or guidance that don't seem to change.
"…That you welcome challenges to your firmly held beliefs?"
I used to and I think I still do to a certain degree, the thing is that my current beliefs are the opposite to what I believed for the first half of life (which were received, like most I presume, osmotically through society at large which I never questioned) and have eventuated from MUCH study, reflection and investigation. The upside to that is that I have found answers that seem to 'work', are internally logically consistent and seem very consistent with reality as a whole but the downside is that I haven't really heard any new objections for many years (not meaning to sound arrogant if possible). :) Fortunately having a high degree of confidence in the validity of my basic beliefs I am freed up to explore reality in other directions that seem to be on a different level from the usual topics of thought, distraction and conversation.
"I am excited when my old beliefs are challenged - it shows I am alive & learning."
Yup, when you're green you grow and when you're ripe you rot. :)
Hope all that makes sense.
"A good sense of humour is always helpful. Seems you have one."
Hey thanks, I usually keep it in my sock drawer with my personality. :)
@EightImmortals: Makes sense to me!
Before I studied at uni, I was certain about my knowkedge, beliefs, and thinking. The more I learnt, the less certain I was.
In my first week, we were out in the field. The instructor asked what were the pile of shells beside the river. I proudly answered "A midden!".
I was being introduced to uncertainty & hypotheses testing - a basis of science. While I had been told it was an ancient midden by a local Murri (aboriginal)… Was that true? How could we test the hypothesis?
At first I was annoyed for being shown up in front of my peers. Later I realised I was being socialised into a way of thinking important in my field of study.
It was not enough to believe, but be able to prove. And that is often very hard work.
Believing makes life less complex & manageable in some ways😉 But I prefer challenges.
And some areas are outside the scope of Scientific proof!
I can't believe I used to believe what I believed years ago😉
I would like to think that is wisdom that comes with time, but I still make some of the same mistakes!
when you're green you grow and when you're ripe you rot. :)
I really like that😊
I hope no one ever considers me ripe😉
@INFIDEL: hah, nope, when you start to figure things out they'll just think you are 'pompous and faggy' :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd0jOtxHWDQ
:)
@EightImmortals: That's not the version of the story I remember from Sunday School😉
I think many already think that of me! Fortunately I don't care.
@EightImmortals: As for parrot back the 'truth'…
I had many interesting roles & positions at uni - while still an undergrad student…
I was called in to resolve a dispute in a business school teaching team.
The lecturer had made a small mistake while teaching. He told his team to mark that mistake as correct in exams.
Of course the students should not be penalised for their lecturers mistake…
The team refused to mark a mistake as correct & the lecturer refused to admit that mistake to his students.
My support was with the team. If a student went out & told people what he believed to be correct, or taught it… It could have more serious consequences than the reputation of the lecturer.
My solution: the teaching teams corrected the mistake during tutorials with small groups of students. The lecturer looked the other way & didn't lose face.
[It is like a moral tale. Also known as Rakugo in Shinto traditional storytelling, in Japan]
Sometimes this is how wrong information moves out into the world. A small mistake or rumour is repeated & becomes fact.
Same happens in telling stories. The mistake over time is built into the story. No one believes it could ever have been another way!
(I've appeared on Japanese TV, performing Rakugo - in English😊 Hope I didn't make any mistakes!)
@INFIDEL: I know what you mean and I've found that goes for many things we are taught (or told to believe). Unless we question everything until we are personally satisfied that we have the correct, most likely or at least reasonable answer to a particular issue we are doomed to be controlled by those we accept as 'authorities'. The current crisis in science is a great current example of what you meant IMO. Many other examples exist from the 'fake news' spread through mass media to the ambiguous 'truthiness' of wikipedia or Snopes etc. A less controversial issue would be the rumour that you can only digest 30g of protein in a sitting which is what most body builders still believe but it was some bad info from a study back in the 80's. On the topic of the thread, most people are still taught that Haeckels embryos show 'evolution in the womb' so to speak whereas they have been discredited for more than 100 years.
Examples abound but from what I've seen, one has to reach a certain point in their personal growth before they are ready to begin their search and nobody can be forced down that trail. A bit like the Matrix I guess …only you can't be plugged back in if you change your mind later. :)
@EightImmortals: A Professor of Uncertainty suggested all textbooks should have blank pages at the end of each chapter, so students could grasp that the knowledge needed updating.
Another Professor taught me that medical textbooks up to the 1960's showed all babies were deaf. Mothers knew that wasn't true.
Media runs with the more interesting stories, even if not fully researched. It sells!
So medical stories covering diet like you pointed to - stick around in people's minds. Later correction of stories never grab attention.
Aluminium plaques were found in dissected brains of those who died after dementia. The media associated the aluminium in the brain with commonly used aluminum pots. There was never a link, but many still believe it. No one wants the risk of dementia, so clutch at anything to avoid it!
I travelled with a documentary maker, who exposed the work of anthropologist Margaret Meade. She asked young islander women about their sex lives. That was a popular topic in 1950's USA, but taboo on the island. (So they made up stories.) She wrote up her paper & it became sensational. Her career was made & her research never questioned… Until after her death by an Australian researcher & the documentary maker!
I used the documentary to challenge my students to ask questions of all research!
Enjoy your questioning😉
There are thousands of scientists from the world's leading universities including heads of departments who are coming out on the side of ID.
What percentage of them are old white men, born and raised in "Christian" societies?
@dm01: Don't worry - they were prepared for that… The person in the link "questioning Evolution" is a Russian female. I think they used Intelligent Design in preparing their response😊
A dissenting view on "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism" Probably plenty more…
The petition states that:
We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged. There is scientific dissent from Darwinism. It deserves to be heard.
It encourages more research, more funding into Evolution! In cash strapped departments, they would agree with that, sort of…
Notice there is no reference to ID, Creationism or religious beliefs, God was responsible, etc. It just calls for more research.
The roughly 700 dissenters who originally signed the petition would have represented about 0.063% of the estimated 1,108,100 biological and geological scientists in the US in 1999, except, of course, that three-quarters of the signatories had no academic background in biology.
(The roughly 150 biologist Darwin Dissenters would hence represent about 0.013% of the US biologists that existed in 1999.)
As of 2006, the list was expanded to include non-US scientists. However, the list nonetheless represents less than 0.03% of all research scientists in the world.
the list nonetheless represents less than 0.03% of all research scientists in the world…
So almost none agreed to the petition's call for a different view & more research!
In research, we would call that statistically insignificant😉
But who needs facts when you've got hope & belief😉
So the claim that the momentum is so strong that he would not be surprised if ID would be the position of the majority of scientists within a generation. is totally overblown!
It's been almost a generation (20 years) already since the petition surfaced in the US. No amazing change has happened!
It's like Jehovahs Witnesses I knew who would say to me, the end is about to happen, you wait & see. They waited, and reset the end dates. Probably still are waiting decades later!
@Kikiriki: I notice there is no reference in the Petition agreeing with ID or Creationism. It's not mentioned (for good reason?)!
It just calls for more research & questioning…
It's how you ask the question to get the result you want. A very old trick.
People would likely be unsure what they were signing up to!
Very tricky😣
Even then almost no scientists (as a percentage) from relevant fields signed up!
I worked on scientific research design & social research survey projects into people's thinking, after graduating in research design.
This would be a prime example of a misleading question / petition. Who would design such a waste of effort? Students would fail if they presented this work!
The petition is useless & proves nothing. It shows no support for ID!
Very unscientific😣
As I initially wrote it seems ID claims any different views in the field proves their belief! That's very unsound thinking😣
Wow, nice to see these guys are still going after all these decades.
I wonder if their business has EVOLVED over that time😉
Nice. :)
(I didn't neg you either ftr. )
I liked your open minded response
😊
Thanks, I bought some ebooks.
Good stuff OP - I've thoroughly enjoyed much of their content over the years and their presentations at our church
Ok skeptics who think creationists are backwards I challenge you to a debate here on basic science as we do science best
No one wants to play? So sad😿
That's an old but successful tactic to recruit used in cults, or oppressive regimes.
It's a game of who's belief is stronger… Or is it?
I've observed it's use in different "fringe" religious groups. It's fascinating, but may have terrible consequences for their subject.
It's best practitioners produce a beautifully choreographed game, where the subject doesn't realise what is happening & thinks they are in control - arguing from their prized belief😉
Followers engage nonbelievers apparently from the subject's own belief system. The follower uses the approved approach in their books or packs. Most are usually trained & tested in it's use.
If successful, it leaves the nonbeliever questioning their own beliefs & vulnerable to conversion.
I've demonstrated this on staunch atheists (who challenged Christians to justify their beliefs). They were stunned they could no longer justify their own beliefs - based on science, philosophy & logic. A friend told me it took weeks for them to recover.
I was not wanting to change their beliefs, just demonstrating the weakness of strongly held beliefs. A cult would use this vulnerability to recruit a new follower😉
So which book / pack are we playing from today?
Maybe the "Classic Refuting pack"…
Refuting Evolution 2 will prepare you to answer the best arguments thrown at you by peers, teachers, neighbours and sceptics.
…fun for all the family to play😉
I've played this game before - it would give me an unfair advantage😊
Sounds too complicated, why not just use an e-Meter? :P
Scientology was about my first contact with such a group. A friend disappeared into the group. I tried in vain to get her out, but that organisation wanted me to join first…
But got to experiment with an e-meter😉
@infidel an elaborate long winded way to decline my challenge whilst implying you would win
what a champion
and i wasn't going to refer to any creation.com books
Winning was never my way. That's no fun!
It's knowing the likely game that matters.
And like any of these games, any ulterior motive is always denied.
Afterall I've taught people the game!
But maybe you were being friendly to skeptics?
I'm skeptical about that😉
@thelastnoob: A: When I wake up😉
Now it's bed time😴
Not many signs of life to debate anything!
Back to that waffle you skipped - I'm up for a light snack!
@INFIDEL: ok well atheists generally have no idea when human life begins and also push gender madness on all of us
these 2 areas its easy to demonstrate that the bible and creationists are 100% correct
@thelastnoob: See you don't need anyone to debate with to prove your argument correct.
I'm superfluous!
@thelastnoob: Hey I trained on early AI program Eliza (an attempt to mimic human communication), way back.
I know this game!
I know how frustrating waiting for an answer is.
So there is the obligatory tease…
Just when you are about to give up, out it pops.
In life, or the beginning of life, timing is everything😊
But I didn't take it seriously & soon answered with "Banana", which caused Eliza no end of processing time😊
@thelastnoob: So is the answer banana?
What was the question?
Like with Eliza, the game can only continue if it is kept within strict parameters - under the control of the questioner…
@INFIDEL: Question: when does human life begin?
I appreciate specific details and less waffle/obfuscation
@thelastnoob: Ah, you are sticking with the script! Good!
That's what Eliza would do. Bring it back to the certainty of the original question😉
Or was that the question of origin?
(Early naturalistic communication programs had trouble distinguishing word order.)
And would ask what the question means to you…
And why are you asking it?
What does certainty mean to you?
And why is it so important to you?
Even running Eliza on an ancient PDP-10 mainframe, the response time was better😉
@INFIDEL: thanks i will add this to my growing compilation of atheist debates
waffle no substance avoidance etc
thanks for refusing to attempt to answer a very important serious scientific question
@thelastnoob: Ah, but I did answer!
I'm honoured you consider this a debate.
But why would you presume I am an atheist?
Your invitation was for skeptics.
Are you saying Christians can't be skeptics? Or be skeptical about Creationists??
And why do you keep a compilation of them? That's a strange hobby!
Same time tomorrow?
I do enjoy a good debate😉
(With a predetermined outcome)
@INFIDEL: My dad talks like this to cops but worse and they let him off
You are into philosophy im assuming
Im not sure if you are christian or atheist
I would like to debate someone of the many members here that cry out against these sort of deals
Its easy to rail against something but to show some original thoughts and ideas and debate against someone who believes in talking snake and noahs ark shouldn't be too intimidating right?
@INFIDEL: Actually since is as useful as talking to a brick wall Ill talk to brick wall
Atheist think they know what happened 14 billions years ago in a one off unobservable (sic) event but cannot figure out what happens millions of times a day (life)they think a 9 month old baby isn't alive or a human and will support an act which dismembers and mutilates babies and also sells their body parts
They also think that men and women do not exist the way they do and are interchangeable etc
this is not science but sickness in body, soul and spirit
church of satan is atheist mainly homosexuals who love baby killing and placing their testicles on dead persons graves
that's amazing
by the way what happened to your bedtime and also you should be a guest on the fallen state as you and the host can talk silly all day long and confuse everyone
atheists also support grooming children for sex in schools which is pedophile act
please no one respond to this comment with accurate specific information just neg it to death as that's what always happens
@thelastnoob: I think you're confusing your categories of people there!
Made me laugh! Thanks👍
As I said - the question you asked is not the real question. It is much deeper.
So no use wasting time on off the shelf scripts.
@thelastnoob: Well Pauline,
A person can & often do hold contradictory beliefs.
Nothing is as simple as your modern day depiction of Gomorrah would have it. Atheists can be nice people - I know a few.
Most atheists probably don't hold anything like the views you attribute to them.
Put your atheist compilations down & mix with a wider range of people to find out!
As Sammy J aptly put it…
If you're afraid of the dark, turn on the light & it won't be so frightening.
Or keep sitting in the dark - your choice.
And you do come from Pauline territory - the Bible Belt of Oz!
Plenty of interesting people there. Frock up & head for the Valley😉
Now's the time for my beauty sleep😴
Night Brissie🌛
@INFIDEL: finally some kind of response
yes i strongly agree about people holding contradictory beliefs it drives me crazy and ill usually take a shot
yes of course i didnt mean all atheists support those things but it is of their doing and they generally don't oppose it and are the strongest promoters of it
christian abortionists are as the same as meat eating vegans
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5RuIRluvEU
the host above is a strange man but good in this video
church of satan really is atheist and majority homosexual and donates to aborions and do place balls on graves
babys are sliced up and body parts sold - for medical, beauty etc
child sex grooming is happening when schools teach very young kids highly explicit sexual acts which is what pedos have been doing to get kids used to what is to occur to them
genderbenders are allowing sex offenders into women's toilets and they film and abuse women
these things are taught generally by atheists and are against the Word of God
@thelastnoob: finally some kind of response
That's not a response…
This is a response😊
Well if you poorly define a question as you did…
"when does human life begin?"
Is that on this planet?
Or in the womb?
Or something else?
Creationists have simple answers for these complex questions.
In our Western tradition, the second question is decided by our elected legislators, & the courts. They take advice from us and specialists in the field. And it may change at a later date, given new information.
Better ask them. Although you probably have.
You're only the second person in my long life (calculated from the date of my birth mind you!) to ask me that question.
The other was part of a blockade of a Brisbane fertility clinic where medical terminations were legally conducted. I was an observer with a Christian group.
So I never think about this question - the beginning of human life. It just isn't seen as important or relevant to me. It is also far outside the scope of my education in Science.
So I would never give a definitive answer about something I don't know.
I am more concerned about the other end of life… Death!
Now that's the bread & butter issue of religions! It's a great money earner & brings in people who have great fears of that event & what happens next.
Again that is not a concern I have.
Rather when does life end?
I've helped people through the dying process. I meet people with unasked questions about it.
I met Jay, a wonderful man, in Kyoto. We shared an intense, memorable day - while he worked up the courage to ask his questions. After a few drinks he shared his fears. He had terminal cancer, given weeks left to live.
After hours of questions & sharing, he finally asked if it was OK to kill himself. A moral / ethical dilemma. I answered that he knew the answer to that. (It was not my decision to make.)
Afterwards, he was so happy, as a Buddhist, so referred to me as Buddha.
That's just how I am with people.
Christians have referred to me as a "good Christian". We tend to see in others what we want to see & what we relate to.
*So that makes your thoughts about unknown others very worrying! What is going on inside your mind to imagine such horrors in others??
That is the "deeper question" I alluded to!
This year I was recently faced with the death of my Father. He had a cerebral hemorrhage.
I took advice from the specialists, and checked for signs of any response to stimuli. He turned his head to my voice & squeezed my fingers in response to my squeeze. (I've experienced the same response in baby monkeys.) His eyes briefly opened. But he was only responding at the most basic level.
It was his time to go. I still bargained with the Doctors to save him - but I knew it was his time. He was well looked after in Palliative Care, just assisted with pain management & breathing. I was with him as he took his last breath & became silent. His colour changed. He was gone.
As I've done before, I confirmed vital signs were not present & informed medical staff.
If he hadn't died in those last few days, a terrible decision would have had to be made by me, with advice from specialists, based on our scientific knowledge. I knew if he recovered he would never be the same.
So at what point does life end?
And what do we mean by life?
The questions are rhetorical. To reflect on, not to trample mindlessly over without respect.
[Got to go, my Japanese rice farmer friend in a mountain village of 200 wants to share his photos of his cute new Grandson. Now that's Life!]
Now where's my waffle?
Its easy to rail against something but to show some original thoughts and ideas…
I had to laugh at this given that you're pulling out all the usual inflammatory codswallop the church likes to bait people with, and haven't actually brought anything original to the table yet yourself.
Which denomination do you belong to? FYI…"I appreciate specific details and less waffle/obfuscation" 😊
@dm01: I've had a few good belly laughs. Quite an unexpected pleasure.
Of course not disrespectfully towards a fellow Ozbargainer.
@infidel
elaborate non answer again with philosophical musings
the question of human life shows that atheists reject basic observable repeatable documented science
it is important because it is the greatest mass murder of humans ever committed but you seem to not know this and not care
if you think the question was poorly defined you could have asked me instead of a long message
Infidel says "So I would never give a definitive answer about something I don't know." then assumes to know about creationists!
and you are completely wrong that creationists have simple answers to this question, you sure like to assume a lot which is funny coming from a guy who cant figure out what my question means and proceeds to write a long message about something
you show lack of respect towards life and are uncertain about the beginning and end of human life and what life even is.
you are asking about my thoughts its because of the things I have see often and experience
infidel I would enjoy debating you vocally with equal time since I directly answer a question.
@dm01 I go to an independent baptist church and can easily understand questions and give specific details
did you want to answer me when an individual human life begins? I assume you believe the ultimate fairy tale of evolution.
I have original ideas for the table but have not been engaged with anyone here in regards to this question as infidel isnt sure what life is or what my question is about!
I go to an independent baptist church and can easily understand questions and give specific details
The 'independent' part I'd already gathered, though Baptist wasn't my first guess to go with it.
did you want to answer me when an individual human life begins?
No, not particularly - your opinion on that is of no importance to me and is a distraction from more worthy questions. There's probably an anti-abortion spiel woven in to you answer that I don't really care to hear because, again, in the grand scheme of things, it's not all that important.
I assume you believe the ultimate fairy tale of evolution.
You can assume whatever you like; in my experience religious thinking does require a lot of assumptions to be made so it's no surprise to me if you do. I will say though, it's a bit rich calling evolution a fairytale if you're a subscriber to just about any major religions' accounts of creation.
I have original ideas for the table
No evidence of that so far, just the usual attempts to frame questions (and distort answers) in such a way that your cookie-cutter arguments can "take them down" the way you've been taught.
as infidel isnt sure what life is or what my question is about!
Something tells me you've conflated infidel's restraint and polite answers with ignorance and timidity - I suggest you learn to read between the lines a bit better, like the way infidel has been - they've obviously got you figured out pretty well already.
If my opinion conforms to reality it is the truth and my beliefs on human life are exactly this.
I assume you cannot answer this question which serves to bolster my claim that Christians do science better.
Evolution is basically the fairy tale of a frog turning into a prince over billions of years although the frog was a rock beforehand
If you tried to engage in the question you would have read original ideas. How many times do I need to explain this to you???
Infidel doesn't answer directly and leaves wiggle room of interpretation. That is not my fault or responsibility.
Funny thing is my original non-religious scientific challenge is still unanswered so please this is another time of many where this happens.
A victory for Creationism leaving opposition in the dark.
dm01 you are good at making bland assertions and accusations such as cookie cutter etc but you cant engage in the actual debate or attempt to answer the question. You should consider refraining from negging these posts if you cannot respond to a basic grade 3 level scientific question but make claims we are delusional.
You guys make it too easy. Happy to debate you or your friends or your professor anytime :)
Thanks again for a great laugh👍
"A victory for Creationism leaving opposition in the dark."
Oh I like that! Delusional thinking at its finest😊
As I said…
I do enjoy a good debate😉
(With a predetermined outcome)
Shame others don't want to play your game, by your script & your rules!
Don't forget to put this on your atheist collection & show your like minded buddies😉
all i wanted was someone to engage and not keep assuming atheism has answers
christian scientific beliefs were being scrutinized unjustly
outcome was supposed to be a proper debate not a silent victory due to silence from opposition
i showed my atheist mate and he couldn't respond but only say its doesn't prove God exists which I agreed and when i asked him the question he sent me a video of him as Satan talking to me so I am glad its more atheists without answers because they don't have any real answers
so much for atheists whinging about creationists but cannot engage us with some science and that counts as a win
The best bit was you losing it towards the end, letting us into your strange world🔥
Priceless!
It started off so civilised!
@INFIDEL: I thought I was losing it last night not today?
infidel you state i have delusional thinking but if you see the conversation my question was ignored and my challenge stands.
That does count as a win when opposition cannot and will not respond.
If my opinion conforms to reality it is the truth and my beliefs on human life are exactly this.
You're regressing to some circular logic there whereby your beliefs must be true, because you believe them to be.
I assume you cannot answer this question which serves to bolster my claim that Christians do science better.
I don't even know what question you think I've not answered here, but again you're free to make whatever assumptions you want; but understand assumptions don't actually prove anything.
Evolution is basically the fairy tale of a frog turning into a prince over billions of years although the frog was a rock beforehand
I do love your analogy, if only because it opens the door to a multitude of similarly-themed 'rock-frog-prince' analogies to illustrate the claims of creationists; all of which would be an order of magnitude more ridiculous than your evolutionary example here.
dm01 you are good at making bland assertions and accusations such as cookie cutter
You are wrong here; cookies (and their associated shape-making implements), when prepared correctly, are anything but bland!
but make claims we are delusional. …You guys make it too easy. Happy to debate you or your friends or your professor anytime :)
There's some more of that classic 'misquote-and-bait' I've come to expect in exchanges like these; sadly the area of the table-top reserved for your original thoughts and ideas remains empty and bare.
"your beliefs must be true, because you believe them to be"
That's all we need in life - to know what we think must be true.
If people don't believe what I believe it proves they're wrong.
And if I am attacked for those beliefs, it shows how right I must truely be!
Common in small groups (eg Cults), with extreme beliefs, who are outside the norm.
See persecution complex.
dm01 even if it is circular if it is true than it remains true so your logical fallacies are a fallacy in this case and you won't know since you cannot engage in the actual question. How can you know if my beliefs are not true and why assume they are not???
You haven't and said you wont answer question about human life if you are confused please read all text above.
Evolution textbook teaches life come from a rock and eventually turned into a frog etc I didn't make this up
dm01 more waffle from you after you refuse to engage the question but waffle on with this other stuff
you haven't engaged in a proper exchange as you just resort to quotes to prove your non-points need examples read your messages
get a 'real intellectual' to come here and debate or i am happy to call your professor and you can record it
2 vs 1 and its too easy since you both waffle on and avoid the question
dm01 if you wish to engage ill show you the original ideas or are you so slow this is the third time I have mentioned that????
you guys might have suspected you didn't stand a chance
dm01 you are most likely think you are a free thinker but you are just a parrot of atheism beliefs and nonsense and can't input any original ideas or thoughts please prove me wrong…..
"your beliefs must be true, because you believe them to be"
That's all we need in life - to know what we think must be true.
If people don't believe what I believe it proves they're wrong.
And if I am attacked for those beliefs, it shows how right I must truely be!
Common in groups, with extreme beliefs, who are outside the norm.
See persecution complex.
PSYCHOBABBLE save it for opera winfrey show stop using philosophy as a shield
I am winning due to lack of engagement and plenty of shallow claims and waffle
You would think you've won, even if all by yourself.
nah mate more assumptions as i said i expected atheists to try to show they know science and defeat my claim we do it better
infidel you are an unusual chap
If you truly believed you'd won, you wouldn't be arguing you've won.
@INFIDEL: you guys seem slow due to endless off topic waffle
you guys cannot answer when life begins because you have no idea
share this conversation with your friends peers and family and your boss please
and do you both consent to this being published i know infidel does but what about dm01?
@thelastnoob: Would you play by another person's rules in a process that was announced near the start had already been won by the other side?
Not very sporting!
No wonder no one wants to play with you!
Saw no original thinking - seemed from the usual script! I've heard that most of my life.
Very disappointing😞
Bye!
@INFIDEL: haha sore loser with a hit and run false accusation
be glad you will be providing others with many laughs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g79vcg6BIvU
be disappointed by your own inability to engage
haha sore loser with a hit and run false accusation. be glad you will be providing other with many laughs
The grace of god truly shines through you; what a wonderful example of jesus' love and humility you truly are! /s
More proof of the spurious claims born-agains make!! Your are left in the dark by the clever arguments of my superior primate-derived brain - my true-belief arguments destroy the religious fallacies you peddle!
I showed this to my Christian friend who could only remain in stunned silence for several minutes before recanting his religious convictions and then heading down to the pub for a coldy and a cigarette!
Better luck next time, noob!
@dm01: I apologise you are correct here and I stand corrected genuinely
Please note I am a sinner as such
I am frustrated by mindless rants and waffle and I really desire to engage and not get sideswiped
Dm01 please note that there was no engagement only waffle and blah blah as you guys refused to engage aside from the waffle
If you want to test my claims scientifically please stop hiding and do so
It is hard to deal with fools or people who come across as such and I don’t mean that offensively also it’s difficult to be gracious to people who have no care of babies being dismembered and dead body parts sold
If you want humility I’m happy to admit you are both better than I am yet not in this discussion but In real life terms
As far as love goes I wanted you to get all your tribes to engage me so I can demonstrate what I am saying is accurate and true so you can have confidence
I always have a high run away rate when I ask this question and when I get a response it’s really foolish
Since you know your logical fallacies I hope you don’t end on one
Anyway here’s another question
“Do you believe in absolute truth?”
Please don't buy this nonsense