Who's at Fault? (Yes Another One of These Posts)

Capo93 on 09/12/2019 - 12:20
Last edited 12/12/2019 - 21:33 by 1 other user

So, mates daughter driving in a Westfield shopping centre car park. Comes up to a give way sign, proceeds through the intersection and a car going against the flow that is marked on the road and sign posted hits the rear of the car. Her whole car had cleared past the give way line and she was almost through the intersection when the accident happened. Now GIO are saying shes at fault for fail to give way even know she was:

a) Almost through the intersection
b) No part of her car was still behind the give way line
c) other vehicle was driving the wrong way

So does this mean I can be driving down a one way street in the incorrect direction in Sydney and if a car fails to give way to me they are at fault?

https://ibb.co/WgqwC5N - Damage to rear of mates vehicle
https://ibb.co/dWz76jc - Poorly drawn mud map

Hopefully I have satisfied everyone's needs with photos and a poll. Sorry, no Ms Paint drawing.

!!! EDIT 09/12 !!!

More photos taken today. In the time we were there today taking the photos, not one driver looked left to check for a car coming the wrong direction.

https://ibb.co/qjmK74P - Notice the pole marked "Q", look at the size of it, hard to see something coming the wrong direction.
https://ibb.co/th9z3k0
https://ibb.co/wgmWGN2
https://ibb.co/4pnhttk

!!! EDIT 10/12 !!!

So got confirmation today that Casey’s car is a total loss write off. Now do you thinks it’s possible to write a car off if the other driver was following the posted speed limit of 10km/h? Still no word from GIO yet on the review of the case.

And to the people who are saying the road rules don’t apply in a private parking lot or private land or that’s its only an recommend and blah blah, I’m afraid you’re incorrect according to the law.

“The Australian Road Rules (ARR) apply to ‘vehicles’ and ‘road users’ on ‘roads’ and ‘road-related areas’. Each of these terms has a defined meaning – of which ‘road’ is the most commonly misunderstood.”

https://autoexpert.com.au/owning-a-car/legal/do-the-road-rul…

!! EDIT 12/12 !!!

Wrong way signs

https://ibb.co/Pwr80YZ
https://ibb.co/qkP15Bn

Poll Options

  • 68
    Mates daughter at fault
  • 282
    Other drive at fault
  • 34
    Each drive at fault
  • 34
    Cyclist at fault
Automotive

Comments

    • Broke-Ken on 09/12/2019 - 13:35
      +5

      OP is getting Dashcam Australia and OzBargain mixed up.

      All accidents posted on DA are caused by Cyclist ;)

    • brendanm on 09/12/2019 - 14:27
      +4

      Cyclist is always at fault

      • Euphemistic on 09/12/2019 - 15:50
        +6

        Except on ozbargain, then it is the uninsured driver at fault.

  • GG57 on 09/12/2019 - 13:21
    +2

    Change the scenario slightly:
    Turning left at an intersection, stop at give-way sign, check oncoming traffic from right, no traffic, GO GO GO.
    Pity about the vehicle approaching from the left, overtaking a bike or slow car.

    Give Way means give way to all.

    • ascorbic on 09/12/2019 - 14:35
      +3

      I understand your argument but to be precise, "give way" does not mean give way to all. For example, the give way sign at a left turn slip lane means you must give way to all traffic except vehicles performing a U-turn (Road Safety Road Rules 2017 Reg. 72 (4)). Frustratingly, it seems that many drivers on the road are unaware of this.

      Of course, it's sensible to proceed cautiously if there's a U-turning vehicle. However, if there were to be an accident in this scenario, the U-turning vehicle would be at fault.

      • Bad Company on 09/12/2019 - 14:41

        Yes but there are legitimate reasons for a car to reverse a short distance (i.e., in an out of a car park).

        Doesn't sound like the case in this scenario, but had it been the case, the daughter would have caused the accident regardless.

        • ascorbic on 09/12/2019 - 15:03

          Yes in OP's case, the daughter failed to give way:

          69 Giving way at a give way sign or give way line at an
          intersection (except a roundabout)

          1. A driver at an intersection (except a roundabout)
            with a give way sign or give way line must give
            way in accordance with this rule.

          2. Unless the driver is turning left using a slip lane,
            the driver must give way to a vehicle in, entering
            or approaching the intersection except—
            (a) an oncoming vehicle turning right at the
            intersection, if a stop sign, stop line, give
            way sign or give way line applies to the
            driver of the oncoming vehicle; or
            (b) a vehicle turning left at the intersection
            using a slip lane; or
            (c) a vehicle making a U-turn

          Since the other car was approaching the intersection and didn't fall under one of the exceptions, the daughter had an obligation to give way (note: this alone does not mean she is 100% at fault).

          I just wanted to point out that "give way" doesn't actually mean give way to all traffic in general.

          • Bad Company on 09/12/2019 - 15:48

            @ascorbic:

            I just wanted to point out that "give way" doesn't actually mean give way to all traffic in general.

            Yeah absolutely. Very confusing.

    • Capo93 on 09/12/2019 - 15:36
      +2

      What happens if it’s one way because it’s a blind corner to the direction the car coming the wrong way was coming from?

    • cameldownunder on 09/12/2019 - 17:48

      Change scenario: Car at "Give Way" turns left, checks for traffic coming from the right, no car, drives out.
      Same time driving on the road on the left of car at the give way sign: This car now overtakes car stopped in its way, moves into it's the left lane and hits car coming from "give way" front on. Who's at fault? Should the car coming out of the "give way" have anticipated that the other car would overtake a standing car, and get into the lane

  • [Deactivated] on 09/12/2019 - 13:23
    -2

    If one rule has been breached and directly contributed to the collision, that breach would be central to determining fault.

    All other indirect contributing factors will be irrelevant and may be examined as part of a different issue.

    The most glaring and direct cause here is failing to give way.

    • ribbonsofnight on 10/12/2019 - 16:43
      +1

      Everyone in the real world would say the opposite

  • WoodYouLikeSomeCash on 09/12/2019 - 13:25
    +2

    Just contact A Current Affair they will do the rest for you…

  • brendanm on 09/12/2019 - 13:30

    Seems like she didn't give way.

    The other driver was a goose, but she should have looked.

  • Bad Company on 09/12/2019 - 13:35
    +3

    I think it's unfair that OP's mate's daughter's been made 100% responsible.

    That being said, if I were a dictator I would have assigned most blame to the driver who disobeyed the arrow, but OP's mate's daughter will still get some.

    Edit: on the other hand, there are legitimate reasons for a car to reverse in and out of a parking spot, so in that scenario, daughter would have caused an accident anyway. I think I'm changing my mind, daughter should get majority of the blame.

  • Duram on 09/12/2019 - 13:40
    +3

    TIL that you can drive on the wrong side of the road lol.

    • GG57 on 09/12/2019 - 14:02
      +2

      Of course you can; have you never overtaken any other vehicle?

      • Never Pay RRP on 10/12/2019 - 20:54
        +3

        Pretty sure you are only allowed to overtake on the wrong side of the road "when it is safe to do so" and you would be found at fault in any resulting accident that you were involved in while overtaking like this

  • Iangh on 09/12/2019 - 13:57
    +2

    Interesting one! Road rules apply in car-parks so other driver at fault. But in a car-park I would look both ways even if the road is marked as one-way, so young lady at fault, maybe? What I don't understand is how the collision happened because usually everybody is going so slow I would expect the other driver to pull-up in time.

    If it were me, I would argue I didn't break any road rules as I'm going in the right direction. My failure was not showing good judgement in looking both ways but safe carriage didn't require it according to the signs. If GIO ruled against me I would contact the ombudsman with photos of signs/junction and google map showing junction. If somebody is in the wrong and an accident occurs it's not my fault.

    • HighAndDry on 09/12/2019 - 13:59

      but safe carriage didn't require it according to the signs.

      The sign that says "Give way"? The sign doesn't mention what directions to look at all.

      • GG57 on 09/12/2019 - 14:02
        +3

        Doesn't need to say which direction to look. The sign means that you have to give way to all other traffic.

      • Iangh on 09/12/2019 - 15:04
        +3

        At a roundabout, somebody is going the wrong way when you pull out. In your opinion, who is at fault if they crash into you? To your right the traffic was clear, so you pulled out. Who would the police throw the book at?

        It reminds me of the recent thread where so many people were convinced a reversing driver has right of way because they have started reversing. Going the wrong way or reversing against the traffic is wrong in the eyes of the law. If the road was clear when you looked right you are in the right and have nothing to explain.

        • HighAndDry on 09/12/2019 - 15:26

          If the daughter had looked, she would've seen the road wasn't clear.

          • cameldownunder on 09/12/2019 - 17:52
            +1

            @HighAndDry: Would she? Or was the other drive in such a rush that he sped out from parking, against the arrow and then hit the car.
            Looking at the drawing and the damage location, I think the other car was not even pulled out, when the daughter started to move into the crossing.

  • MS Paint on 09/12/2019 - 14:16
    +5

    Poorly drawn mud map

    this will assist in future efforts

  • Euphemistic on 09/12/2019 - 14:20

    By the location of the damage and typical speed in a car park, id say the other driver wasn’t looking, there should have been time to stop. However, give way sign is a trump.

    • cameldownunder on 09/12/2019 - 17:56
      +1

      give way sign is a trump.
      Not always, if the other care comes at such speed, that it would approach the intersection with not enough "warning time" for the exiting car, then its the approaching car's fault. Same bad situation of the car leaving the parking in front of the butcher, hitting the car that was turning right.

      • Euphemistic on 09/12/2019 - 21:29

        There’s always someone to come up with an exception.

  • Seraphin7 on 09/12/2019 - 14:44
    +1

    The daughter failed to give way. It is her responsibility to ensure the intersection is clear and safe to proceed through, regardless of other circumstances. All the other parts of the event are, ultimately, irrelevant.

    Likely to be a good lesson in ensuring the way is clear to proceed.

    • capslock janitor on 09/12/2019 - 22:01

      best case if daughter looked left, then right, then proceeded to go ahead, and during that time, the "wrong-way" car pulled out fast enough to not be seen, while daughter was looking right.

  • elgrande on 09/12/2019 - 15:09

    My only question is what were you doing at the shopping centre with your mates Daughter?

    • John Kimble on 09/12/2019 - 15:10
      +4

      Really good mates.

    • Capo93 on 09/12/2019 - 19:20

      I never said I was with his daughter when the accident happened.

  • ausdday on 09/12/2019 - 15:32
    +2

    The give way line says give way. It doesn't say give way ONLY to cars that follow rules.

    • John Kimble on 09/12/2019 - 15:38

      Checkmate ha

    • Capo93 on 09/12/2019 - 19:19

      So should the other car not following the rules be held accountable for anything?

      • ausdday on 09/12/2019 - 19:50

        Yes. If there is a police. Or they can be accountable if they hit a incoming car driving the right way.

      • Piranha2004 on 09/12/2019 - 22:24

        Car parks are typically private property and police generally dont enforce any flow rules.

  • rompastompa on 09/12/2019 - 15:45
    +1

    What about these circumstances, who is at fault:

    If the other driver had no license;
    Driving the wrong way down the road;
    Unlicensed vehicle;
    Was drink driving.

    Would OP's friend's daughter's car still be at fault? I would have hoped that the 'shouldn't be on the road' part trumped the give way sign? Still, always be aware 360° when driving, they could have hit a pedestrian, run away trolley, child etc.

    • GG57 on 09/12/2019 - 15:52
      +1

      OP's friend's daughter should still have given way.

      • rompastompa on 09/12/2019 - 16:01

        Yep, I agree, she still should have given way. I meant more of the insurance side. The insurance company will probably say both is at fault and charge the excess on both ;)

        Edit: I guess this is a civil issue - so OP is at fault. As law goes, driving the wrong way and failing to give way are both at fault.

    • HighAndDry on 09/12/2019 - 15:59

      Go the other direction - other car had a busted headlight (assuming daytime). They had an illegal fender mod. Etc. Doesn't matter - all unrelated to the actual accident.

      • trapper on 10/12/2019 - 13:07
        +3

        Traveling the wrong way is not unrelated to the actual accident though, it is directly contributory.

        A more obvious example would be if the other car was barreling through the carpark at 100 kmph when the accident happened.

        • HighAndDry on 10/12/2019 - 13:28

          Traveling that fast makes it harder impossible to spot the car coming.

          Going the wrong way doesn't, unless the other driver only checks one direction. They should be checking both directions anyway.

          • trapper on 10/12/2019 - 13:49
            +2

            @HighAndDry: I love this logic that a person going the wrong way through an intersection has less responsibility to give way than those driving through legally. You should drive all the way to work on the wrong side of the road, all signs will be pointing the other way so you will never need to give way or stop at an intersection again!

  • Trying2SaveABuck on 09/12/2019 - 15:59
    +6

    My opinion personally - Other drive at fault

    My opinion legally - your daughters mate is at fault still needs to give way

    I know the law is fken dumb but if you are on a give way sign you need to give way - just because the other driver is a fken moron doesn't excuse it.

    I am on your side though the other drivers insurance should be liable but it isnt the way the law works

    They should have called the police because he might of got done for culpable driving and a police report might strengthen your case however 99% of the time police will be to lazy and palm it off as a civil issue even though the other driver did something illegal - because they are fken useless and doing actual police work take effort

    It is a nasty hit too can only imagine what the other drivers car looked like feel for your daughter mate but it is simply just bad luck

    Also to all the keyboard warriors on this forum giving OP a hard time they need to get stuffed this could happen to anyone turning onto a one way you dont expect someone to be coming the other way

    • Capo93 on 09/12/2019 - 19:18

      Police would have fobbed it off, cars were drive-able. Other vehicle was a hilux ute or similar ute.

      • capslock janitor on 09/12/2019 - 21:03

        i really hope the driver that went wrong way gets stung with a big wake up call. what a prick i hate idiots like that and we have to let them go and repeat same offence later on

  • superdarkhumour on 09/12/2019 - 16:04

    Was there another sign saying left turn only? Or no-entry signs to the right of the mate's daughter?

    That's an interesting scenario though.

    I would look both ways if there was only a Giveway sign, but I would look one way only if there was a sign saying left or right turn only.

    It would be good to hear what other drivers would do in similar cases.

  • ssjwill on 09/12/2019 - 16:35
    +4

    other driver's story to insurance "I was driving down the wrong way in a carpark, passed a wrong way sign and ignored the directional arrows and got hit", surely this sounds worse.

    • cameldownunder on 09/12/2019 - 17:58
      +4

      Not "Got hit", "I did hit the back of another car"

      • capslock janitor on 09/12/2019 - 22:04
        +3

        Not even that- "the other car slid into me sideways" 😂

  • hawkeye on 09/12/2019 - 16:38
    -1

    There are no road signs on the wrong side of the road so the one way driver would have to use the give way to your right rule,.
    smashers at fault whitey already gave way to her right

  • Snake 4 on 09/12/2019 - 16:40
    +1

    Consider this.

    You approach a T-intersection that is one way from your left to your right. Your left is clear so you proceed right and some lunatic is traveling the wrong way and collides with you. There is no way you would be charged with failing to give way.

    • GG57 on 09/12/2019 - 16:49
      +4

      "When turning at a T-intersection from the road that ends, you must give way to all vehicles travelling in the road you are turning into (the continuing road)."

      • Snake 4 on 09/12/2019 - 16:54

        Total BS. There are many give way signs on through roads.

        Plus you haven't read my post.

        • GG57 on 09/12/2019 - 16:59
          +1

          It appears to be Road Rule 73 (VicRoads).
          What is the NSW equivalent?

      • smartazz104 on 10/12/2019 - 07:29
        +1

        Great, I will go driving the wrong way down a one-way road, hit someone, and insurance will find the other person at fault? Good way to get some free repairs.

    • wannagrababargain on 10/12/2019 - 09:44
      +1

      Happens on country roads sometimes except the "lunatic" in the wrong lane is just someone using the opposite carriageway to overtake, a perfectly legitimate manouver. The overtaker would not be at fault and is not expected to yield to lunatics who enter the carriageway without appropriately Giving Way first.

      • Never Pay RRP on 10/12/2019 - 21:03

        It's not a "perfectly legitimate manoeuvre" to hit another vehicle while you are on the wrong side of the road while overtaking. The overtaker would absolutely be at fault

  • Eeples on 09/12/2019 - 17:24

    Even though the road was one-way Casey should have checked both ways.
    Did she?

    • WoodYouLikeSomeCash on 09/12/2019 - 17:26

      Casey should have checked both ways.
      Did she?

      Her car got hit so obviously she didn’t…

      • Eeples on 09/12/2019 - 17:33

        I don’t think it is obvious at all.
        She may have seen the car and went anyways or she may have not looked and went.
        Casey, which was it?

        • cameldownunder on 09/12/2019 - 18:00
          +1

          Maybe she saw the car pulling out of the parking lot, and was expecting this car to turn left, according to the arrows on the ground.

        • Capo93 on 09/12/2019 - 19:14

          Casey claimed to have looked both ways. Check out a new photo taken today showing how she could have not see the other vehicle due to the big pole.

          https://ibb.co/qjmK74P

          • xuqi on 09/12/2019 - 19:27
            +2

            @Capo93: It's annoying but at the end of the day she went past a 'Give Way' sign, and was involved in an accident. It's one of those locations you need to inch your war forward, if you want to properly check for cars.

            All bets are off in car parks, so I'm always extra cautions when driving in them. People seem to forget the rules, common sense, or somehow misunderstand that normal road rules apply.

            "In the time we were there today taking the photos, not one driver looked left to check for a car coming the wrong direction."

            In all likelihood (despite whatever she says/thinks) given she wasn't expecting any traffic from the left, she either didn't check, or check closely enough for traffic from that side to notice the car.

          • Eeples on 10/12/2019 - 09:15

            @Capo93: So she claims she looked left…. that means she looked left and still didn't see the car.
            This means it is her fault for not looking properly.

    • capslock janitor on 09/12/2019 - 21:05

      MAYBE coz that massive pillar is in the way AND that's why they made it a One way from the right. just maybe

      edit: Nvm they all massive pillars but it would be easier to look attentively past 1 pillar than both sides, perhaps why they've made it one way to be that little it safer

      • Capo93 on 09/12/2019 - 21:44

        It’s probably only been changed to one direction in the last 12-18 months.

  • hawkeye on 09/12/2019 - 17:38

    Did whitey get a police report?

  • anglais on 09/12/2019 - 18:07
    +1

    I would say you are only required to give way to traffic moving the legal direction.

    You could use an example that it would be the same as pulling into a roundabout where you give way to the right, but somebody is going the wrong way around and hits you from the left.

    • Drakesy on 09/12/2019 - 18:22

      This would be my take

    • crentist on 09/12/2019 - 19:27
      +2

      Agreed. It doesn't make sense that they are subject to traffic control signs but the other driver is not, because they were going against legal traffic flow.

      That'd be like entering a traffic light intersection and T-boning someone in a cross lane who has a green light, but getting away with it because you entered from the wrong direction of a one-way street and thus had no red light telling you not to proceed.

      • 42 on 09/12/2019 - 21:35

        Was about to say the same thing. And to those who said she should have given way to all, who amongst you looks to the left in a roundabout to make sure there's no cars coming the wrong way to make sure you "give way to all"

        • Capo93 on 09/12/2019 - 21:46

          I literally said to my mate tonight after reading these comment “Just a thought, at round abouts you give way to you're right, anyway, that's irrelevant. I'm gonna jump onto the big roundabout tomorrow and go the wrong, good luck to any ****** that doesn't look left cause if they hit me, they're screwed and at fault”

          • [Deactivated] on 09/12/2019 - 23:37
            -1

            @Capo93: No rule regarding give way to right at the roundabout.

            • Never Pay RRP on 10/12/2019 - 21:07
              +1

              @[Deactivated]: You have to give way to cars already in the roundabout, so by the logic of all the posters saying it's the daughters fault, you'd have to conclude that someone driving in the wrong direction in a roundabout would not be at fault in the event of an accident….

    • Eeples on 10/12/2019 - 09:11
      +3

      You give way to all cars on a roundabout.

      • THL on 10/12/2019 - 13:02
        -1

        How do you give way to cars ON a roundabout?

        • Eeples on 10/12/2019 - 16:32

          You let them go by, then you enter the roundabout.

          • THL on 10/12/2019 - 16:36
            +1

            @Eeples: It's a tough audience here…I'll see myself out (obviously nobody got the joke) :(

      • trapper on 10/12/2019 - 17:11
        +1

        You will not be at fault if you hit some idiot coming around the roundabout in the wrong direction.

  • Vote for Pedro on 09/12/2019 - 18:21

    Who’s insurer is GIO?

      • Vote for Pedro on 09/12/2019 - 19:02
        +1

        Right. I probably deserved that.

        GIO is the insurer of mates daughters car or the other car?

        • WoodYouLikeSomeCash on 09/12/2019 - 19:06
          +1

          So, mates daughter driving in a Westfield shopping centre car park. Comes up to a give way sign, proceeds through the intersection and a car going against the flow that is marked on the road and sign posted hits the rear of the car. Her whole car had cleared past the give way line and she was almost through the intersection when the accident happened. Now GIO are saying shes at fault for fail to give way even know she was:

          TL;DR: Mates daughter is insured with GIO.

  • Snake 4 on 09/12/2019 - 18:32
    +1

    @anglais "You could use an example that it would be the same as pulling into a roundabout where you give way to the right"

    OMG not that furhy again.

    • Capo93 on 09/12/2019 - 19:15

      Valid point though. That example is literally the same scenario expect on a round-a-bout.

  • JimmyF on 09/12/2019 - 19:19
    -2

    Now GIO are saying shes at fault for fail to give way

    Looking at the photo, she was hit in the back pax door, Yep 100% at fault, she didn't allow enough time/room for the approaching car that was coming.

    • crentist on 09/12/2019 - 19:30

      She didn't give way, but they both broke traffic flow rules. How do you land on 100% NOT the person going the wrong way in a one-way lane

      • JimmyF on 09/12/2019 - 20:18

        She didn't give way

        Correct

        but they both broke traffic flow rules

        The car going the wrong direction as you put it broke a shopping center traffic flow rule, BTW those 'arrows' in shopping centers are not law. Just like parking spots for parents with prams.

        How do you land on 100% NOT the person going the wrong way in a one-way lane

        BUT the OP failed to giveway as they had been at a giveway sign and part of that is checking to make sure its clear and SAFE to proceed. It wasn't.

        • capslock janitor on 09/12/2019 - 21:22

          BTW those 'arrows' in shopping centers are not law. Just like parking spots for parents with prams.

          Just like people whizzing through the shops at 20kmh if the posted speed is 8kmh? Who would be in the wrong?
          It looks to me they may have accelerated nearly the same time (and quite short distance from pulling out from both parties) and very unfortunate outcome

          The drawing might not be to scale, but from image (4th spot from Q would be red car for example) WHY didn't the driver going incorrect way stop in time?

          And if Casey was turning left (resulting in head collision) would you still say she's in the wrong or the other idiot coming wrong direction?

          Things to think about.

          • JimmyF on 10/12/2019 - 09:40

            @capslock janitor:

            WHY didn't the driver going incorrect way stop in time?

            If you look at the picture you posted of the OPs, Casey 'popped' out from behind pillar Q, as you can see, the car going the incorrect way, wouldn't have seen her until she popped out.

            The OP said that car was in bay 4 based on this diagram https://ibb.co/dWz76jc, which is the red car in that picture. If they backed or drove out, they wouldn't have seen the arrow on the ground. Would it be fair to say that that red car could pull straight out and turn right, without realising they went the wrong way? I don't see any other signs in the picture that would say you went the wrong way.

            My guess is Casey didn't slow down for the give way sign and entered straight into the inter section, popping out in front of the other car before they could stop.

            And if Casey was turning left (resulting in head collision) would you still say she's in the wrong

            For sure, she failed to give way and make sure it was CLEAR. Casey is the one ENTERING the intersection from a give way sign. She is the one responsible to ensure the inter section is clear regardless if those people are in the right or not.

        • smartazz104 on 10/12/2019 - 07:29

          BTW those 'arrows' in shopping centers are not law. Just like parking spots for parents with prams.

          Explains all the morons I encounter…

          • JimmyF on 10/12/2019 - 09:42
            +1

            @smartazz104:

            Explains all the morons I encounter…

            To be fair, people who design shopping center car parks are the morons. The ones that designed ours made it a maze, with all these one way sections, that means a small country drive to get to the free car parks or 3 seconds driving against the arrows.

            What do you think people do?

            • smartazz104 on 10/12/2019 - 09:44

              @JimmyF: Look for the shortest distance between 2 points…

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