Penalty Rates for Civil Engineers for Weekend and Night Work

wudsapp on 08/12/2019 - 21:01
Last edited 08/12/2019 - 21:11

Hi,

I'm working for a engineering consultancy firm. I involve in a lot of construction-related site-based work where I work more than the usual 7.6 hours.

As Engineers are we allowed for overtime, if yes what percentage of our usual rates. I have seen a lot of places that they pay usual rate for the overtime. That is also usually capped for maximum of 10 hours.

We usually get the normal rate for night works and weekend works.

Is this normal for the industry I work in? I checked the professional services award but couldn't find a direct answer in it.

Education & Work

Comments

  • jjjaar on 08/12/2019 - 21:09

    What kind of engineering and what’s the work itself?

    • wudsapp on 08/12/2019 - 21:14

      civil engineering , construction work

  • [Deactivated] on 08/12/2019 - 21:12
    +5

    What does your enterprise agreement, contract, or HR people say?

    • wudsapp on 08/12/2019 - 21:14

      what is an enterprise agreement?

      Nothing mentioned in the contract. Haven't reached HR but my manager said this is the normal practice in the industry.

  • bobbieb on 08/12/2019 - 21:24
    +7

    Are you even on an hourly wage? I would expect even a first year graduate Civil Engineer to be on a salary. Best case you're maybe entitled to some sort of time-in-lieu for extremely long hours… It's highly unlikely you get paid for a few extra hours.

    • wudsapp on 08/12/2019 - 21:37
      -3

      on a salary. Not worrying about the usual extra hours at the office.

      This is when we go for site work usual hours are 12 hour days. Can take time-in-lieu for most of the work up to 10 hour days. My problem is whether we are entitled to any penalty rates for night work and Weekends.

      • bobbieb on 08/12/2019 - 21:46
        +5

        You're on salary, so you can't get penalty rates since you don't have an hourly rate.

        It's doubtful that your contract has anything specific beyond the usual "reasonable hours" clause. The best you can do is take a close look at the time-in-lieu policy. Some companies are quite reasonable, but others I've worked for have be over-the-top nasty (one twelve hour day in a given work week wouldn't have gotten you anything at those places.)

        • wudsapp on 08/12/2019 - 22:01

          Time in lieu only counts if I am doing work outside the office more than 7.6 hours. we can claim overtime on normal rates for some projects but capped for 2.4 hours a day.

          I think most companies are over-the-top nasty especially the project managers.

          It feels ridiculous when only getting time in lieu while all these other tradies get double pay for Sunday work

          • xuqi on 08/12/2019 - 22:29
            +9

            @wudsapp: Then go become a tradie.

            • wudsapp on 09/12/2019 - 05:27

              @xuqi: I wish.. too late now

              • brad1-8tsi on 09/12/2019 - 08:09
                +5

                @wudsapp:

                I wish.. too late now

                It's never too late to change careers.

                The tradies earn more than you because right now, they know more than you. They have years of experience and at the moment you are the professional equivalent of an apprentice.

                In about 5 years time, if you are good at your job, you'll earn the same annual rate or better and your body won't be stuffed and have skin cancers starting to form and kill you in 20 years time.

                • wudsapp on 09/12/2019 - 18:03

                  @brad1-8tsi: Being in the industry for 12 years.. 4 years studying..

                  Cannot sp3nd another few years as an apprentice

                  • brad1-8tsi on 09/12/2019 - 21:43

                    @wudsapp: If you think it's a company that doesn't reward hard work then move on to one with a better reputation… even if it's sideways.

                    You should be getting a promotion or decent wage rise every 2-3 years if u are doing the hard yards.

                    • wudsapp on 10/12/2019 - 07:08

                      @brad1-8tsi: Every 2 3years ??? Really

                      • brad1-8tsi on 10/12/2019 - 08:13

                        @wudsapp: For my first 15 years that's how it was. You were expected to apply for better positions or take on more responsibility in your current role and then you got pay rises and bonus. I worked for 8 different companies (some were not great moves but I had to give it a shot) and had 11 different roles in my first 10 years.

                        My 2nd boss told me that he expected me to change jobs every 12 months and that I should be in a role for a maximum of 2 years.

                        Maybe things have changed but I've been with my current employer 12 years and had 3 different roles and my previous employer was 17 years and 4 (very different) positions. (yes, I've been full time employed for 41 years and can almost smell "retirement").

                        I wish you the very best but you have to be pro-active in your career. Not once has a manager tapped me on the shoulder and offered me a pay rise or a new position and if an employer wasn't giving me opportunities for advancement or better money I moved on.

          • theHMASfriendship on 08/12/2019 - 23:01
            +1

            @wudsapp: Do a trade then.

          • whooah1979 on 09/12/2019 - 05:15
            +1

            @wudsapp:

            capped for 2.4 hours a day.

            It sounds like you’re required to have a 12 hour rest between shifts. You should thank them for looking after your safety.

            • wudsapp on 09/12/2019 - 05:30

              @whooah1979: yes.. that's what's in the book

              I did 13- 14 hour days all last week but can only put 10 hours to the timesheet. Should I really thank them?

              • brad1-8tsi on 09/12/2019 - 08:20
                +1

                @wudsapp:

                I did 13- 14 hour days all last week but can only put 10 hours to the timesheet. Should I really thank them?

                Some employers do that.

                If you think you are being badly done by then I can only suggest you put up with it for 12-18 months, learn as much as possible and move on. Keep in mind it won't be much different elsewhere in most private enterprise jobs.
                The rewards are there if you are good at your job. My GF pulls in a $30k bonus every year because she's available to work when they need her. She puts in the hours and gets the dollars.

                I think if you resent the hours you are being asked to do then you'll struggle for a long time.

              • whooah1979 on 09/12/2019 - 21:00

                @wudsapp:

                yes.. that's what's in the book
                I did 13- 14 hour days all last week but can only put 10 hours to the timesheet.

                What you may do is to tell your supervisor that you’re feeling fatigued when they keep you working pass your allocated hours. This may cause you pass out in your vehicle after a long day and crash into a senior manager’s vehicle.

        • stratbargain on 09/12/2019 - 11:06

          Just because you're on a salary doesn't mean you don't have an hourly rate.

          Most at my work is on a salary but the monthly payslip clearly shows how the monthly payment is broken down (hourly rate = salary / 52 weeks / 5 days / 7.5 hours a day)

          If we need someone to work on weekends/after hours we definitely pay our salary staff overtime for that work and it's based on their hourly rate (1.5X and then 2X depending on length of overtime)

          IMO If your workplace has trained you that regular weekend work/after hours work is part of your job and covered as part of your salary… it's worth reconsidering what your true hourly rate is and if you're happy working for that.

          • wudsapp on 09/12/2019 - 17:37

            @stratbargain: Well.. my salary slip does the same. We have a hourly rate.

            I tried claiming overtime 1.5 times once and got rejected by the project manager saying we are only eligible for the normal rare.

            • stratbargain on 09/12/2019 - 18:01
              +1

              @wudsapp: Then as I said, you need to look at how many actual hours you work and balance it against your salary, work life balance, flexibility etc and work out if your actual rate of pay per hour is worth it for the work you're doing and the benefits you receive.

              Only you can judge. If you're not happy with it look elsewhere.

              • wudsapp on 09/12/2019 - 18:06

                @stratbargain: Yeah, that's the only thing that make sense.

                But saying that most of the companies are similar. Unless you discuss about overtime rates in the interview and get it in the agreement, you will end up in the same situation.

  • POSITIVEVIBESONLY on 08/12/2019 - 22:49
    +1

    It sucks but that's the life of engineering consultancy. Salary means you can be working any range of hours, seen people pull 20-80hr weeks on the same pay.

    • wudsapp on 09/12/2019 - 05:31

      aren't there any laws in this country look after these people.. only seeing people leaving comnaies after they get sick of this

      • orangetrain on 09/12/2019 - 09:01

        I wouldn't be surprised that the laws have been weakened to look after the business people.

        Liberals are trying to destroy commie unions. Just look up union busting bill for the latest. And they have been in government for most of last couple decades.

        Remember work choices? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/WorkChoices

        Best I can suggest is job hop until you find a place that treats you well.

      • POSITIVEVIBESONLY on 09/12/2019 - 09:47
        +2

        It's so standard practice that if you're not willing to do the hours, they can easily hire a grad for the same price. There are hundreds of grads looking for their first job into engineering. The long hours, bad pay comes with the experience you gain and even if you're not learning anything, a few years at a big corp on your resume is what gets you in the a higher paying job.

        Learn the ropes, make connections, get the most out of your situation. Start looking and make the jump around 2 years into your first role, there will be heaps of opportunities.

        • wudsapp on 09/12/2019 - 17:40

          Exactly the point. Most of us say nothing with these extra work and no overtime due to no job security.

          They can certainly throw me out tomo6abd hire a grad. There are plenty of them without jobs.

          The problem is whether it is okay to be like this..

  • myusername on 08/12/2019 - 22:53

    7.6 hours day?

    wow i'm only waking up at around the 8 hour mark into my 12 hour shift

    • wudsapp on 09/12/2019 - 05:31
      +1

      ha ha.. 7.6 hours is what we get paid for..

      usually, do 12 hours or more..

  • Numlock on 08/12/2019 - 22:59
    +4

    Engineering consultancy is dog work. You may have to work overtime all the time and work from a tin shed. That's the life.

    • wudsapp on 09/12/2019 - 05:33

      that's sad…

      still, people think we get highly paid.

      • brad1-8tsi on 09/12/2019 - 08:23

        someone is getting highly paid because we pay our engineering consultants absolute truckloads of money.

        If you are fresh in the job you'll get lousy money and long hours. As you prove yourself the money improves.

        If it doesn't suit come and work for government. The money isn't great but the conditions are family friendly. You can't have it both ways.

        • Numlock on 09/12/2019 - 17:41

          The money isn't great but the conditions are family friendly. You can't have it both ways.

          Oh trust me, plenty of useless engineering middle managers in Australia who don't do much and earn a great living and work 9-5.

        • wudsapp on 09/12/2019 - 17:44

          I don't really think it improves with time. I have seen how salaries grow in consultancies..

          The senior you get more responsibilities and more hours.. I have seen people working weekends without claiming anything to avoid blowing budgets.

          The company should be earning a lot , that I know. If my hourly rate is $30 , We charge a client $120

  • John Kimble on 09/12/2019 - 03:52

    Thank you for your service

    • wudsapp on 09/12/2019 - 05:33

      :(

    • Tee Rex Arms on 09/12/2019 - 14:07

      Sarcastic comment but still disgraceful.

      • John Kimble on 09/12/2019 - 14:09

        It actually wasn't meant to be, although I see now why it could be interpreted that way.

        I have a BIL who is a civil engineer. It's an important "cog" of the "construction machine".

  • nedski on 09/12/2019 - 08:02

    Call the Australian Building and Construction Commission's 1800 line. They have a Wages and Entitlement team that can assist with this information. Their number is 1800 003 338

  • alxth on 09/12/2019 - 08:03

    For what it's worth, you can contact Fair Work to get clarification on your awards and penalty rates etc without having to name your company or take any further action. Just if that will give you peace of mind.

  • pjcook on 09/12/2019 - 08:16
    +2

    You are in a profession as a rule you would have been given letter of offer that stipulates the T&C's of your job role. Basically that is it, if you accepted the offer you accepted the T&C's.

    You sound like a graduate, if so you need to earn your stripes and suck it up. The gravy only stats after a few years of proving your with.

    • wudsapp on 09/12/2019 - 17:45

      Not a graduate, I have about 12 years of experience

      I know this is very common for graduates too

      • pjcook on 10/12/2019 - 07:54

        12 Years experience and you do not understand how the salary packaging works…….. hmmm

      • esty on 11/12/2019 - 13:38

        12 years experience, mate you'll be on 120k+ putting you in the top percentile of income in Australia for people that probably work the same amount of hours. ….(i work for a tier 1 Engineering Consultancy firm, one of the A's ;))

        • wudsapp on 18/12/2019 - 19:41

          I wish I could get that much.. all my experience is not in Australia.

  • SydBoy on 09/12/2019 - 08:23
    +1

    EBA for your company should spell out entitlement. So first ask copy of that from HR. It is highly likely they will tell you that your profession/contract doesn't fall under EBA (enterprise bargain agreement).

    If you are not part of EBA then your contract spells out clearly how many hours you have to work and how overtime is paid.

    Normally in consultancy and construction those who are engineer are not entitled to overtime payment as they are not part of EBA, but normally company allows time in lieu or day off for the weekend work. Those employee who are not on EBA also entitled to bonus on performance that EBA employee don't get.

    Now if you are new then not much you can do as exploitation is very common in our industry. Get some good experience then leave and for next job bargain entitlement upfront before signing contract.

    Good luck

    • wudsapp on 09/12/2019 - 17:48

      I'm pretty sure we are not with EBA. No mention about overtime in agreement. Usual hours are 7.6 per day or 38 per week

      • SydBoy on 10/12/2019 - 06:25

        That is very standard industry practice, you can only ask how you charge or recover additional hours you put in the project.

        Now, remember because nothing has explicitly written in contract ask above question in writing through email for your records.

        Normally in government jobs engineer are part of EBA and hence they get paid double time for weekend or one & half time. In private they keep engineer on salary wages without EBA so they provide time in lieu or cashout weekend work on normal day rate.

        Big companies also provide flexibility so you don't have to do 38 hours per week and there is no time sheet like government agency. Private company also give bonus that you don't have if you are on EBA.

        If you feel that you have not paid correctly then find another job but you won't be able to challenge company legally.

        • wudsapp on 10/12/2019 - 07:25

          We do have to put time sheets every week. What they have asked is to put the additional hours separately as non payable or donated time.

          No bonuses, never heard of anyone receiv8ng a bonus in the industry.

          No one speaks about this issue, and leave for a different company when they get fed up. It's just a never ending cycle.

          I know few senior people joined government jobs due to this problem but for less pay.

          • SydBoy on 10/12/2019 - 08:49

            @wudsapp: Don't worry about lower pay in government as they pay overtime so the gross year end salary will be high. There are private entity that pays good pay plus bonus so you can try that as well.

            All you can do is put extra time in writing in timesheet. And when you leave ask them to pay for it in writing and if they don't then you go through fair work. Make sure your timesheet is signed by supervisor as a evidence that it was approved timesheet.

            With liberal government in NSW permanent jobs are disappearing and replaced with temporary jobs without any incentive…so make sure you vote right political party if you need workers right preserved.

  • Seasoned Salt on 09/12/2019 - 09:09

    Put in the hard work now and be willing to take on additional responsibilities, and management will recognise the efforts.
    Continue whinging and you won't find yourself moving up the corporate ladder very quickly.

  • savage bargain on 09/12/2019 - 09:14

    Depends on the contract, but if it is a situation you can get overtime, it's usually a set hourly rate. There were times I would get a site uplift if I worked away for a long period, but it was the same rate regardless if I did day or nightshift. The uplift was arranged through an update in the contract.

    Unfortunately, it's the nature of salaried engineering. Not just consulting - the clients I know well also are in the same situation. It is a little better in site based roles than in the city where the contract is set up for site, but then I know some senior clients on site working long hours who weren't getting anything in addition to their salary for it… And it's a situation that affects many other professions too.

    It's tough when you're starting out, but I found it didn't feel so 'forced' once I found an area of work I'm interested in and engaged with. Then it became less about the hourly rate and more about the opportunities/projects I could get into.

  • OzHunterNSW on 09/12/2019 - 10:54

    Check your contracts

  • John on 09/12/2019 - 11:41

    From what I know the entitlements are not regulated by law. Its as per your contract agreement and its different from each companies. I've been in the industry for 12 years, mostly paid as contractors. But over those, I don't think I ever had penalty rates for night work/weekend/public holiday. I think those are more for retail/hospitality industry.

    Overtime and site uplift are also different from each company and projects.. its also dependent on market conditions, when engineering role is in such high demands there's a lot of benefits being offered to keep the engineers working for the company. These days, not as much.

  • Summoner on 09/12/2019 - 12:04

    Your award very much depends on the work you actaully do.
    By the sound of your brief description, you might be covered by Building and Construction General On-site Award 2010.
    http://awardviewer.fwo.gov.au/award/show/MA000020#P187_15214

    Employement contract usually outlines which award you are in, so refer to your contract first.
    Then, contact fairwork for further advice. They provide free advice over the phone.

  • HeWhoKnows on 09/12/2019 - 17:03
    -2

    OP obviously has NO IDEA!

    It has nothing to do with your job and everything to do with your contract or "letter of appointment" if you are full time employed.

    Whatever is written there applies to OP and just OP regardless of what others are being paid or what they do.

    Generally speaking -
    If you are a casual then you get paid per hour you work and nothing more.
    If you are part time or full time and paid wages then you are paid by the hour so every hour counts.
    If you are on contract or paid a fixed salary per week/month/year then read my lips!

    • wudsapp on 09/12/2019 - 17:53

      If the contract has no mention about overtime, night work and weekends.

      I'm on fulltime employment

      • xyee on 09/12/2019 - 23:19

        Check the T&Cs in your contract regarding overtime hours. I’ve had clauses stating that I would be required to work reasonable overtime and that the base remuneration has taken this into account. The keyword here is reasonable. Here’s a link to what FW says about reasonable/unreasonable overtime. https://www.fairwork.gov.au/how-we-will-help/templates-and-g…

        There were a few cases where the employer was ordered to backpay the employee for overtime hours worked.

        • wudsapp on 10/12/2019 - 07:12

          Has the same caluse on mine too.. i guess 12 hour day without direct travel is pretty unreasonable.

  • 203132 on 10/12/2019 - 08:17

    Construction site based work has always been like this.

    You should have anticipated this as part of you job and negotiated higher to compensate for the longer hours.

    Reasonable overtime should be defined by company policy.

    Depending on your contract, if it says you will be anticipated to work night shifts then you may not get any pay depending on your employer/client.

    Some clients will be happy to pay night rates. Night shifts should be supplemented with rest days.

    All tier 1/2 construction companies have their own ways of doing it.

  • Euphemistic on 11/12/2019 - 11:15

    I had a salary job in construction Industry (roads) that was 38hr week including ‘reasonable’ amounts of overtime. Never did work out what reasonable was.

    However, when working a night shift or a weekend shift (min4hr, 1st weekend per month ‘included’ as reasonable) we were paid a penalty payment per shift. The rate wasn’t that high, but made a reasonable difference to the pay packet. 20years ago it was around $100 per night shift, $300 per weekend.

    Look in your employment contract, letter of offer etc. check the EBA for other employees, contact fair work etc.

  • yoyomaster123 on 15/12/2019 - 13:17

    Construction work is always going to be 10-12 hrs a day including some time on the weekend. If you are working site-based with a consultancy then its almost certain you will be working those times with no extra pay (per hour).

    Likewise, because you're at a consultancy its likely your salary won't reflect the additional hours unlike construction engineer salaries which tend to be 15-30% higher on average.

    There is no professional EBA, don't listen to people here talking about shift bonuses, or night shift penalty rates because those will almost never apply to you especially because you are on salary.

    The time sheet you submit is for company billing purposes only and really has nothing to do with your salary as you will be paid (more or less) the set amount each pay period.

    It's a commonly known fact that even labourers such as TAs or spotters or lollipop chicks usually get paid than most engineers on civil infrastructure projects. Skilled trades can easily out earn even the project manager on projects mainly because of the aforementioned shift bonuses, overtime and night shift rates (which do not apply to you).

    Moving forward, just try and learn as much as you can and switch jobs into something better paying. If you are already site based moving construction side can easily net you +30-40% salary and you are already working construction hours.

    Otherwise you can request to rotate back to office based role. Have a look at payscale or glassdoor to compare consultant vs contractor salaries to determine the ideal career path for you personally.

    • wudsapp on 18/12/2019 - 19:38

      Thanks mate… best comment so far.

      This feels so wrong though.. not sure I want to move to construction based role now. But I will try my best to get back to the office.

      So true that the spotters get paid more than engineers.

  • Vote for Pedro on 21/12/2019 - 13:27

    Check in with your union, Professionals Australia (formerly APESMA - Association of Professional Engineers, Scientists and Managers Australia).

  • johnnywu34 on 23/01/2020 - 17:54

    This is normal in the industry and most cases, you can't expect anymore. If you don't like it, I'd suggest you to move to another company like what many others do.

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