I'm looking at doing a spontaneous holiday and Hong Kong, has anyone been ?
are the protests happening everywhere? or centrally located?
are the tourist destinations still open?
Flight from SYD - HKG return is only $512 (at time of posting) on Virgin Australia, direct flight
Hotels I'm seeing Hyatt hotels @ around $200 per night. Most of the hotels I'm seeing are cheap.
Or I can hop on a ferry and go over to MACAU?
Just make sure you don't speak Mandarin or appear to be from mainland China.
If you look like an ozzie, they might passionately talk to you about their fight for democracy with their broken English before beating up others up should they not agree with their behaviors.
Hotels I'm seeing Hyatt hotels @ around $200 per night.
Maybe save some money, plus get something nicer and more of a home, by getting an airbnb.. If they have airbnb there ?
Hahaha my very worst Airbnb experience was in HK. It was so bad Airbnb actually refunded most of the charge after I sent them photos of the disgusting place.
Wow. I haven't risked it, yet, with using any hosts other than the superhosts.
I read the conditions for superhost and it's very strict. ie. They have to basically have all 5 star reviews, no complaints, consistently, for quite some time, before they are marked as superhost .
I felt as secure as booking a hotel, which was important to me because I would hate to arrive and then have host stuff me around and/or find it in a terrible state.
In Aus the superhosts are often a very cheap option too. In order to be superhost, they have to frequently host property, so if they aren't well priced in that market, they shouldn't ever reach superhost (logically, market forces would lead to their property not often booked when priced too high).
Just arrived back in Oz this morning after a couple of days in HK arriving by bus over the bridge from the Mainland.
Deliberately chose somewhere to stay to avoid issues.
On Saturday they closed the metro, nearly all shops remained closed and HK Disney delayed opening to 1pm (presumably to give staff time to make alternative arrangements to get to work).
No issues getting into the airport (by booked transfer - not train). No traffic even.
My view is you would be you are probably mostly ok on the weekdays but on the weekends you would need to plan to stay in your hotel or resort.
Have a friend who lives there
Took his kids to Disneyland the other day and didnt have to queue for any rides - surely that’s a win!!
Riots does have its benefits.
Did Mickey have a mask?
My Dad, who is white, had a layover there back in August. His bus couldn't get through because of the protesters. He had to get off and walk the rest of the way to his hotel. That said, a few young protestors asked if he was OK, where he needed to go, and if he needed help with his luggage!
For those interested to know or want to know the truth why the first person got shot by a live round a few days ago. Take a look at this YouTube clip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmRdLMAUROE
I don’t see what the big deal is with the HK police using lethal force as self defence.
Australian law enforcement officers shoot and sometimes kill suspects at least a few times a year.
http://theconversation.com/shoot-to-kill-the-use-of-lethal-f…
He was armed with a knife.
The protestor was armed with a tiny ass pvc pipe that can inflict non-lethal damages especially with the shit ton of gear that cop had.
The rioter and his mates where armed with iron bar, hammer, spanner, etc. They attacked the police so it is expected that the police use force in self defence.
@whooah1979: funny how when a video of 5 police bash a protester rolled into a ball on a train is explained as appropriate use of force. When a protester swings a baton he gets shot. All good
@whooah1979: @whooah1979 The person who got shot was holding a PVC pipe, and a cookie monster surfboard as a shield. Are you one of the infamous wumao's?
@squaredonut: Yes but there were other people whacking the cop on the ground whilst in a fetal position with hammers and the works.
Cops are allowed to shoot if they believe their life or someone elses life is in danger. This is the case here and pretty much everywhere else in the world.
Would you say it is unreasonable for him to think that moment, his colleague could get seriously hurt and perhaps die if he did nothing to stop the people that surrounded him?
If your answer is no to the above - let me ask you another question. Could I potentially kill you I were to hit you in the head with a hammer with reasonable force whilst you were laying on the ground in a fetal position? The answer is obviously yes and therefore justifies the action of the police.
I've seen ample examples of policing in Australia in USA shooting lightly armed civilians due to believing their life or someone elses was in danger. This is no different unless you apply a ridiculous double standard (which appears to be the case).
Rather than use an ad homenium, focus on the debate at hand mate. There is no reason to call anyone that disagrees with an insult, it doesn't add any weight to your argument (or lack thereof).
Dumb rioter, armed with a tiny pvc pipe vs police pistol. Tell it to the marines.
Seven News reporter sighted in Mong Kok roughly 30 mins ago.
Saw him on others news video. You can see a bit of him trying to interview a hk tvb actress that got beaten up…
For the record HK people are normally very gentle. Their 'protests' are nowhere near like 'western' protests.
Congee doesn't give you much muscle for the hustle.
Nah, I've seen the no janken signs. It can get out of hand.
Just don't. Go to Vietnam instead.
Here is your Tourism bureau of Vietnam :)
Top activists Joshua Wong and Denis Ho who convinced the US senate to withdraw HK's special status had Vietnamese parents who were unsuccessful refugees.
A number of young protestors are descended from unsuccessful refugees.
I would be more worried about the metro system being arbitrarily closed during your visit. It will make getting around the city very annoying, slow, and expensive.
If you were already booked I would probably still go, but why choose HK as the destination of your spontaneous holiday right now?
Times of political turmoil and violence are never 'safe', anything could happen really.
Go to South Korea or Japan or somewhere nice and civilized in Asia.
Much better than HK.
Japan is full of rioters. I can tell by their facemasks.
Why doesn't the Chinese government just round up all the protesters and send them to the re-education camps I have read about. Civility and safety restored to the city.
Kind've disrespectful isn't it? Their country is undergoing mass protests and you just want to go sightseeing? You seriously can't wait? This is why Aussies have a bad rep everywhere… Bali, Japan…
Helping the country economy by spending in their country. What's wrong with that? Its not like the whole country is closed for business and gone protesting.
Not everyone that is against the Riots in Hong Kong is a China supporter or brainwashed by the CCP.
But everyone in support of the riots in Hong Kong right now is in favor of the use of violence to destroy the entire fabric of Hong Kong society.
When China keeps a simple promise of 1 country 2 systems then everyone is happy and fine.
The problem is China politics not keeping a simple promise.
So underlying cause of riots or unrest is due to China not keeping a simple promise - so lets stop pushing unwanted political agenda which results in protests.
People don't want to protest, everyone have better things to do and no one is 'in favour' of protests.
Don't give cause for protests then there will be none - very simple right?
Passing the Article 23 was promised too. Did HK keep this promise? Its a simple promise too, to prohibit any act of treason. If you can't keep your promise, don't count on other people to do the same.
I feel you lack understanding of Article 23.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Basic_Law_Article_23
Article 23 failed when put to the legislative council in 2003.
The Article went through the correct legal procedures.
Similar protests also occurred at the time.
There was never a promise for anything, please make sure you understand the legal matters before commenting.
@redslert: "The Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall enact laws on its own to prohibit any act of treason, secession, sedition, subversion against the Central People's Government, or theft of state secrets, to prohibit foreign political organisations or bodies from conducting political activities in the Region, and to prohibit political organisations or bodies of the Region from establishing ties with foreign political organisations or bodies."
It was never a legal matter, it is already written in the law, but no one enforce it.
From what I know about China, don't expect them to offer HK more autonomy unless HK make china feel secure.
From what I know about China, don't expect them to offer HK more autonomy unless HK make china feel secure.
My feel of China is they never feel secure, their insecurity runs deep. Probably comes from their prior actions.
@illuSion: What are you talking about?
Here is a link to Hong Kong Basic Law.
https://www.basiclaw.gov.hk/en/basiclawtext/index.html
Article 23 was a legislative motion to change Basic Law that was rejected and never actioned.
I don't believe you have an understanding on how government and legislative council works.
The irony is that you say they aren't brainwashed, but you're brainwashed yourself from everything you watch and read on state-owned, state controlled media, and social media, etc.
The violence you witness falls under the following recently:
Vandalism and destruction - Yep it's obviously not the best, but it is not random vandalism or destruction but targeted, namely, Maxim's corporation and chain of businesses, as the owners publicly came out to condemn protester's and support hong kong police brutality. The other is the MTR transport system as they are colluding with the government and police. Lastly pro-beijing businesses that are linked to triads who have been actively attacking protesters.
Violence and force against the police. This is pretty much a he hit me first, I hit him back narrative. It's pretty much obvious the hong kong police are absolutely corrupt of no return, their over exercising force and brutality to anyone, not even protesters, but a normal citizen is what's escalating and making this exercise violent
I can understand where people only think but these protester's are ruining the lives of normal citizens, and business owners, tourists, etc, etc. But none of the movements were aimed to be violent, everyone knew and saw it all started out peaceful until the police deployed teargas. Sure if a protest isn't "approved" it's deemed as an illegal gathering, but as the days went on almost every request for protest movement's have been outright denied by the police. Before the chief executive officially withdrew the bill, if people didn't come out to protest "illegally" the useless chief executive will just spin up some bullshiit saying oh yes see how peaceful it is, hong kong's back to normal, we can pass the bill through now!
If you sit on your ass at home and abide by the law and not come out to protest because they said no you cannot protest, then shiit will keep slipping under the carpets and people will lose all rights and freedom's.
It's pretty much obvious the hong kong police are absolutely corrupt of no return, their over exercising force and brutality to anyone, not even protesters, but a normal citizen is what's escalating and making this exercise violent
Are you kidding? British police simply killed protesters during colonial days. At the height of the 2019 protest it was claimed to have 2 million people, yet not one has died. You don't have to like CCP but you have to admit they are a lot more lenient than the city's former British overlords!
You are just a wu mao preaching whataboutism, comparing the modern day HK to colonial Britain. That is not the comparison being made and never was, nor did anyone bring up the British. Your attempt to divert the conversation away from the brutal police corruption in HK is blatantly obvious.
@Blitzfx: It's called providing some context. Instead of insulting me perhaps you can prove me wrong?
Oh, you can't, that's why you resorted to insults. Pity. I can respond by calling you names too but I'm not going to sink to that level.
It's a fact that Hong Kong never had democracy under British rule until after 1984 when China and Britain signed the 1984 Sino-British Join Declaration. In 1985 the Brits dangled democracy at the face of Hong Kong's people by democratising the Legislative Council but it was not universal suffrage.
Prior to 1985, members of the Legislative Council were simply appointed by the Governor. Much like the Governor General of Australia, HK's Governor was appointed by the Queen. Unlike Australia, the Governor held actual power. He was like an appointed dictator. Prior to 1985, if you were picked to be a member of the Legislative Council, you'd pledge your allegiance to the Queen, in English. Only after 1985, you could pledge your allegiance to the people, in Cantonese, the local language.
If one doesn't think there's anything wrong with that, they are an idiot. If one thinks waving around a British flag or a former Colonial Hong Kong flag is appropriate in a "pro-democracy protest", they are either a big idiot or they are deliberately lying to advocate their agenda.
Democratisation is not because the Brits suddenly decided to be kind, it's that they realised they will have to hand HK back to China, so they're trying to ensure a bad hand over. Compared to colonial periods, today's Legislative Council is elected by the Electoral Committee which is made up of 1,200 people from different sectors of the society. China does not allow HK full autonomy when it comes to who gets to be the city's leader, but at least they don't meddle with the members of the Election Committee.
Use your brain, my friend. A sad fact is today's Hong Kong is the most democratic it has ever been.
It's called providing some context
Providing context against a fking different time period. (mod edit: inflammatory) Do you know back in Colonial England, women cant vote? And you're comparing today's time to then? Do you know how archaic their thinking was? That's just one example of countless many.
What (mod edit: inflammatory) is the point of your useless history lesson when we are comparing to very recent times. Did you know the people of HK are protesting because their democratic way of life is gettings WORSE?
Use your brain, my friend. A sad fact is today's Hong Kong is the most democratic it has ever been.
Clearly the protests are happening because their way of life is improving.
So comparing to ancient history, just because the HK people had it better than hundreds of years ago doesn't mean they must accept the current state of their government. Neither does it mean they can't protest to improve it
Providing context against a fking different time period. What the fk is wrong with you?
First of all, the time period is different but we're only talking about a few decades ago. Secondly, don't blame me when some "peaceful protesters" decided to show up waving around a British flag and a Colonial Hong Kong flag. It's of course their freedom, but they can't call themselves pro-democracy because of the reasons I stated above. It's also my freedom to point out the hypocrisy, i.e., those waving around a British union jack really are anti-democracy protests.
Did you know the people of HK are protesting because their democratic way of life is gettings WORSE?
Oh, their way of life is definitely getting worse and I believe that's the reason behind all the rebellion. I just don't believe what they do constitutes a pro-democracy protest.
just because the HK people had it better than hundreds of years ago
Hundreds of years ago, lol, clearly you have no concept of time and the history of Hong Kong. Jesus, I almost laughed out loud in the office.
@Bad Company: The only person looking backwards and saying HK protests are asking for 'Colonial' HK is you.
Please comment on the 5 key demands from the people of HK and contrast that to what you are saying?
https://yp.scmp.com/hongkongprotests5demands
The only person looking backwards and saying HK protests are asking for 'Colonial' HK is you.
That is definitively false. My evidence: https://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=hong+kong+protest+b…
I rest my case.
By the way when "peaceful protesters" forced their way into the Legislative Council building and vandalised the place, they destroyed everything related to China and left oil paintings of colonial period head of Legislative Council intact. Head of the Legislative Council back in colonial days were appointed, not elected.
In my opinion those people have stopped being "pro-democracy". They are simply "pro-colony".
A sad fact is today's Hong Kong is the most democratic it has ever been.
Only because those who stood out and protested so Mrs Lam finally bowed to public pressure and withdrew the bill. If not, man, just whisked away to mainland china to face their legal system for allegations?? Not the most democratic HK I've known.
@cloudy: So, protesting worked and no one got killed. Exactly my point, today's HK is much more democratic than when it was under British rule.
It's ok to say this level of democracy is still not enough, but once you start waving around a British flag, I'm sorry, you just got disqualified as a pro-democracy protester.
From their very first sentence, you know they are brainwashed, because no one in their right mind, in our democracy, describes it as a riot. This is a pro-democracy protest. The only people who describe it as a riot are the Chinese state-owned media or those who have no moral standing for democracy.
If incessant amount of violence and vandalism doesn't count as riot, what counts as riot? Just because they riot in the name of democracy it stops being a riot?
But, at least you've stopped calling it a peaceful protest, so kudos to you.
@Bad Company: You need to stop focusing on the 'violence' and 'vandalism' and start thinking about what led to these actions?
Maybe it's after weeks of peaceful protesting and Lam chose to completely ignore it?
Maybe a medic got shot in the eye, is now permanently blind, and the police straight up denied any wrong doings (or it ever happened)?
Maybe the police started charging at random people, applying unnecessary force in arresting the protesters, such as beating them up and it was clear that the protesters had no power to fight back?
Maybe it's arresting underage girls, molesting female protesters, such as asking them to strip down to their underwear in front of the public?
The list goes on…
If you still lack empathy, after learning about many many incidents that led to the way the HK protesters are reacting currently (targeted violence against certain businesses), then I wish that we would never cross paths.
You need to stop focusing on the 'violence' and 'vandalism' and start thinking about what led to these actions?
Dude, I'm not ignoring the reason behind those actions, In fact, I can list a few. I just don't believe those actions are justified that's all.
Maybe it's after weeks of peaceful protesting and Lam chose to completely ignore it?
Well, give more weeks of peaceful protesting!
Maybe a medic got shot in the eye, is now permanently blind, and the police straight up denied any wrong doings (or it ever happened)?
Here's a video of the girl with the injured eye. She was injured by friendly fire, unless you believe the alleged bean bag shot by police turned mid air.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG0bUXnnMiU
Maybe the police started charging at random people, applying unnecessary force in arresting the protesters, such as beating them up and it was clear that the protesters had no power to fight back?
I don't know if the following counts as "protesters had no power to fight back". I can give you more if you want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpQpwQijRzg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CE-lPakRVM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHKbe5mAoNo
Maybe it's arresting underage girls, molesting female protesters, such as asking them to strip down to their underwear in front of the public?
I'm not familiar with this incident. And to be honest I won't be surprised if it turns out like the few you just mentioned.
If you still lack empathy, after learning about many many incidents that led to the way the HK protesters are reacting currently (targeted violence against certain businesses), then I wish that we would never cross paths.
I don't lack empathy, I just point out the double standards being applied: someone beat up a police officer = hero fighting for democracy, hail to him. But when police beat up protester = thugs and tools of the CCP.
Hypocrisy.
Well, give more weeks of peaceful protesting!
Oh wow. You mean after 4 months of peaceful protesting and Lam completely ignoring them, deploying police to spray people with tear gar, they should continue to bend over and "peacefully protest"?
That's great, sorry the 2mil people in Hong Kong weren't as patience as you are.
Of course it is easier for us to comfortably sit at home, sharing snippets of videos here and there to prove that our beliefs.
For example this one:
https://www.facebook.com/121625551334730/posts/1273368572827…
"protesters had no power to fight back"
Police have guns, tear gar and giant water canons. Sure, protestors can absolutely fight back.
No point arguing with someone who wouldn't change their mind. You see what you want to see.
I will leave you with this video made by HK's fire department, condemning HK's misuse of power.
they should continue to bend over and "peacefully protest"?
So you admit they've stopped being "peaceful protesters" long time ago? When the government doesn't listen, absolutely step up your action.
But in my opinion that shouldn't involve forcing your way into a government building and vandalise the place. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9p4YpN0srE
In my opinion that shouldn't involve violently forcing citizens to join you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQfgqwyHCVE
In my opinion that shouldn't involve attacking innocent mainlanders. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4GXZOss6J4
In my opinion that shouldn't involve getting together with a former CIA agent previously known to overthrow governments. https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/09/08/thanks-yanks-no-thanks…
See, totally different things.
Police have guns, tear gar and giant water canons. Sure, protestors can absolutely fight back.
If cops wanted to start killing they'd killed thousands by now. The fact that no one died is an amazing display of police discipline.
No point arguing with someone who wouldn't change their mind. You see what you want to see.
Yep that's very democratic, agree with us or we will make you with our fists.
I will leave you with this video made by HK's fire department, condemning HK's misuse of power.
Rubbish, it may be made by someone from the fire department but it sure isn't made by the fire department.
I will leave you with these videos showing many HK citizens support HK police. You can tell they're the older generation who actually lived under British rule and clearly they prefer today's HK. Unlike the trouble making young generation waving around a British flag when they know nothing about life back then. Lol.
But in my opinion that shouldn't involve forcing your way into a government building and vandalise the place. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9p4YpN0srE
no they shouldn't, but the government wasn't listening to the people and the people were right. The government agreed in the end. C Lam as admitted she was wrong (after 3 months of unrest)
If they had not put more pressure on her, she should not have admitted her errors.
In my opinion that shouldn't involve violently forcing citizens to join you.
No it shouldn't and it wasn't. No one was handchuffed to join the protests, They was just a disagreement on the street, just like us in forums. I see no violence.
In my opinion that shouldn't involve attacking innocent mainlanders. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4GXZOss6J4
Like I've said before, we all know why he was bashed. Try and pretend to be a supporter in a group of protests in a volatile situation. You're happy to say if you don't wanna be shot don't swing a bat at police. But can't concede if you don't want trouble, don't try and go undercover carrying inflammatory material. That is stupid. Of course, after following much of what you have written. I can see no reply for most of this, just like the other stuff you have yet to reply to.
I don't lack empathy, I just point out the double standards being applied: someone beat up a police officer = hero fighting for democracy, hail to him. But when police beat up protester = thugs and tools of the CCP.
If someone does wrap themselves in glad wrap and carrys a umbrella and puts themselves in harms way for a cause they believe in. Which happens to be yours, its pretty much the definition of a hero to many. Though, hero is not a word I've seen used here, but feel free to add that to your list of claims to justify (growing quickly, with little response as usual.)
Whenever a police beat up a protestor, they should be detained ( no differently to the thousands of protesters), yet none have been. (double standard much, hey?) That's if the government is seriously about what they say, to stop the violence.
But alas, the lack of any actions towards police wrongdoings just shows the governments hypocrisy.
So what do anger citizens do? Well, its easy for us judge here, but you have clearly made your thoughts clear. Which is fine, but I doubt when someone hits you you wont hit back, you're not as dumb as you make out I'm sure.
If they had not put more pressure on her, she should not have admitted her errors.
Of course keep putting pressure on her and her government, but I want to ask you: what does desecrating the Chinese flag achieve? What does waving the British flag achieve? What does meeting with US government officials achieve?
Are you sure this is as simple as putting pressure on Lam, or is this stirring the pot for some other gain?
No it shouldn't and it wasn't. No one was handchuffed to join the protests, They was just a disagreement on the street, just like us in forums. I see no violence.
If you see no violence, perhaps try again. No punches are being thrown, but I see nothing but violent threat in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70CQSr2DTKo
The first guy is an off-duty police officer. If you have no sympathy towards him, try 6:14 where they coerced an innocent passer-by to hold a piece of propaganda. No physical handcuffs, but he was forced nonetheless.
Very undemocratic thing to do, don't you agree?
Here's another video of protesters harassing an innocent passer-by at the airport. Again, no punches thrown, but violent, don't you agree citizens should have the right to not join them?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCNcLXqs2rA
Like I've said before, we all know why he was bashed. Try and pretend to be a supporter in a group of protests in a volatile situation.
It's not like he was waving an inflammatory flag amongst the mobs. Get your facts right.
They laid eyes on him because he sounded like a mainlander. At first he tried to run, but was forcibly pinned down and illegally searched. Then, mobs found T-shirt supporting HK police. He knew he was gonna bashed anyway so instead of begging, he voiced his support for HK police. Of course in your world, this deserves a rightful bashing, but most people would think otherwise.
Here's the video of another innocent traveller bashed and denied medical help just because he was a mainlander. No inflammatory material whatsoever, he was just trying to stay out of trouble: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mMRUd3NmBo
Again, couldn't outrun the mobs and got bashed. Denied medical help for hours.
You're happy to say if you don't wanna be shot don't swing a bat at police. But can't concede if you don't want trouble, don't try and go undercover carrying inflammatory material.
First, change "bat" to "steel pipe". Second, had the attacker simply run away without attacking, police wouldn't have shot him, unlike the previous videos I showed you where running away doesn't help. Third, if you think voicing support is the same thing as attacking police with a steel rod you should go home and be taught a lesson by your parents.
Of course, after following much of what you have written. I can see no reply for most of this, just like the other stuff you have yet to reply to.
I am comfortable with replying everything you throw at me. Unlikely you who only selectively respond to my post. Well done. By the way, I see CCP as a violent authoritarianism borderline on dictatorship. Although ironically compared to what the protesters have been doing, CCP is the less authoritarian and violent one.
》 That's if the government is seriously about what they say, to stop the violence.
But how do you stop violence without using force? This is a genuine question. I'm not saying police should have the right to use excessive force (they should get detained for that), but how do they stop violence without at least using some level of force?
Which is fine, but I doubt when someone hits you you wont hit back, you're not as dumb as you make out I'm sure.
How I do my self-defence depends on who that "someone" is. If that "someone" carries a gun and is a government endorsed law enforcement officer, it is an incredibly stupid thing to attack them with a steel pipe, as proven by your hero who's been shot.
Let me ask you this question, if you believe the government is treating you unfairly, do you go ahead and throw petrol bombs at a local police HQ?
Try to do this in Australia and you'll be shot dead in no time.
Of course.
Tell the brainwashed they were brainwashed but the brainwashed will never admit they were being brainwashed.
it is similar to russels paradox. if you know you are bw, then you are not bw, if you are bw, you wont know you are bw. or if you know you are crazy, then you are rational, so you are not crazy, but if you are crazy, then you wont be rational to know you are crazy.
Bring on 2047!
I was talking with my relative and friends living in Hong Kong. In most part of the country business is operating as usual, its only in certain part of the area where the unrest is happening. Obviously media are only focusing on the bad parts and so we don't see the others part of the country where things are peaceful eg. Disneyland. I suggest you research which areas are prone to the protesters attack.. and keep away from them.
Like it or not, Hong Kong belongs to China and even if Tiananmen 2.0 happens, the world won't risk WW3 or a global recession to do more than "condemning" the actions and "regretting" the loss of life.
China's International reputation is basically mud-splattered anyway (besides their "Friends" that they buy with cheap loans or cash handouts) so adding afew more blood splatters won't matter that much, since China's human rights record is already a known quantity.
Hong Kongers really have 2 choices:
1) Stay and keep your head down, do your job and adapt to the new reality that the state now controls virtually every aspect of your life and how you and your children are allowed to think. (Remember if you grow up under this system it's not so bad and you will even wonder what's the big deal about freedom - this is why mainlanders are so aggressively defending their beloved system)
2) Migrate overseas - this is already happening right now, and accelerated by the unrest. Other countries are already eagerly awaiting the influx of highly skilled labour to give their economies a boost.
Now among the ones who pick 2), you have those who:
A) Already have a foreign passport - they can rest easy and pick their time to leave when things get too bad.
B) Have money to go to any country of their choice under Business Migration Schemes.
C) Study at a foreign university and apply for residency - possible route, but due to the competition it's not a guaranteed method. Unless Tiananmen 2.0 occurs and they hit the jackpot and are given protection Visas.
D) Be high profile enough in the protests so they can claim asylum in Taiwan (assuming they manage to get there before being caught.)
E) No money and no education - Tough luck. But with massive social changes come opportunity as well so some may be able to improve their lot.
The void left by departing Hong Kongers will be eagerly filled by Chinese from the overcrowded mainland, and Hong Kong will still be there, but it won't be the same Hong Kong anymore but just another Mandarin-speaking Chinese city.
Hong Kong does belong to China, and it amuses me when the British complain 'but you're not sticking to your end of the deal!'. Umm, it's not 1997 anymore. The sun has set on the British empire and I'm afraid China can do as it pleases with Hong Kong while other countries complain.
Many young people want to leave anyway. There is basically no hope of owning your own apartment with prices 21x the average wage.
I sympathize with the Hong Kong protesters seeking real democracy and a say in how their zone is governed, but I just don't see Beijing giving an inch.
So whats wrong with a Mandarin-speaking Chinese city? Also, Canton province has more than 20 major cities, most of them are still canton-speaking cites, you conclusion is just WRONG.
Didn't say there's anything wrong with it. Just noting that what made Hong Kong different from other Chinese mega cities won't be there anymore. All those people leaving will need to be replaced from somewhere, most likely from the mainland, so those new arrivals will re-make Hong Kong in their own image.
Guangzhou* doesn't really speak Cantonese anymore after years of deliberate side-lining of Cantonese from the media and schools - https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2136237/why-…
*Edited to change Guangdong to Guangzhou which is a more accurate statement.
I'm not 100% sure about whether that article is correct or not.
However when I went back to a trip to China recently and asked for instructions about the closest ATM, the officer made me speak in Mandarin instead. They are scared to talk Cantonese whilst on the job. It's gotten that bad.
As for families, the middle class who want more opportunities to either leave for HK (guess that was a bad idea, but no one foresee what would happen recently), are either bilingual (canto+mando) or trilingual (+english). I do agree that most Chinese citizens though wouldn't be teaching Cantonese because families don't value education in practice. They put teachers up on the pedestal for this reason, and put all their faith into the education system and nothing else. That's bad for the society and the ability to innovate as you will know that when people finish University, learning is lifelong, look inside China and it's a bit different.
Dated a few people and they haven't read a book after getting their degree.
Everything changes over time.
Indonesia. Chinese had to speak Dutch, then Indonesian (even change their names to avoid being killed). Now with the rise of China they can speak Mandarin and have Chinese signboards
Malaysia and Singapore . I was surprised that people have stopped speaking dialects and spoke Mandarin.
In old days, the British encouraged use of dialects even in writing and there were Hokkien Fuchow Teochew etc in newspapers, radio etc.
The first national military service in late 1950's had diverse groups of Hokkien Fuchow Teochew etc units.
Thailand treated us better. My family just changed their names. A leader of the opposition party apologised for being photographed with Joshua Wong, he said he did not know Joshua who wormed his way into a photograph.
That is why SE Asia Chinese do not sympathize with HK rioters.
That is why SE Asia Chinese do not sympathize with HK rioters.
The real reason why is because if they did they, China would cut them off economically. Using economics might to push their political agenda (not unheard of or anything), just saying the truth.
was watching a documentary on lincoln, how he united a segregated or polarised country. democracy takes time to mature…. hopefully peace will come soon. there is a nobel prize for peace, the only prize that does not involve invention, so easy to say dont fight each other, yet it seems this could be biggest challenge facing humanity. is it time to pray for god and sing amazing grace, or is it time to stop and reflect, and perhaps do something for the community?
Obomber won a nobel prize for "peace", yet significantly ramping up drone bombings
Obomber lol!!!
how about the homeless people on the streets of hong kong, how about the less fortunate who struggles to make ends meet, what if these young and energetic people chose to do something positive and take the opportunity to help the poor, i know it has been quite frustrating, like grant hacket once said, when you shake the coke bottle, eventually, it becomes very hard to contain the pressure, …. anyway may peace come soon.
I trust that you have also helped the homeless in Australia given we are a proud nation with a higher homeless rate than Hong Kong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_…
as kennedy once said, ask not what the country will do for you, ask yourself what you can do for the country
spent last week in Hong Kong man those people know how to party!!
And on the other hand it’s difficult to find western food and if and when you do it is hugely expensive. Was there in August, HK has changed so much it is more like China, did the residents not notice the gradual changes. I personally would not return
All I can say is you can shout to the highest heaven, fly British or US flags, listen to Dutton and Australian politicians and current Taiwan government , nobody wants you.
The rich left long ago.
You are stuck with HK and China is stuck with you.
The most overseas Chinese are in SE Asia and nobody sides with you.
What then is your next step?
The best thing for the independence movement is to wait until they re-merge with China so they can undermine it from within and cross the borders safely.
The current protestors are too early in the fight in my opinion. I'm not sure they can win like this, and I'm not sure they thought of the strategy before they started; but then again this was only ever about the anti-extradition bill. This buys them time so that they have good legal frameworks in place before they start whatever they will in 2047.
I'm sure those in Beijing probably want to know more. I am seriously concerned China may become fragmented come 2047. I don't think they have thought it over properly.
Either way, dictactorships don't survive this long. It's just not really possible because of the economics and mathematics behind it. The party needs to position itself so that it still controls power but allows some elections where the communists are doing really good things for the country that they will always retain power. That's why they shouldn't be scared of opening up. Look at Myanmar.
It might not be safe to visit Hong Kong for many decades to come.
China is not a true dictatorship, that's why it's survived this long. It's certainly authoritarian, and with the recent abandonment of leadership term limits, borderlining on being a dictatorship, but if Xi wants to be a dictator he still has a lot of work to do.
I think people with critical thinking and have what it takes to wait till 2047 so they can "undermine it from within" often has higher political ambitions than just seeking HK independence. I would imagine they want to rule all of China, and not just a tiny city.
Dont forget Burma was in a mess since the 1940's after the war when Aung An Su Kyi's father was murdered by a group supplied with Sten guns by British Military Admin BMA because he worked with the Japanese. Nothing new, Indian Bose worked with the Japanese and almost all Indian POWs joined the Japanese army. The BMA was initially supported by the Malayan Communist Party and its Liberation Army because they worked together against the Japanese. The MCP took part in the London Victory parade where the leader was awarded a OBE. The Malay leaders were being arrested for collaboration. Despite Gandhi Bose is still a hero in India.
It took over 50 years before Myanmar stabilise with myriad of rebel groups.
Currently the West interprets the Bangaleshi immigrants as Rohingya a term not known to Burmese before. India built a wall to stop the immigration flow. Malaysia has over 3 million
" I am seriously concerned China may become fragmented come 2047" There were unending dictatorships in China since the end of the imperial days since 1911. China was fragmented badly but the CCP united it.
The riots in HK will be over in a year easily if the government invokes British laws back.
There are descendants of civil war refugees and Vietnamese refugees. A substantial number still a minority are anti China.
Well exactly Myanmar's gone the extra step and actually gone towards democracy after stabilising the country.
There is no reason why Chinas' CCP can't win elections by itself. The problem I see is that the longer they put it off the more the cultural revolution and other things which families still teach their children secretly will pop back up.
Almost everyone knows about 64, but not many have seen pictures about it. In fact they probably won't even tie the words of Tiananmen with what happened on that date. That's because they aren't taught explicitly and shown the truth like what Westerners would. I've been back to my hometown a few times and everyone knows what happened, albeit none of the young ones would even have seen a picture because they are technically challenged. You can see oddities about why local newspapers aren't published on that day, newspapers published daily suddenly don't print on 64 and you will know, they will know. Also the way they teach about it to their children is different, you don't tell them enough that they go poking around to get themselves in trouble. They are also taught not to talk to the media, especially western media, so you'll get people that know about it stating, "What is that", "Is that a real photo?", and so on. What you are more likely to see are pictures of people on the ground with bicycles nearby and maybe a tank in the corner, not a solo man standing in front of the tank. That glorified western image doesn't give the correct fear response that is required for the modern children to survive in China.
Nevertheless, China's biggest problem is that they only control a small part of China. Tibet and Xinjiang are not really controlled by China, not to the extent where they would survive the domino effect of one region being toppled. Further the media drawing into anti-Cantonese sentiment is why the southern areas of China won't support the North. Lots of propaganda is appearing now about how speaking Cantonese causing cancer and so on.
If you cut out the potential separatist regions and draw out the new boundaries, Beijing is very vulnerable. That's why they are doing what they are doing in Xinjiang and Tibet. They need more control because they know the fact is that they really have nothing. They want to protect as much as they can because they know the soviet union style collapse is close.
Hong Kong is important because it is where the money flows into China. Lots of contracts are denominated in offshore yuan and those transactions take place in Hong Kong where favourable legal instruments are in place. China has basically taken and used the infrastucture of Hong Kong and not repaid it with anything.
If they really want a one China, they should be doing things that bring the country together. For example, a lot of the infrastructure spend could have been done at no cost for Hong Kong. Just take a look at all that free belt projects that they keep giving to Africa. If they spent even a fraction of that in Hong Kong, things could be drastically different. Spend that money during elections and tie it to Beijing. That's how you win an election. Infrastructure spending and jobs where the locals of Xinjiang or Tibet actually can make a good living. That's what's needed.
By the way China wasn't united by the CCP at all. That was done by Sun Yat-sen who was part of the KMT.
Returning to Hong Kong, what they need in Hong Kong is better government and accountable government. You can't just create crappy housing policies and create the bubble and then keep inflating it with new policies like the 10% deposit for second hand properties. I think you would realise what happened in 1997 was the introduction of a terrible housing policy that led to what is now modern Hong Kong. Singapore used to learn from Hong Kong, now the fools in government have to look at Singapore to fix Hong Kong again. That's the big joke. You can't just stay in government after making bad decisions. That's like a political party staying in power if they ever got by a freak accident and then continuously staying in power even after making mistake after mistake. That accident is the 1997 agreement by Thatcher.
@[Deactivated]: I agree with some and disagree with many things you said. Your knowledge is incomplete.
"By the way China wasn't united by the CCP at all. That was done by Sun Yat-sen who was part of the KMT."
Sun Yat Sen hid in Malaya Penang in Church St with friends of ours next door to us before I was born. I am close to 80 now. His Cantonese Army started north commanded by Chiang Kai Shek. He introduced his wife's sister to Chiang as his second wife. The Japanese intervened at that time, He chickened out of a fight with the Japanese and spent his time fighting the Communists, His Whampao Military Academy the Chinese West Point head Chou En Lai defected.China was full of warlords ex imperial army local commanders. One of them ruled over Tibet and there was an existing Chinese legation in Tibet. The warlord in Manchuria was assassinated by the Japanese. His son Chang Hsueh Liang was sent away from the Japanese by Chiang to fight the communists, his Army sat and did nothing. Chiang flew to reprimand him and was arrested in his underpants. Chang got an agreement to fight the Japanees and surrendered to Chiang. He was detained for the rest of his life in Taiwan unrecognized by the Communists and KMT.
BTW the KMT the former enemy in Taiwan is pro China, the "native" Fukien speaking " who served with the Japanese is not. They alternate in government.
Read the book by Michael Cohen an American soldier of fortune who served as Sun's bodyguard.
BULLSHIT TO YOUR COMMENTS BELOW- JUST CHECK WITH PEOPLE WHO KNOW OR INTERNET.
Why should China spend on HK at the present moment? They can just spend across the border and develop it for jobs etc.
"If you cut out the potential separatist regions and draw out the new boundaries, Beijing is very vulnerable. That's why they are doing what they are doing in Xinjiang and Tibet. They need more control because they know the fact is that they really have nothing. They want to protect as much as they can because they know the soviet union style collapse is close."
REALLY CLOSE?
Hong Kong is important because it is where the money flows into China. Lots of contracts are denominated in offshore yuan and those transactions take place in Hong Kong where favourable legal instruments are in place. China has basically taken and used the infrastucture of Hong Kong and not repaid it with anything.
YOU HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF FINANCE AT ALL.
I have relatives including American born Chinese who served as volunteers in WW2 and the civil war.
@greywise: Madam Sun Yat Sen joined the Communists.
The problem with Western thinking is you are always right and surely people agree with you. Why then since the end of WW2 a lot of non Westerners are against the West.
Those in the US State Dept who supported the CCP and Vietminh were purged by McCarthyism.
@greywise: The topic is 'Hong Kong - How Dangerous Is It at The Moment and Is It Still Worth Going?' All comments should be directed to that.
@SydneySwan: I am fully aware of this. I merely answer incorrect assumptions. This has been going on for some time.
Why spend money travelling in fear?Please note the above com./travel/article/ Hong Kong ……..article is of CNN report . Why not wait for the rioting over? There is always a danger that you may fall into at the moment … Why take the risk now. Your safety is more important than a few hundred dollars you save.
I guess it's safe if you don't try to grab police's gun or argue with black shirts. The former gets you shot (rightfully so), and the latter gets you burnt alive.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=hong+kong+set+f…
It’s shameful to see a group of protesters being schooled by one person.
https://youtu.be/x_SqKY5haqg
That's funny, thanks for the laugh.
Friend went to HK in October and tourist spots such as Disneyland didn't have as much visitors. I would still avoid going however, just to be safe and to avoid any problems in transportation.
safe in 2024?
Serious answer - I was just there last week and returned yesterday.
I didn’t see a single protestor, but I wasn’t exactly wanting to get myself into trouble so if I knew something was about to happen, I would leave the situation.
In terms of “is it safe?”, well personally I think it’s safe. The correct term to use should be “inconvenient”. For example, it might take you a while to get out of the airport (if protests are happening there). You might need to walk a bit more then expected (if the MTR is down). You might not be able to get any taxis/buses (if the protestors have roadblocks down). You might need to cancel plans to do something in the middle of it (eg. shopping centre may close if they know a protest is heading towards them).
So to answer your question, you COULD go; it is still safe. But would you have the most fun and relaxed as a vacation? Probably not.
Personally I was still OK as I went to visit family. But there were certain situations like MTR being canceled or shopping centres closing, those incidents did affect me.