Another Health Study: Vegan/Vegetarian versus Carnivore

GG57 on 05/09/2019 - 12:53
Last edited 05/09/2019 - 13:40

Following on from the highly divisive forum: https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/479957

BBC is running a report (https://www.bbc.com/news/health-49579820) regarding some an extensive research project, the findings of which has been published in the British Medical Journal, that found:

  • Vegans and vegetarians had 22% lower risk of coronary hear disease (CHD) than meat eaters
  • Pescetarians had 13% lower risk of CHD than meat eaters
  • Vegans and vegetarians had 20% higher risk of stroke
    But, as this was an observational study over decades, there is no cause-and-effect from this research as the typical vegetarian diet today is most likely very different to one from 20 to 30 years ago.

The BBC report has links to other studies:

  • Too much processed and red meat is linked to increased risk of bowel cancer
  • Vegans can become deficient in vitamin B12 and iron, and recently a nutrient called choline (important for brain health).

The recommendation is to eat a balanced diet to ensure that you get all the necessary nutrients. Just like my mother used to say.

Edit - added link to BBC report

Health & Beauty

Comments

        • HighAndDry on 05/09/2019 - 16:14
          +1

          It really shouldn't even be in quotes, the kid is literally unable to see because all he ate was chips.

          I honestly read the article waiting for some kind of twist too, but nope. Apparently the parents saw nothing wrong with him eating nothing but fried processed starch and nothing else basically.

        • GG57 on 05/09/2019 - 16:16
          +3

          In this case, the word "diet" is used as "…is the sum of food consumed by a person…"

          Much like your diet of steak, chicken wings and milk tea.

      • tblife on 05/09/2019 - 22:46
        +3

        This is a very interesting case study.

        Obviously the boy had Severe B12 Deficiency leading to an extreme degree of neuropathy (nerve damage) and severe osteoporosis (poor bone density). As a medical professional, I have seen reversible neurological damage from B12 deficiency but never to this extreme.

        B12 is essential for metabolism and cell division as is found predominantly in animal products. Some breakfast cereals fortify their products with vitamin B12, calcium, vitamin D and iron.

        Fortunately, Iron deficiency, Vitamin D, and B12/folate deficiency can be easily diagnosed with a simple blood test, covered by medicare, by your GP.
        Your GP can also advise on supplementation (either tablets or injections) depending on the severity. I would encourage ALL vegetarians/vegans (or anyone else with health concerns; anyone can be at risk of malnutrition with highly processed food) to have a health check up and get professional advice if they are deficient.

    • fantombloo on 05/09/2019 - 16:38
      +1

      Of course that's true. People are using the word "vegan" to categorise a widely varying range of diets and lifestyles - the only thing they should have in common is that they don't involve the intentional use of animals, not what people eat or how they exercise. The China Study is probably amongst the best controlled studies in this field but is still open to lots of interpretations.

      The studies relating to 7th Day Adventists (mentioned above) have little to do with vegetarians or vegans - this is a group that generally lives a "clean" life - no smoking, drinking, wild nights out, etc. Of course they're gonna live longer than the rest of us who are living in revelry and on the path to hell. (Or annihilation as they believe).

      Both vegan and nonvegan diets can be nutritionally complete or not, full of crap or not. To be sure the average amount of flesh and milk (as cheese) consumed today is a sure way to get sick and leave early, but animal flesh in moderation killed no-one except the animal themself. This is good enough reason to not eat animal products, there are plenty more. But maximising longevity and preventing disease is not a reason either way.

  • payless69 on 05/09/2019 - 16:56

    Travelling the world one can see a bit more complexity than just carnivores and herbivores. There are cultural choices, religious choices (extremes like Jain Cuisine) poverty choices or better said no money for meat and of course there is the USA where arrogance and laziness rules.

    I have both seen and tried a bit of variety. Some examples: A few airlines take health serious. Singapore Air for example does not let their pilots eat any meat. Had a good friend flying for them who grew up on American rubbish or what they call trash. He was glad do have grown up of what to eat. Just google famous vegetarians, the list may surprise.

    Personally what has touched me a bit are hospital write-off's. Leukaemia patients sent home to go and die. Talked to 3 different ones going thru the same scenario. Ended up on a vegan health farm and became healthy again! Not to say that it was a proven cure for all. Having seen around a dozen other mates go down and vanish fast with leukaemia made me dump: Sausages or any kind of heavy processed stuff others eat. Pork! Sorry I used to be a salami and ham freak and my arteries do not get a system flush having sinned in the past. Alcohol except light beer or the occasional glas of quality wine. Smoking is a no no.
    Many animal lovers have a personality issue prefer to love an animal they can dominate because they failed to learn to understand other humans!
    Other vegans are simply to greedy to pay the quack let alone scared of any needles!

  • Mosher on 05/09/2019 - 18:13
    +1

    Being a meat eater means I might die younger but at least I'll die happy

    • ihbh on 05/09/2019 - 18:20
      +7

      Nope, unhealthy diets lead to unhealthy deaths (long unhealthy period before death), which if you're going through, will unlikely to be happy.

      • Mosher on 05/09/2019 - 21:14

        So to eat healthy I must give up meat?

        • ihbh on 05/09/2019 - 21:40
          +3

          No you don't have to give it up, but the less the better.

          • Mosher on 06/09/2019 - 09:08

            @ihbh: I don't eat it everyday

            maybe 3-4 times a week (a mix of red meat and chicken)

      • Vieira4 on 06/09/2019 - 10:21

        so vegans have quick deaths?

        • ihbh on 06/09/2019 - 12:53

          Lets clarify and call it people who eat a whole food plant based diet - live long healthy lives, with perhaps short illness before death.

          C.f. shorter lives with longer illness period.

      • LFO on 07/09/2019 - 18:30

        Only happens when not eating junk food and drinking enough. Easy to solve :-)

  • Dreamcast on 05/09/2019 - 20:04
    +2

    Vegans and vegetarians have 100% more chance of having a boring life.

    • callum9999 on 05/09/2019 - 21:08
      +5

      My life is exciting enough that the food I eat is ultimately irrelevant to it. If you rely on meat for excitement then I feel sorry for you!

      (Which is not to say meat doesn't taste great - it most definitely does - it just is hardly the most exciting thing to do on the planet)

      • fantombloo on 05/09/2019 - 21:43
        +1

        Most people who have not critically analysed what they eat will have the same revolving set of meals day in day out. Steak and veg, parma and chips, spag bol, and whatever other few regulars they have.

        Personally, when needing to think about what I eat it opened up a whole new set of opportunities and possibilities. I have eaten more variety since eating vegan than ever before in my life. I've tried ingredients I would never have considered before. This was born out of necessity, but like so many things in life it's required to lose something comfortable to find something possibly even better and less boring.

      • Dreamcast on 06/09/2019 - 05:16
        +1

        Lol this guy, I'm joking. Plus I love vegans and vegetarians. It means more meat for me. Less demand = cheaper meat ;)

        • ihbh on 06/09/2019 - 09:10
          +1

          It's a win/win situation for everyone. Less demand for fruits, veg, nuts and whole grains = cheaper prices.

  • [Deactivated] on 05/09/2019 - 20:06

    I havn’t eaten red or chicken for near 30 years, it’s simple as I don’t like the taste, same as some people don’t like taste of fish, I love fish and all other dairy. My 2 vices are 2 coffees a day and a half a bottle of organic preservative free red wine twice a week.

  • netjock on 05/09/2019 - 20:18

    There who will, will. Those who won't will find an excuse.

  • morphio on 05/09/2019 - 21:58
    +4

    I’m fairly sure the word you’re looking for is Omnivore; not Carnivore. I had a quick skim and it doesn’t seem to be talking about people who only consume meat. I might be wrong though.

    • idonotknowwhy on 06/09/2019 - 00:33
      +1

      I replied below with the same thing before seeing this. I agree with you. They're comparing people on a diet vs people not on a diet.
      Carnivores vs Vegans would be a different outcome.

  • barozgain on 05/09/2019 - 23:36

    Not every published study is a legitimate trustworthy study (even some of the ones in reputable medical journals), they could be subject to lots of biases reported and unreported.

    The most famous example is tobacco companies manipulating research in 1950s and 1960s:

    The tobacco industry has manipulated these other factors in a variety of ways. First, by using its funding mechanisms to attempt to control the research agenda and types of questions asked about tobacco. Second, the industry's lawyers and executives have been involved in the design and conduct of industry-supported research. Third, the tobacco industry has sponsored publications of its own funded research, and suppressed research not favourable to the industry.

    Hence, not every "research" is a good one.

    Another point worth looking at is the value of research, the highest value is a systematic review (i.e.: someone looking at many randomised controlled trials and summarising the findings) and the lowest is case series so always try and search on reputable free medical journals like http://cochranelibrary.com for systematic reviews to judge the quality

  • idonotknowwhy on 06/09/2019 - 00:29
    +1

    This looks like Vegan vs Omnivore, not Vegan vs Carnivore.
    A.k.a people considering what they eat vs people eating whatever happens to be 50% off that day.

    Carnivore vs Vegan would be a different story.

    P.S. I've only ever had food poisoning from poorly prepared fruits and/or vegetables, not meats.

  • [Deactivated] on 06/09/2019 - 02:05

    What about organic vs non-organic carnivores?

    Reminds me of something funny happened when I studied a couple of nutrition units at uni, girl in our group-work project wanted to make her section about the health benefits of organic meat.
    She took offense when I, as nice as I could, said it's probably not the best topic due to lack of evidence to support it.
    Her response was to defend with, just a word "mortality" . I looked at the others in group like wtf, How dumb is this girl, bit none of us said it of course. But couldnt help but LMAO inside when she told us eating non-organic meat causes death 😂
    Edit: Nothing wrong with being dumb, and anyone else I would feel bad about it. But she actually fobbed off all of her work, then threatened to claim I did nothing to the teacher (she threatened this because she submitted last minute then demanded I have a a3 poster printed like 25 minutes to go before start of class, or else).

  • TheOtherLeft on 06/09/2019 - 07:41

    The only part of the study I find interesting is:

    "Vegans can become deficient in vitamin B12 and iron, and recently a nutrient called choline (important for brain health)."

    So it confirms they are all braindead.

    I'm an omnivore and like a balanced diet.

    • GG57 on 06/09/2019 - 09:23

      That wasn't in the study.
      It was in the BBC report, which referenced the British Medical Journal study along with a few other related studies or news stories.

  • GG57 on 06/09/2019 - 09:29

    I found the responses in this forum interesting:

    • The BBC story, and the study itself, were (in my view) quite balanced, and didn't state that one type of diet is any better than another type of diet
    • A lot of the responses in this forum immediately went into "meat is good" or "vegan is good" mode, depending on their own biases
    • Very few went the "balanced diet is good" mode

    But in reality, that is what I perceive the vast majority of the population eat. A relatively balanced diet.

    • idonotknowwhy on 06/09/2019 - 11:52
      +1

      You never addressed the fact that your title is misleading.
      This study is comparing Vegans and Vegetarians to Omnivores, not Carnivores.
      Vegetarians, Vegans and Carnivores think about what they're eating and are likely to be more health-concious in other ways (exercises, sleep, etc).

      The average Omnivore does not consider any of this. So the study is comparing health-conscious vs average people.

      Morphio and I both pointed this out, yet the title remains misleading.

      • GG57 on 06/09/2019 - 11:58

        Saw the comments re the Forum Title, but also saw a few comments from people stating that they eat meat only.

        Acknowledging that the Title is misleading, I am not sure that your assumption that omnivores do not consider health in their lifestyles is a broad brush.
        The study makes no comment re 'health-conscious' vs 'average people'.

        • HighAndDry on 06/09/2019 - 12:58
          +4

          I am not sure that your assumption that omnivores do not consider health in their lifestyles is a broad brush.

          I think the contention is basically a self-selection/sampling bias.

          There are a proportion of people who (proactively) become vegan because of health reasons. There are comparatively smaller proportion, if at all, of people who (proactively) become omnivorous for health reasons - rather, most omnivores are so by default.

          And so when you randomly sample vegans vs omnivores, you're sampling from a group a portion of which self-selects for health-consciousness (vegans) vs a group who does not (omnivores), and thereby having a higher proportion of health-conscious people in the vegan group vs the omnivorous group.

          Tl;dr: The study doesn't control or adjust for differing levels of health-consciousness as between vegans vs omnivores.

          • [Deactivated] on 10/09/2019 - 10:27

            @HighAndDry: You've made a lot of assertions here and provided no evidence. It seems more likely to me that people are vegan for ethical reasons rather than health reasons.

            • HighAndDry on 10/09/2019 - 10:38

              @[Deactivated]:

              You've made a lot of assertions here and provided no evidence.

              Completely admitted, I'm just spit-balling.

              It seems more likely to me that people are vegan for ethical reasons rather than health reasons.

              Irony in the context of the immediately preceding sentence lol. At least practice what you preach if you're going to call others out jesus.

              • [Deactivated] on 13/09/2019 - 11:04
                -1

                @HighAndDry: That was exactly the point I am making. Nullifying your argument with an argument of equal strength based on my own unprofessional opinion.

  • Trying2SaveABuck on 06/09/2019 - 10:58
    +1

    Balanced diet is key - however i do try to avoid processed meats like spam and sausages due to a family history of bowel cancer

  • WarChief on 06/09/2019 - 11:00

    A little bit of context around evidence based studies:

    https://medium.com/@drjasonfung/scientific-opinions-for-sale…

  • LFO on 06/09/2019 - 12:48
    +1

    "Red meat"

    Is that cheap Bunnings sausages with onions or is it an expensive top quality, grass fed beef? Or fat reduced Kangaroo steak?

    Is that a supermarket meat-pie or is a, home made, osso buco casserole?

    Vegan propaganda never quite specify what is what.

    • [Deactivated] on 10/09/2019 - 10:31

      It is red meat, that is specific, that is beef, pork, lamb, etc. Not fish or chicken.

      • LFO on 12/09/2019 - 21:14

        Yes but eating "red meat" as a Bunnings sausage will be far more detrimental to someones health than eating "red meat" from a fat reduced Kangaroo steak (or Angus or Wagyu beef)

        Eating some greasy (river) fish, fried and salted, or eating raw tuna.

        Clearly different food values.

  • vicosads on 06/09/2019 - 12:58
    +1

    'studies' are paid for and promoted by vested interests would never trust any of them especially ones promoted in the media

    • GG57 on 06/09/2019 - 13:00

      Was this study funded by vested interests?

  • frostman on 06/09/2019 - 13:56
    +1

    Non-Vegetarian diets are mislabelled and hence causing all the mess.

    Just because you're a 'meat eater'
    It doesn't mean the person has meat 3 times a day.
    It doesn't mean I don't touch vegetables
    It doesn't mean I don't have a balanced diet

    The social problem today is if I say: "Im not a vegetarian", the other person usually thinks I belong to one or all 3 above traits.

    I can be a meat eater and eat meat twice/3 times a WEEK whilst avoiding processed/cured meats

    I've seen vegetarians and vegans rip into whole vegge pizzas loaded with carbs and sugars, how's that any better?

    • ihbh on 06/09/2019 - 19:45

      That's why if you want to be healthy, just focus as much on whole foods, plant based as much as possible and forget about the v's.

  • VBO on 07/09/2019 - 00:02
    +1

    Vegan is more like a cult than a diet these days.

    • [Deactivated] on 07/09/2019 - 09:23
      +1

      Probably so is carnivore diet. Youtube has many people involved.

      • JustASmoothSkin on 07/09/2019 - 17:57
        +1

        As a person on the carnivore diet I agree, But most of us don't try to tell people to give up eating plant based meals entirely and switch to only a carnivore diet. We are just vocal against Vegans and Vegetarians who like to tell us that we are monsters for eating meat and any results we get are lies. We don't really even care what Vegans and Vegetarians eat, eat what ever works, what works for us is meat.

        Most of us carnivoires would recommend to eat a balanced and rich diet in grains, fruits, veg and meat when you feel like it. Plenty of water and regular exercise as-well as to look into fasting when possible.

  • [Deactivated] on 07/09/2019 - 09:22

    To hear a doctors opinion supporting the carnivore argument, have a look at:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5apkKkeZQXRSDbqSalG8CQ/vid…

    My opinion is neither is optimal.
    I think we need mainly just glucose from a suitable source (eg rice or meat) everyday or regularly, we need micro-nutrients (eg from plants) as little as weekly or every month or two, and our bodies would be in best possible health long term. The benefits would be many. It's just a theory still, but I am working on this diet at the moment to try to improve 20 years of gut pain.

  • oshe on 07/09/2019 - 13:29

    red meat, the meat of mammals, including pork (yes it looks white when cooked) is a possible carcinogenic according to the WHO.

    Processed meats, bacon, ham salami are on the list with asbestos and plutonium, consumption will lead to cancer (eventually).

    Pretty easy choice for me to go vegetarian.

    • LFO on 12/09/2019 - 21:21

      .

      possible carcinogenic
      .
      cancer (eventually)

      Hate to say this but we are all going to die. Eventually.

      The massive amount of pesticides and fertilizers in today's vegetables cannot possible be without negative consequences to those who are consuming them as their only staple food/diet.

  • Numlock on 07/09/2019 - 13:50

    Vegetarian food makes me shit come out clean and fast.

  • railspider on 07/09/2019 - 19:42
    +3

    Everyone says vegans are annoying and love to shove their beliefs down your throat, yet nearly every post in this thread is a sarcastic comment about how good eating meat is.

    Anti-vegans are far worse than vegan/vegetarians. Just eat what you like and don't get so defensive when a study shows your diet isn't optimal.

    • LFO on 12/09/2019 - 21:23
      +1

      I think it is the vegans those reminding the rest that eating meat is unsustainable. Or the cruelty of it. Not the other way around.

  • bchliu on 07/09/2019 - 23:46
    +1

    I think this is missing the point. I honestly believe in a good balanced diet ever since school days ("food pyramid") still applies. I don't get why vegans take such a stupid "moral high ground" to force others into giving up meat. To me, 2/3 vege/cereal and 1/3 meat is about as good of a mix as you can get. You eat and you be happy with your food. Simple.

    NB: I don't endorse too much junk food, high fat content or sugars. However, nothing wrong with KFC once in a while to keep the mind happy..

  • paraneoplastic on 08/09/2019 - 11:31

    From the BMJ paper

    Limitations:

    Among the limitations of the present study, diet group was self reported, and reasons for choosing each diet were not recorded. Changes in diet group or other behaviours not captured by the follow-up were also possible, and the composition of vegetarian diets could have changed during follow-up owing to increasing availability of vegetarian foods, but differences in nutrient intakes between the diet groups were similar at baseline and at follow-up.962 Reverse causality is possible but not likely, because the results were similar after we excluded the first five years of follow-up, and most participants had followed their current diet (eg, vegetarian) for more than five years at the time of recruitment. Information on drug treatment use (including statins) at recruitment was not available. As with all observational studies, residual confounding from either dietary or non-dietary factors is possible, which might be particularly relevant if results were of borderline significance. Generalisability could be limited, because the present study was based predominantly on white European individuals.

    It's really hard to accurately quantify claims like the ones the study has done. The magnitude of variables is simply too vast. In medicine, the highest form of evidence is a double blinded placebo controlled trial. Which in this scenario would be almost impossible (i say almost as there are some meat product replacements which have almost nailed the taste, texture and consistency as real animal proteins).

    In my opinion, i think diet doesn't play a big a role a perpetuated, the longest lifespans (avg) are in developed countries with a grossly different diets (i.e. Japan, Aus, Singapore, Swiz land etc). I think as long as, your blood parameters are in reference (i.e. normal cholesterol, normal blood pressure, vitamins in check etc.) i don't think it really matters what diet you used to acheive it (though, the sustainability impact should be considered too).

    • oshe on 08/09/2019 - 19:20

      yes physical activity, social interaction and a positive attitude is also pretty important, and religious people also live longer…

  • idonotknowwhy on 11/09/2019 - 14:18

    Looks like we have fake vegans now too
    https://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/health-and-wellness/why-…

    84% of Vegans/Vegetarians abandon the diet
    https://faunalytics.org/a-summary-of-faunalytics-study-of-cu…

  • AlienC on 14/09/2019 - 05:30

    My instinct tells me that your overall mental and emotional health dictates your physical health more than what you physically consume but that could just be neanderthal cave man brain talking :)

    basically if you eat unhealthy food but are more happy and less worry you will live longer than the neurotic food monitor spending most of your life watching what you eat rather than how you feel about what you eat.. but this study will probably take 100,000 years to get any solid amount of results so it is hungry jacks and kfc for me until I die… probably tomorrow

  • [Deactivated] on 19/09/2019 - 01:35

    Medical and dietary opinion should be taken with a pinch of salt, except where it is based on fact and/or solid, reliable research.
    Most opinions change over time such as about fat, salt, eggs, cholesterol, weight-loss …

    Carnivore vs Veganism argument is like Catholic vs Muslim. They are both overly simplistic, extremist, religiously dictated points of view in our world.

    Someone said Go out your front door and eat any random plant and it will most likely make you sick or kill you.
    Plants have thousands of compounds in them, many of which act as poisons to humans. Lectins, oxylates, salicylates, cyanide are a few common ones. Animals consuming these act as a kind of filter. Two steps up the food chain, such as tuna, as opposed to sardines, and these compounds are negligible or not present.

    I think we need to understand eating plants in our diet better before the world goes toward veganism.
    I believe so many bad health conditions are caused by the unsuitability of consuming plants to our physiology, we should wake up to this problem.

    • LFO on 19/09/2019 - 22:34

      Carnivore vs Veganism

      I think the alternatives for humans are Omnivorous vs Vegetarian

      Spot on about the "toxicity" of certain vegetables and how animals are somehow better prepared for them.

      Yes, further serious research is needed. Not trying to sell us anything, just real research. Scientific research.

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