Just came across this and I am shocked to learn how Amazon treats people. Anybody has any clue how are the work conditions in Australia ?
BTW I would cut my reliance on Amazon from here onwards.
Amazon Work Conditions in Australia ?
urahara on 21/07/2019 - 11:48
Last edited 21/07/2019 - 17:02 by 1 other user
Last edited 21/07/2019 - 17:02 by 1 other user
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The point missed in all that hype is/was that the workers in Australia don't work for Amazon and it is perfectly reasonable that they use contracted staff while they ascertained the level of demand and required staff. But on the flip side of that it had been a while and still until that article there was no talk of staff moving to employed by Amazon directly, it is questionable whether it would of happened if there wasn't a spotlight on them.
(Does anyone know if any staff have been moved from casual via a work hire company to employed directly by Amazon yet?)
In the US employees are actually fairly well off in comparison to the normal slavery they call employment there; pay is above minimum and they actually receive benefits like health insurance. But of course for better than normal benefits Amazon should require their staff to work at a reasonable rate and are perfectly entitled to track that performance.
It is all a balance of course, places like Baltimore in US have huge levels of staff being fired due to poor performance, but thats obvious you're gonna get a lot of crappy workers in a crappy place. The majority of stories and rubbish you hear about people being rushed are those people who were just bad workers, who didn't want to work hard or just couldn't having a cry after being fired, despite multiple warnings for their performance.
I think a lot of people used to working in jobs they can slack off a bit, I know myself included I spend probably 20 minutes of every hours just browsing crap, then goto Amazon and are surprised at having to do actual work.
Oh come on! So when Amazon is criticised for choosing to have ambulances and paramedics on call due to staff heat exhaustion rather than maintain a safe working atmosphere, that's just having a cry, is it? The problem with a lot of the discussion is that people start from a conclusion and work backwards.
8 years ago Amazon had a heat wave occur and some staff had to have assistance from paramedics.
Its grey / no confirmation or proof what so ever that Amazon ever actually hired themselves paramedics to be on hand.
@deelaroo: From what I've read, Amazon discovered it would be cheaper to not maintain a safe working environment (temperature in this case) and just have ambulances and paramedics on call rather than actually have a safe working environment. Profit maximisation in action. This is similar to a recent story of US retail workers striking because their headquarters wouldn't install/fix air conditioners for many months. I think it was a franchise(s) like Denny's.
These aren't just isolated incidents, it's a pattern of behaviour of cost-cutting to maximise profits. Always seeking to blame the workers is not a helpful strategy to overcome these issues. I hope we can both agree that there is more greed the higher up the corporate ladder you go, so there is naturally more immorality resulting in lower-level employee mistreatment.
As an aside, I strongly suggest not relying on snopes for seeking truth.
As an aside, I strongly suggest not relying on snopes for seeking truth.
So Reddit posts by disgruntled and/or fired workers are truth?
@deelaroo: I would tend to believe the word of multiple powerless people citing examples that illustrate a pattern of behaviour rather than statements issued by public relations professionals. Unfortunately, it's getting progressively more difficult to discern truth from deceit these days as greed and corruption are rooted in our traditional information sources.
@kahn: How many people exactly? and what is the percentage of employees out of the tens of thousands that Amazon hires?
I doubt Amazon fares worse than the average company in terms of working conditions, and probably actually fares a lot better.
The US warehouse I worked at, our managers emphasized safety as the most important thing, it's the first thing that was talked about every morning before work started. There were also teams soley dedicated to monitoring and improving health and safety.
I actually dislike Amazon because of their success. Lots of stores in the US have closed because of them. Ultimately, all of their warehouses will be automated. It may take many more years to get there (even though some warehouses in the us are already mostly automated), but it will happen and it will put even more people out of work.
@TEER3X: It's good to read that your experience was reasonably pleasant. However, your personal experience doesn't justify dismissing other employees' bad experiences which I would assume are/were in other warehouses. We're in agreement that these things happen industry-wide, so definitely not limited to Amazon. However, there's a very bad image portrayed by the fact that the richest person in the world, Jeff Bezos, is amassing a grotesque amount of wealth while many of his employees are working in poor conditions.
On a similar topic, there's a recent story about the heiress to the Disney fortune improving working conditions and pay for Disney workers, I believe after she just became aware of it, or more likely, due to bad press. We should be pressuring (or at least encouraging) business leaders to maintain decent working conditions for every employee. Wealthy people have less empathy than normal, so we can't just rely on them.
@kahn: I just think people like to complain. Like calombaris's and perry's underpaid employees.
How else is someone going to get rich?
I would tend to believe the word of multiple powerless people
Aka disgruntled people? Anecdotes are anecdotes.
@HighAndDry: "Disgruntled people" have toppled monarchies and many governments. If you've got the time, I'd like to read what you think of the situations in both France and Venezuela.
@kahn: France isn't going to topple - at most they'll bend over and give in to the layabouts and good-for-nothings demanding citizenship and money for nothing. Plus, they already had a live culture of car-burning so that's nothing new.
Venezuela is what happens when you pander to "the people" too much and then realise that's not a good system of economic management.
Edit:
In more detail since both are actually interesting situations:
France: This is a reputation issue, where the French government has unfortunately a long history of giving in to labor and popular movements and public demonstrations. All of this emboldens protesters to protest/march/riot/burn cars as they're currently doing. However the issue is going to be that in todays globalised economy, Franch can't really keep up their level of protectionism needed to maintain their standards of living (and effectively free money to a wide section of the population that they're used to) which Macron is trying to reform, and which has been happening since under Sarkozy for the past… jesus, a whole decade now (I'm getting old because I remember when these reforms started and thought they'd run into resistance). The illegal immigrants demanding citizenship "just because" is a whole other issue but their methods stem from the same national culture of getting what you what through protesting loudly and disruptively enough.
Venezuela: Eh, pretty much what I said above. There's not much to add unless you want to get into the details which will take up entire pages all by itself. But the key point is that Venezuela was poised for economic prosperity with their large natural gas and oil reserves, until Chavez decided to natioanlize everything to try and capture 100% of the profits instead of relying on overseas expertise (which Venezuela didn't have) and a cut of the profits. Maduro unfortunately inherited that, except he has even less political savvy and none of the charisma of Chavez.
@HighAndDry: Yeah, this is the kind of response I expected from you. I was about to post a rebuttal, but I fear the Ozbargain gods will strike down upon with my post with great vengeance and furious anger. What do you think, create a new topic or call it quits or send private message?
@kahn: And in relation to Amazon - at some point, "protesting for fairness" turns into straight up extortion if it's "give us money or we'll burn your factory down". They can strike - and that's protected action - except the working conditions aren't that bad as shown by the droves of people more than happy to sign up to work there (which is why striking won't work).
This is just people whining incoherently for more money.
@HighAndDry: Wow, dude. I didn't neg you, but god damn, you sound so much like a slave owner or anyone opposing justice throughout history. Almost as bad as a tyrant.
@Quantumcat: Honestly, it's baffling to me. I would assume most people who spend a lot of time on this site (especially the forums) wouldn't be wealthy people. Therefore, most people would be in favour of the little Aussie battler. Instead, you get people like HighAndDry, whooah1979, and tshow who share the opinion that business leaders are immune from criticism while workers just need to shut up and work harder.
Sure, it's good to have some variety of opinions, but sticking up for the wealthy elite on a bagains site? Just baffling.
@kahn: Some people aren't interested in taking sides - what's fair is fair. There's nothing UNFAIR about agreeing to do work for set conditions for a set pay (that's above minimum wage), and then getting paid as agreed. It's not about whether you're for the battler or for big business.
@HighAndDry: It's a pleasant change to see you writing something sensible. Meds kicked in yo?!
Seriously though, your other comments are more disturbing.
@kahn: Which ones? I (unsurprisingly) find my comments to be fairly rational. Maybe just a different perspective and understanding how things work big picture. Not you personally, but a lot of people who fight for "justice" etc aren't interested in the wider consequences of what they want, and think in terms of "I'll support what's right and the universe will sort itself out".
Which is… great, but idealistic and unworkable practically speaking. Case in point is Venezuela - Chavez said and did all the right things, and there's nothing ideologically wrong with wanting your own country to keep 100% of the profits of its mineral wealth and distributing that to the poor. Practical reality is thousands starving to death.
@HighAndDry: I also like to think that I look at the big picture. I look at posts like yours and it reminds me of my misinformed days. For many years I took a somewhat mainstream attitude to such topics, thinking that the people in the suits and the news reporters knew what they were doing and all was well. I recall the WTO protest in 1999 and thinking to myself "what a bunch of losers". When things were going wrong in the world, I thought that there must be some rational explanation. It's comforting thinking like that - almost like having religious beliefs that can rationalise suffering and injustice. BUT, it was wrong. I guess you could say I became "woke" some time during the Iraq weapons of mass destruction propaganda.
Once we get out of the mainstream media, we can discover first-hand reports and expert analysis of world affairs from people who aren't in fitting with the profit-motivated (corrupt) media. Then we can open our minds and fill it with truth - truth that can finally make sense of the world. There's no more chaos, just an understanding of human behaviour and greed - on a mass scale.
I wasn't going to get into the whole Venezuela thing (I stashed away a draft comment), but let me just tell you, honestly, that practically all the information we are getting about Venezeula is US propaganda. Just look at the misinformation we are given whenever the US wants to overthrow a foreign government or conduct a military strike. It's called manufacturing consent - which is exactly what is happening in Venezuela. The US and the Venezuelan elites have been busy influencing the media. Sure, there are problems that the Maduro government can be blamed for, just like any government, but we aren't getting much truth from the mass media (the humanitarian aid theatrics, ignoring the effects of US sanctions, etc.) So, when I see comments like yours about socialism causing death and suffering in countries like Venezuela, I feel some pity in that propaganda is working.
I look at posts like yours and it reminds me of my misinformed days. For many years I took a somewhat mainstream attitude to such topics, thinking that the people in the suits and the news reporters knew what they were doing and all was well.
Please don't condescend. My views are considered ones and not "a phase" because I haven't outgrown them. I also don't take what I read or see on the news (and certainly not what politicians and governments say) at face value.
Once we get out of the mainstream media, we can discover first-hand reports and expert analysis of world affairs from people who aren't in fitting with the profit-motivated (corrupt) media. Then we can open our minds and fill it with truth - truth that can finally make sense of the world. There's no more chaos, just an understanding of human behaviour and greed - on a mass scale.
This is great but there is very little substance here. People are greedy? Yes. That's part of human nature, can't be changed, can't be avoided. This is also why capitalism works better than socialism, because rather than ignore that it exists or pretend it can be rectified (no, you can't "solve" human greed), it acknowledges its existence and uses it.
In a way, it's a societal version of the corporate governance concepts of aligning interests (which is why we have share plans, KPIs, etc for C-level execs).
that practically all the information we are getting about Venezeula is US propaganda.
Not all of it. Why they were embargoed, etc is basically "Because the US wanted to". But the end results are no different, and the US is within its international legal rights to embargo any country it wants for any reason (sovereignty and all that). And at the end of the day, the only government responsible for the Venezuelan people is the Venezuelan government, not any other, and certainly not the US government.
I'm not falling for propaganda. I'm just acknowledging reality. You don't see Brazil or Argentina or Chile having similar famines and unrest. And in those countries you can blame right-wing regimes for atrocities too, and they were equally to blame as the current Venezuelan government is to blame now.
Good rule of thumb: Whenever you think you have something, especially something as complex as global geo-politics or human nature "figured out", reconsider. These things aren't simple enough that they can be "figured out", and if you think you have, it's very much more likely a sign you've missed something, rather than you stumbling upon some "truth" that millions of other people have somehow missed for centuries.
BTW I would cut my reliance on Amazon from here onwards.
Ok if there is $199 Nintendo switch sale will you buy it? Hehehe
Only if Amazon is losing money like in this deal. I got 3 lol and a $30 voucher from another 3 being cancelled lol!
Do you know how many years Amazon went on without making money?
Making money at the start isn't their goal.
A dealer will give you your first hit free. Sounds great doesn't it?
Amazon would take better care of their employees if only Jeff Bezos didn't have to save up for an ivory back-scratcher.
The amount of business they get say people in general are happy to take advantage of their cheaper prices.
I worked in an Amazon warehouse in the US and loved it. It really depends on what you do specifically.
I was allowed to take all the toilet breaks I wanted and drank plenty of water.
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https://old.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/cfglde/im_a_former_am…
Easy fix. Work faster then go to the toilet, come back and catch up.
BTW I would cut my reliance on Amazon from here onwards.
I ordered on PrimeDay Tuesday and had my package Thursday. That's a pretty amazing achievement for a company to actually get AusPost to deliver something quickly!
If you're going to take a "moral" stance based on a few one sided stories, your world is going to be limited to staying at home.
News flash, everyone thinks they are overworked and underpaid.
This fool starts his rant with, "modern day slavery". He voluntarily applied for a job which he is paid for. Any mention of slavery is not even exageration, it is just false. Slavery isn't a sliding scale of how unfair someone perceives their work to be. Can't walk away alive, slave. Don't want to make lifestyle sacrifices, not slave.
"…made legal due to "grey areas"". A very bold statement about loopholes in the legal system in which his entire experience and rant is predicated upon. Makes no clarification nor details of this "grey area".
Goes on to compare his role as a warehouse labourer to someone working from home and their lunch breaks. They are different roles. If the other role is so amazing and he can do the same thing, why isn't he applying for the same role? He doesn't mention any desire nor attempt to change roles, not for the lack of words… he just chooses to use the words to whine.
Talks about clocking in after lunch and completing first scan, well, from the description (and honestly, common sense) have an order ready to scan as soon as you walk back in. If it's still a minute late, he is late by definition.
Makes another bold claim of "not being a stranger to hard work". No background provided. Everyone thinks they work hard. Some of us work hard enough to provide some clarification of what the benchmark of hardwork is. Complained a lot about how tired (or not driven) he is after work though.
Isn't happy that warehouse tours doesn't show how hard the workers are working. Well, he puts it as it doesn't show the expectation placed on the employees. Now, common sense dictates that if the expectation is beyond reasonable, these employees would literally be running and panicking. I'm not sure about the typical tour participant but I may have the special power of noticing an army of workers running. Either that or no one meets these expectation and Amazon fires the lot and retrains a new crew on a regular basis that ends up working at the same speed as the previous crew once they've familiarised themselves.
His solution to get people more aware of the "inhumane" conditions is to have public shadowing. Why not just take all the walls down and make the servers public accessible too? This person seems to lack the basic understanding of security and confidentiality. (…and the concept of slavery.)
This guy isn't "slaving" away for Amazon by some cruel fate, this person has failed to demonstrate any intelligence beyond that expected of someone who packs boxes.
Do yourself a favour OP, realise that even a private dermatologist exclusively dealing with elective cosmetic surgery in a leafy suburb can whine and moan. The writer makes no mention of poverty/hardship. The only practical difference between the writer and the just described is level of material comfort.
Tl;dr The poster wants money, but doesn't want to work for it.
Pretty much. You can almost always distill it down to: "Why doesn't the company pay me more money for absolutely entry-level skill-less labour?" Which answers itself.
If you have a VPN (or other method), watch John Oliver's episode on this very topic (in the US): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9m7d07k22A
Nah. I liked John Oliver when his "Last week Tonight" just came out, but as I kept watching, he's no better than other sensationalist media sources - takes things out of context and then condescends to whoever he's talking down that episode.
Got tiring pretty quickly, even if it was entertaining for a good few months to begin with.
Yeah, I saw that. As much as I dislike some of his stories and style, he does shed some light on topics that purposefully get ignored or misreported in the mainstream media. More attention needs to be given to the abuses of power, but a lot people are watching sports and "reality" shows instead.
I won't profess to know anything about Amazon and how it treats employees, however for all the complaining about it, do people also complain about some foreign countries in Asia or other less privileged countries that have little regard for workers there?
And to add to that - those "bad" jobs and "bad" working conditions in those countries are some of the BEST opportunities for unskilled workers in those countries. So boycotting those brands/stores/etc? You're just consigning those workers to worse jobs.
It's pretty telling that it's people in first-world countries mostly pushing for these work condition reforms, and not the people actually there and working those jobs.
https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/440984