Digital Audio Player Vs Desktop DAC and Amp, Vs Portable DAC and Amp

ozbjunkie on 09/06/2019 - 22:34

Hi All,

Long post, tldr at the end.

I realise these are different products for different purposes, and I'm hoping you might help guide me in my thought process. My budget is 500-1000aud. I intend to buy some expensive over ear cans one day, expecting 300ohm+ resistance.

I recently bought the Westone w60, they sound great. I also own some Sennheiser hd25, and Shure 112 bluetooth.

In store, I used the A&K A&Norma digital audio player and believe I noticed a difference (improvement) from my phone (Nokia 8). This wasn't a blind test, and I intend to return with a friend to conduct a proper blind test.

At home, I own a focusrite Scarlett 2i2 which works great with my jbl 308 and 310sub (I know. Probably didn't need the sub).

Problem : the Scarlett headphone circuit has a 10 ohm output impedance, and sounds rubbish on my 25 ohm w60s. The hd25s at 70 ohms sound good though.

Now, do i purchase a desktop DAC and amp better suited to my w60, like a schitt stack, which may have the disadvantage of making me listen at my desk. Or do I purchase a DAP like the A&Norma, which has the advantage of making it easy to lay in bed, or sit in the garden and listen. Or do I buy a portable DAC/amp that I can use with my phone, and also as a desktop unit, for greatest versatility (and greater fiddlyness, and potentially less quality than a desktop combo).

Questions:

  1. at a given price-point do desktop combos offer better sound over DAP or portable combos?

  2. What would you guys buy if you only were to by a single device?

  3. Anything I'm missing here in terms of costs/benefits?

  4. Is there a DAP that I could also use as a desktop unit with my PC, that has android for tidal streaming? This would be ideal. I am lost in the search for specs at the moment.

At the moment I'm leaning towards a DAP, even though I don't intend to take the unit out of the house much, just so I can listen in bed/garden/couch etc. I spend so much time in a chair for work and gaming that I think my back is giving out.

———-Tldr—————
I own Westone w60 that sound crap through desktop focusrite Scarlett 2i2, and sound decent through my Nokia 8 phone, and sound considerably better through an A&Norma DAP. Should I buy a desktop combo, portable combo, or DAP?

Thanks!

PS: Yes I'll blind test everything before I buy.

Poll Options

  • 5
    DAP
  • 5
    Desktop DAC/amp
  • 1
    Portable DAC/amp
  • 8
    This noob has excess dollars and not enough sense
Electrical & Electronics

Comments

  • ozbjunkie on 09/06/2019 - 22:39
    +1

    I voted noob, but I am trying folks.

  • thebadmachine on 09/06/2019 - 23:15
    +1

    Alright I’ll try my best to keep it short.
    I am a speaker person, and only own 1 pair of headphones for listening at night so keep this in mind.

    DAP or Stack: both have their compromises, if you were after absolute driving power and sound quality I assume stack is a better bet (also cheaper overall I think both being comparable). With a DAP you may notice limitations when it comes to future hard to drive IEM’s / Headphones. (With high-impedance, power means detail & body, and less so actual volume levels)
    DAP as DAC: yes as far as I am aware many DAPs have this ‘USB DAC’ feature, so it has a mode that makes it a DAC for your computer via USB.
    FiiO has this even on its lower-end models. Be sure to check the specs carefully if you want Hi-Res (DSD etc) compatibility.
    Some FiiO DAPs run on Android so streaming apps can be downloaded and used.
    I would go with a decent all-in-one DAP with DAC, or proper stack, to keep it simple.
    Here are some suggestions in your budget: FiiO M11 / FiiO M9, both do streaming.
    I have read online some consider FiiO M11 to be the best DAP available, but do your own research.

    Notes: I would say being a speaker person, I think the Headphones game is going to cost much more overall (and in the long-term). It may be worth selling your speakers eventually if you are going to get serious.
    Any of the options you mentioned will likely sound a lot better than the Nokia smart-phone.

    • ozbjunkie on 09/06/2019 - 23:44

      I like my speakers but my neighbours don't. But yes one day a set of event opals would be nice.

      Considering getting serious… Really I just think I deserve a present for being such a good boy.

      • thebadmachine on 09/06/2019 - 23:47

        Then sell the speakers ASAP before they drop in condition / value.

        • ozbjunkie on 09/06/2019 - 23:48

          Nah never. I made a promise to love them forever.

  • serpserpserp on 09/06/2019 - 23:35
    -3

    Wow when did this place become OzAudio?

    • thebadmachine on 09/06/2019 - 23:38

      Yes I can understand this, maybe some of these questions are better asked on a Audio / Hi-Fi forum.
      I think we are just hoping people will help on the forum already often visited.

      • ozbjunkie on 09/06/2019 - 23:43
        +1

        Yep, I could head over to head fi but I like you guys so much more.

        • thebadmachine on 09/06/2019 - 23:45

          That sounds rough, they must be tough on the newbies. Oh and also search for a previously posted threads for the same thing you are asking. Seen a lot of punishment on people who ask questions which have already been answered. (Disclaimer: this may be a different Audio forum I am talking about)

          • ozbjunkie on 09/06/2019 - 23:47

            @thebadmachine: Yeah I haven't found them unkind, this is just my online home.

            I'm reading up, but wanted some in house guidance, which you gave kindly delivered. Thanks!

            PS, people here are mean. 3 votes for noob! Ouch guys, ouch. It burns.

            • thebadmachine on 09/06/2019 - 23:50
              +1

              @ozbjunkie: Take it easy, it’s the internet.
              I think the flaw in your post was making it a poll. Some will just vote noob because you put that option there.
              Better to have a post with zero replies, than a 100% noob vote outcome.

              • ozbjunkie on 10/06/2019 - 00:17

                @thebadmachine: Yeah I figured anyone with real advice would write something. There's gotta be a snarky/joke response - one must keep the masses satisfied.

        • Wystri Warrick on 10/06/2019 - 11:28
          +1

          I love you too op.

    • ozbjunkie on 09/06/2019 - 23:45

      I like seeing this new direction. Everyone has their batteries by now, surely.

    • AncientWisdom on 10/06/2019 - 15:44

      Hey, look, some reasonable well thought out responses! I guess there is some cross between people who like to save money and people that are into good quality audio ;-)

      • thebadmachine on 10/06/2019 - 22:33

        Disclaimer: I can only speak for myself, but I consider myself an enthusiast.

      • ozbjunkie on 11/06/2019 - 00:12
        +1

        Agreed - what's the point of saving all the money on petrol and biscuits unless you're going to treat yourself to fine audio, big TVs, and graphics cards that double as heaters in winter.

  • roastchook on 10/06/2019 - 03:02

    Underpants

    roastchook on 10/06/2019 - 03:02 (Collapsed - Offtopic. Show)
    • ozbjunkie on 10/06/2019 - 04:29

      Sorry, don't use them. They muffle the sound.

  • thereyougo on 10/06/2019 - 09:01
    +1

    I just purchased the FiiO M9 after 2 weeks of research and looking around. M9 has dual DACs, will drive IEM's and 300ohm headphones. I would of bought M11 but couldn't bring myself to shell out extra clams for not that much difference.$250 for a bigger screen and 4.4mm output, dual sims and a few other things. Maybe I should've got the M11, oh well, made my bed, I'm 99% happy with M9.

    • ozbjunkie on 10/06/2019 - 22:41

      Nice, I had missed this model in my search. Re use as a desktop DAC, I see it used usb-c which is great, can the M9 be used powered by wired without charge, ie can you bypass the battery? I feel this would extent life of the product by reducing excessive a cycles on the battery, which is an issue I read with the mojo recommended below.

  • Ozpit on 10/06/2019 - 11:08
    -1

    WRONG forum. A bit like a NASA scientist asking OzBargainers for the best mathematical formula when designing the nose-cone of a rocket to minimize fuel use when passing through the rarified atmosphere of Jupiter.

    • ozbjunkie on 10/06/2019 - 20:03

      Read the posts. I know the right forum, but actually heaps of people buying 500 dollar cables over there, so no place is perfect. Besides, heaps of good advice here.

      I appreciate being called a NASA scientist in your analogy though. Thanks for the compliment.

      • Ozpit on 12/06/2019 - 19:21

        No harm intended. Just a bit of humour. Glad you're getting some valuable advice from members.

        Whenever I see a bunch of incomprehensible (to me) technical terms, my head begins to spin (like most OzBargainers, I suspect) and my eyes glaze over.

        I remember all the research I did, including reading umpteen reviews and trolling various forums (not OzBargain :-)) before buying online (and untried) a set of Sennheiser HD 598 CS headphones and SoundMagic E10 earbuds.

        Result: I wasn't impressed with either, and rarely use them. OK, so they are not exactly high order equipment, but were around the limit of what I wanted to spend.

        My advice now (including to myself) when buying sound equipment: always listen first before buying. People experience sound differently.

        Good luck with whatever you finally decide.

  • frondono on 10/06/2019 - 12:36
    +1

    Audio-GD NFB-11 is all you really need. Should be able to do everything you ever need of it.

    • ozbjunkie on 10/06/2019 - 22:49

      Looks beautiful. I'm leaning towards a more portable option as this point but the reviews are really interesting. Seems like high quality internals.

  • EDM on 10/06/2019 - 13:16
    +1

    I'd recommend a Topping unit, either the DX7s or DX3 Pro. Great value and no nonsense marketing/snake oil.

    • ozbjunkie on 10/06/2019 - 22:50

      And cheap too (well the dx3 is and I don't need the balanced output of the dx7).

      At the risk of starting a religious debate, what are your thoughts on oem vs custom cables for connecting components? I'm leaning towards inaudible differences, as in the oft-cited "coathanger experiment" but I'm all ears.

      • EDM on 10/06/2019 - 23:35
        +1

        I typically rely on measurements to avoid any placebo/snake oil, so I don't personally believe in the benefits of custom cabling other than to make it look a certain way, or offer greater durability. The only thing I have a custom cable for is my IEM's and that's purely for the colour/look.

        • ozbjunkie on 10/06/2019 - 23:40

          Cheers. Yeah from my reading, cables with a microphone are worse than non-mic cables, but aside from that, unless your cable is defective, it's splitting hairs (or, a single hair).

      • thebadmachine on 11/06/2019 - 16:24

        Personally I would get the DX7s over the DX3 Pro, I prefer the Sabre sound (clinical detail) yes I am obsessive and dual ES9038Q2M is end game.
        Even if you use un-balanced, DX7s is a strong preference.

  • ck16 on 10/06/2019 - 14:21
    +1

    If you’re looking at a portable DAC for under $1,000 - take a look at the Chord Mojo.

    Reviews:
    https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/chord-electronics-mojo.2101…
    https://www.whathifi.com/chord/mojo/review

    I’d go for a portable DAC over a DAP as you’re not reliant on the manufacturer supplying software updates to support new formats, etc.

    Also the sound from a Samsung Galaxy S/Note or the LG V40 (has a built in DAC) is quite good without the need for an additional DAC.

    • IamaCam on 10/06/2019 - 15:16
      +1

      agree with the Chord Mojo. used it and was so surprised how much of an improvement on non-audiophile headsets and IEMs.

      • ozbjunkie on 10/06/2019 - 22:04

        Been reading up on the chord mojo, seems like sound quality is top notch, but 1 year warranty and Amazon reviewers with units dieing around the 12 month mark doesn't bode well. How long did/has yours survived?

        The slow charge and inability to take direct power when plugged in to the PC is a second major issue.

        Thanks for the input though, still considering that as an option… But not a leading option.

        • IamaCam on 11/06/2019 - 10:02

          the one I used was a friend's.. he's had it for 2+ years now i believe. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the charge and powering issues. He uses it purely as a portable DAC when travelling (a lot of travel).

          • ozbjunkie on 11/06/2019 - 11:13

            @IamaCam: No worries. I have since learned that both the entry level fiio DAPs and the ifi micro have battery bypass… They are looking like top contenders at the moment.

            • IamaCam on 11/06/2019 - 13:43

              @ozbjunkie: which ones are you thinking of? I have been toying with the idea of getting either the chord myself or a fiio but was told to stay away from fiio ..but have no experience with them.

            • thebadmachine on 11/06/2019 - 16:29

              @ozbjunkie: I read up on the iFi battery DAC’s, one person shared: once the battery dies, the unit ceases to function.
              Person in the thread said it lasted about a year (admitted it could have been a bad battery), then iFi person reached out (in the thread) and offered to replace the battery if they sent it in. In Australia this (battery replacement) may be a bit of trouble.

              Note: there were a few people suggestion DIY options, one person shared they bought a new higher capacity battery, and had to change the connection plug (cutting / soldering wires) then got the unit up and running.

              • ozbjunkie on 11/06/2019 - 18:16

                @thebadmachine: Ok good to know… That's an onion in the ointment.

                • thebadmachine on 11/06/2019 - 18:27

                  @ozbjunkie: The whole point of their design is their ‘iPurifier’ feature. Which is a power mode it can be run in, which cleans the power somehow using the battery power.

                  A copy n paste from an iFi representative said something along the lines of: if you think of iFi DAC as an engine.

                  USB power mode = E10 / 91 octane, iPurifier = 95 octane, Linear power supply (iFi have a few options) = 98+ octane fuel.

                  iFi make some good DAC’s. I just personally would consider only the plug in only versions (edit they are way out of my budget).

                • thebadmachine on 11/06/2019 - 18:33

                  @ozbjunkie: Also if you read this comment in my post.
                  Burr-Brown chip tends to have rolled off highs, if that matters to you.

                  • ozbjunkie on 11/06/2019 - 19:30

                    @thebadmachine: Ok thanks heaps, will review and compare when I listen to some different options.

                    I don't mind if the highs roll off a little, but I don't want the sound to be too dark. What that all means for my subjective experience with these DACs, only time will tell.

                    It's a process, but a fun one.

    • thebadmachine on 10/06/2019 - 22:28

      I’d go for a portable DAC over a DAP as you’re not reliant on the manufacturer supplying software updates to support new formats, etc.

      I think this will only apply to very recently released models.
      If I remember correctly the models I mentioned have received their full feature firmware updates.

      I would say phones & DAP’s (portables) both may lack ‘headroom’. Meaning you may be using it close to max volume with thirsty headphones, which will encourage distortion (sound falling apart) in addition to draining battery. Disclaimer: I have little user experience with audio using DAP’s and phones.

      One advantage I can think of with Portable is clean power. (If you get to this stage with a Stack you will be looking at linear power supplies etc).

      • ozbjunkie on 10/06/2019 - 22:52

        Oh no. Linear power supplies. I don't want to take any more course units, this cert 3 in hifi is challenging enough.

        PS, I'd probably only use IEMs as portables, and if/when I get a phat set of cans they will sit firmly on the desktop.

        • thebadmachine on 10/06/2019 - 22:58

          Yes expensive fragile things stay indoors. At least with our budgets.

  • thebadmachine on 10/06/2019 - 22:41

    I think just get the strengths of each option clear (maybe write it down with pen & paper).
    Then do some research on the particular models you are considering.
    Then your answer should be quite clear (information processed with your person in your head).

    • ozbjunkie on 10/06/2019 - 22:45

      Yep that's the plan, but some interesting suggestions in replies have me weighing up the benefits of each model, which is having me lean on favour of a DAP with desktop mode and battery passthrough. I can't be bothered with multiple devices when mobile, and mobile DACs seem inferior to desktop DACs anyway, so if I'm going to compromise on sound quality for portability I might as well get a DAP.

      Now I'm stuck between models that come with tidal streaming only (eg M9), vs models with the ability to side load more apps like Spotify (a&Norma). I think the Norma cannot be used in desktop mode… So that's unfortunate.

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