Will This Change Your Mind about Amazon AU?

jackspratt on 27/02/2019 - 16:29

ABC online has done a fairly long article on what it is like to work at the Amazon "Fulfillment" warehouse in Dandenong.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-27/amazon-australia-ware…

The key points from the workers (sorry, "associates") seem to be:

  • the workplace is built around a culture of fear where their performance is timed to the second;

  • they are expected to constantly work at ‘Amazon pace’, described as somewhere between walking and jogging;

  • high-pressure targets make them feel like they can’t go to the toilet and sometimes push them to cut safety corners;

  • they can be sent home early without being paid for the rest of their shift when orders are completed; and

  • everyone is employed as a casual and constantly anxious about whether they’ll get another shift.

Amazon has responded with what to me seems to be a set of glib and reptitive boiler-plate answers to the issues raised by the ABC:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-27/amazon-australia-resp…

It has certainly given me food for thought over whether or not I would order again from Amazon.

How about you?

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Comments

            • HighAndDry on 02/03/2019 - 17:32
              -3

              @PAOK11: Are you saying employees should be paid without an expected level of performance? Guess only socialists would understand that.

  • thebadmachine on 01/03/2019 - 15:59
    +1

    I see a lot of engagement and discussion. Let’s get straight to the point here, if Amazon was the only store that supplied a particular product you needed. I think we would all put the well-being of another fellow human being aside and purchase the product. It’s happening everywhere, we choose to be ignorant, out of sight out of mind.
    These warehouses (particularly Amazon) will be run by robots & AI very soon anyway, so the question is, what is the purpose behind running their current employees this way? To collect human worker data to compare to the future automated robot workers? To collect this data to show to the shareholders and sell off this data to other companies who are behind in automation?

    • thebadmachine on 01/03/2019 - 16:15

      One could say they are indeed part of this simulation and they are doing what they do so the future is better for the up-and-coming generations. There are many difficult jobs that exist, which people are subjected to, such as mining/police/federal police/EMT etc. This is without mentioning hard/sexual slave labour which still exists. One day everyone will be glad people put up with this kind of work, to confidently convince others of how terrible it is, then there will be the incentive to use AI and robotics in the future to replace human beings in these jobs.
      A lot of people who have never worked these tough jobs may think/say “your taking away their jobs their livelihood.” While those who actually worked those jobs may say “I’m glad people don’t have to work those jobs anymore. No person should have to do that job.”
      Let’s replace police with AI and drones with guns. EMT’s with robot surgeons, sex workers with sex-bots, slaves and other labour intensive work with labour-bots.
      Continueing the idea that the human police force has put up with centuries/Millenia with the work they do, A decade or less of strict Amazon factory work seems like a good deal to help push the work towards automation.

      • HighAndDry on 01/03/2019 - 17:04
        -1

        The more capable and useful robots get, the more useless about 90% of people become.

        My basic philosophy is that you should be self-sufficient - if not directly, than by providing enough value to society to justify society keeping you alive. Otherwise you're just a burden on your community and a net detriment.

        By that philosophy, if you're good for absolutely nothing but taking and packaging products off a shelf, you might want to re-examine what you're actually worth.

        • thebadmachine on 01/03/2019 - 17:48

          Thanks for sharing your philosophy. That was kind of you even though you seem to have a bit of a bleak outlook.
          I thought this topic was about working conditions, and not so much skill level/required skill level. Therefore my comparison of Amazon to law enforcement/EMT’s etc.

          • HighAndDry on 01/03/2019 - 17:53
            -1

            @thebadmachine: It is bleak, I'm a bit of a misanthrope, and definitely bearish on the average human. I'm surprisingly bullish on the potential for human achievement though, but that's usually only relevant to the best 1%-10% of us. I don't even count myself among that number.

            Anyways, tangents aside:

            I thought this topic was about working conditions

            This has to be looked at in the context of the overall workforce. Applying my philosophy more narrowly, you can only demand working conditions if your contribution to the employer justifies the cost of employing you, working conditions included.

            No company has an obligation to employ anyone, so once a worker's value to the company falls below the cost of employing them, the company will just stop employing them. That's what people here don't seem to understand: they can use laws to force employers to treat workers a certain way, but push too hard and the worker is now unemployed.

            That's also why I've been repeating that people who aren't out there creating jobs themselves, might want to stop criticising those who do. Because in the end, these workers need and want jobs more than they need random people giving them moral support.

    • HighAndDry on 01/03/2019 - 17:02

      No, they employ people because people are still cheaper than the cost of automation - for now. Automation is getting cheaper all the time. And if people here get their way, the expense of employing people goes up, and Amazon moves to automation that much faster.

      • thebadmachine on 01/03/2019 - 17:44

        Yes I am aware the cost of machine automation is still not viable for most. I was referring to the purpose of ‘running them’ this way. It seems Amazon are pushing the limits to human efficiency, in a similar way to the success of McDonald’s, a well engineered system works like automation.

        • HighAndDry on 01/03/2019 - 17:48

          Occam's razor says they're doing this because higher efficiency = higher returns. I don't think there's a "collect data" element at all, other than how to further optimise their human workforce.

          There's surprisingly little correlation between how a human would best perform a task, and how a machine would best perform the same task - human physiology is terribly 'engineered' for these types of things anyway, we're too versatile, too 'jack-of-all-trades'.

          • thebadmachine on 01/03/2019 - 17:49

            @HighAndDry: Yeah I’m sure they have enough data on human workers already.. just a thought.

            • HighAndDry on 01/03/2019 - 17:54

              @thebadmachine: I don't doubt that either - in which case, they're probably doing this to maximise efficiency, because higher efficiency minimises their costs and maximises their returns.

      • [Deactivated] on 02/03/2019 - 12:57

        Yea expense of employing people goes up. Smaller businesses cannot afford to employ people or move to automation, smaller businesses close. Market share and labour supply gets controlled by an increasingly smaller number of huge corporations who can afford to hire a small number of very skilled workers and use delegate the rest of the routine stuff to automation. Sure that is going to help everyone achieve the dream of equality.

        Everyone is complaining about open borders and lack of unions. I'd say closed borders and unions is what drove housing bubbles and drove inequality up in the first place. And when technology caught up (because capital can move but labour movement is restricted). Jobs go overseas or is streamlined away but the large number of lower skilled workers are stuck within their own unaffordable borders that were caused by short-term wage hikes caused by unions (which have no leverage against the progress of technology).

        People underestimate that there are 7.5 billion people in the world who are not very different from them in capability, eventually most of them become equal in skill/training and a significant portion become highly skilled in manipulating technology. There was a huge part of the economy occupied by many union jobs and kept inflated with closed borders. All that money was just waiting to be siphoned off into the hands of a few people who had the technology not to be restricted by labour numbers of borders.

      • Baniya on 02/03/2019 - 13:14

        They’ll have a volume tipping point. Below it, it will be cheaper to have people. Above it (if Amazon becomes huge is Aus), it will be cheaper to install automation.

  • burns13 on 01/03/2019 - 18:30
    +2

    Yes. A companys workplace practises influence my decision to do business. Amazon au prices are crap anyway

  • Aap Ke Papa on 01/03/2019 - 22:19

    Loving Amazon and their superb customer service.
    Must have interviewed some lazy asses at Amazon.

  • [Deactivated] on 01/03/2019 - 23:37
    +3

    Amazon are an absolutely hideous company to work for including the corp employees, many articles have been written about how bad a company they are to work for.

  • regenade on 01/03/2019 - 23:43

    I dont like why ScoMo is not doing a European Commission, put a $5 Billion fine and keep giving it to dole bludgers . Amazon will immediately shut shop and go back. Done and Dusted. Gerry Harvey will also donate a $1 Billion happily to return back to his golden days

  • [Deactivated] on 02/03/2019 - 01:14

    As long as no puppies are harmed, I'm OK with it.

    • [Deactivated] on 02/03/2019 - 12:47
      +2

      Hang on, my Prime membership has just kicked up to $6.99/month. Now that is an outrage.

  • spriggan43 on 02/03/2019 - 10:47
    +4

    Typical OzBargain discussion, it's a very interesting subject, but everyone thinks they are right, and no one is really walking away with a different point of view, 😒

    • goldiep on 02/03/2019 - 19:33
      +1

      Sounds like society in general…

  • Sage on 02/03/2019 - 11:02
    +1

    Article really seems to push a narrative. Really difficult to take it seriously.
    A lot of the claims and sources aren't actually related to the Amazon warehouse. It makes me suspect they've cherry-picked the real information about the place to help the "creative" write up.

    Anyway the dot points in the original post here make it sound like any other job.

    • Sammyboy on 02/03/2019 - 23:24

      Yep. Its the ABC. You wouldn't expect anything less!

  • ozbargainer88 on 02/03/2019 - 12:08
    +2

    Meh if they are operating in Australia then they are working to Australian standards. Knowing that, I'm gonna keep buying Amazon stuff because they are offering great prices and competition to Aussie market.

  • Mosher on 02/03/2019 - 13:21
    +1

    If the working conditions are upsetting you from buying from amazon Aus then you better not buy any apple products etc

    • Hybroid on 02/03/2019 - 13:25
      +1

      You should actually, as they have improved their supplier responsibility and have some of the best worker conditions in the industry now. Read their progress report: https://www.apple.com/au/supplier-responsibility/

      I love Amazon, having used them for over a decade in the UK with same/next day delivery and quite excited to see them expand here.

    • smartazz104 on 02/03/2019 - 14:08

      Why would you specifically target Apple when most manufacturers use China. At any rate, this is OzBargain, where people will buy from China to save money; a country not know for its great working conditions.

  • BartholemewH on 02/03/2019 - 14:25
    +4

    This won't change anything. I haven't bought anything off Amazon Australia, and will continue not buying things from Amazon Australia, because Amazon Australia's range/pricing is shit.

    • Hybroid on 02/03/2019 - 14:28
      +2

      They've only recently started out in Australia and will continue to increase their product range and pricing. They're consistently the cheapest for game pre-orders at the moment.

      I believe they have a huge warehouse under construction at Moorebank and their services will continue to improve until we have same day delivery in metro cities for most products.

      They started off in UK as being cheapest for book deliveries (before the e-reader trend) and have since become a huge megastore juggernaut there now where you can buy almost anything with next or same day delivery. It's a matter of time until they reach that status here and have severe impact on the high street shops.

  • drlgnrl on 02/03/2019 - 16:26
    +1

    Literally every single medium to large sized business in the world has an equivalent of 'Amazon-pace'. It's performance optimisation - why should someone oay employees to slack off? Why should someone roster on an employee who's less efficient than someone else?
    As long as they pay an appropriate wage for the function, I don't see it as exploitative so much as assumed entitlement of the individual.

    No different to call centres who offer abysmal base pay but 'amazing' commission opportunities, bricklayers or tilers being paid by the sq/m or even still, fruit pickers paid by the crate.

    If there's a failing, it's due to insufficient government employment policy encouraging casualization of the workforce.

    • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 03/03/2019 - 08:08
      +1

      call centres who offer abysmal base pay but 'amazing' commission opportunities, bricklayers or tilers being paid by the sq/m or even still, fruit pickers paid by the crate.

      Except every example you just presented are examples of the paid for performance model. Exactly the opposite of Amazon.

      Amazon could incentivise workers by offering bonuses over specific targets, but it's far cheaper to just have a casual workforce constantly worried about their ongoing employment.

  • T1OOO on 02/03/2019 - 19:06

    Eem local Amazon is a joke. I’d never even consider opening the site to check something out. Launch was a failure and it continues to be.

    Oh but don’t worry I’m sure they are working on ways to automate the process and eliminate the need for human workers to pack and send orders. Delivering them by driverless car and drone would also be next on the radar and they they’ll be complaining how they lost their jobs they loved.

    • bender000 on 02/03/2019 - 19:29

      I only end up buying local Amazon if it comes up on Ozbargain lol i.e. its worth it.
      I always double check vs ebay, general google, specialist comparison sites like staticice etc. and very rarely does local amazon have the best deal. Helps that ebay is throwing out discounts left right and centre. I mean half the time they can't even beat catch or kogan lol.

  • kaleidoscope on 02/03/2019 - 19:32

    Will This Change Your Mind about Amazon AU?

    no.

    consumer market is always about best bang for the buck. it sucks but thats just a fact.

  • goldiep on 02/03/2019 - 20:57
    +4

    This information and the use of workers in on going casual arrangements is alarming. If exploited, it's completely legal to have a large proportion of a businesses workforce being ongoing casual; no employee sick leave, no annual leave, ability for the business to push employees to burnout then replace with new employees, etc. - some potentially attractive cost savings measures for unethical employers. What else might employers get away with if they could? If you're happy with this with no expectation on Amazon to do anything, where do you draw the line? Are the child miners in Africa acceptable?

    "If you don't like it, get another job" is the reason why these arrangements permeate industry and modern employment. Would you still feel the same way if it was your child, partner or someone close to you coming home and reporting these issues? What about if it spread to your occupation/industry (which could very well happen with the rise of non fixed employment contracts and the gig economy)?

    I believe Amazon has responded with some changes since the publication (which was also published in other media outlets) - why change if there are no issues? And if the publication is a driver for change, the organisation and internal management culture should look at how they are engaging and consulting with their workers.

    • goldiep on 02/03/2019 - 22:28
      +1

      Reading the post, my comment does not seem reasonable about the child miners. What I'm asking is, when or to what extent (as a consumer) would you not feel comfortable engaging with a business that may disregard the well-being of their employees for profit?

      • thebadmachine on 03/03/2019 - 00:08

        I think the answer lies in those who laugh, at another’s expense. It happens a lot I can see it everywhere. I take things seriously but most will not hesitate to laugh at another’s expense. Unless, someone calls them out for it on the spot. And you just tell them how it is, are you laughing at another’s expense? Then they realise the very thing they are doing, and start caring about being desirable, being reliable and un-expendable, Yes I think it comes down to that in the end, they want to be included, and to survive. So they comply.

    • thebadmachine on 03/03/2019 - 00:03
      +1

      I think what you are getting at is ‘employment’ vs ‘work’. Employment is supposed to have all those things you mentioned. Work is take what you can get. Apparently less than 30% of the world has employment. So I think it should be thought of as a fortunate minority. If what you say is true and more, yes it is troubling, they are finding legal ways to change the definition of employment.
      As it can be seen from another perspective in the new App Service model (Uber, Uber eats, Deliveroo, Airbnb etc) who refer to their employees as contractors (reminds me of prisoners / detainees). Short term high return tech businesses which are expected to have a short life in which they exploit their workers and jump ship leaving everyone in the dust whenever substantial capitol is gained. The laws have not caught up to these new industries and people are being exploited all over the place.

      The corporations and investors who continue to press those majority who lack employment and skills will face them one day, keep pressing and see what happens, they will be stringing the smart-arses up on the lamp posts in the streets. The rennaisance was an anomaly. Now imagine these smart-arses are now business men and politicians (instead of linguists/philosophers/artists). Onward to the sharing economy.

      • paddy567 on 03/03/2019 - 21:46

        Sadly, these models aren't new, they are as old as time and a trip to any developing country shows where they are in full swing. Standard of life there is crap most all but 5% elite, of course. But we forget that here in Aus.

        • thebadmachine on 04/03/2019 - 02:16

          All about perspective I guess. I think the South American Aztecs and Maya had the right concept of time. Each line represents a timeline, and they all run parallel. Change, great progress or growth is all a result of our binary perspective. Dead or alive we are all experiencing the same reality.

    • paddy567 on 03/03/2019 - 21:45

      You nailed it. This isn't about Amazon, it's about the way corporations have co-opted our politics and regulatory framework, and slowly but steadily eroded worker rights in Australia over the last three decades and change. Most of this has come through the coalition, but Labor have been on board for a lot of it too.

      Subcontracting arrangements like this are a scourge that should be banned, companies are only doing it for plausible deniability with regard to exploitation.

      The workforce is increasingly casualised - "more flexibility!" cry the corporates. Yes, flexibility for them, most certainly. Meanwhile you never know when you're going to work, for how long, you can be fired at the drop of a hat, and your actual employer doesn't give a crap. Forget about leave of any description.

      Penalty rates are going down, underemployment is going up. EBAs have screwed swathes of workers over, as if pitting one person against a phalanx of lawyers and multinational companies is fair.

      Striking grows increasingly difficult.

      Dodgy training schemes and fake certificates are used to avoid paying a full wage and claiming some shelf monkey is now "qualified" to pick up a freaking can and put it on a freaking shelf - that's a certificate III right there! But we had to pay you 4 bucks an hour until you got qualified, of course.

      A lot of people here and in general I think forget what working conditions have mostly been like since industrialisation. It wasn't pretty. Weekends, annual leave, penalty rates, super, workers compensation. Take a trip back to the 20s to see what life was like for most people without these things.

      Hell, just take a peek at Ameria to see how corrosive to a society this level of inequality is.

      Amazon is just a symptom, it's not the disease.

      • T1OOO on 04/03/2019 - 07:25
        +1

        Oh really ? It’s the politics and government?

        Grow up and get a clue. It’s nothing to do with them. It’s globalisation and equality. It’s the fact an Asian is prepared to work twice as hard for twice as long for half as much. Compete or die. That’s why our auto industry died. It’s exploiting third world countries like good old imperialism, so what you really think is going on ??

  • Sammyboy on 02/03/2019 - 23:22

    Always 2 sides to every story. Given its the ABC, I would say there's a rather left field politcal agenda here and a lot of exaggeration. At the end of the day, if its too difficult, I'm sure Amazon wouldn't hesitate to pull their operations from Australia.

    • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 03/03/2019 - 08:17

      What political agenda to you believe is being pushed here?

      Amazon admitted most of the article via scripted responses here https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-27/amazon-australia-r…

      • Sammyboy on 03/03/2019 - 15:27
        +3

        Just read the questions. They are mostly leading questions. Journalism in Australia (actually in most 1st world countries) has gone down the drain these days. Nothing like journalism 20+ years ago. I would call it "opinionism" now. Amazon replies haven't admitted to anything. Its a casual workforce that will be slowly transitioning into a permanent workforce once their operations settle down. Amazon deny a lot of the allegations in that interview. You don't think Target, Myer, Coles etc etc don't have a largely casual work force too? Of course they do.

        • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 03/03/2019 - 16:48
          -2

          They are mostly leading questions

          The questions to Amazon? All of them except for possibly one are certainly not leading. They are asking the exact questions regarding allegations they reported in order to obtain a direct response.

          Amazon replies haven't admitted to anything.

          They failed to retort several of the allegations made. Amazon's silence of those allegations is fairly damning.

          Nothing like journalism 20+ years ago.

          When everything was covered up?

          You don't think Target, Myer, Coles etc etc don't have a largely casual work force too?

          Straw man argument.

  • jetabe on 03/03/2019 - 00:32

    Why?
    This happens in Au warehouse i should change my mind.

    If i change my mind i should consider all of exploiting markets of the world.
    That wont leave me with much as consumer. So when i renounce the world i can.

    It seems wheels are turning for the good
    https://www.smh.com.au/business/workplace/amazon-hires-perma…

  • GregMonarch on 03/03/2019 - 01:22
    +2

    No, nothing the ABC says would change my mind about anything - because I stopped watching ABC when it became a toxic leftist propaganda machine YEARS ago.

    • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 03/03/2019 - 08:18
      -1

      How about Amazon's admissions?

      https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-27/amazon-australia-r…

      • GregMonarch on 03/03/2019 - 08:34

        LOL, you missed the joke. My comment was more about the (un)reliability/(non)objectivity of the ABC, than anything about Amazon. ;-D

        • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 03/03/2019 - 09:21

          No, didn't miss anything.

          You said nothing the ABC could do would change your mind. Next minute ABC post Amazon's responses essentially conceding the majority of the article was accurate.

          How's the hypocrisy of objectivity now?

          • Dabbler68 on 03/03/2019 - 13:48
            +2

            @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: If you can't see the hyprocacy and lack of objectivity in ABC's article then you're not thinking clearly. It may be accurate for what they DO include, but where is the other side of the argument? Jobs for so many people? Fitness benefits? Keeping prices down? Nope, not mentioned.

            What about those who enjoy such physically demanding jobs as others have said here?

            Isn't it hypocritical to complain about the hard work, but then complain if shifts stop being allocated?

            If the work was too hard they wouldn't be able to get anyone to do it. Yet they appear to have a steady stream of people keen to give it a go.

            • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 03/03/2019 - 16:37

              @Dabbler68: Did you even read what I posted? Or are you just another particular age and demographic Caucasian Australian jumping on the anti-ABC bandwagon?

          • GregMonarch on 05/03/2019 - 10:18

            @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: So you got the joke, but decided to whine a bit longer anyway. Ok. No Antifa meeting on this week I guess. ;-D

            • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 05/03/2019 - 10:26

              @GregMonarch: Ah, so you're one of those boomers who we see on posting in Facebook groups all the time.

              • GregMonarch on 05/03/2019 - 10:32

                @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Nope, don't use facebook. (Just read a crypto-related article about that pathetic company - they've just opened up everyone's phone number to PUBLIC access - which was originally supposed to be for SECURITY purposes. Meanwhile they're lobbying government to make security even MORE lax than it is currently.) I just like to think for myself - not read/hear/view the ~60% of nonsense brainwashing the ABC has become.

      • Sammyboy on 03/03/2019 - 15:29
        +1

        You really need to read that article properly mate. There is no admission to anything wrong

        • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 03/03/2019 - 16:39

          Yes we noticed your anti ABC comments in other parts of this thread.

          "We are in the process of transitioning the majority of associates to full time permanent employees with competitive pay and benefits, as we have done in other places where we operate around the world." repeated ad hoc, just lol. Corporate ass covering.

      • brendanm on 05/03/2019 - 18:14

        Admissions? They answer the questions with the same answers over and over, they don't admit anything really.

        I especially love how the ABC pretends to be upset that Amazon allegedly hires lots of recent immigrants. They would be the first ones down Amazon's throat if they didn't hire any recent immigrants.

  • this is us on 03/03/2019 - 11:31
    +3

    Just read this article this morning:
    NEWS.com.au: Uniqlo employees call out retailer for toxic bullying culture causing PTSD.
    https://www.news.com.au/finance/business/retail/everyone-has…

    Would you stop buying from UNIQLO?

    • Sammyboy on 03/03/2019 - 15:31
      +1

      These days, being denied a raise is probably classified as bullying lol HR is definitely a booming industry in this era.l

    • thebadmachine on 04/03/2019 - 02:30

      Your link makes me also think of the solidarity which can arise from social media/the internet. Allowing smaller groups to organise and speak out against unfair treatment or any disfunctional system.
      But we must remember not all information can be considered accurate or useful.

      This reminds me of a picture I saw on the internet, it was a hand written note in poor English by a Chinese factory worker, claiming to be from a labour camp, forced to work unhealthy hours etc.
      The note was hidden inside one of the Halloween decoration boxes being sold at Kmart, and the guy in the US who purchased took a photo of it.
      No internet and no power for these people in China.
      Apparently one of the big Chinese tech companies has also been linked to these labour camps.
      I will not mention the name because I do not know for certain if and which company it was.

      https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/world/asia/man-details-ri…

    • HighAndDry on 04/03/2019 - 14:51
      +1

      HAHAHAHAHA retail jobs causing PTSD. Fk, these people are trivialising a real illness suffered by people who've actually suffered through real trauma. I wonder how many people the reporter had to ask to find the 3 who were willing to badmouth Uniqlo.

    • brendanm on 05/03/2019 - 18:16

      "Some form of PTSD". Idiots like this make people very blase about people suffering from actual PTSD.

  • 00000000 on 03/03/2019 - 11:41

    I don't think this will change anyone's buying habits at all.
    Watch this space, Companies will be keeping a close eye on this and sooner or later we will see this same model applied to other industries.

    If we don't put a stop to it now we will be subjected to the same sooner or later.

  • Jamie007 on 03/03/2019 - 14:16
    +1

    Amazon isn't unique. Workplace rights and conditions have been eroding for a long time in this country. I work at a distribution centre for a certain major Australian corporation and the standards we're held to are basically impossible to achieve by following safety regulations and SOPs so everyone is pretty much forced to work unsafely. And then if there's an incident you'll get the sack for not following the SOPs.

  • Black Brown Blue on 03/03/2019 - 19:18
    +2

    All these products that get made is China from workers working 12 hour + shift earning very low salary, you are fine to use these items and have been doing so for years. When a corporation tries to do the same here you start complaining. If you don’t want to do the job, quit because someone else will. (Nothing against you OP)

  • asafasr on 03/03/2019 - 20:36

    Why is everyone in Australia so against merit based work?

    • HighAndDry on 04/03/2019 - 14:56
      -1

      Because there's a prevalent entitlement mentality where people think they "deserve" a certain amount of money and standard of living for doing nothing but breathing.

      There's a thread where someone else asked why there should be "performance standards".

      • asafasr on 04/03/2019 - 16:46
        +2

        It’s pretty retarded, in my mind two people doing same work and person a is delivers 1000 packages in 5 hours and person b delivers 500 packages in 5 hours then person a should totally be given more pay. Get (profanity) with the equal pay bullshit

      • thebadmachine on 04/03/2019 - 17:02
        +1

        China’s social credit system.

        • HighAndDry on 04/03/2019 - 17:03

          That's messed up for so many reasons, but I seem to be missing my coffee because I don't see the relation to my comment.

          • thebadmachine on 04/03/2019 - 17:07
            +1

            @HighAndDry: I mean it is basically being rated on performance standards. Which is defined by the government: dob in your neighbour +1 point, pick up trash +1 point
            And when you go below 0, no train for you, no air travel for you, no education for your kids, no tax benefits etc.

            • asafasr on 04/03/2019 - 17:12

              @thebadmachine: When they start basing performance on social standards then I agree with you. But this is about production, stop sidetracking the argument.

              • thebadmachine on 04/03/2019 - 17:15

                @asafasr: Yes but to suggest being rated on performance for work is a similar concept, just instead of for the government, you are doing it for the corporation.
                I’m think being rated on performance at work is quite an acceptable concept.
                Edit: and who knows how social credit systems will affect things ? China is doing other countries a favour by doing trials & gathering the data (its only being rolled out in certain regions). A benefit of having different countries and governments.

            • HighAndDry on 04/03/2019 - 17:18

              @thebadmachine:

              I mean it is basically being rated on performance standards

              Yes, but being rated on performance when you're being paid to do a job is a lot different from being rated socially in return for government services (where the individual is paying taxes for).

              If anything, it should be the opposite way around - the government should have to meet performance standards for the services they provide.

              • thebadmachine on 04/03/2019 - 17:23

                @HighAndDry: I just don’t think it’s as simple as that currently in today’s modern world, getting paid. I guess I’m just more open minded.

                • HighAndDry on 04/03/2019 - 17:27

                  @thebadmachine: Why not? You do a job, you create value, someone gives you the cash equivalent of the value you created.

                  It's not really much more complicated than that - the only point of complexity in the modern world might be how people assess the value that you're creating, but that's a "how" thing, not a "what" thing.

                  • thebadmachine on 04/03/2019 - 17:33

                    @HighAndDry: What is a gain, and a loss. It is not just sectioned off to what you earn and what you spend. Social performance/education/health/many more things are connected to a persons ability to contribute & make gains and losses, and they are not all credits and deposits. It’s ok I’m not trying to convince you of anything. Just that I see the world as more abstract.

                    I agree with you there is a value to contributing. We all contribute differently, I am of the belief that you cannot go through life without contributing. Just some choose to less than others.
                    Your worst case scenario seems to be a story I heard in hospital of a person who is perfectly capable (arguable but for the sake of example), but refuses to engage with reality, they won’t even get out of bed, they won’t even wipe their own arse or walk to the toilet. They don’t speak, they in a sense, don’t choose to live. They require 24 hour care and these people exist, the nurse who mentioned it was saying this person was not a rare case either. There are actually people who live like this.

                    • HighAndDry on 04/03/2019 - 18:10

                      @thebadmachine:

                      We all contribute differently, I am of the belief that you cannot go through life without contributing. Just some choose to less than others.

                      I actually agree completely with this, but with one caveat: If noone is willing to pay you actual cold hard cash for what you're "contributing", it doesn't count. So this includes things like "being a good friend, being a good mother/father/husband/wife - unless someone is willing to pay you for doing these things, it doesn't count. Because if you're a friend to someone, I assume they're being a friend to you too. If you're a mother, someone's being your son or daughter (and no one but you gets the benefit of that in your old age). Etc.

                      There are actually people who live like this.

                      These kinds of people make me question the pretty universally accepted notion that everyone is entitled to a basic standard of living. Eh….. if someone won't be self-sufficient, do they really deserve to have their needs funded and provided by others?

                      • thebadmachine on 04/03/2019 - 18:26
                        +1

                        @HighAndDry:

                        These kinds of people make me question the pretty universally accepted notion that everyone is entitled to a basic standard of living. Eh….. if someone won't be self-sufficient, do they really deserve to have their needs funded and provided by others?

                        Just trying to point out that this is a crazy world. Imagine absolutely anything you want, and odds are it’s happening right now.
                        I’ll end the discussion here, it’s a difficult area, and we have made it well off into the “off-topic”.
                        Thanks for sticking with the discussion.

                • brendanm on 05/03/2019 - 18:19

                  @thebadmachine: Haha so if I was to work at your business and get paid identically to everyone else, but I sat around all day arguing with people on ozbargain, that would be fine with you?

                  • jackspratt on 05/03/2019 - 21:17

                    @brendanm:

                    Haha so if I was to work at your business and get paid identically to everyone else, but I sat around all day arguing with people on ozbargain,………..

                    Is that a sly dig at H&D?

  • happirt on 03/03/2019 - 21:03

    ceo isn't one of the richest in the world for doing the usual…
    it's not like they were forced to sign the contract, or even stay in the job if they are not satisfied with it.

    if you want a laid back job get a position at an australian company…

  • Munki on 04/03/2019 - 10:50
    +2

    As an owner in Amazon shares, no.

  • rr64 on 04/03/2019 - 12:05

    I've never found amazon au's prices or selection of products all that impressive. I was excited when I heard they were opening but it has turned out to be a big fat nothingburger honestly.

  • Jumpup on 04/03/2019 - 13:58
    +3

    Are you serious??? That’s life working at a top 4 bank everyday

    • HighAndDry on 04/03/2019 - 14:57
      +2

      The people complaining here are either on the dole or students who've never worked a day in their life. Or both I guess.

  • Leeroy Jenkins on 04/03/2019 - 15:25
    +1

    Quoting the last paragraph: “Jeff Bezos has got the most money of any person on Earth. He’s not earning that money. That’s the money we’re making for him.”

    This is laughable. Does the person saying this have the same skill set as Jeff Bezos and hence the difference in earning is unfair? Does he/she take the same risk as Jeff Bezos? I'm surprised someone would say this. If the person has even remotely the characteristics of Jeff Bezos, he/she probably wouldn't be at this job to start with. Either accept this, or accept communism.

    Soo this article is complaining about capitalism. If a person doesn't like the job there, they can try finding a job elsewhere. That's what I've been doing all my career. I don't just stay at what i think is a shitty job and keep working there and complaining. I know, people will find excuses about finding another job is hard.

    • HighAndDry on 04/03/2019 - 17:04
      -1

      That’s the money we’re making for him.

      Right? Go make your own money then instead of taking a job at Amazon. Blah.

    • brendanm on 05/03/2019 - 18:21
      +1

      People don't seem to understand how much risk and skill it takes to make a successful small business, let alone something like Amazon.

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