How to Recover $22,000 after Mistaken Internet Payments?

jayzee on 20/02/2019 - 01:52
Last edited 27/11/2023 - 12:08 by 1 other user

Before we start, this is not an internet scam thing, money was not sent to Nigerian Prince, it was just transferred to a wrong person, 11 times!

My friend has set up a periodic bank transfer to pay an employee $2000 weekly last year. However, he unwittingly chose a payee details from previous payee list due to similarity of the names. This error was only discovered after 11 transfers had been made to the wrong person. Sounds unbelievable but it's true. The total of $22,000 has gone to the wrong recipient.

It seems lot of people doubt that how come there were 11 transfers before the error has been discovered. On their behalf, I have contacted my friend to make the story straight.

It's a husband and wife restaurant business, normally wife is in charge of setting up of payroll and make payment. Husband asked wife to setup a transfer to pay the employee. When the employee notice the payment didn't come, he contacted the husband, then husband couldn't see the payment to the correct person, so he paid him through another fund. He forgot to check with his wife on this matter.

The wrong recipient was paid once on 2016, so his bank detail is on the payee list.

That's why it was only discovered after 11 transfers.

The money was sent from Bank S to Bank A, which was wrong recipient's bank. He has contacted his own Bank S, told them the mistake and asked them to recover the money on his behalf. After a while, Bank S sent 11 letters to him, all but said one thing, Recover is Unsuccessful, End of Message.

He has contacted Bank S again, they told him they couldn't help him anymore, he should contact the person who wrongly received his money directly. Is this a correct advice?

He only has the person's name and bank detail, no address though. When he tried to contact Bank A, they told him they couldn't help him due to privacy laws. Fair enough.

Here are some options I can think of:

1) ask a lawyer to send a letter of demand to Bank A, demand Bank A to freeze the fund and return to my friend.
This is base on the Fact Sheet - Mistaken internet payments from Financial Ombudsman Service.
"Between 10 business days and 7 months: the recipient's bank will freeze the funds.
The recipient will then have 10 business days to show they are entitled to the funds. If
they do not, the funds will be returned to you. "

2) report to Police, it should be equivalent to the case that you drop your wallet, someone picked it up but unwilling to return it back to you. right?

3) engage professional service, e.g. private investigator, debt collector, even bikies? the dilemma is that the amount of the lost money may not be quite substantial to cover the cost in the end, so is it a worthwhile option?

Can any fellow OzBargainer come up a recourse to recoup the money? Or the money is lost forever due to bank unwilling to assist anymore.

Thanks in advance

TLDR: $22000 was sent to wrong person due to genuine mistake, not due to scam, how to get it back

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Comments

    • one man clan on 20/02/2019 - 09:08
      +2

      Seems like when it's the bank mistake it's free for all: https://www.news.com.au/finance/business/banking/malaysian-s…

      But it could be different when it involves a human transfer?

      • CyberMurning on 20/02/2019 - 09:33

        gesus how come she walks free??? come on! doesnt make sense!

        • HighAndDry on 20/02/2019 - 09:55
          +2

          Because it was Westpac's fault and she didn't do anything to cause them to mistakenly transfer her money.

          • CyberMurning on 20/02/2019 - 11:54
            -2

            @HighAndDry: if she just let the money sit there, im 100% okay with she should walk free.

            but from the news:
            1. she spent them hard on luxury good. shopping very hard. (forget about from parents bullsht we know its stupid lie). in fact, this lie could be point number 2. good people dont lie.
            2. she tried to hid those money into multiple other accounts.
            3. she tried to run from Australia instead just come clean.

            those 3 points, she should be in jail. just to give example for others.

            • HighAndDry on 20/02/2019 - 11:57
              +5

              @CyberMurning:

              1. She's a very young international student being funded by her parents who by all accounts did actually transfer her thousands a week for living expenses - I find it reasonable she thought the money was hers.

              2. She's an international student who generally do have multiple accounts (and she did online shopping, which necessarily means even more accounts like Paypal/etc).

              3. She's an international student, of course she'll leave Australia to see family and friends. She also came back to Australia completely voluntarily and un-prompted.

              The criminal justice system has a very high requirement for proof for a reason. "To set an example to others" in a borderline case like this would be a travesty. Jail is not a joke - it should not be thrown around casually.

              • CyberMurning on 20/02/2019 - 12:34
                -1

                @HighAndDry:

                1. nah, no 21yo at this century can be considered young and naive anymore. when you get extremely big present from parents, will you call and say thank you? and from that point she knew her parents wasnt the sender
                2. nothing to do with international or local.
                3. she applied for some kind of emergency malaysian pass after police call her. definitely try to run away.

                ah, its difficult but please be honest for a second. do you really think she is innocent? with all those bags she stocked up. with the parents story. with the running away. its simple story: she got money and thought wow its free its mine i didnt steal it so why i cant spend it. then when bank found out she afraid and try to run. its logical. stupid. but still, wrong. we need to make sure it doesnt happen again. she is adult. she know what is Gucci. she need to be punished.

                • HighAndDry on 20/02/2019 - 12:35
                  +4

                  @CyberMurning: You don't seem to understand how the lives of (very) rich and spoilt international students are. They pretty much get unlimited money transferred from parents whenever they need it. They literally don't think about where money comes from, because they've never needed to.

                  • CyberMurning on 20/02/2019 - 12:37

                    @HighAndDry: haha. of course i understand. but its not in one day any parent will give $4m without reason. and i said, its not about rich or not. when she got the money (obviously not every month she got $4m, right? she will call and say thank you mum for the $4m and the parents will say what we didnt send it.

                    • HighAndDry on 20/02/2019 - 12:53
                      +2

                      @CyberMurning:

                      she will call and say thank you mum

                      See, this says you don't understand these kinds of people. Some might. Others take it very much for granted.

                      Also I don't think you read the details of what happened. There wasn't $4mil deposited into her account, Westpac just didn't put a limit on her overdraft facility.

      • leiiv on 20/02/2019 - 10:18

        It is not a crime so the criminal suit was dropped. I don't think westpac will stop the civil suit though.

      • jayzee on 20/02/2019 - 12:21

        It doesn't stop Westpac to start a civil suit in her own country and palm off the debt to local debt collector to recover the loan.

        I agree it's not a criminal case, but she used the loan/credit provided by Westpac, Westpac is entitled to recover the loan.

    • jayzee on 20/02/2019 - 10:59

      You are exactly right.

      • [Deactivated] on 20/02/2019 - 13:07

        I didn't think it was possible for a corporation to do a civil suit against an individual?

      • leiiv on 20/02/2019 - 14:49
        +2

        OP, find old posts like:
        https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/346549
        https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/106955

        and you will the the discrepancies in responses.
        SO, it would be one or another, whether you can get back money transferred by mistakes (no worries spending unknown money in your bank account) OR you cannot get back money transferred by mistakes without significant cost and effort (do not touch unknown money in your bank account).

        I still do not know which one is right.

    • ely on 20/02/2019 - 20:38
      +1

      In general 1) is wrong, 2) is right

      This is for non-business though - I don't know what applies for businesses.

      https://www.fos.org.au/custom/files/docs/fact-sheet-mistaken…

      What if I transfer money to the wrong account?
      If you have made a mistaken internet payment, you need to contact your bank or credit
      union immediately. Your bank or credit union will then contact the unintended recipient's
      bank to try and get the money back.
      If the money is still in the other person's bank account and it is a genuine mistake
      (because the account name and number do not match), then the process for recovering
      the money depends on how quickly you have reported the mistake to your bank. If you
      report the mistake:
      Within 10 business days: the funds will be returned to you.
      Between 10 business days and 7 months: the recipient's bank will freeze the funds.
      The recipient will then have 10 business days to show they are entitled to the funds. If
      they do not, the funds will be returned to you.
      After 7 months: the funds will only be returned if the other person agrees.

    • callum9999 on 21/02/2019 - 20:50
      +2

      The second is generally right.

      The inconsistency is there because many people on here love seeing others suffer from their stupidity so put more effort into denouncing them than actually helping. A feeling a share when the OP is being obnoxious, but that's not the case here obviously.

      • jayzee on 22/02/2019 - 01:13

        That's sadly the human nature, made more easier hiding from other side of keyboard.

      • HighAndDry on 22/02/2019 - 19:00

        I generally believe in two things:

        1. That stupidity does, and should, have consequences. But that's not the main thing here.

        2. Primarily that you should be self-sufficient. If OP could recover the money himself, go for it. But he's blaming the bank (and regulators, and the police, and others) for not helping him recover the money.

        I don't think OP gets to blame others for not helping him mitigate the consequences of his own actions. If he can do it himself, I wouldn't mind one bit.

  • qwerty on 20/02/2019 - 09:06

    Work backwards

    Why did they send that person money in the first pace and maybe you can find some more info .

  • toniyellow on 20/02/2019 - 09:33
    +4

    the Fact Sheet - Mistaken internet payments from Financial Ombudsman Service.

    This fact sheet is not relevant if your "friend" is paying an employee - as it says in the fact sheet, it does not apply to businesses.

    It is also designed for situations when a person doesn't know who they accidentally sent the money too because they made a typing error - it sounds like he does know who the person is, as he clicked the wrong name in the list, not mistyped a number

    He has contacted Bank S again, they told him they couldn't help him anymore, he should contact the person who wrongly received his money directly. Is this a correct advice?

    This seems to be sound advice. If the person doesn't pay it back, then find a lawyer and pay for legal advice. A business should not be wasting the time of the Financial Ombudsman Service to fix mistakes that are entirely their own fault. Businesses should have processes in place that mean mistakes like this are unlikely to happen, and if they do they should own up and fix it themselves.

  • GG57 on 20/02/2019 - 09:48
    +2

    I can't see why either bank is in any way responsible, as it appears that they transferred the funds exactly as directed.
    They have, when requested, attempted to recover the money but were unsuccessful.

    I'd say the (unintentional) payee has drained their account.

    Unless you can somehow locate the (unintentional) payee and try to recover directly from them, I'd say move on and learn from the mistake.

  • dazweeja on 20/02/2019 - 10:03
    +3

    "He only has the person's name and bank detail, no address though"

    This seems a bit strange. This is someone the business has paid, and presumably worked for the business, before. Surely they had contact details for them then?

    • jayzee on 20/02/2019 - 11:28

      He explained to me, that payee had been paid quite a long time ago, he has no details of him anymore.

      Let's say even he has that person's address, should my friend just show up on his front door and demand the money back? Or he should go to Police/Lawyer?

      • josho9 on 20/02/2019 - 22:48
        +1

        Send a letter instead of turning up at the front door, and also speak to a lawyer.

  • tooblue on 20/02/2019 - 10:05
    +1

    To put it this way.

    I purchased a service / product from a Joe for $22,000. I paid through bank transfer. Joe delivered the service / product. After sometime I claim I wrongly transferred the money to Joe. It could be a private job or second hand product without invoice.

    How to Recover $22,000 after this "Mistaken" Internet Payments? Should Joe return the money? Is bank in the position to do the investigation?

    • jayzee on 20/02/2019 - 11:23

      I didn't neg you though, thanks for reply it.

      However, MIP from ePayments Code (FOS/ASIC/Banks) states that

      "Between 10 business days and 7 months: the recipient's bank will freeze the funds.
      The recipient will then have 10 business days to show they are entitled to the funds. If
      they do not, the funds will be returned to you. "

      It seems it requires Bank A to make an inquiry though.

      • highdealer on 20/02/2019 - 13:41
        +5

        The ePayments Code sets out a process that will help consumers get your money back
        if it has gone to the wrong account. The ePayments Code is administered by the
        Australian Securities and Investments Commission (ASIC)i
        . The Code does not apply to
        small businesses who make internet banking transactions.

        This code does not apply to your "friend". Are you choosing to ignore this even though it is highlighted?

      • FirstWizard on 22/02/2019 - 11:43
        +1

        This point exactly.

        It's clear that the ePayments code does not apply to businesses. However, even if it applies, the receiving bank must be satisfied that this is a mistaken payment for them to take this action.

        The definition for mistaken payment according to the ePayment code is:

        mistaken internet payment means a payment by a user through a ‘Pay Anyone’ internet banking facility and processed by an ADI through direct entry where funds are paid into the account of an unintended recipient because the user enters or selects a Bank/State/Branch (BSB) number and/or identifier that does not belong to the named and/or intended recipient as a result of:
        • the user’s error, or
        • the user being advised of the wrong BSB number and/or
        identifier.
        This does not include payments made using BPAY.

        So from the receiving banks point of view, there is no mistake about it. The name of the recipient matches the account number and that's it.

        Reversing or freezing accounts this kind transactions can set a very wrong president that has cascading effects.

        • They would have to freeze accounts of many of the gumtree transactions just because the buyer says I sent the wrong person.
          usually, you don't get any document from the buyer when you provide a service/ sell an item. How do you prove that you're entitled to the funds?
        • Employers would be able to request temporary freezing of employees accounts asking return last 7 months wages just because the guy did a crap job. And the guy worked on a verbal agreement has no evidence that he actually worked.
        • Someone rents (or boarding at) a room without a proper contract for 11 weeks. Pays rent via bank transfer. after leaving the place tells the bank that he sent 11 payments mistakenly. The landlord has to produce evidence, but they do not have a contract. The renter conveniently did not include rent in the payment description.
  • [Deactivated] on 20/02/2019 - 10:16
    -4

    One option you might have is to sell that debt to a professional debt recovery agency.

  • John Kimble on 20/02/2019 - 11:10
    +1

    I would do Option 1 and 2, and contact FOS (might not help, but worth a shot).

    Do you really need a lawyer for option 1? Genuine question.

    Edit: Option 1 doesn't seem to apply in this scenario, but I could be wrong.

    • jayzee on 20/02/2019 - 11:19

      So far two of three lawyers he contacted turned him down, probably thinking it's not a worthwhile for the trouble.

      One has agreed to write a letter on his behalf to Bank A to inform bank that one of bank's client has wrongly received money from my friend, and he intends to claim it back. Not sure if Bank A needs to respond to this.

  • jayzee on 20/02/2019 - 11:13

    Thanks for people have put in the constructive advice.

    To answer some doubters: Yes, the transfer was done by my friend, not an imaginative one. He is in restaurant business, I didn't ask him why he has to pay $2000 to someone weekly and why it took 11 weeks to discover, he didn't divulge, I didn't ask.

    We are not here to blame bank, just asking if bank has done enough to help a client, base on the FOS/ASIC/Banks ePayments Code. Currently my friend has only been informed the recover attempts were unsuccessful. The Mistaken Internet Payments factsheet from FOS does not say what next step should be if recover attempt via bank is unsuccessful.

    People do make mistake, Bank make mistake too. Some mistakes can be fixed, some can't, granted. Here, we just to try to find some possible ways to fix an expensive mistake. It could be beneficial to people who make the same mistake in future.

    Should my friend go to Police now? It seems to me, it's comparable to you drop a wallet on street, someone picks it up and run away with it, you see who picks it up, and you happen to know him by name but doesn't know where he lives. Isn't that logical thing you are going to report it to Police?

    Another avenue is to engage legal professionals, so far, two out of three lawyers have turned him down, probably thinking sum is too small to make it worthwhile.

    Thanks again for people have spent time to read this and reply to it.

    • ace888 on 20/02/2019 - 11:28

      $2000/weekly…

      Then the employee (that SHOULD have received his salary) didn’t even check his/her pay for 11 weeks!!!

      It’s a bit hard to believe, unless he/she is in medical emergency / super loaded ($2k per week, and guessing net income after tax at this point)

      • jayzee on 20/02/2019 - 11:32

        He didn't say whether it is a salary or supplier payment or some other arrangements.

        He didn't divulge, I didn't ask.

        Why it took 11 weeks to discover? I didn't ask. I suppose I can ask him, but does it help to recover the money?

        Sounds unbelievable but it's true.

    • Ughhh on 20/02/2019 - 11:29
      -1

      Should my friend go to Police now? It seems to me, it's comparable to you drop a wallet on street, someone picks it up and run away with it, you see who picks it up, and you happen to know him by name but doesn't know where he lives. Isn't that logical thing you are going to report it to Police?

      Probably more like, youre a red head who dropped your wallet (no ID) , someone picks it up and gives it to the next Red head they see.

    • John Kimble on 20/02/2019 - 11:34
      +1

      Should my friend go to Police now?

      Yes, the "recovery is unsuccessful" because presumably the incorrect recipient has transferred the money out of their account, hence it cannot be frozen.

      You could try to report it via 131 444 (police assistance line), but they'll likely direct you to the local police station. At least if you call 131 444 they will list all the things you will need to lodge the report. Eg if your friend prepares a full and detailed statement of events in advance, copies/screenshots/receipts of the transfers, the letters from the bank etc saves them writing one out when they are there or having to go home and come back.

      You can even call the actual police station in advance too.

    • honeybadger7 on 20/02/2019 - 11:38
      +2

      You can report to the police, but they will do nothing. You basically gave free money to someone, you put the details in and press paid. It’s all on you and your responsibility.

      Also, sure say you drop your wallet but know the person name but nothing else, do you really think they’ll go and look for that person, because lots of people have the same name and they’ll need lots of resources to find the person with the same name to find a wallet, something which they probably don’t have time for.

      • John Kimble on 20/02/2019 - 12:06
        +4

        You can report to the police, but they will do nothing

        Yes they will. It might take a while (because they probably have higher priority things on their plate), but they should eventually follow it up. They just need to contact the bank and officially request the account holder information. Whether or not the account details are still valid/current or the person still has the money somewhere else is another matter… worst scenario is the person has spent it all…your chances of recovery are slim.

        Best scenario is if it is like this guy who put it in his savings maximizer…at least he can collect interest until someone claims it! https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/6849441/redir

        You basically gave free money to someone, you put the details in and press paid. It’s all on you and your responsibility.

        Yes, but generally speaking, legally (and morally), you cannot just keep money that is transferred to you if it doesn't belong to you/wasn't intended for you.

        https://www.fos.org.au/custom/files/docs/fact-sheet-mistaken…

        You should not spend or withdraw the money transferred into your account by mistake because it is not legally yours and you have to pay it back.

        • HighAndDry on 20/02/2019 - 12:18
          -1

          but they should eventually follow it up. They just need to contact the bank and officially request the account holder information.

          Not necessarily. There's no evidence of any crime being committed here. Police might help, but they could as easily decide this isn't their problem. Which it isn't.

          • John Kimble on 20/02/2019 - 12:24

            @HighAndDry: The money is gone from the account. That means a crime has possibly been committed. This is something the police would need to investigate first, they cannot/should not make a call on that without checking.

            Yes, the account holder might come up with a bullshit story that they thought it was from their long lost auntie or something to get out of a charge/conviction, but unless they are terribly rich or there is some other reasonable explanation for them thinking the money was theirs, I reckon they knowingly knew the money wasn't theirs and spent/transferred the money out.

            • HighAndDry on 20/02/2019 - 12:27

              @John Kimble:

              The money is gone from the account. That means a crime has possibly been committed.

              That's a stretch. The requirements for "crime" are a bit higher than that.

              This was last year. It could well have sat in the account for months, the bank then contacts the account owner that "Hey, you have money in this account that seems to be unused". The account owner then just transfers it out assuming they left some money in it and/or forgot about it.

              There doesn't need to be any malice or dishonesty here - and the onus is really on OP ('s friend) to show to the police that there may have been.

              Again, the police may decide to help, but they certainly aren't obliged to in circumstances where OP ('s friend) was the one primarily at fault and who made the mistake.

              • John Kimble on 20/02/2019 - 12:33

                @HighAndDry:

                There doesn't need to be any malice or dishonesty here - and the onus is really on OP ('s friend) to show to the police that there may have been.

                Maybe I'm just jaded/cynical…but c'mon…you wouldn't question $22,000 over 11 weeks coming into your account unexpectedly?

                • HighAndDry on 20/02/2019 - 12:35

                  @John Kimble: Depends if the account was monitored - it might have been an empty account someone forgot to close and doesn't monitor. And then years later they get a message from the bank "Hey you have money in this account that seems to not be used."

                  • John Kimble on 20/02/2019 - 12:37

                    @HighAndDry:

                    And then years later they get a message from the bank "Hey you have money in this account that seems to not be used."

                    I've never heard of such a thing/process. Closing of empty dormant accounts (over 5 or 7 years) yes, but not ones with money in them…doesn't sound like a thing a bank would do. Happy to be corrected.

                    • GG57 on 20/02/2019 - 13:05
                      +2

                      @John Kimble: Stand corrected; refer the Unclaimed Monies Act.
                      Bank accounts become unclaimed after 7 years if the account is inactive (no deposits or withdrawals). That is the only criteria, nothing about the balance in the account. Unclaimed money received by ASIC is transferred to the Commonwealth of Australia Consolidated Revenue Fund but is available to be claimed at any time by the rightful owner and there is no time limit on claims.

                      • John Kimble on 20/02/2019 - 13:08

                        @GG57: Fair enough.

                        But do banks proactively attempt to contact account holders in the way HighAndDry mentions?

                        • GG57 on 20/02/2019 - 13:13
                          +2

                          @John Kimble: From ANZ's website (as an example)

                          ANZ will notify you (based on address information held) that the account will be closed if you do not take steps to reactivate the account.

                          • John Kimble on 20/02/2019 - 13:17

                            @GG57: Yep, so just saying they'll deactivate/close your account. Not "you have unused money in this account".

                            • GG57 on 20/02/2019 - 13:29
                              +1

                              @John Kimble: Oh come on.
                              You get a letter from a bank that says:
                              …the account will be closed if you do not take steps to reactivate the account…

                              First thing anyone would do is check to see what the balance is (if not already mentioned in the advice from the bank).

                              Closing a bank account which has a zero balance is, obviously, not covered by Unclaimed Monies (as there is none to claim).
                              And a bank account with a negative balance is, obviously, a different case yet again.

                              • John Kimble on 20/02/2019 - 14:27

                                @GG57: I could use the "oh come on" for anyone who receives money into their bank account from an unknown source/unexpectedly and spends it or transfers it out. Which I believe is what has happened here.

                                • CyberMurning on 20/02/2019 - 14:28
                                  +1

                                  @John Kimble: correct John. its just common sense. and anyone over 6 years old should know that. no lame excuses such as "oh i thought my parents sent me those"

                                  • ssyl9 on 20/02/2019 - 15:04
                                    +1

                                    @CyberMurning:

                                    its just common sense. and anyone over 6 years old should know that. no lame excuses

                                    Same can be said about the sender not realising money is sent to wrong person right

                                    Also you may think 2000 a month is a lot.. but if you have multiple accounts that is over 500k~1mil and have multiple investments/income. Will you actually realise you are getting additional 2k per month in one of your accounts?? For all you know it could be a payout from a business/investment/job from the multi income source.

                                    Normally people don't check accounts in transactional values unless something is way off.. 2k can be way off for you but can be as little as loose change to someone else.

                                    Also, why are we blaming the receiver when the sender is the one that did the mistake. Sure they should contact the bank when they get unexpected funds but it is only "should" not a "must"

                                    • callum9999 on 21/02/2019 - 21:00

                                      @ssyl9: It's not a crime to mistakenly send money to someone though…

                                      We're "blaming" the receiver because they are in possession of the money. That they may not know they are in possession (pretty farfetched but yes, possible) is irrelevant.

      • jayzee on 21/02/2019 - 15:26
        +1

        Police has no interest in taking the case, cited it's a civil matter.

        My friend has just been back from police station.

        • John Kimble on 21/02/2019 - 15:33

          Lame. I'm genuinely surprised tney didn't take it on to at least try to contact the account holder.

    • HighAndDry on 20/02/2019 - 11:46
      +1

      We are not here to blame bank, just asking if bank has done enough to help a client

      You're blaming the bank for not helping enough. When in truth, they have no obligation to help when it was completely your friend's mistake.

      It seems to me, it's comparable to you drop a wallet on street, someone picks it up and run away with it, you see who picks it up, and you happen to know him by name but doesn't know where he lives. Isn't that logical thing you are going to report it to Police?

      You didn't drop your wallet. You gave your wallet to a random stranger on the street.

    • trapper on 20/02/2019 - 13:34

      Your friend hasn't even asked for the money back yet… what is the crime you would report?

    • [Deactivated] on 20/02/2019 - 17:12

      "It could be beneficial to people who make the same mistake in future."

      Unlikely, unless you have 20 grand to burn on such an error. You would have to be an idiot, uncaring about money or completely negligent to make this kind of mistake. Strange they cared so little about the money to make such a mistake, but suddenly care about it now. Sounds like there's more to it to me. I wouldn't even be asking 'for a friend' with only part of the story. Could be some kind of dodgy deal now gone wrong or anything.

      • highdealer on 21/02/2019 - 00:34
        +1

        Exactly, sound like a case of tax "minimisation" gone wrong.

  • Bonbi on 20/02/2019 - 11:29

    However, he unwittingly chose a payee details from previous payee list due to similarity of the names.

    This does not make any sense at all.

    If your friend chose a previous payee then there would have been a previous relationship in which they should have contact details for.

    • jayzee on 20/02/2019 - 11:35
      +1

      The payee who had previous been paid is quite long time ago, he has lost the contact details.

      It sounds plausible to me, once you setup a payee then it stays forever until you delete it from you payee list.

      • HighAndDry on 20/02/2019 - 11:49

        It doesn't sound plausible at all - if this was a new employee, why would your friend be picking from a list at all? Surely they'd know they wouldn't have their bank details and would need to input new details.

        • Trung on 20/02/2019 - 13:23
          +1

          Maybe they did add the new name and details in, but then when going to transfer, picked the very next one on the list because they have a very similar name.

  • garetz on 20/02/2019 - 11:44
    -3

    The person who was paid the funds, why would they even know who the money was paid by ? How can they be accountable for a mistake your friend made.

    If i was your friend i would put this situation down to their own stupidity, put the 22k down on the loss column of their business, and write the loss off on their taxes, thats pretty much the best they can expect to make of the situation by minimizing their losses.

    • dcep on 20/02/2019 - 13:05
      +8

      If this was, "Unknown $22,000 in bank account, what should i do"

      Responses would be,

      "DO NOT TOUCH THE MONEY"

      "CONTACT BANK ASAP"

      "DO NOT ATTEMPT FRAUD"

      "YOU ARE GOING TO JAIL"

      • leiiv on 20/02/2019 - 14:43

        Yeah it is weird that the responses people gave are contradicting..
        For example:
        https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/346549
        https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/106955

        I think for someone who makes $50K per year, if it is a small amount like $20K it is not worth it to run away with the money. But if it is more than $1000K…

      • garetz on 20/02/2019 - 14:47

        What crime was committed, fraud requires intent by the recipient, the fraud was perpetrated by the person who mistakenly sent the money in the first place, they defrauded themselves, so should they goto jail too? Stupidity is no excuse for randomly spewing opinion.

        • dcep on 20/02/2019 - 14:51

          https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/346549

          Stupidity is no excuse on lacking common sense.

          • ssyl9 on 20/02/2019 - 15:12

            @dcep: examples are banks transferring money.

            This is totally different as the individual has done it.

            Also examples are in millions.

            Seeing millions popping up in your account is very hard to not notice..

            2000 a week… to some wealthier people it is very hard to notice..

            Like if I accidentally transfer $2.50 to your account per week for 11 weeks… will you actually notice that?

            • dcep on 20/02/2019 - 15:16

              @ssyl9: if you wrongly transferred $1m to me, can i spend that money ?

              • ssyl9 on 21/02/2019 - 16:48

                @dcep: I will not wrongly transfer $1mil to anyone as I double check every transaction above $100.

                Also if this kind of thing does happen, I will employ a lawyer and ask for options. I wouldn't think Banks are responsible for my wrong doing

            • John Kimble on 20/02/2019 - 15:17

              @ssyl9:

              Like if I accidentally transfer $2.50 to your account per week for 11 weeks… will you actually notice that?

              Good point. But personally I think I would, yes. Within a few weeks.

              I have a credit card that is paid via direct debit monthly. I shouldn't pay any interest. Got charged 31 cents interest recently. Would have noticed it if it was 31 cents credit also. I still haven't called them to understand why though…

              • highdealer on 20/02/2019 - 15:55
                +1

                @John Kimble: A lot of credit card don't have an interest free period for things like cash advance. So if you happen to have some sort of cash advance payment, they will start charging interest straight away for that.

      • leiiv on 20/02/2019 - 14:53

        You should really post that as a new topic. I am curious of what the actual responses would be..

      • ssyl9 on 20/02/2019 - 15:20
        +1

        well of course.

        Because knowingly spending money that you didn't earn is fraud.

        But how do we know the recipient actually is aware about this in the first place??

        • dcep on 20/02/2019 - 15:26

          Exactly.

          What if i "unknowingly" spent that money, and the next question is,

          Do i need to return it after you've claimed they're incorrectly transferred?

          • ssyl9 on 20/02/2019 - 16:23

            @dcep: morally you should return as much as you can within your ability.

            but legally it is a 50/50 on whether if they wanna sue you for it in a civil case and if your lawyer is good enough.

      • HighAndDry on 21/02/2019 - 10:21

        Yes, advice would differ depending on which side of an issue you're advising - because in both cases you want to be more conservative in your advice, instead of advising someone to go right up to the line (legally, ethically or morally) because often that line is not well defined.

        • callum9999 on 21/02/2019 - 21:12
          +1

          The impression I get is people like you just like pushing in the knife that little bit deeper instead of helping to get it out.

          You'll no doubt respond saying you tried to give some advice, which is true, but you also spend most of your time arguing as to why people/organisations shouldn't help them and that they should just be left to themselves to try and fix it. I could be wrong (if so, sorry!) but I recall you making a similar argument before, the OP ignored it and then got the problem fixed - whereas if they listened to you they would have lost out. I guess my rambling is meant to say - if you're genuinely trying to help then stop jumping to the defense of the "opposing party" unless you know for certain that they cannot and will not do anything to help.

          I remember when I first started using this site people had a genuine desire to try and help people, now it's more of a case of "hahaha, let's all laugh at the moron who made a stupid mistake!".

    • trapper on 20/02/2019 - 13:39
      +1

      Writing $22,000 off as some kind of 'lesson' has to be the most retarded suggestion I've ever seen on here hahaha

      • garetz on 20/02/2019 - 14:41
        -2

        The lesson is be more careful before who you send money too, i know its hard to learn when you are barely able to form a thought coherently but i have hope for you and everyone who sees your message.

    • Illian on 20/02/2019 - 13:41
      +1

      Yeah because if you found $2k on the street you're not required to report it or anything. /s What you're saying is stupid. If the valet gives you the keys to a nicer car than yours you don't get to keep it, moron, and the valet who made the mistake isn't responsible to buy a replacement vehicle for the other owner. If the delivery guy delivers a package to your address mistakenly, you don't get to f****** keep it like it's a christmas present.

    • MITM on 20/02/2019 - 14:48

      Can you tell me how you would write off $22,000 on your taxes ?

      Dear Tax Commissioner - I sent $22,000 to someone random (I promise it's not my friend and I've tried to get it back), here's his account number if you can track him down and tax him. Meantime please reduce my taxable income by $22,000 for my clerical error. Thanks.

      • garetz on 20/02/2019 - 15:19

        I'm assuming it was sent through a business account with the intent of paying for someone, an employee or whatnot, just because the recipient was incorrect, doesnt mean it is still not considered a business expense, any loss incurred for any reason can be deducted as business expense, as long as you can prove the money was spent/lost. This is not a personal transfer, but on behalf of a business. If you sent the money from a personal account, that would be an entirely different proposition.

        • MITM on 20/02/2019 - 17:09

          Yeah, but there's no invoice or even name or address of who received the money (and we're all guessing what it was for). There's nothing to substantiate a claim - a cash transaction that went belly up.
          Sure, he lost his money into thin air, and it may have come from a business account - but we'd all be sending money to Swiss accounts and claim deductions. And as a taxpayer, I'd be horrified a business making clerical mistakes has a reason to mitigate tax liabilities. They should plain go out of business and not be propped up by the tax system.
          Now if he's also since paid $22,000 to the correct person, then he may be able to claim this bill as an expense provided he has the documentation ie Tax Invoice.

          • trapper on 20/02/2019 - 19:04

            @MITM: Don't worry @garetz has no idea what he's talking about. You can not claim a tax deduction for any lost or misplaced cash.

            • HighAndDry on 21/02/2019 - 10:22

              @trapper: Of course you can - you write down the business assets. It'd basically be in the same category as shrinkage or spoilage. You'd have to keep records of it though (reports to bank, police reports, attempts to claim it back) because it would look suspicious as hell to the ATO and they may well want to verify that you're not just arbitrarily decreasing your income to reduce taxes.

              • trapper on 21/02/2019 - 12:44

                @HighAndDry: Shrinkage and spoilage is not your fault, so different category.

                • HighAndDry on 21/02/2019 - 12:55

                  @trapper: True. And those are incurred in the course of generating income whereas this was…. I've no idea. Maybe under "Loss by theft etc"?

                  http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/itaa19…

                  You can deduct a loss in respect of money if:

                  the loss was caused by theft, stealing, embezzlement, larceny, defalcation or misappropriation by your employee

                  Not perfect fit, but arguable? (caveat: I'm (obviously) not a tax accountant…)

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