NBN Wants to Drill Holes All over My Apartment

[Deactivated] on 15/01/2019 - 10:38
Last edited 16/01/2019 - 19:50

I had a chat with the strata manager who told me that NBN need to install new cables to each unit.
Therefore NBN will drill holes from the electricity room (where the street fibre cable ends) to each units.
They will drill through every floor in the building (4 in total) to the floor common area, from there it will be split into each unit front doors, which then will be taken over by the ISPs, whom will drill the wall into the inside of the unit.

I was shocked with so much drilling involved, and how ugly and messy it will look. I can't understand why they can't use the existing Foxtel cables or Telephone (Cat6).

I am campaigning for another alternative, even if it means ditching Foxtel forever (who needs them anyway when you have NBN). I'm not very techy, do you know if it is the only solution?

Edit: The plans from the nbn check address site showed that it is using HFC network.

TLDR: NBN wants to install new cables (hfc) inside the building and therefore need to drill holes through every floor and walls to each unit.

Internet Broadband nbn

Comments

  • myusername on 15/01/2019 - 10:41
    +105

    do you want nbn or not?

      • HighAndDry on 15/01/2019 - 11:19
        +33

        Then you gotta put up with holes. I mean, there are already plenty of holes in your walls, for electricity, telephone, water, gas, ventilation, etc. What's one more?

          • HighAndDry on 15/01/2019 - 12:25
            +10

            @[Deactivated]: Yeah, existing services would be better hidden because the apartment would be designed for them, but I think you'd definitely have holes in your walls, just not where you can see them. I don't know where the new holes are planned to go, but that's a valid consideration - make sure that they will be in less noticeable, and that they'll do enough work to hide the connections.

            At the end of the day, a few holes (even if they end up being unsightly) is a small price to pay for FTTP performance (imo).

              • HighAndDry on 15/01/2019 - 12:29
                +14

                @[Deactivated]: FTTP is optical fibre. While the NBN might not be able to take advantage of its max potential right now, it basically future proofs the property for effectively ever.

                My understanding is that NBN can't ever be more than 1Gbs that Cat6 offers.

                Eh. You realise that the ADSL2+ you're using now runs on bog-standard copper telephone wires that were never even designed to carry a digital signal right. FTTP is physical infrastructure - hard to upgrade if you need to in the future. NBN/etc can probably be upgraded by a lot just in software and different protocols in the future, like we have ADSL2+ now.

                  • HighAndDry on 15/01/2019 - 12:35
                    +5

                    @[Deactivated]: Conceivably? Sure. (It might not be called NBN - just as we changed from 56k dial-up to ADSL).

                      • HighAndDry on 15/01/2019 - 12:53
                        +7

                        @[Deactivated]: NBN can't possibly modify their installation for each property.

                        Not to mention, Foxtel uses coax, and optical > coax too. Quite literally, from a laws-of-physics-basis, nothing beats optical, other than possibly better quality optical.

                        • [Deactivated] on 15/01/2019 - 15:05
                          +6

                          @HighAndDry: Tachyons.

                        • Abaddon on 16/01/2019 - 10:24
                          +3

                          @HighAndDry: From a laws of Physics basis Quantum Entangled particles do. That's what I want connecting me to the EBN (Existence Broadband Network) when it's rolled out.

                        • giftcardinspector on 16/01/2019 - 15:24

                          @HighAndDry: for now….
                          I can't wait to see what works better than fibre, some sort of wireless no doubt.

                          • Magus on 17/01/2019 - 20:36

                            @giftcardinspector: Remember that anything that can be done in a shared wireless medium, can be done down each individual fibre, where you also have more frequencies available.

                            Chinese have actually had some success in Quantum entangled particles for transmission of data. They admit the earliest that there would be any commercial applications derived would be over 20 yrs away.

                            • Chandler on 18/01/2019 - 11:14

                              @Magus:

                              Remember that anything that can be done in a shared wireless medium, can be done down each individual fibre, where you also have more frequencies available.

                              With less interference too - optical fibres are physically isolated.

                              I lose 2.4 GHz wireless connectivity when I run my microwave…

                              4G / 5G / #G is great, but the airwaves can only carry so much. Unless interference/noise filtering gets significantly better, #G will never be better than fibre.

                              Speaking of speeds, I remember seeing something about Japan running something like 8 Tbps over a single fibre. I'm not sure on the quality of the fibre, length, etc; but that's still hella-fast.

                              (after a quick Google, seems my memory is intact: Guiness Book of Records, 2013, Japan, 8 Tbps)

                              • Magus on 18/01/2019 - 19:55

                                @Chandler: Bad news. Your memory may be fading..

                                Japan does hold the record, but is has grown 12.5x Now one Petabit.

                                or

                                12 million times quicker than the fastest NBN connection

                                Japan has multiple multi Tb connections, including trans pacific links. For some reason, they think data use may grow..

                                • Chandler on 21/01/2019 - 07:35

                                  @Magus: But is that down a single fibre?

                                  I did see multiple significantly higher records, buy after a quick glance they were for data multiplexed over several fibres.

                                  I have no doubt the record is higher, I just didn't see anything else clear and substantial.

                                  • Magus on 21/01/2019 - 11:59

                                    @Chandler: Yes, single fibre. Big distance limitation : 50Km.

                                    There is ongoing research into higher QAM (bits of info per phase change), mixing frequencies, and even THz bands.

                                    I think the record for a single bundle is still 255Tbps (7 fibres). This tech is being (been?) commercialised.

                                    For end users, we are stuck with 40G. Even the GPON 320G only delivers this, but the split is much higher, making it cheaper to rollout.

                        • [Deactivated] on 16/01/2019 - 19:41
                          +1

                          @HighAndDry: That may be true but plenty of strata delivered NBN services use Coax fine. Coax is capable of the current speeds and more.

                      • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 15/01/2019 - 19:37
                        +2

                        @[Deactivated]: NBNCo are no longer using existing Telstra HFC for NBN connections. Too many issues.

                        • John Kimble on 15/01/2019 - 19:48

                          @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Since when?

                        • whooah1979 on 15/01/2019 - 20:19
                          +1

                          @Typical16-bitEnjoyer:

                          NBNCo are no longer using existing Telstra HFC for NBN connections.

                          SDU is winding down. Those premises that already have FOXTEL won't get a new HFC lead-in while those that don't may get it.

                        • tranter on 15/01/2019 - 20:50
                          +3

                          @Typical16-bitEnjoyer:

                          NBNCo are no longer using existing Telstra HFC for NBN connections. Too many issues.

                          They are going to use existing Foxtel cabling in my place and we haven't even been connected yet.

                        • BuDWiZe on 17/01/2019 - 14:15
                          +1

                          @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: I'm doing multiple installs for HFC NBN off the Telstra network as we speak and a few new areas are about to turn on so your source of Information is incorrect

                • haemolysis on 15/01/2019 - 18:37

                  @HighAndDry: Kinda pointless to “future proof” in this manner if it wasn’t done from the start. It’s a great concept but it is too late if your apartment is already built. The point of future-proofing is to prevent the need to make major modifications. Installing fibre in this instance, is itself, a major modification. Cat6 would be extremely sufficient as a compromise if it’s already installed.

                  • HighAndDry on 15/01/2019 - 19:03
                    +1

                    @haemolysis: Not really - in this case, the workers, tools, cabling, and wherewithal are all already there.

              • elusive on 15/01/2019 - 22:39
                +4

                @[Deactivated]:

                My understanding is that NBN can't ever be more than 1Gbs that Cat6 offers.

                I don't know where you got that from, but it's incorrect. Oh, they're not offering more now, but the fibre can carry at least 2.5Gbit with currently-used (GPON) technology and upgradeable (presumably without changing the fibre run itself, but only the terminations) to 10Gbit or even 40Gbit.

                Also, fibre minimises losses over longer runs than twisted pair can handle. Granted, Cat 6 can do 10Gbit, but only over ~50m.

                existing telephone cat6 wiring,

                Telephone wiring is not Cat 6. Not even remotely close.

                Telephone wiring is only a single pair, often not even twisted (which is necessary to reduce interference in unshielded cable).

                Gigabit Ethernet running over Cat 5 or 6 uses four twisted pairs.

                There's a reason even VDSL2 only has a theoretical max of 200/100 (which you won't achieve over anything but the shortest runs) while Gigabit Ethernet (1000BASE-T) can easily do 1000/1000, and you can even do 10GbE (10GBASE-T) on Cat 6.

              • LookAtMeow on 16/01/2019 - 16:48
                +1

                @[Deactivated]: While the internal cabling in your property from the MDF may be CAT6 you're only using 1 of the 4 pairs. If you did get FTTB that 1 pair could only provide at most 100/40 via VDSL2 which is the same technology that FTTN uses. Stop saying your CAT6 can get 1Gbit's, you're wrong since the other end at the MDF is only connected to 1 pair of it.

          • Melong on 16/01/2019 - 08:59
            +1

            @[Deactivated]: What they are proposing is standard practice and won’t be the ugly mess you are anticipating once it is finished, you realize that every gpo, pipe, light etc is a hole, not like it will end up like honeycomb

            Civil construction is done is such a way that allows for retro fitting new services in stud walls without the need for exposed conduit

            • Jackson on 16/01/2019 - 21:41
              +1

              @Melong:

              Civil construction is done is such a way that allows for retro fitting new services in stud walls without the need for exposed conduit

              Yes it does, but you arent considering the mofos that people have to deal with here. Visionstream are contractors and their sole goal is to charge as much as they can to NBN and do the absolutely quickest job they can and GTFO. I know because we had the same issue in a place as OP is describing and he is spot on. They didnt want to use the existing foxtel cable because "if a single person complains that dont want their foxtel interrupted between the cable being dedicated to NBN and a new cable being put in, they can hold up the show" and at the same time, we had to argue that a conduit going through the main hallways along the roof is unsightly and lazy, and they agreed to eventually put it through the cavity, but they will still have a short conduit going from the cavity in the celing outside each unit to inside the unit. Bottom line is they CBF doing a proper job, because they would rather charge for a proper job but only do a bodge one

              • gimme on 16/01/2019 - 23:22

                @Jackson: How much do they charge NBN? Seems like you have the figures

      • frewer on 16/01/2019 - 15:43

        I came for LOLs and Im not disappointed in any forms or holes

  • John Kimble on 15/01/2019 - 10:44
    +5

    Isn't FTTP > HFC?

    • [Deactivated] on 15/01/2019 - 10:45
      -4

      I'm not sure what the difference. Is HFC using Foxtel cable?

      • John Kimble on 15/01/2019 - 10:46
        +6

        Yes.

        https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2017/02/giz-explains-every-nbn-te…

        I can only get HFC where I am, and would gladly take FTTP if it was offered.

        • [Deactivated] on 15/01/2019 - 10:50
          -3

          Thanks, I think what they offered is FTTP. But why can't they offer FTTB instead. Sounds like a good tradeoff.

          How big a difference of FTTP and FTTB (with Cat6)?

          Since Cat6 can handle theoretical 1Gbs, much higher than the maximum NBN (100Mbs) and in each unit it will be using router that uses Cat6 anyway.

          • John Kimble on 15/01/2019 - 10:54

            @[Deactivated]:

            But why can't they offer FTTB instead. Sounds like a good tradeoff.

            Don't ask me, ask NBN! ha One would assume they would pick the cheapest/quickest/easiest connection for each location…but we all know it's been a clusterfck implementation to date…maybe they have a little spinny wheel (like wheel of fortune) or magic 8 ball that helps them decide…

          • mezje on 15/01/2019 - 18:07
            +2

            @[Deactivated]: Are you sure they are offering FTTP in an apartment building? 4 floors x ?? apartments seems like a crazy amount of work when FTTB would be very simple.

            FTTB could still require drilling. I guess FTTP is technically better as you have fiber to YOU, FTTB is pretty much just a fiber link to the building and then ethernet up to each apt - which is current practice for any newly built apt building.

            • [Deactivated] on 15/01/2019 - 19:28

              @mezje: See my edit above,its hfc. Which is even more confusing now

            • Jackson on 16/01/2019 - 21:55

              @mezje: Because the contractor benefits from a bigger job. More hours and a larger profit from the greater amount of work

          • DangerNoodle on 15/01/2019 - 18:32

            @[Deactivated]: The NBN does technically offer 1000/400, most resellers just wont offer it because it costs them a lot to buy enough CVCs to allow the end consumer to go anywhere near that sort of speed.

            The other issue is which variant of cat6 is being used. There is a distance vs speed limitation using cat6 cables, so theoretically, the less cat6 cable that is used, the more likely you are to hit full speed. cat6 allows for up to 10 gigabits at up to 50m and 1gigabit at 100m, cat6e allows for 10gigabits at up to 100m, not that the nbn will let us come close to those speeds anytime soon. Wont cause issues if you're close to the connectivity point for FTTC, but those on the far end from the curb may experience speed deterioration.

          • nikey2k27 on 15/01/2019 - 18:47

            @[Deactivated]: FTTB is my old unit block had we had phone cable from there speed was ok cable was less then 10 years old but with time that only going to get worst.

          • Magus on 17/01/2019 - 21:08

            @[Deactivated]: FTTB is not a good tradeoff.

            1. It currently delivers about 1/5 what FTTP delivers.
            2. It is more expensive than FTTP, once you take into account operating costs.
            3. There is no real upgrade path. Yes, the node can be dumped, and a G.Fast node installed, and then GPON fiber (hopefully there are spares) lit for this unit, and new modems installed. This can take you from 100Mbps to 500Mbps. To get double that with FTTP, requires nothing.

            Then there are the multitude of services that cannot be delivered on a FTTB network. IoT channels, bespoke services.

            FTTN/B is really false economy. FTTC is slightly better, but only because it has an upgrade path. It results in a poor (higher maintenance) topology network, and some of the cost of running it is passed on to the user.

            • Baghern on 18/01/2019 - 10:09

              @Magus: My mate is on TPG TFFB, consistent 100mbps, during peak

  • whooah1979 on 15/01/2019 - 11:03
    +27

    fibre

    It sounds like NBN is providing optic fibre to each unit. Many customers would be more than happy to let them drill a few holes to get this.

    • myusername on 15/01/2019 - 11:03
      +20

      drill me up baby

    • peteru on 15/01/2019 - 13:56
      +28

      If they were bringing fibre-optic connection to my apartment, I'd let them use a sledge hammer to get it done faster!

  • John on 15/01/2019 - 11:09
    +2

    If there's already an existing CAT6 network running they should be able to utilise that. Looks like strata manager decided not to utilise an existing network line for whatever reason.

    • HighAndDry on 15/01/2019 - 11:20
      +6

      Optical > CAT6, at least in terms of futureproofing.

    • Jackson on 16/01/2019 - 21:56

      Strata has been convinced by the contractor and potentially other reps to do this

  • nocure on 15/01/2019 - 11:17
    +34

    16mm conduit into the common area and one hole into your unit… Think your title is a little dramatic.

    • whooah1979 on 15/01/2019 - 11:22
      +2

      20mm ID.

      • nocure on 15/01/2019 - 11:26

        Fair enough… Seems an overkill for FO cable. Think of the money turncoat could have saved using 16mm.

        • whooah1979 on 15/01/2019 - 11:42
          +3

          It's Telstra. They like to be different.

          • ozjuz on 16/01/2019 - 11:47
            +1

            @whooah1979: It's a standard within the industry, both Telstra and NBN utilise 20mm conduits to service

  • JimmyF on 15/01/2019 - 11:26
    +7

    I was shocked with so much drilling involved

    How else did you want them to get NEW cables to your apartment?

  • Daabido on 15/01/2019 - 11:27
    +4

    They will make it look pretty tidy, usually. You won't even notice it after a while.

    Hopefully it won't look like this;
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-16/nbn-unions-blame-cont…

    • John Kimble on 15/01/2019 - 11:34

      Wow…

    • whooah1979 on 15/01/2019 - 11:48

      The rg6 should've been installed in conduit. A conduit would be safer and look nicer.

      • [Deactivated] on 15/01/2019 - 12:15

        They did say something about PVC ducting. Is that what you are talking about there?

    • HighAndDry on 15/01/2019 - 12:34
      +1

      Unions say contractors working for the National Broadband Network are taking shortcuts on in-home installations, blaming low pay and pressure on the workers to complete jobs quickly.

      Does this read as ridiculous to anyone else? Why not blame the contractor?

      • Save 50 Cent on 15/01/2019 - 17:23
        +2

        Because the problem is bigger and more widespread. This particular contractor was just over the top with this install but yeah, he isn't the only one taking shortcuts.

  • [Deactivated] on 15/01/2019 - 11:27
    +1

    Its pretty hard to know what is necessary and not without seeing your building.

    NBN installers are notorious for doing it as quickly and cheaply as possible.

    Your only option would be to get someone independent to have a look, but even then I'm not sure how much luck you would have getting NBN to do it differently.

    • [Deactivated] on 15/01/2019 - 12:24
      -2

      If the strata committee agrees, I'm sure I can make NBN do what we want, given what we are proposing is cheaper and easier.

  • steven6 on 15/01/2019 - 11:32
    +19

    Should have bought Opal Tower where they have future proofed the building by adding heaps of extra holes for cables

    • HighAndDry on 15/01/2019 - 12:54

      They've even future-proofed to the next building that'll be on the site by making the current one ready to be knocked down with a breeze….

  • bobbified on 15/01/2019 - 12:05
    +3

    Bit of a dramatic title… I pictured Swiss cheese for a second!

  • pantsparty on 15/01/2019 - 12:10
    +1

    Just how much damage will be done to your apartment and who is responsible for fixing it? If it is just a few small holes then that is very easy for you to patch up yourself - you can buy a kit from Bunnings like this:

    https://www.bunnings.com.au/poly-wall-repair-kit_p1710160

    If the damage was going to be minimal I would happily accept it and fix the holes myself if it meant I was getting FTTP. I currently live in an apartment with FTTP and it is great - when I was on the 100mb/s plan I was getting speeds of around 92 mb/s most of the day.

    If somebody else is going to fix the damage then even better!

    • [Deactivated] on 15/01/2019 - 12:19
      -1

      I don't see the benefit of FTTP compared to FTTB.

      • pantsparty on 15/01/2019 - 12:49

        You get fibre all the way to your apartment instead of the last leg in copper wires - FTTP has a better chance of giving you a good speed. I agree that FTTB also has a decent change - especially if your apartment building is pretty new and therefore the copper lines are pretty new. Upto you really!

      • pantsparty on 15/01/2019 - 12:51

        FYI if you type your address in here the website should tell you what type of connection they have planned for you

        https://www.nbnco.com.au/connect-home-or-business/check-your…

      • macca9123 on 15/01/2019 - 13:17
        +1

        FTTP can be easily upgraded in the future by simply changing the transceivers on either end of the fibre. Fibre can generally support a much bigger bandwidth than is provisioned for. So if, in the future, 100Mb or 1Gb wasn't enough then upgrading the fibre could be as simple as sending a new modem out to the customer to plug into the fibre. You wouldn't need to pull more fibre and drill more holes.

        FTTB on the other hand is bottlenecked by the copper running from the apartment to the basement (where the fibre is). This can give good results now but the bandwidth of copper rapidly falls off with distance (shouldn't be an issue in an apartment), interference (from other cables, motors and electrical sources) and other factors (water ingress, rodents, cable diameter, shielding, etc). Fibre is basically immune to these factors, except perhaps for rodents. Also who is to say what the quality of the copper is like in your unit block and what it could actually sustain today? It might get you 100Mb today but perhaps not 1Gb in the future.

        Granted, it is all a cost-benefit tradeoff. FTTB is cheaper to install but it will be more expensive to upgrade to FTTP in the future than to do it right the first time.

        I only wish I had an option for FTTP…

        • [Deactivated] on 15/01/2019 - 13:20

          The strata manager showed me the plan it says HFC.
          I think (again I'm not a techy), what it is saying is that they will use HFC to the building, and fibre optic to the unit.

          • BartholemewH on 16/01/2019 - 10:33

            @[Deactivated]: This sounds arse about.

          • Magus on 17/01/2019 - 21:17

            @[Deactivated]: The HFC - Hybred Fibre Coaxial

            IT is Coax in your house. Not reusable for anything. There may also have to be an amplifier at some place in the building.

            No fibre (reusable) in the building.

            Although nbn is spending billions on rolling out DOCSIS 3.1, the aim is to make it possible to connect more user per segment, not offer faster speeds.

            With HFC new installs, FTTP is cheaper after a bit over ONE year.

      • ratoloko on 15/01/2019 - 13:22
        -2

        FTTP and FTTB are basically the same, P means premise and B is building, there is no difference hahaha
        It is normally used as a term for FTTH (fiber-to-the-home) and FTTB (fiber-to-the-building, -business, or -basement)
        I have TPG FTTB 90Mbps and holy shit, download Xbox, PS4 games or watching in 4K was never that easy.

        • dazweeja on 15/01/2019 - 16:14
          +2

          In NBN speak, FTTB means they will run fibre optic cable to a multi-dwelling building and then use whatever existing network they have in the building to get it to each individual dwelling, rather than recabling every dwelling. FTTP usually means running fibre optic cable directly to a single dwelling.

          • ratoloko on 15/01/2019 - 16:57

            @dazweeja: Yep, you are right. They have this light different, and it seems like FTTP is much more expensive and often used for houses as the optic fibre line will be run from the nearest available fibre node, to your premise.
            While FTTB is usually used in a shared address such as business building and apartment. It stops at the building node and from there it goes to the unities. I am just not so sure about "use whatever existing network they have in the building to get it to each individual dwelling"

            I didn't know this "difference". Cool :)

            • dazweeja on 15/01/2019 - 17:36

              @ratoloko: If it's a modern building and it's been built with Cat 6 cabling throughout, NBN Co can use that with the permission of the body corp. Most commonly though, it's just the existing copper lines that are used. I think the problem for the OP is that even though there's Foxtel cabling in the building which might be suitable for FTTB, my understanding is this cabling is the property of Foxtel.

        • Magus on 17/01/2019 - 21:31

          FTTP and FTTB are VERY different.

          FTTP offers 4x1000Mbps connections, plus 2x 150kbps for voice. Services on each port can be customized.

          In the original config, bespoke services were to be offered (alarm, medical etc) and RFoG could be added in some sites (TV signal)

          FTTB offers 1x up to 100Mbps connection, internet access only.

          FTTB nodes are expensive to install and power, but the cables in the building can (often) be reused.

          FTTP 'nodes' are very cheap, but new cable in the building of usually needed.

          FTTP is also far more reliable and cheaper to operate (see Verizon's published data. FTTP 70% less than FTTN, 50% less than FTTB).

          As time goes on, those on FTTN/B/C and HFC, will be like those stuck on ADSL1.

      • pformag on 15/01/2019 - 18:30

        you won't now, but it 5 years time, you will

  • bargainhunter87 on 15/01/2019 - 12:32
    +7

    I'd get drilled for NBN.

  • Starlight8 on 15/01/2019 - 12:39
    +4

    I got home one day and found an NBN boxed drilled into my house.. i didnt even know they had authority to do it.

  • serpserpserp on 15/01/2019 - 12:56

    So OP they want to drill 1 hole to your apartment. Is that correct? Hardly holes all over your apartment…

    • [Deactivated] on 15/01/2019 - 13:24

      ISP will drill 1 hole, NBN will drill two holes outside the unit in the common area for each floor.

      • bargainhunter87 on 15/01/2019 - 14:19
        +15

        Cry me a river. You want NBN or not? If you have other suggestions of how it can be done without drilling - suggest it on the day. If not, just accept the holes.

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