Unless you live in a particularly tech-y apartment, own a house, work somewhere that will let you charge, or rent a house that happens to have a garage with power, you have pretty much zero capacity to charge your vehicle with any semblance of regularity. I don't have any figures, but I reckon that's a significant fraction of Australian car users gone in those categories.
Would love to hear your thoughts.
Inline 6 biturbo.
Same thing they do in Paris and London and every other city that has predominately apartment living. You park on the street and then charge it up the same way you get petrol. Fast charges only take 40 minutes or so. I reckon there will also be points around the city in normal car parks to charge up. Your body corporate might even invest in a few chargers for the building.
Most electric vehicle ranges are 200-300+kms that's enough to get most people to and from work.
the same way you get petrol
only take 40 minutes
Sorry wut?
Have a good yarn with the indian guy at 711 while you fill er up
fill er up
With what, electrons?
@Scrooge McDuck: I've heard that all the electrons are actually the same when they come into port, just each company uses different additives.
I heard that if you use a gold-plated charging cable, the electrons have more charge.
That's a myth, silver is better.
Just to be very clear, I mean in a similar way.
It's not going to be that different is all I'm saying. In my case I can work remotely while my car charges. Other people can get a coffee, read emails on their phone etc.
Other people can get a coffee
Infrastructure for that rolling out in Melbourne.
'Everyone has time to sit down and have a coffee': Fitzroy cafe bans takeaway coffees
Fast charges only take 40 minutes or so.
40min is fast? LOL.
Enough for a nice lesisurely lunch. You just need to hangs habits from refueling in 5min at the servo to refueling at a place where you will be for a few hours.
If your car has a 300km range and you're commuting around the city suburbs as most of these cars are intended, then you might only recharge weekly, maybe even less. 40 minutes is something you can work around by getting coffee or doing your shopping.
I love all the pro EV comments. We'll make it work - we'll arrange to have lunch at the servo. We don't mind 40 minutes every day to refuel.
It's a joke to think that they'll get everyone to think like that in the timeframe they're saying.
EVs will have a limited market until they have a dramatic increase in technology.
There’s no reason the electric charging needs to be done at a servo, it actually makes more sense to have them in parking areas. You’ll see shopping centres and other places where you’re likely to park for an extended time roll out charging stations (you can actually see this happening today). It’ll benefit Westfield etc if people can have a fully charged car in the time it takes them to do their shopping. Work car parks will roll them out as perks for their employees. etc.
In the US based offices for the company I work for, they already have free chargers for electrical vehicles, so if you drive one you don’t have to pay for your “fuel” at all.
You also don’t have to recharge every day. Modern Teslas for example have a range of almost 500km.
I love combustion engines as much as the next guy, but electric cars are already a workable alternative, and things are only improving.
@Praeto: An interesting factor here (a bit like the shopping bags issue) is that most environmental analysis of changing "energy regimes" neglects to assess the impact of these ancillary changes necessary to enable the transformation.
E.g. what is the carbon footprint of creating/converting hundreds of millions of charging stations around the world? All those materials used had a footprint in their mining, transport, manufacture, transport, retailing, transport, installation.. and then maintenance.. (then transport recycling > disposal).
In the same manner that replacing an old, less fuel efficient vehicle with a newer fuel efficient one can be a false environmental economy so too are the effects felt here.
Services like an automated Uber, vehicle sharing services and public transport will do the bulk of the heavy environmental lifting.
There DOES NOT EXIST enough easily accessible rare earth materials to deliver an individualised number of vehicles and attendant services as the world currently enjoys today from its "oil" economy.
Less people are going to own cars, cars as a service means more "corporate hubs/installed infrastructure for charging", for most the problem will be out of sight out of mind.. your cars arrives with sufficient charge for your needs.
There DOES NOT EXIST enough easily accessible rare earth materials to deliver an individualised number of vehicles and attendant services as the world currently enjoys today from its "oil" economy.
Citation please?
Less people are going to own cars, cars as a service means more "corporate hubs/installed infrastructure for charging"
Agreed, this will likely happen to some extent. I don't see privately owned vehicles disappearing completely though.
@Praeto: Yes, to the extent that the frequency and duration I want to visit this shopping centre syncs with when car requires charging, that would be great… however, I suspect that by the time that infrastructure is in place, it will be getting torn out because car parks will be replaced by shops and driverless car drop off zones.
@slickMick It will be a change in the way we do things, but once you are used to it will not be a major inconvenience. The only time you’d be having lunch at the servo for 40mins is if you are on an extenddd trip where you’ve used up all the charge from the last time you parked and need to recharge to keep going.
@Euphemistic: I don't know whether you'd seriously be okay with forced 40 minute breaks on a road trip, but that is never going to work for me.
Diesel would have to be awfully rare and/ or expensive to force that upon me.
@SlickMick: When we're talking about the use case for the average Australian, you're talking about a commute of around 16km and an average yearly mileage of around 14,000km. If you have a Tesla with a 475k range, you're potentially only having to recharge it every two weeks. If you work somewhere that has a charger, you're set.. If you shop somewhere that has a charger, you're good. If you can stop for quick charges at stations etc during that week to keep it topped off.. You're good.
I get it. I own a 4wd and a 600hp ute. I don't want to see ICE cars go away either (and honestly I don't think will ever completely go away) . But pretending that edge cases like long distance road trips are an everyday occurrence and that people are going to have to spend an hour a day charging isn't really much of an argument. There are undoubtedly use cases where the ICE is still a better option, but for the vast majority of people an electric car would actually be a completely reasonable (and preferable) choice. I do actually look forward to a future with driverless cars where I can sleep all the way to work, and take out my other cars on weekends.. :)
@Praeto: I'm not a car guy, I'm an electronics guy and would way prefer an electric car than ICE.
But I don't see there being an EV that can replace my ICE in my lifetime, so I bought one more.
I don't see me owning 2 cars: 1 for the average commute and a 2nd car for road trips.
If you look at the financials of your commute scenario, it won't be cost-effective to own a car when there is an alternative.
I think more commuters will use a car service than buy a current-technology EV. I know I would if I was in that category.
We don't mind 40 minutes every day to refuel.
I prefer the approach the Chevy Volt has. Electric vehicle you charge at night, but on longer trips the generator in the boot kicks in and you run off that instead. Fill its tank up at the servo and you're back on the road in a few minutes.
Looking at the Volt specs they say about 50 miles on battery (ok for daily use) and about 400 miles on fuel. I think most people would be happy with that.
@D C: Yep, at the moment a car with an ICE is the way to go, and an electric engine would be a great additional feature if it's affordable.
car with an ICE is the way to go, and an electric engine would be a great additional feature
Maybe the opposite will be better, electric vehicle with the ICE generator as an optional extra. The Volt solved the problem of range anxiety; some people would be happy with electric only, others prefer to have the longer range.
Obviously electric is the future, like all trends it slowly creeps up on you.
20-30 years ago no-one rode bicycles or motorbikes; this was good as in the city I could park my motorbike wherever I wanted to. I realised bicycle were becoming popular when I went into the car park of the bank I worked for and there were bicycles everywhere. This didn't used to happen, it was a bit of an eye-opener.
Motorcycles became more popular as well, mostly due to the perceived lower running costs (commuting) so now there motorcycle-only parking areas, but its' still hard to find somewhere to park.
Personally I think electric bikes are the go.
I love all the pro EV comments. We'll make it work - we'll arrange to have lunch at the servo. We don't mind 40 minutes every day to refuel.
Unless you're a truck driver, don't pretend you drive 200-300km daily.
If EVs demanded 40 minutes out of every day, it'll be obviously unacceptable. But you're exaggerating charge frequency and assuming charging point = servo, to make a bad point. But 40 minutes per week or fortnight? Absolutely workable.
I've already seen charging stations along the Great Ocean Road. It's not a quantum leap, the tech is already here. Once EVs become affordably mainstream, there will be an explosion of supporting infrastructure. Once we see charging points at car parks and shopping centres, then normal people can easily work it into their lives.
But 40 minutes per week or fortnight?
It still doesn't beat the 7min every two weeks or so at the petrol station. Or the convenience of filling up a full tank at a moments notice.
Taking six hours to recharge is ridiculous.
https://youtu.be/oT0KS1JaSrk?t=77
@whooah1979: But if you can plug in in 20sec at home and at work and not even go to the servo for 7min every two weeks? For your seven minutes you can plug/unplug 21 times and that doesn’t include the additional time driving to the servo.
Who cares if it takes 6hrs to charge if you are at work, or asleep.
Who cares if it takes 6hrs to charge if you are at work, or asleep.
Takes a while for new paradigms to take hold. They'll have to process the end of the oil change next: "but but what am I supposed to pour along the fence to kill all the weeds? EV is stupid!"
@D C: different argument. If you only need a range that an overnight charge sufficies, you won't need a car.
At the moment, maybe the Uber service isn't prompt enough. But that industry is going to be transformed too, and I can't see it not making short-range private EVs redundant.
If you only need a range that an overnight charge sufficies,
Overnight charge will suffice in most cases, or you charge it at work if you're one of the garage-less folk. It'll get sorted out.
It's like phones. In the olden days a full charge would last a weeks as we couldn't browse OzBargain all day, but now we've all trained ourselves to plug the phone in to charge at night, and during the day whenever an opportunity arises.
Cars will be the same.
The idea of driving to the servo to charge it up is mostly dinosaur-think. The superchargers won't go away, but probably only used by trucks, taxis, Uber, couriers etc.
now we've all trained ourselves to plug the phone in to charge at night
Having to charge every night is a thing of the past. We now use smartphones that have the capacity to provide up to 720 to 800 hours standby.
provide uptown one week of standby.
Huh, so if I never use it the battery will last longer?
Fascinating concept.
Talk time is 40 to 50 hours.
On what?
eg: https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/09/13/apples-iphone-xr-…
Oddly enough if you use it the battery will start to go flat. I plug my phone in at night regardless of the actual battery level. EVs will be the same; drive home, plug in the car, go inside.
We changed from ios to android
Um, ok, sure, whatever.
So what model smartphone have you go that has 40-50 hours of talk time? It must be easily double that of the lastest iPhone who are getting all excited about another 90 minutes worth.
@D C: One team member cracked their screen on the first day of work while another a few weeks later. We now use these for work. Good for both work and play.
https://youtu.be/28SYFTtgT18?t=27
yeah but what is the solution for my Brisbane - Adelaide run?
Plane, train, walk, bicycle, donkey, stay home. You're the 1 in in 1,000,000 exception, why should I care?
@whooah1979: True. But no one claimed that EVs are perfect, because the argument isn't whether EVs are as convenient as petrol (they're not), but whether they're convenient enough. And for the average consumer, they absolutely can be. Once battery prices drop and EVs approach $30-40k, normal people will buy, not just the rich Tesla crowd, and the infrastructure will come with it. So does a prolonged 'refueling' time outweigh all the obvious benefits of an EV? For most people? Yes.
6 hours to recharge is ridiculous, unless overnight but it's also mischaracterising the technology. But Tesla's supercharger already does 0-80% on 40 minutes, or full in 75. This already exists. And most families can easily work around an hourly charge per week.
@SydStrand: The 40 minutes wasn't mine btw, and was later specified weekly not daily.
But that's irrelevant - not even once in 10 years would the average person be willing to wait for their battery to charge.
I don't even wait for the kettle to boil, I make boiling the jug fit in with my schedule.
Does anyone use the car service lounges to sit around and wait for their car to be serviced? I'm pretty sure most are like me: we schedule the car service for when it's convenient for ourselves, and pick it up when we're done.
If you only need a daily commute and you can charge at home or at work, that's fine. But probably not economical.
If I still need an ICE for my long trips (did anyone say daily?), does that sit out on the road so the EV gets the garage to charge? Not happening at my home.
The 40 minutes wasn't mine btw, and was later specified weekly not daily.
OP specified it as 40 minutes for 200-300km, you chose to mischaracterise it as a daily charge.
But that's irrelevant - not even once in 10 years would the average person be willing to wait for their battery to charge.
Bull, it's irrelevant. If I needed to wait 40 minutes a day, then I would never consider an EV. But 40 minutes a week is an entirety different equation, because everyone has a weekly chore or errand that can be coincided with a charge, whether it's groceries, brunch, or going to the gym.
If I still need an ICE for my long trips (did anyone say daily?), does that sit out on the road so the EV gets the garage to charge? Not happening at my home.
Firstly, why do you think charge = garage? A charger is basically a hose and they work perfectly fine outdoors. Secondly, you're shifting goalposts. OP specified apartment living in high density cities. No one is claiming that EVs will perfectly replace ICEs. If you live in the country or regularly drive cross country, then an EV isn't for you. But if you're like most Aussies who live in cities and drive <15,000km a year, then it begins to make sense.
And let's not pretend that the average family is unreasonably burdened by waiting 40 minutes on their once or twice a year road trip, when you're taking a break every 300km anyway. But sure, extreme use cases and pedantry invalidate EVs 👌.
But that's irrelevant - not even once in 10 years would the average person be willing to wait for their battery to charge.
Why do you keep making this ridiculous point? No one is expecting anyone to sit in their car while it charges for 40 - 75 minutes. The charging stations will be placed at locations where people are already spending time away from their car. Your local cinemas will have them in the parking area, the shopping centre, the local electronics store, areas with lots of restaurants etc. Instead of stopping at petrol stations weekly, you'll simply plug in your car when you get out to go see the latest Marvel movie. The US already does this, I can charge my EV at work, at Frys, at the mall etc.
This model already works for a bunch of other stuff. I frequently get my car washed, wheels rotated etc while Im in my local shopping centre. I just pull up, throw them the keys and when Im finished shopping it's done.
@Praeto: The only example I'm using is my long distance runs, where with an ICE I stop when I want for as long as I want.
I'm not trying to talk you out of buying an EV if it works for you. I'm just saying it isn't a solution for me, and I believe it will be a short-lived solution for short-trip commute use cases because a better solution is at the doorstep.
I agree that charging times are still an issue, but overnight charging is what people should be doing most of the time. Charging times do cause issues if you're driving a long way though of course.
40minutes!
I know some shopping centre have spots to charge
Miranda in Sydney does
A good topic OP
Thanks mate!
agree
At work or shopping centre perhaps. Doubt most inner city people have cars and normally rent out car space.
Ride share cater for this said problem.
Car ownership is significantly lower in cities yes, but it's nowhere near zero. The independence of owning a car is massive in this country because it's a huge country with low population and basic public transport outside major cities. If you want to do local travel outside the metropolitan area, you're driving.
Get your autonomous vehicle to drop you off at home then it goes to a charging station then you summon your vehicle back home when charged
I assume it will also clean the streets like my Xiaomi Robovac
it gets phased out over a considerable period, obviously. Particularly as the technology reduces is price, and the number of EVs increase.
There are some houses today that dont have sufficient power points, but as you upgrade the house you put them in for convenience.
My current house didnt have fibre, but magically it was installed with the nbn rollout
You got FTTH?
FTTP yep
With a range of 400km (it’s coming and available in high end models) you should only need to charge once a week. So that would mean you’ll only need to find a charging station once a week. This means changing your refueling habits from a quick full at a servo to a planned several hour charge.
The other side of it is that as much as we will need to charge our electric cars they will also be used to provide power to the grid as storage units so it will be more cost effective to install charge/storage points. Your car will learn that a full charge is required on Monday morning (for example) but after you park on Sunday arvo it charges until sundown and then provides power to the grid until 4am when it recharges back to full ready for 8am commute. There are studies being done to monitor who’s gridnusage is changing with solar, wind generation and now electric cars.
Now that's interesting! Very cool. Any links? I'd love to read more.
I just saw one somewhere recently I don’t have any links unfortunately. The spark providers arent completely sticking their heads in the sand, but preparing for the future grid demand.
Glad someone in this country isn't sticking their head in the sand…
google/youtube keywods smart grid ev solar charging
This and other similar ideas have been discussed on The Driven podcast. The first 4 or 5 eps discuss a lot of the vision and issues, def worth listening to based on your questions.
IIRC the Alan Finkel episode mentions EV charging as a potential value add for providers of car spaces (which partially addresses your original question).
Is that 400km highway range, or city range? Carly different things.
That’s not really the point. The average car does 15000km per year, 288 per week. Even if the city range is 75% of the probable 400km range you’ll still have a weekly charge. I’d imagine it would relate to charge on Thursday night ready for weekend and Sunday ready for the week.
It sort of is, was a genuine question as I haven't really been following ev battery improvements. To a lot of people it's all completely pointless if you can't use it to go away somewhere, even if that's just once a year. This is where hydrogen would be better.
@brendanm: A 400km range with a 40min charge coworker for a long trip. I just did a long trip and stopping for lunch after 4hrs is certainly reasonable. The whole stop revive survive thing actually is a good idea anyway. Travelling more than 800km in a day wouldn’t be normal. That’s highway travel, so the best range from your batteries.
Your point about reduced range in city driving doesn’t make any sense because a car that is used in an a average way is unlikely to use more than one charge per day in the city. Not saying it doesn’t happen, just that it is not the norm.
Sure, there will be outliers that a 400km range will not suit, but for most cars it will be plenty for the vast majority of the time - assuming that a 40min fast charge can be found ‘anywhere’ and a slow charge (overnight) can be relatively easily accessed (every couple of days).
I fill my fuel tank every 3 weeks or so lately, that’s about 600km so I coulld quite easily live with an electric car 95% of the time. Rest of the time there is hire cars or other fuel sources.
@brendanm: I can't drive my current car to NZ. I don't even bother driving to Melbourne, although I suppose I could.
It's much easier to fly there and rent a car…
If you really want a road trip, you could rent a car with a longer range, or plug in to recharge at numerous locations along the way.
im guessing people would just need to leave an hour for work every morning, go to a charging station, sit in car and wait for it to quick charge, rub one out whatever to pass the time and then sit in traffic to get to work again
:)
any other suggestions for the remaining 38 mins wait?
Not a huge drama. Its a bit of a problem now for someone like you, because you can't install your own power point and the building manager isn't motivated to put one in, but technologically speaking there's no shortage of solutions. You could have power points installed beside parking spaces fairly easily. The problem then becomes how to monitor and assign charges for the high degree of usage, and that wouldn't be a problem. You could have a separate electrical meter just for the car, either a consumer type that you reimburse the building for or a utility meter for the electrical supplier. Or you could work out an average use model and pay based on that.
Even street parking isn't a challenge. You could do it quite simply initially by creating secure power points on support poles where there was a parking spot adjacent. You could run a setup similar to oBike, where you use a phone to remotely unlock a box that contained the cord. Then the usage would get charged to your account.
Alternatively, the standard solution has been to swap batteries. Obviously the challenges are greater with something the size of a car, but its doable. You could have some sort of crazy cartridge type system, where you wheel massive battery packs from your house where they've been charging overnight, to your car, where you slide out the old and pop in the fresh one. Not super practical when its 8.55 and your running late for work, but it could work, after a little tweaking lol.
So yeah, no shortage of technical solutions. The thing standing in the way is getting people to care about something that doesn't effect them right now
…creating secure power points on support poles where there was a parking spot adjacent… you use a phone to remotely unlock a box that contained the cord. Then the usage would get charged to your account.
Not going to happen imo. That land is controlled by the council and inner-city councils have zero interest in helping residents park on the street long-term. Most city areas don't have enough space for parking as it is.
Then there's the issue of equity. The infrastructure costs from such a roll-out would be enormous. Other ratepayers won't pay for you to have a charging station outside your flat. Who should pay? Who does the space belong to? It's a real can of worms.
Some (short term) council car parks near shopping areas already have EV chargers… Presumably the council can justify it as bringing in extra customers to all surrounding businesses.
It's only really an issue if you're talking today's battery and charging technology, fast forward 10-20 years and we'll probably have EV's which offer the same range as a petrol vehicle and charge in the time it takes to fill a petrol tank.
fast forward 10-20 years and we'll probably have EV's which offer the same range as a petrol vehicle and charge in the time it takes to fill a petrol tank.
It might not take that long.
The infrastructure probably would, though!
I would have thought that most people in Australia do have a garage or car port to charge an electric car.
You'd be absolutely wrong then. Much of the population lives in rentals with either no garage or no powered garage, or so parking only. Let alone all those (like me) who live in an apartment. That's at least half the population gone right there for my reckoning.
I still say mostcars have a dedicated space on a property each night. Certainly inner city is different, but anything built in the last 40 years in a new suburb would have a car space or two.
Yes but inner city living is supposed to almost remove the need for a car. The infrastructure will catch up easily. Your building owner will want to install PowerPoint for ev charging as a feature. EVs don't need charging often anyway, you'll find so.ewhere once a week to charge just like the servo. It will be 50+ years before petrol is phased out and by then Eva will have unlimited range with kinetic recharging batteries. Also personal cars will be a thing of the past as they become so available.
As usual early adopters will pay in both money and teething pains, I can't imagine all the cokpa he's that will (profanity) around with proprietary charging equipment and standards.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YuTpPr3Uv0&feature=youtu.be
We'll convert when they have an SUV EV.
Outlander PHEV? Tesla Model X?
Will there be drive offs, without paying, from charge up stations?
Will people steal by "syphoning" electricity from your car?
i saw in an episode of top gear, the charging stations work with a pre-paid card system, kind of like a myki card. you can only fill up if your card has a balance.
Electric cars? Lol, what will they think of next?
When landlords, workplaces and body corporates managing apartment complexes realise they can make an income stream from selling tenants/workers/residents power to charge their vehicles - how long do you think it will take them to install suitable charging points? Its the joy of living in a free market economy!
power to charge their vehicles
These types of energy sources may at that time be regulated at either by the federal or state government.
carports with solar panels are a thing too
I'm pretty sure that I read an article a while ago about China building a highway out of special solar panels that had a lane for Evs to drive in that wirelessly charged the vehicles. Kinda like those phone chargers that you place your phone on top of I guess.It also put the excess electricity into the grid.
Our governments struggle to build standard roads, how long do you think it would take to complete a feasibility study into building a solar powered highway in a country that enjoys many, many days of sunshine?
China is very good at building things that the rest of world may only dream of. Just have a look at what they're doing in the South China Sea.
I have a question, how long do people think it will be until petrol/diesel cars are off the road? 10 years? More?
I just watched this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUC6lsLr04I and there were some really good ideas about this stuff.
In terms of my opinion? I reckon there will be petrol/diesel cars on the road for a long time, there's lots of use cases where they will be required. Some bloke on a 500,000 acre property isn't driving a Tesla around it or to the shops. That's the extreme of course but you can be sure that there are a lot of in betweens.
But… I think there would be probably most gone in about 15 years?
maybe from 8cyl to v6 turbo