[SOLVED] Was I Harrassed at Work?

maxyzee on 12/11/2018 - 23:18
Last edited 13/11/2018 - 16:49 by 1 other user

Hey guys.

I want to get some thoughts about an situation at work today. I usually go for a run at the work gym for half an hour at lunch and shower afterwards.

Anyway today after my run I walked into the change rooms and headed into a shower. As I stepped in the shower cubical one of the other guys I see often was finishing changing and up came to my block and asked if I’d seen a watch. I looked and said no and thought nothing of it. When I finished showering he knocked on the shower again demanding I return the watch and I thought what is he on about? I said no I don’t have your watch.

He then asked if I could spread my towel that I had around my waste and I thought alright fine look nothing there, he seemed really agitated. He also checked my undies and nothing there. He was starting to get worked up trying to find his watch. Apparently it was a Samsung smart watch that cost $600. Anyway I did my best to be polite and not start anything. I suggested to him go ask reception if anything’s been handed in.

I came away from that feeling really uncomfortable cos later I thought he was accusing me of theft and being quite aggressive about it. I’m just wondering if anyone else had a similar experience in the workplace. Should I do anything or say anything to HR?

It got me a bit rattled in the afternoon cos I couldn’t stop thinking about it maybe should have stood up for myself more or just went to HR then and there. Anyway just wondering what ozbargainers thoughts are.

TLDR: Got accused of theft at work change rooms. Other guy was rude about it. I obliged embarrassingly. Felt somewhat uncomfortable about it. Should I do anything or just move on as one of those things.

Update: the other guy found his watch. Turns out his workmate was playing a joke on him. He came to me and apologised profusely for his behaviour. I did say to him that things could have went very differently and he acknowledged that.

Education & Work

closed Comments

    • pegaxs on 12/11/2018 - 23:27
      -2

      TL;DR:

      Workmate misplaced watch, subsequently lost it or had it stolen. Accused OP and demanded to go through OP's stuff. OP let them. Watch owner still not happy. OP wants to play newly found victim card. Should they?

      • maxyzee on 12/11/2018 - 23:42
        +1

        Newly played Victim card? I guess that’s a different way to think about it. I was biting my tongue the whole time. There’s no excuse for aggressive behaviour in the workplace, even if it was Rolex that was lost/stolen. I mean if it was like the public gym there’s nothing to it but because this is in the workplace each employee is upheld to codes of conduct for that organisation.

          • maxyzee on 13/11/2018 - 01:08

            @pegaxs: I did think about it at the time but I thought do I want this to escalate to be a real incident in the workplace. As I mentioned if it was a public space not at work then yeah the guy can go F off. Anyway no probably won’t take it to HR not really big enough incident to be worth it. I’ll probably confront him about it next time I see him And just mention that he can’t go round acting like you said a petulant child th minute something goes wrong.

          • Ryanek on 13/11/2018 - 08:09
            +1

            @pegaxs: Wow, there are so many things wrong with your reply I don't know where to start.

        • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 08:36
          +3

          He asked and "you thought alright". End of.

          • pegaxs on 13/11/2018 - 11:22
            +3

            @HighAndDry: Exactly. It’s not like angry watch guy ripped the towel off, ransacked OP’s stuff and pushed them around. OP agreed. And now OP feels like they have hurt feelings and they want to take it up with HR.

            “I’ll teach them not to raise their voice at me!”

            • John Kimble on 13/11/2018 - 11:33
              +2

              @pegaxs: I argue that could have happened if he said no to the request, given that twice before, the OP already said they hadn't seen it/didn't have it, but AWG didn't accept the response.

              The reason I believe it is a real possibility is because

              1) No person in their right mind would go around their workplace, accusing near strangers of theft and request to search them/for them to disrobe.

              2) AWG already worked himself up into a state and in his mind found the culprit, so challenging this may have triggered such a response.

              Complying/submitting to the (inappropriate) request, potentially prevented this from happening.

              But again, no one knows, it's all speculation.

              • pegaxs on 13/11/2018 - 11:44

                @John Kimble: 1) this is exactly what someone would do. If you are in a washroom, your watch goes missing and there is only one other person in there, everyone’s first suspect would be the only other person in there. But yes, I totally agree, requesting the other person to disrobe and empty off the belongings out is not the way it’s done. But letting them go through your stuff and agreeing to disrobe in front of them is as much OP’s fault as it is AWG.

                2) again, AWG was only going off based on the information at hand. Who are we to say that OP didn’t steal it? We don’t have AWG’s information. While I agree that AWG handled it poorly, OP’s compliance at the time to remove doubt about the watch was consensual. OP could have said no at the time, or asked AWG to get security to check. But after the fact, OP feels all hurt at giving consent and now, after they have had time to stew on it, they want to withdraw that consent and see if their victim card is good to play.

                • try2bhelpful on 13/11/2018 - 11:53
                  +2

                  @pegaxs: The OP has done nothing wrong here. He said yes to stop things escalating. The AWG should NEVER have come up to him and asked him to remove his towel and should NEVER have rummaged through his underwear. In what universe is that acceptable behaviour?

                  Funnily enough I don't think HR would see this in the same light as you - and would thank him for reporting this issue in case it escalates further in the future. If the guy really did lose his watch then he can explain his actions to them and, if they think it is fair enough then, the OP sounds like he would have no issue with accepting this ruling. If I was HR I wouldn't want AWG on my payroll.

                  • pegaxs on 13/11/2018 - 12:10
                    -1

                    @try2bhelpful: Omg, do you ever read people’s responses? Or you just want to jump on that outrage neg train?

                    Please, show me where I said what AWG did was ok. Please, tell me where I said it was ok for AWG to ask OP to remove their towel. Tell me where I said AWG was ok to go through OP’s stuff?

                    And I said, take it to HR. Did you not see that part? Or did you just want to jump on the outrage train?

                    This is why I usually ignore your posts. John makes some interesting points. You, on the other hand are just here Kama whoring and being outraged without reading. “Oh, some negs. I’ll get me some of that outrage action.”

                    And I don’t care how many imaginary negative internet points I collect, it just stands as proof that the butt hurt is real. People don’t like straight shooters. So, I wear it as a badge of pride knowing I’ve offended a few little precious flowers.

                    Anyway, you’re going on my block list. You seldom have anything of worth to say anyway.

                  • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 12:11
                    -1

                    @try2bhelpful:

                    He said yes to stop things escalating.

                    Do you seriously not see how stupid this sounds?

                    Nothing was escalating, the guy asked. It's only in OP's mind that it would've escalated.

              • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 13:41

                @John Kimble:

                But again, no one knows, it's all speculation.

                Thank you for this. Because yes, it's exactly speculation and we shouldn't be reporting people to HR because "speculation".

              • cameldownunder on 13/11/2018 - 16:04

                @John Kimble: If I had a $600 watch, and could not find my $600 watch, I would behave exactly like that guy, well, maybe not ask to remove towel.

                • John Kimble on 13/11/2018 - 16:11

                  @cameldownunder: Yes, exactly. Who (essentially) strip searches workmates? Someone not thinking clearly.

              • maxyzee on 13/11/2018 - 16:18

                @John Kimble: This!

  • mbck on 13/11/2018 - 00:00
    +2

    You didn't steal it, he lost a watch, no need to pile more misery. He's in a different headspace. It didn't sound too bad tbh.

    Im sure everyone has been rattled before and pissed off someone in the process

  • Scrooge McDuck on 13/11/2018 - 00:02
    +17

    The guy sounds like a pervert. Those requests aren't reasonable at all!

    Are you OK? Do you have people to talk to about it?

    I'd definitely talk to HR after you've processed it, formulated a plan and are ready to share it with them. Your workplace isn't safe with a creep on the loose.

    • maxyzee on 13/11/2018 - 00:49
      +1

      Na he was definitely focussing in the watch haha. Anyway it was the rudeness of it all. I reckon I’ll probably confront him about it when I see him in he gym next and let him know that his behaviour wasn’t on even if was stressed out about lost valuable.

      • Flanders on 13/11/2018 - 02:40
        +16

        Na he was definitely focussing in the watch haha.

        It doesn't matter what he was focusing on. He demandes with menace that you romove towel, and was going through your undies. HR need to know about this grossly inappropriate misconduct .
        You don't act like that anywhere, let alone in the workplace.

        • Nato271 on 13/11/2018 - 10:56
          +7

          This. In all seriousness, this is a very inappropriate interaction. He has no right to go through your things or demand that you disrobe, regardless of his reasoning. You should draft a file note and discuss with HR.

          • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 11:59
            -3

            @Nato271: I'm hoping this is just extended sarcasm that I'm missing.

            • Flanders on 13/11/2018 - 12:09
              +2

              @HighAndDry:

              I'm hoping this is just extended sarcasm that I'm missing.

              Humanity.. Human decency .. If you don't see why this is wrong, then you must be missing these.

              • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 12:10

                @Flanders: I'm missing oversensitivity.

                • try2bhelpful on 13/11/2018 - 12:11
                  +2

                  @HighAndDry: oh, no, you are are incredibly oversensitive. You think any discussion like this is infringing on the rights of the perpetrator.

                  • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 12:12
                    -1

                    @try2bhelpful: You really can't read. I don't think anyone's rights are involved here. I think going to HR is akin to crying like a baby.

                    • try2bhelpful on 13/11/2018 - 12:18
                      +5

                      @HighAndDry: You can think what you like, but again and again it has been shown that this sort of behaviour can escalate to other people unless it is nipped in the bud. Even if this guy was only looking for his watch then his behaviour was still completely out of line, workplace or not. The OP should never have been in that position in the first place. It is up to the OP, but I think HR should be involved. It is not normal behaviour, when you think your watch has been stolen, to ask someone to take of their towel and to rummage through their underwear. If this guy is doing this sort of thing you have to wonder how he reacts in other work situations when he loses his temper.

                      • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 12:21
                        +1

                        @try2bhelpful: Apparently I only think what you think I do:

                        You think any discussion like this is infringing on the rights of the perpetrator.

                        And will you stop with the hypotheticals?

                        If this guy is doing this sort of thing you have to wonder how he reacts in other work situations when he loses his temper.

                        Maybe he'll ask for people to do something, and people can say no too.

            • Nato271 on 13/11/2018 - 12:59

              @HighAndDry: Definitely not, hence the "In all seriousness" part. If you think coercing someone into taking their clothes off and rummaging around in their property constitutes appropriate and professional conduct then I don't really know what to say to you. Workplaces have Codes of Conduct for a reason and I would expect an adult to handle a situation like a lost watch with a little more professionalism and self control than was described in OP's post.

              • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 13:12
                +1

                @Nato271:

                If you think coercing someone

                People keep saying this. I'm not seeing any coercion here - the guy asked, OP obliged. What coercion?

                • Nato271 on 13/11/2018 - 13:19

                  @HighAndDry: "He knocked on the shower again demanding", "He then asked if I could spread my towel", "He seemed really agitated", "He was starting to get worked up", "Quite aggressive about it". Does it help if we isolate the key phrases? There is significantly more nuance and context here than "the guy asked" as you posit. You do seem to be arguing with a lot of people on the subject of consent though…

                  • Nato271 on 13/11/2018 - 13:21

                    @Nato271: In fact, just read those phrases and tell me straight out that it doesn't sound sketchy…

                    • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 13:26

                      @Nato271:

                      "He then asked if I could spread my towel"

                      Asking.

                      "He seemed really agitated"

                      Guy probably was agitated. You're going to report a guy to HR for being worked up he lost his watch? Com'on now. Might as well report OP to HR for having thin skin and feeling uncomfortable over this, if we're reporting people for feelings.

                      Doesn't seem sketchy to me, seems like a guy who lost an expensive watch, thought OP took it, and asked for OP to drop the towel to check OP hadn't taken it. OP didn't have to oblige but he did.

                      • Nato271 on 13/11/2018 - 13:37
                        +2

                        @HighAndDry: Ok, I don't think we're going to agree on this. To be clear: I wouldn't report a guy to HR for being worked up because he lost a watch. I would report a guy to HR for going beyond that point and asking to check my junk. There is a definite case of coercion (or "pressure" if you prefer) on OP to get his kit off, which I think you are critically missing and what puts this over the line. I would consider this behaviour unreasonable. You've made it clear that you wouldn't. This disagreement proves the case for why you involve HR.

                        • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 13:37

                          @Nato271:

                          I would report a guy to HR for going beyond that point and asking to check my junk.

                          He didn't ask to check OP's junk. He asked to check OP's towel. And so now you're reporting someone to HR for being worked up and asking to check towels for his watch.

                          There is a definite case of coercion (or "pressure" if you prefer) on OP to get his kit off

                          Pressure is not coercion. That's a legal term of art that… well to be blunt, please don't throw around unless you actually know what you're doing.

                          And nothing the other guy did was even pressure. He ASKED. OP was free to say no. OP didn't. That's on OP.

                          • Nato271 on 13/11/2018 - 13:49
                            +1

                            @HighAndDry: And what pray-tell did he think was under the towel exactly? You're performing some pretty impressive mental gymnastics to defend lost watch guy. Also, I'm speaking in colloquialisms on an internet forum - this isn't a legal conversation. Which I would know how to handle myself in anyway ;-) Like I said, we're probably not going to agree on the unreasonableness of OPs situation. OP has since stated that watch guy apologised profusely for his behaviour and acknowledged that things could have gone differently, implying that he himself knew that it was wrong.

                            • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 13:52

                              @Nato271:

                              And what pray-tell did he think was under the towel exactly?

                              I'm not sure you've been following the conversation, but I think his watch.

                              this isn't a legal conversation.

                              Unfortunately when it involves OP reporting someone for workplace sexual harassment, yeah it kind of is a legal conversation.

                              As to the update, aren't we all glad this didn't get escalated to HR?

                              • Nato271 on 13/11/2018 - 14:06

                                @HighAndDry: Geez. Ok, here we go.

                                I didn't advocate a report for sexual harassment. I advised that OP should make a file note (which is good practice before raising any incident with HR) and DISCUSS with HR. The file note is predominantly for OP to document the situation in a logical and factual manner. This can often help people clarify the situation and determine an appropriate response. There is nothing wrong with booking a DISCUSSION with HR. They will tell you pretty quickly whether something is in contravention of workplace protections or Code of Conduct. If deemed to be nothing, it would go no further. I don't know if you work in an office, but you should know that going to HR does not automatically constitute a complaint. It is my personal opinion that watch guy's conduct was unreasonable and warranted a discussion with HR. That shouldn't be a problem.

                                Also, the towel was around OPs waist at the time…that's all I should have to say about that.

                                • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 14:12
                                  -1

                                  @Nato271:

                                  I didn't advocate a report for sexual harassment. I advised that OP should make a file note (which is good practice before raising any incident with HR) and DISCUSS with HR.

                                  The two are the one and the same. There is no HR policy that says "take a report on possible sexual harassment but do nothing about it".

                                  you should know that going to HR does not automatically constitute a complaint.

                                  Not when it comes to potential sexual harassment. That's VERY AUTOMATICALLY a complaint.

                                  Also, the towel was around OPs waist at the time…that's all I should have to say about that.

                                  Yes, and OP still could've just said no and not dropped it. Or, and this is now getting stupid, OP could've turned around and dropped it. Saying no would've been easier.

        • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 12:35

          OP has said he doesn't want to go to HR. Why are you not respecting OP's opinions now, if OP's feelings are all important before?

          • try2bhelpful on 13/11/2018 - 13:30
            +3

            @HighAndDry: We are not saying OP has to go to HR we are saying that, in our opinon, he should go to HR because we think what the guy was doing was completely inappropriate - especially in a work situation. Rather than abusing the OP for being "spineless" for saying "yes" and decrying people who go to HR for being "cry babies" - we recognise that there is some behaviour that is just completely inappropriate, it is not just "mean", and that is what the real issue is; rather than "consent" in a pressure situation. The OP has said that he consented to stop the issue escalating.

            Frankly my concern is very much with the OP. Whatever, choices he makes I back him up. Having doubts about "consent" in a pressure situation is quite acceptable - particularly when he should never have been put in that position in the first place. I will not call the OP names if he does not decide to go to HR; I fully understand his reasoning for not doing so.

            • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 13:51
              +2

              @try2bhelpful:

              We are not saying OP has to go to HR

              Could've fooled me. Let me quote some people here:

              HR need to know about this grossly inappropriate misconduct .

              Seems pretty forceful with the "need" - I mean, you all know OP has no spine, how could you possibly think this wouldn't coerce him into reporting it to HR?

              You should draft a file note and discuss with HR.

              Again, not even asking OP to file with HR, but straight up stating that OP should do it.

              OP should talk this over with someone he trusts and then, probably, take this to HR and discuss it with them.

              This was you. Again, not even asking - just bluntly stating what OP should or shouldn't do. You know they're mentally frail, why are you putting this pressure on them? They cave even when you ask, if you're just telling them, that's basically putting them at gunpoint!

              If any of them had, and a pattern of behaviour had been established, then a lot of needless pain could have been avoided.

              Basically saying if someone else gets hurt, it's OP's fault! How much more coercive could this be? It's emotional blackmail at this point.

              I agreem, it is important to go to HR

              And this is you agreeing with this kind of emotional blackmail! Tsk tsk, didn't think you'd do this sort of thing T2bh, not after you've been telling us how easily OP is pressured into doing stuff.

              Enough yet?

              Just to OP: In case it's not clear - I don't think there's anything wrong with you - I think there are many serious things wrong with the people encouraging you to go to the HR with this kind of nonsense.

    • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 08:47
      -3

      I think you whooshed everyone including OP and Flanders. (Though I'm hoping Flanders is also just having some fun)

    • cameldownunder on 13/11/2018 - 16:06

      @Scrooge LOL

  • [Deactivated] on 13/11/2018 - 00:31
    +9

    He never lost his watch. He just wanted to see you naked. That is definitely harassment.

    • pegaxs on 13/11/2018 - 00:51
      +3

      I really want lost watch guy to get to HR first and demand a cavity search on everyone…

      • maxyzee on 13/11/2018 - 01:01

        Haha yeah he was getting worked up. “No I know it was some c@#% that f@#%$*g stole it”.

  • spackbace on 13/11/2018 - 00:58
    +10

    He then asked if I could spread my towel that I had around my waste and I thought alright fine look

    jazz music starts playing

    • [Deactivated] on 13/11/2018 - 01:07
      +1

      waste

      I think this is code for junk

      waste waist

      • pegaxs on 13/11/2018 - 02:15
        -2

        Maybe they shit on the floor and was using the towel to cover the “waste”.

        Had to empty the prison wallet to get the watch in there…

      • [Deactivated] on 13/11/2018 - 11:46
        +1

        Maybe he means the waste trap. ;)

        Not possible with you.

    • anonymous01 on 13/11/2018 - 16:05

      Hehe… He wanted to "Watch" something.. that rhymes with Clock…

  • John Kimble on 13/11/2018 - 07:04
    +2

    Yes, he had no right to ask you to open your towel and view your genitals to check if you had stashed his watch under there.

    Having said that, if you refused, he may have taken that a proof you did steal it and escalated the situation further. Kind of a lose-lose situation with someone so worked up.

    • Godric on 13/11/2018 - 07:31
      +4

      Saying "I don't have your watch" doesn't really constitute as evidence for theft though

      • John Kimble on 13/11/2018 - 07:58

        That's what I mean, if he had it in his mind that the OP stole it, there is nothing I can think of that the OP could have said to make him believe the OP hadn't stolen the watch, thus convincing him opening the OP's towel would be unnecessary.

        Any reason the OP would have given, rational or not would probably have triggered the guy to further believe the OP had stolen it.

    • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 08:38
      +3

      But the guy asked and OP complied. Still not enough? Christ - this is the rabbit hole that 'consent' goes down.

      • maxyzee on 13/11/2018 - 08:49

        In the end I didn’t really mind it was more the aggressiveness of his tone. If he was more polite and asked in a nicer way I don’t think I would have batted an eyelid.

        • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 08:50
          +3

          You're claiming harassment because he asked in a mean tone? I'm not a doctor but I'm gonna prescribe a spoonful of cement.

          • D6C1 on 13/11/2018 - 11:38

            @HighAndDry: No. He is claiming harassment because he had to show his junk to the guy.

            • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 11:39
              +1

              @D6C1: But he didn't have to. The guy asked, OP willingly obliged.

              • D6C1 on 13/11/2018 - 11:40

                @HighAndDry:

                OP willingly obliged.

                I almost read that as willy

                • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 11:41

                  @D6C1: Ha! Well OP also did willy'ly oblige….

                  No, but read his comment, he says:

                  In the end I didn’t really mind it was more the aggressiveness of his tone. If he was more polite and asked in a nicer way I don’t think I would have batted an eyelid.

                  OP didn't mind showing his junk, OP minded the "aggressiveness of his tone". I mean I understand, if someone wanted to see my junk I'd want them to be gentle about it too, but that's not HR-report-worthy.

                  • D6C1 on 13/11/2018 - 11:43
                    +1

                    @HighAndDry: Its a hard situation to be in unfortunately. Due to the aggressiveness in the tone, that's enough to frighten OP to oblige and avoid the situation from escalating any further.. Maybe OP would have had a beating or worse. Rape. You never know and it's one word against another.

                    • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 12:01
                      -2

                      @D6C1:

                      Due to the aggressiveness in the tone, that's enough to frighten OP to oblige

                      Loud noises are "enough to frighten" some people. That doesn't warrant a HR report, that's solved with, again, spoonful of cement.

                      Maybe OP would have had a beating or worse. Rape. You never know and it's one word against another.

                      Oh com'on. Seriously? And maybe by disagreeing with you you're going to track me down, kill me, dismember me, and bury me in the bush somewhere. Christ, is "reasonableness" a part of anyone's vocabulary here?

          • lonewolf on 13/11/2018 - 11:43
            +1

            @HighAndDry: There was no enthusiastic YES!! and each step should have followed with a question…Is this ok? and waiting for another Enthusiastic YES! before going forward…

            Yes its such a joke these days.

            • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 12:02
              +1

              @lonewolf: And then, it would be "due to the aggressiveness of the tone, OP felt like he had to give an enthusiastic yes, sign a contract in blood and do that all in front of a Justice of the Peace while naked."

              That was how utterly terrified OP was - can't you see the injustice?

      • John Kimble on 13/11/2018 - 08:50
        +2

        I see your point, but if you were cornered in a shower cubicle wearing just a towel, someone was accusing you of stealing a watch and asking you to open your towel, some might just comply to avoid a scene or escalation.

        Or they just comply out of shock/not being able to think straight in such a situation.

        Or because they are being confronted and their first instinct is to comply.

        Still doesn't mean the request was reasonable. The OP has had time to process what happened and now realises perhaps he should have reacted differently or take some action now.

        • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 08:51
          +1

          It was still a request. You can't say "yes" and after the fact claim 'blah blah blah it wasn't actually a yes'. That's idiotic. The other person isn't responsible for OP having no spine.

          • John Kimble on 13/11/2018 - 08:55

            @HighAndDry: Yes, but it is his responsibility to behave in a reasonable/professional manner…which usually means not accusing people of stealing and asking people to derobe…

            • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 08:56

              @John Kimble: No. Just no. He asked, OP agreed and complied. What, he asked in 'too mean a tone'? This is exactly what OP is saying:

              Other guy was rude about it. I obliged embarrassingly.

              And that's harassment? Get the hell outta here.

              • John Kimble on 13/11/2018 - 09:00

                @HighAndDry:

                one of the other guys I see often was finishing changing and up came to my block and asked if I’d seen a watch. I looked and said no and thought nothing of it. When I finished showering he knocked on the shower again demanding I return the watch and I thought what is he on about? I said no I don’t have your watch.

                He then asked if I could spread my towel that I had around my waste and I thought alright fine look nothing there, he seemed really agitated. He also checked my undies and nothing there. He was starting to get worked up trying to find his watch.

                3 interactions and the OP said he was aggressive

                • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 09:01
                  +2

                  @John Kimble: "asked", "demanding OP return", "asked".

                  Oh no, he sounded aggressive. Poor OP.

                  • John Kimble on 13/11/2018 - 09:09

                    @HighAndDry: We'll have to agree to disagree.

                    I'm more on the OP's side, the first "infraction" is the person accusing the OP of theft and asking the OP to derobe. Just not reasonable or acceptable behaviour to ask an almost complete stranger.

                    The second "infraction" that you seem to be hung up on is the "complying" or (apparent) "spineless" behaviour of the OP. It doesn't make the first "infraction" right.

                    • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 09:15
                      +2

                      @John Kimble: Asking for consent cannot possibly be an infraction unless it's flagrantly inappropriate. Asking OP to remove the towel with no sexual connotation to look for a missing item may not be the best, but only if they persisted after OP said no would it be an issue.

                      OP DIDN'T SAY NO.

                      • pegaxs on 13/11/2018 - 12:18
                        +1

                        @HighAndDry:

                        OP DIDNT SAY NO.

                        OP seems to have withdrawn consent the day after when the remorse has set in. Sounds like something else that is very topical at the moment.

                        “It was yes at the time, but now, a few days later, it feels uncomfortable and I want to withdraw my consent…”

              • [Deactivated] on 13/11/2018 - 15:44

                @HighAndDry: Someone checking your undies certainly is (harassment). The accuser needs to apologise for the incorrect accusation at the very least.

      • try2bhelpful on 13/11/2018 - 09:07
        +2

        Consent is based on full knowledge. The OP was showing he hadn’t stolen a watch. I’m sure he wouldn’t taken off the towel if he thought he was giving the other guy sexual gratification. He is faced by an aggressive guy, when he is on his own and semi clothed, who accused him of taking his watch. The OP did was the path of least resistance; the idea the guy may escalated the violence may have influenced his decision. This guy may well have lost the watch but this is classic bullying harassment behaviour. Isolate people, go in aggressively and demand what you want - don’t give people time to think about what is happening. The fact that the OP is questioning this now shows to me this wasn’t consent based on fully assessing the situation.

        Maybe you need to think about what you constitute as consent.

        • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 09:18

          OP can't blame someone else for literally being slow and complying as a result.

          That there may have been escalation is purely OP's assumption. That OP was 'isolated' wasn't the other person's doing nor is there anything suggesting they cared. And he asked and OP said yes.

          If OP said yes because they don't have a spine, that's on them.

          Actually I'm unfairly maligning OP here - only you're suggesting OP said yes because they're too weak. By OP's own words:

          In the end I didn’t really mind it was more the aggressiveness of his tone. If he was more polite and asked in a nicer way I don’t think I would have batted an eyelid.

          They would've said yes anyway, and only didn't like the tone.

          So maybe you should stop presuming weakness and fragility and making victims where there are none.

          • try2bhelpful on 13/11/2018 - 09:46
            +1

            @HighAndDry: The OP is now questioning what happened, he is wondering if he has become a victim of harassment. I'm sure if he thought nothing more of it then he wouldn't have posted this on the forum. I think he was a victim of harassment because, even if the guy had lost his watch, his behaviour was over the top and unacceptable. Do you think asking people to take off their towels and then rummage through their underpants is "acceptable" behaviour?

            By saying a victim is vulnerable I'm not saying they are weak - what an emotive, belittling term you are using there - I'm sure if he was fully dressed he would not have agreed to strip naked for this guy. The fact that you are using abusive, victim blaming, language against the OP shows you are a bully as well.
            "If OP said yes because they don't have a spine, that's on them."
            I can understand why you are siding with the guy who "says" he lost his watch.

            The trouble is that you don't accept that people are victims, when they are. Not only does this mean people are victimised but the perpetrators can do it with impunity because the victim is "misunderstanding" the situation or they have put themselves into this situation. May I request that you explain your views on consent to women before they agree to go out with you, then they can be fully informed.

            • lonewolf on 13/11/2018 - 11:47
              +2

              @try2bhelpful: No the trouble is people after the fact coming back and saying things that werent really the issue at the time. At least if he had declined to remove the towel then the other guy went on about it and / or pulled the towel off himself then yes. But if someone is asked and they do it , they dont get to come back afterwards and say its different. Because that is consent. Beisdes i think the OP is more annoyed by the tone and being accused of theft rather than this consent rubbish on the towel incident.

              • try2bhelpful on 13/11/2018 - 11:54

                @lonewolf: The real issue is he shouldn't have been asked in the first place - you think it is OK to ask people to take off their towels and then rummage through their underwear because you "think" they stole your watch?

                • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 13:27

                  @try2bhelpful: Oh please.

                  The real issue is he shouldn't have been asked in the first place

                  First it's "you need to ask consent". And now it's "you can't ask consent to begin with"? That doesn't seem just the tiny bit ridiculous to you?

                  YOU are the reason false rape accusations are a thing. A girl will say yes to sex, feel iffy about it later, and then you'll chime in saying that "Yes doesn't actually mean yes". And then the girl will be labelled as a false rape accuser, and you'll still be blaming OTHERS and not yourself for making a mountain out of a mole-hill.

                  I'm not even joking anymore, you're everything that's wrong with the current social hysteria around consent.

                  • try2bhelpful on 13/11/2018 - 13:59

                    @HighAndDry: And your postings is everything that is wrong with the current postition on consent. Previously you have posted that a woman doesn't even need to be specifically asked if she wants to have sex for "consent" to be implied.

                    People should know when what they are doing is wrong and the question of consent should not enter into it. This guy was being abusive, he approached the OP when he was in the shower, he asked him to take off his towel and rummaged through his underwear. The fact that he did any of this raises red flags all over the place. This behaviour is inappropriate - particuarly in a work situation. This is why I ask the OP to take this to HR to ensure this behaviour has been flagged.

                    I'm not joking either, your attitudes are deeply disturbing. As a women, if I was dating you and you started saying things like this I would be looking for the next exit and hoping I hadn't given you my phone number. Particularly if you used the expression "Angry sex". Please, please tell women about your views before they end up dating you.

                    You keep ducking my question. "Do you think it is OK to ask people to take off their towels and then rummage through their underwear because you "think" they stole your watch?"

                    So you don't think there are situations where being asked to do something is inappropriated, and it just comes back to the individual to say "no". You think it would be fine, in the middle of a meeting, to ask your boss to take off all his clothes so you can rummage through his underwear and that he would be a crybaby if he went to HR to discuss this with them. Please do this at your next staff meeting and come back and tell us how this went.

                    So if a woman says "yes" because she fears she will be beaten otherwise you would consider this as "consent". Funnily enough the circumstances do come into whether "yes" means "yes". There are a lot of situations where people are considered incapable of providing consent. The OP said he said "yes" to avoid the situation escalating. I think he has been put in an awful position by this guy and, yes, I would consider this a grey area on consent.

                    Even if the guy has lost his watch - what he should've done in this situation is step back and think logically about what he was intending to do. This is not a guy that shows he can keep his temper and think logically. He's not an employee I would like in my company - hence the discussions with HR.

                    • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 14:09

                      @try2bhelpful:

                      Previously you have posted that a woman doesn't even need to be specifically asked if she wants to have sex for "consent" to be implied.

                      Of course, that's what "implied" means. If she's actively participating for example, that is consent. What, you think women can't be proactive when it comes to sex? What century are you living in?

                      People should know when what they are doing is wrong and the question of consent should not enter into it.

                      Yes, and when they're not sure, they ask.

                      This is why I ask the OP to take this to HR to ensure this behaviour has been flagged.

                      First time you've "asked" OP to go to HR, you've been pretty insistently telling him he has to so far. Seems a bit coercive to me.

                      I'm not joking either

                      Don't worry, I'm fairly sure you're not capable of it so I wouldn't make that mistake.

                      As a women, if I was dating you

                      Don't worry, also not a mistake I'd make.

                      Particularly if you used the expression "Angry sex".

                      Just confirming you don't know what the word "joke" means, carry on.

                      "Do you think it is OK to ask people to take off their towels and then rummage through their underwear because you "think" they stole your watch?"

                      I've said "yes" to this about a dozen times. If they person says "no" and you persist, THEN it's inappropriate. But asking? Sure.

                      it just comes back to the individual to say "no".

                      I'm a big believer in individual empowerment, and not assume everyone is a victim.

                      You think it would be fine, in the middle of a meeting

                      Was OP in a meeting?

                      So if a woman says "yes" because she fears she will be beaten

                      If a guy was standing over her with fist raised, that's already assault, (which is a crime) - so no issue of whether it's "workplace harassment" (which is civil) would even arise. How many more stupid questions are you planning on asking?

                      There are a lot of situations where people are considered incapable of providing consent.

                      Yes, if they're very drunk, if they've been drugged, if they're in real and reasonable fear for their safety. This wasn't one of these situations.

                      and, yes, I would consider this a grey area on consent.

                      It's a good thing no one cares what you consider.

                      He's not an employee I would like in my company

                      Again, a good thing he (nor anyone else) works for you.

                      • [Deactivated] on 13/11/2018 - 14:14
                        +1

                        @HighAndDry:

                        that's what "implied" means. If she's actively participating for example, that is consent

                        you obviously haven't been anywhere near a university lately. you'll soon need to have a woman sign an official consent form in front of a witness before starting sex, and every 30 seconds during

                        • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 14:17
                          +1

                          @[Deactivated]: And no doubt try2bhelpful will still say the poor thing was coerced/pressured/asked to sign the consent forms…………. something like:

                          she only signed them, and only appeared eager and happy and enjoying it to not escalate things!

                        • John Kimble on 13/11/2018 - 14:23
                          +1

                          @[Deactivated]: Ummm…so only one consent form, two if she's lucky?

                          • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 14:26

                            @John Kimble: The paperwork for an orgy would very quickly get out of hand…

                          • try2bhelpful on 13/11/2018 - 14:39

                            @John Kimble: Personally, I think any woman who is dating nowdays should start the recording on her iwatch and keep it going for the entire evening - then review it in the morning. She can then see what happened fell within the confines of consent or not. No papers signed just a complete record of the evening; ready to be tied up with a big red bow for evidence - if necessary. Otherwise, just wipe the tape ready for the next round. Funnily enough, if guys were being recorded I think they would find their voices to ensure that the woman is fully onboard for the whole evening.

                            • John Kimble on 13/11/2018 - 14:41

                              @try2bhelpful: Yeah, but then you've got the issue of the legality of recording someone without consent, which is different in each state.

                              Goes both ways, Gable Tostee got off murder charges because he recorded.

                        • try2bhelpful on 13/11/2018 - 14:32
                          -1

                          @[Deactivated]: As per usual, completely over the top hyperbole.

                          Funnily enough I think a woman should actually consent in a fully informed manner before someone is allowed to enter her body; I also feel the same for gay guys. I also think that people should discuss boundaries before they have sex and make sure everyone is onboard with what is going to happen. Just because a women consents to kissing does not mean she consents to intercourse, because she consents to vaginal intercourse does not mean she consents to anal intercourse, etc. This is where the "rape consent" problem comes from - where the two parties are not communicating their expectations and boundaries beforehand and then things happen that the woman doesn't want them to. At any time either party has the right to decide they don't want this to continue.

                          If you aren't sure if you are getting consent then actually ask the questions, discuss what you are doing and if the partner isn't giving you a whole hearted agreement then backoff and determine something that works for both of you.

                          • pegaxs on 13/11/2018 - 14:47
                            +1

                            @try2bhelpful:

                            completely over the top hyperbole.

                            From the king/queen of hyperbole him/her/xem/xerself…

                            Do you ever come down from your high horse?

  • Quantumcat on 13/11/2018 - 07:13

    Harassment is continued, repeated unwanted behaviour. This wasn't nice, but it wasn't technically harassment.

    • try2bhelpful on 13/11/2018 - 07:45
      +4

      https://www.humanrightscommission.vic.gov.au/the-workplace/s…

      Nope, a single incident is enough, under Victorian law

      • Quantumcat on 13/11/2018 - 09:01

        Oh ok, you learn something new every day

        • try2bhelpful on 13/11/2018 - 09:26
          +1

          No problem, I was pretty sure they had stopped it being "repeatedly" to remove egregious one off behaviour; but I had to look it up to be sure anyway. Might as well provide the link whilst I'm there :)

          • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 09:35

            @try2bhelpful: Maybe you should've read it then.

            Sexual harassment is not consensual interaction

            "OP obliging" still not being consensual is a load of crock.

            • try2bhelpful on 13/11/2018 - 09:49

              @HighAndDry: Again, take this to HR and see what the law makes of it. If it turns out the guy was doing it for sexual gratification, rather than "looking for a watch" then this would probably not consitute consent. However, I would love to see this in court to see what the ruling is.

              • HighAndDry on 13/11/2018 - 11:44

                @try2bhelpful:

                take this to HR and see what the law makes of it. If it turns out the guy was doing it for sexual gratification

                How the hell is HR going to be able to tell? They're not magically mind-readers. Plus - if the guy was angry, that seems like he actually lost something. I've had angry sex, but I don't think this was it.

                However, I would love to see this in court to see what the ruling is.

                This would never see the light of day in a court! It's not a civil or criminal legal matter, it's a HR matter AT THE ABSOLUTE MAX and right now it's not even that.

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