Hi guys - appealing to TRADESMEN of all levels here…
Just wondering. How do you deal with excessively relentless & brutal hagglers?
Have you had customers push you to the point of becoming angry & walk away?
Do you favour better payers and cut corners (or worse) with the truly soul-less haggler?
Interesting.
That's dumb.
so elaborate my good man! No need for insults! :O)
What's to elaborate?
If I ask a for a quote, why would he not turn up?
There's more job than tradies.
As a tradie if you'd have 2 calls where the other caller is counting pennies and the other sounds like willing to pay for the service, which one you'd choose?
I've had so many no shows that I've lost count. In my case it's not about the money, just my suburb as it's a bit of a drive to come where I am.
Of course there is more jobs than tradies, that goes without saying, if there was less jobs than tradies, you would be getting 1 job in your entire life time.
However even if there are 100 jobs per tradie per year, not all tradies are equally good at their job. A good tradie knows their value, a bad tradie will take any job, so even if the client is haggling hard, you know if its worth your time or not, and based on that info you either move along to other more profitable jobs or take the job as requested.
If you cut corners then you will get a bad reputation, and that will cost you future jobs.
@garetz: When he says more jobs than tradies he probably means more jobs than tradies at any particular time, so customers are desperate to get a tradie to take their job and the tradie can pick and choose what jobs they'll take
Not a tradie myself but hopefully I can offer perspective from a consumer point of view.
I believe you just be firm on your price and show them the benefits of your business or service. I’d assume everyone will ask for a better price/discount if paying cash which id assume you’d factor in.
As a consumer myself I’d do my research to make sure I’m not compromising on quality of the job(within reason) as price isn’t always a reflection of quality. I’d gladly pay more for someone who turns up on time, doesn’t seem dodgy/sleezy and can explain the job properly. I would also consider myself a DIYER so I try and make sure I understand the complexity of the job and toss up it I can save myself some $$$ by doing it myself vs get them to do things. E.g I had to get my builder to install something and he charged me $75 to do it, to do it myself it would have cost $50. So not really worth me doing it.
I was a bit concerned that you might create a deflection from the topic but found your points made to be relative, fair and interesting.
Very much hoping some tradies' will chime in though!
Thank you for contributing sshaz'!
Cash means no receipt (and the tradie doesn't have to pay tax on it), not paid by cash.
Sounds like someone else is clueless as well!
Interesting and I guess this makes sense.
I also asked for an installation certificate and didn't get one. Is that because of the same reason?
I spent over ten years in the building industry as a self-employed, licensed tradesman.
I never refused credit card or cheques, and neither did any of the other tradesmen on jobs where we worked together.
A tradie that only accepts cash is a huge worry.
1. Their customer has no proof that they paid for a job.
2. It is almost guaranteed that they accept cash to avoid paying their share of tax, forcing everyone else to pay more.
3. Within their industry, they have a bad reputation and will rarely get a trade referral.
Another thing that I noticed was the huge difference in the quality of some DIY work.
Some customers had absolutely no effing idea, but others that bothered to take the time to learn produced work as good as any tradesperson.
Especially noticeable with painting and decorating.
As far as dealing with brutal hagglers - I didn't. There was never a need.
If a new customer started to haggle, that was my signal to end the conversation and not waste anymore time.
Question, not worried about a cheque not clearing?
And general comment:
You know we lack tradies when tradies can just walk away from potential business.
@garetz I actually do have information in this area as I have friends and family who are tradies.
Just because a job is DIY doesn't mean it is going to be less quality than a professional. I've seen tradies complete very shonky work.
You may always use a professional but finding an honest tradie isn't always easy, but good work if you can find one. I'll be sure to ask you next time I need one.
Not all tradies are also forthcoming with their expertise or knowledge in the area and some cowboys just want the job and will promise everything under the sun. This includes individuals and companies.
My example was for him to install 2 towel rails for me. To buy the drill bits + water suction thing would cost me close to $50 + my time. You don't need years and knowledge doing something like that.
Youtube and forums are a great resource where you can learn tips/tricks from other tradies.
e.g. Doing an oil change, hardly complicated on most cars.
Every tradie I've ever had complete work for me has quoted me an "official" price and a cash price. Even when paying cash I have them sign something which says I'm paying them for XYZ bit of work and they're receiving/received XYZ amount of cash for doing the job. I've never had 1 person complain about doing this. The only difference is the tradie doesn't declare it. Not getting anything in writing is asking for trouble.
Why -37?? garetz makes a perfectly reasonable contribution and meets the OZB pitchfork squad.
Negged for posting a link? Really?
As a tradie, all I can say is…
Watch out for customers who claim you stole something/broke something/moved something or steal from you…
This goes both ways… As a locksmith, I value my security license more than a cruddy, used phone.
Edit: There was no link there before I replied. You added it after. Your original comment was solely about tradesmen stealing phones. And I would neg you as well if I wasn’t out of negs for today…
Can you edit a comment with a reply though?
@coxjon: I didn’t reply right away. I saw the comment after I posted my experience below. I noticed that the original comment (without the link added) already had 2 neg votes. I made a spelling error on my post below, and when the page refreshed, the link had been added and the comment about being negged had also been added.
It’s a shame we can’t see revisions on thread comments. Had I have known @Oscar would add the link later, I would have screenshot it when it was just the comment on its own.
Originally, there was no accompanying link. It was just the comment on its own with no source. So, no, they were not negged for posting the link. They were negged for making the comment without any frame of reference at the time.
I am a locksmith and mechanic by trade. I don’t haggle with people. I tell them, “this is the price.” If they start with the haggling, I just thank them for their inquiry and tell them to feel free to call me back if they can’t find a better offer.
I have had customers try and be pushy, but I off load them pretty quick. The ones that lowball you on work are the same ones that don’t want to pay, even if they get a discount. So haggling is a massive red flag for me. I usually end up telling them to go to Airtasker if they want an unqualified, cut throat, cheap deal on work.
Sage words. Really appreciate your sentiments.
Thanks for chiming in.
Amen :)
Correct. The hagglers are the same people who then desperately cast about for a reason not to pay, or to pay less, once the job is done.
Quote a fair price and stick to it. The minute they start to haggle, walk away.
And they are the same ones to lie about the scale of the job they want done, and then load you up when you arrive. Soccer mums with I want to speak to the manager haircuts are also a red flag…
Tradie here. I agree 100%. It is best to tell them your quotes are based on the cost of the job and that they aren't negotiable. When you drop the price, not only do you devalue your work, you give the impression that you had a huge markup to begin with.
This reply is even better than mine. This is exactly why I don’t get into the haggling thing.
Cheers, cashews.
Agreed, Referring people to airtasker is the best way to deal with customers who haggle or want work extra work done thats was not agreed. I do this daily. Gives the customer an option and an out for the tradie.
Agree mostly here. This is pretty much it to a T. I think where people get sour about us tradies, is when said trade charges $xxxx premium (ballpark/top dollar quote) and then abuses that privilege.
Things like not showing up on time, quality per $ for work completed, cutting corners, etc.
I'm an electrician myself and in the middle of my own Reno and I'm blown away by the lack of pride in some people's work. I've prepped and finished and made jobs easier where possible for the trades that I have paid to come in, and they still leave with a sub-par finish. Spoon fed, highly paid rubbish that I've literally ended up redoing myself.on a couple of occasions.
So I speak from both sides, generally you do get what you pay for, but I think given the large tilt in the tradies favour of available work is where the fault begins. There are a lot of tradies just cashing in on the work and it's quite frustrating to have to also compete with that.
how about you also tell them that to be a locksmith you need to be part of a guild? and you basically practice price fixing that is illegal and anti competitive, which is why you can do what you do, which is wrong and your getting rewarded , i really hope your industry is disrupted.
even thought eh lock smith is in my area, this bozo wanted a $150 call out before he fixed anything.
nice one!
Lol. I'm surprised you didn't add something about the Illuminati in there with all the conspiracy theory.
Yes, it is part of gaining your security license for being a locksmith that I need to be a member of a recognised industry body. This is a government requirement, not a secret hand shake covenant. It's so people with criminal history can't get their security license.
Do you even know what price fixing is? I can tell you that this industry is cut-throat. I don't know of anyone colluding with anyone and they would shank their own mother to undercut someone to get a job. Shows you know nothing by making those comments.
Our industry will never be disrupted. Do you want an unqualified person with no security checks to come around and fix your house locks? If you want that, go to Airtasker. Plenty of threads on here of what goes wrong when you do use unqualified people.
$150 call out would not have been just for driving out there. It would be a minimum call out. So, you call the guy out at 3am on a Sunday morning and they have to drive 30 mins each way, all because you got home half drunk and locked your keys in your house. Would you do that for less than $150?
So, basically, your whole comment is rubbish.
so you gona just add your own stupid spin on it and live in your fantasy world, or listen to what i said?
i called the bloke …. it was during business hours… he goes "oh im just around the corner next suburb over" still a $150 call out fee. He could have stopped off and just done the job, but refused, coz as like most lock smiths they are absolute nut sacks, present company [ mystery box ]
but go ahead and tell MY story how ever you want to imagine it mate, i couldn't give a stuff, ive got you sussed out, pretending to be all nice when i know the truth. oh and wouldn't surprised me either about the Illuminati or masonic club - but i wont jump to conclusions like yourself.
@T1OOO: Lol @ my stupid spin. Did you read what you wrote?
I'm in the industry, you clearly, are not.
You had no scenario or reference frame for your comment. All you said was "$150 call out fee" *outrage intensifies*. I just added a typical scenario that locksmiths have to deal with.
But feel free to use Airtasker to get some random person with no qualifications and no industry or security checks to come past and play with your locks ;)
Anyway, thanks for the laughs. It's people like you that are the reason I don't haggle over prices.
I got you sussed out…
Of course you do… :D
@trapper: Yep, that's what I do. Uness it takes a super expensive and specialised tool to complete the job, I just DIY.
Plenty of great online resources, like YouTube if you want to learn how to do things.
He could have stopped off and just done the job, but refused
Christ, if I had to talk to you, I'd refuse you any and all service just because you're insufferable.
@HighAndDry: OMG, if I had a dollar for every person that called me and said… “it’s just a quick job, really easy fix” and it isn’t…
If it’s so cheap and easy to fix, why the (fropanity) did you call me? 🤣
3am call out for a lockout. Get into the house in 5 seconds…
“What? How much? That took you like 5 seconds… I could have done that…”
Yeah? But you didn’t? You’re paying for me getting out of bed, getting in a van, driving a round trip to apply my knowledge.
Sure, what they saw was 5 seconds. What I saw was 2 hours of missing sleep, a van full of tools, fuel, 4 years of training, income tax, superannuation, GST, penalty rates, leave entitlements, insurance, licenses, stock, consumables, depreciation, advertising… The list goes on…
*whine whine* Tradies are all just rip offs. I could have done that for way less…
Choose your customers carefully - because they will recommend you to their ilk.
Also, if you feel you're being lowballed, tell them that's your best price today and that next week you'll be busier and more expensive.
And you can retaliate a low baller with "and then of course the government wants their 10% (GST) on top"
There's those that will pay, those that would pay if they could pay, and those that won't.
Discount your product but never your time. (I can do a better deal on the taps, but the installation is the best I can do if you want the job done properly.)
Never throw in freebies. "Here's the 10 apples you've bought and I've thrown in a couple of extras."
A) you've devalued the unit cost and therefore your profit
B) It will take them 20% longer to return to you to buy more delaying profit growth.
I love the “will you do it cheaper for cash?”
Sure I will… I’ll give you 10% off. I still have to pay for wages, tools, vehicles, licenses, sick leave, annual leave, office ladies, etc etc… the rate is the rate, best I can do is save the tax on it.
My reply is, all jobs go through the books so it makes no difference to me, but if you're more comfortable paying cash then sure, but we'll need it up front thanks.
Tax is not just GST.
It's also X percentage of income tax.
Correct
It is 10% GST plus income tax
If cash I look for 30% off, the benefit to the tradie is no warranty or bookwork
Id love to save 10% and you not tell the gov 😂
So basically you offer to screw the government but keep the entire tax saving yourself. seems rather greedy and selfish.
No. All jobs are booked and go through the system. Tax get paid on everything. But thanks for the assumption.
I am not a sole operator. Pay in cash, rice, bananas, good will, Bible readings, doesn't matter, I still have to give it into the office so they can clear the invoice.
On a $130 job, if all it takes is $11.82 discount to get you to commit, I'll happily reduce it if it means I get paid on the day and without the bullshit.
Ozbargain is full of shitty comments like this.
Everyone gets mad at individuals trying to save a few quid but where is the outrage when the government cuts Education/Science/Public health by the billions with Corporate companies like quantas paying 0 tax for years…..
Tradies do Cashies all the time and dont pay cash. GTFO over it.
What do you tradies do when people refuse to pay?
Probably take it up with police or small courts it is what I would do.
Most tradies know a few bikies who perform debt recovery.
Hand it off to the accounts department. They then become like relentless hounds. Next step is debt recovery agency.
As a mechanic, it’s pretty easy to not give someone their car back until they pay. As a locksmith, I have the keys, and unless it’s an account customer, payment is required on the spot.
I don’t know about other trades. I would hate to be an electrician or a plumber. Not easy to go back in and pull your work back out. If I get a lockout and the customer doesn’t want to pay, I just lock the door again and close it.
And as for the police, payment is a civil matter. Unless it’s getting loud and breaching the peace, the police don’t get involved in matters of payment disputes. Small claims would be one way to go. I just leave that up to the accounts people to chase up.
If I get a lockout and the customer doesn’t want to pay, I just lock the door again and close it.
Well? Have ya had to do this before? What happened?
Had a plumber fix the hot water system. Changed his price at the end. Said if I don't pay he'll undo it. Watched closely what he was doing and did it myself when he left.
Serious question to tradies out there. Does the Toorak tax really exist? Despite living in a small house in an expensive area, I find that my trade jobs are significantly more expensive than my colleagues who live on the other side of the bridge, am I getting ripped off because of my postcode?
Most tradies would have to travel out of their way to do your job. Then they need to travel back out to get to their suppliers. This would be part of the extra cost.
30-100% mark ups?
That answer is not related to the question.
The question is, do you mark up your quotes because you are working in an expensive neighbourhood?
Yes, but the reasons aren't always as simple as this person can afford to live here so they can afford to pay me more.
@ozhunter: People who live in expensive neighbourhoods typically expect a higher standard of service. That is just one reason.
@cantstanzya: Generally more of an elaborate install might explain this better, and this goes with a higher level/more difficult finish.
I don't know why you got the neg so have a plus from me.
Why not? Supply and demand, keeping in mind that 'demand' includes willingness and ability to pay. But no - there are a lot of other reasons, the most basic is that the risk of working on a more expensive property is inherently higher.
You probably do pay more because of extra travel, parking issues, access issues, rubbish disposal, etc.
My GF lives in Crows Nest 5km north of Sydney CBD. Her handyman used to come from 25km away. Parking in her street is all 2 hour limit and often full. It's a bun fight if you need to be on site all day.
Her handyman moved to the country and now her and the other folks in the street pay $60/hr cash in hand for a handyman to change light bulbs and put up shelves.
When it looked like I was being made redundant earlier this year I was seriously considering starting a handyman business in the area.
As a customer. Could you do it this way? Price the job. Work out an amount you willing to discount it to and just say upfront I can do it for this, but I can cut XX off today if you accept it. Will likely be higher next week as getting busy. That's my price.
All we want is a fair price for your time and you obviously need to cover expenses and profit. Its just horrifying the cost of tradies when you see it as 1 task. I don't know how to get around it. Also a tip. Turn up to the job on time and if you can't make it call the customer and let them know. Too many tradies don't return calls or do customer service. Not hard. Also give a time frame for works to start and complete. Nothing worse for a small job to take months. Just poor time management.
but I can cut XX off today if you accept it.
A good idea if you are up to your third quote but terrible advice if it's your first quote for a particular job.
I mean just work off the price your willing to do the work for and factor in a discount that you want to give. You don't lose and the consumer thinks they are getting a ok price. Your happy and they are happy. As long as your've worked out your own price as fair and not ripping of the consumer.
So you're saying they should overprice the quote then immediately discount it to the actual price, tricking the customer into thinking they got a good deal?
I mean just work off the price your willing to do the work for and factor in a discount that you want to give.
This makes no sense.
"Price you're willing to do the work for" would be a price that can't be discounted further. If they're willing to give a discount, then they're obviously willing to do the work for less.
Most tradies have a set hourly rate. This is worked out on covering all the expenses. Most of the time, people are calling in and asking for quotes on jobs that we have not seen, so, no, I would never say over the phone what I would charge. I also don’t get into the “but if you get it don’t this week, I’ll do it for XX.” The price is the price. Unless I really need the job, I would never quote two prices.
The costs of tradies isn’t that really that expensive when you consider it as a whole. Some of the tools I have alone are worth a small fortune. Then there is all the other overheads. And I say to people when they complain, you are paying for my knowledge and expertise as well.
As for your tip, here is one for everyone from our perspective… stop loading up work or bullshitting and hiding work. Everyone does this. I get to a job and all of a sudden it’s “can you have a look at this, and this, this and that as well while you are here…” Book a tradie early in the day. That way they will more likely be on time. By the time 3pm comes around, I’m going to be late, all because the the people in front of you lied about their job or access to it or hit me with a surprise addition when I got there.
As for tradies not calling back, this is just really bad form. I find that most of the knuckle dragging types are the ones who don’t call back. A lot of them only want certain work from certain clients. Sometimes if they are a week or two booked up, they won’t return calls. Still, at least put a voice mail saying this or something.
As for start and complete, this is usually, I find, the issue with the person I’m dealing with. The quick 1 hour job turns into a mess because they didn’t tell me the house was basically made of asbestos, or that they keep loading jobs on, or they have grossly misrepresented what they needed done. Another thing that blows jobs out is unexpected issues. This is beyond anyone’s control. Parts supply is out of my hands as well. I can’t have every single part for every single vehicle ever made on my shelf. An idea for you, had a customers KTM in for repair, and one seal took 6 weeks to arrive. When people ask me “how long till it’s done” I always reply, “how long is a piece of string?”
TL;DR
So, if you want a tradie to be reasonable on price, phone a couple and ask them to come out and quote the job. Take the one that gives the best quote. If you want them to turn up on time, ask them what day can they start first cab off the rank or for an early morning start. If you want a job to be completed on time, don’t add jobs on when they get there or turn it into a bigger project. Let them know as much as you can about the scope of work and any access issues and the like.
For every horror story a person gives me about bad tradies, I have more than enough bad customer stories to tell them in return.
Don't work for the general public
A few other people have said it but just don't haggle. Have a fixed price. Tell people that. Up front if you're worried about it. Otherwise bill them and if they refuse to pay then just take them to small claims or use a debt recovery service (never tried one, might be a bad idea).
i chased someone up for bad debt right up to the courts - it cost me more than they recovered.
i'd now only use the no recovery no fee Russians guys.
o
hmmm, wondering… someone else suggested Bikies' might also provide such services.
Are people saying this 'tongue in cheek' or dare I ask, do such… 'services' really exist.
Would then have to wonder about the pros' and cons (no pun intended) of going down that road!
its a running joke
you don't want to get into bikies feeling you now "owe them"
although many people know someone who would gladly bash someone for money its a slippery slope.
illegal is another thing but the cops are too busy with speeding tix and hounding kids going into dances.
dare I ask, do such… 'services' really exist.
I think @TheCutter may have been referring the Prushka Debt Recovery, not actual Russian mafia… I kinda want to be wrong though. :D
Bikies are part of the unregulated debt recovery racket and may charge upwards of $10,000 plus a percentage of debt recovered so a tradie probably wouldn't use them unless it was a huge job.
Did you use a debt recovery service or do your own small claims? Doing your own small claims is pretty cheap.
what is the ballpark court costs ?
In such circumstances adopt the answer a question with another:
Haggler: What's your best price mate?
Me: For you or for me?
Haggler: What is your last price?
Me: Can I speak with the last person you bought from?
For you or for me?
This is my new favourite saying.
Whats the story with Airtasker?
Is it good?
Somewhat dodgy?
There was a thread about dodgy deadbolt installations or something a whole back
There was a thread about dodgy deadbolt installations
I think you meant the one about the Airtasker that took 7 hours to fit a smart lock…
Yep that's the one!
Re Airtasker vetting the people on their site, this quote from you was brilliant:
You wanted a cheap surgeon and what you got was a butcher. Similar tools, different work ethic.
Not awful for jobs that you could do yourself reasonably well. If you wouldn't DIY it then airtasker is a very mixed bag.
I don't think it's all the customer's fault. Part of the problem is that there do exist tradies who are trying to rip off customers by quoting very high prices and only dropping the price when the customer knows that it's too high. There's a reason why people don't go to Kmart and try to haggle the price.
Trust me, customers don't want to go through the pain of haggling either. This problem has an easy solution. For the tradie, just give one clear price, if the customer does not accept, walk away. For the customer, shop around, get the best price, go with that guy.
It's the same with buying cars, I wish every dealership would just give me their price, I'll compare the dealerships and then go with the best price. I wouldn't haggle unless I knew they are expecting me to haggle.
So, you feel that the best price is the way to go without consideration of the work done or to be done?
It may be a suitable theory in some cases but for many others… not, would you agree?
I myself don't think it is so cut and dried as a policy…
I for one can admit to utilising this strategy and realised later I would have been better off spending more.
It reminded me of a saying I'd heard years ago but I had to look it up as couldn't quite remember how it went…
It said: “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of a low price is forgotten” (Benjamin Franklin).
How do you know the more expensive tradie will do a better job? They could both have good reviews.
Either are possible, very subjective where and how one wants to draw the line I suppose.
So, you feel that the best price is the way to go without consideration of the work done or to be done?
No, but if you're charging more than the competition, it's up to you to make sure the customer knows why you are charging more. It's then the customer's choice as to whether they want to pay more or less. Plenty of people want to buy Kogan TV's, plenty of people want to buy Samsung/Sony TV's, same deal here.
I've had a deeper think about this though. Your original question was around why customers haggle. I think customers haggle because:
1) Prices are not readily available and easily accessible
2) Customers do not know what exactly they are paying for
3) There are tradies who do try and rip people off (I've had tradies quote me double what another tradie has)
I think there would be less haggling if there existed a site like AutoGuru. Everybody lists their prices for common fixes (e.g. replacement of a hot water tank), customers can see what exactly is included with each service and can see reviews of all the tradies. The prices are fixed and if a customer books, all parties agree to the price in advance. This makes it easier for everyone.
Easy solution: Don't haggle - get multiple quotes.
The biggest problems I found with this, is people in general don't realise what the actual cost is of Job they want/need doing they often base their assumption on the materials they can see, not the combined list of materials it takes to complete the job and the work involved in doing it correctly.
I.e it's just 2 power points they are like 10 bucks each
So be clear you're not just doing it for fun be upfront and make them read the scope of work they requested and have them sign off on it and on the terms before you start, you know what your time is worth, providing a near as dammit list of materials and costs is a big help for some. (The ones who watch you like a hawk and say oh but you didn't buy those for this job you already had them lying around in a tub of bits) still bought and paid for them.
The worst thing with hagglers is they often are the ones who make the job more complicated by changing their mind mid way through and want a couple of extra things and expect it to be a fraction more because hey your there and you have done most of the hard work in their eyes, how much harder is it to add a couple or 6 down lights in too, thinking they are avoiding an extra charge for coming back.
Then think you're out of line when they get the bill.
I wouldn't cut corners to save money that's when things go wrong or someone gets hurt. not worth it.
If they are a pain before you start then you have to weigh it up do you need the hassle you aren't obliged to take the job on.
Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad but it doesn't mean you have to sell yourself short, to keep a customer happy.
Be honest, be fair, be clear, be professional, no-one can ever fault that.
If you underestimate the job be upfront. instead of 4 hours it's going to take 8, that's when you have to cop one on the chin (I've also had people appreciate that and given me a little extra because they felt bad)
Dealing with Brutual Hagglers….
1. Avoid them altogether if you dont need them
2. Jack up the price by 50% and give them 20% off or nothing at all
3. Repeat your price over and over again and dont budge
- Jack up the price by 50% and give them 20% off or nothing at all
This is why people haggle in the first place…
If you want to avoid haggling, why not just do the supermarket model - the price is $X, the customer can choose to buy or not buy. The reason why people haggle is because they know that you'd accept $500, but are quoting them $700 (for example).
The reason for big mark ups is often for a PITA factor, after a while you often get a feeling for clients who are going to be unreasonably difficult or the Job is a really bad and one you don't want to do, so tradies will put an unreasonable markup on it, if they do have to do it you just console yourself with the money you are making
I believe smart tradies don't even show up if you ask their price over the phone :P