Car Accident, Is The P Plater Responsible?

Lbeefmaster on 23/10/2018 - 09:58
Last edited 23/10/2018 - 10:56 by 1 other user

MSPaint as requested
https://imgur.com/gs3U2Kz

Just want to share an incident I witnessed. Should the P plater have stopped to let car into the lane?

On a 70km/hr road a P plater cut from left lane to middle lane because of stopped bus. Once successfully changed to middle lane, the P plater continued to slow down to near stop, to let a car in front into the middle lane.

At this point I hear a loud crash and car behind and saw a semi-trailer smashed into a Ute with forces enough to push the Ute to the side curb.

I caught up to the P plater and told her she should not have stopped and let the car into the lane. The P plater oblivious to the incident and believe she is not at fault which I kind of agree and also disagree.

My opinion, the fault is the semi-trailer because the semi-trailer should have kept a safe distance. If I understand correctly it is always the car behind involved in the accident is at fault, but I feel the P plater should not have stopped to let the car in, especially on a 70km/hr road. All these could have been avoided if the P plater just keep on rolling forward.

I will create a poll, everyone loves poll.

Poll Options

  • 30
    Yes, P plater is the cause of the accident.
  • 308
    No, P plater is not the cause of the accident.
  • 18
    Some where in between Yes and No.
Automotive

Comments

      • Mrgreenz on 25/10/2018 - 13:46
        +1

        The calcs are correct. Braking distance was never mentioned only following distance.

        What was implied is that leaving a 3 second gap will cause other motorists to fill that 3 second gap. Which is largely true in city driving

    • MessyG on 25/10/2018 - 20:05

      I was always taught 3 second gap or 4 seconds in the rain by my driving instructor. And I do that, and other motorists usually do fill that gap which is fine by me.

  • DazMon on 24/10/2018 - 16:41

    Somewhere, out there, is going to be dash cam footage showing a whole other viewpoint of this mess.

  • Herbse on 24/10/2018 - 22:22
    +2

    "the person behind is always at fault" is not a true fact. I know this because I've been in an accident where the person in front changed lanes and then braked to a stop at an interesection, causing a pile up. The person in front was found to be the at fault and their insurance company paid for the other cars damage.

    If the other drivers can prove that the P plater changed lanes then braked, not leaving enough gap for people behind her to stop in time. Then she will be at fault.

    If the Ute driver swerved to avoid her, then got hit in the rear, leaving the P platers car undamaged. Then it's going to be harder to prove she's at fault.

    • Miss B on 27/10/2018 - 10:40

      If the P plater had been hit, sure. Obviously they left enough room for the car behind them to not hit them. From reading other comments the ute wasn't even the car behind the P plater I think they were a few cars behind.

  • downdowndown on 24/10/2018 - 22:33

    P plater using left lane to get ahead of traffic.
    Bus stops in front.
    Cuts into middle lane.
    Feels good.
    Becomes courteous and let's someone in trying to do same.
    Accident happens back up the road

  • stingyashell on 25/10/2018 - 00:00
    +1

    dude u know i can drive n brake for no reason and the person behind is always at fault??? the person behind always have the last action to control the situation. Can you imagine someone tailgating you and it your fault?

  • Msquared on 25/10/2018 - 01:35

    I think that P definitely helped create a situation where Semi's behaviour had an unexpected consequence, but Semi is still responsible for the conversion of that possibility into the actual outcome of a collision with Ute.

    There's an interesting site called No Surprise - No Accident that would call this situation a failure of Semi to predict the possibility of a collision and act accordingly. That site is aimed at motorcyclists, but I think it applies to all of us on the road…

  • CMH on 25/10/2018 - 01:47
    +3

    P-plater might have caused the accident, but wouldn't be at fault.

    The semi definitely should have left enough space to stop. 100% at fault for insurance purposes.

    This scenario happens quite often actually, I've heard many versions of it…

    • trapper on 01/11/2018 - 17:48

      Not just insurance purposes, semi driver will likely be charged with careless driving.

  • Nick939 on 25/10/2018 - 01:52
    +1

    The main cause of this accident is lack of attention to the road and/or fail to leave safe gap of the truck driver.

    Imagine if a dog ran onto the road. Would you blame the accident on the p plater for suddenly stopping? Would you blame the dog? Or would you blame the person who was not leaving a safe gap and/or not paying attention. I certainly know who I’d blame.

    The p plater didn’t cause the accident and is certainly not to blame. If they didn’t let the car behind the bus in and then collided with the bus or p plater, would you go and scold the p plater for not being more courteous on the road? I think it’s very harsh you blamed the p plater.

  • Efendy on 25/10/2018 - 05:14

    This post is what I call a "thinking out loud"!

  • kaleidoscope on 25/10/2018 - 06:48

    Nope. Truck driver should have kept enough distance to safely stop

  • factor on 25/10/2018 - 07:15
    -1

    Slowing heavily in front of a heavy truck? By the laws of physics I find the P plater closer to dead.

    As this P plater still appears oblivious after the event, I predict them being buried with their P plates, never graduating to full license.

  • nikey2k27 on 25/10/2018 - 08:08

    semi-trailer but it so hard in truck keep safe back every (profanity) try to get into it.

  • grr1701 on 25/10/2018 - 09:18

    Geez, we don’t want drivers, especially P-platers, showing consideration and courtesy to other road users, do we? Next they’ll be indicating on roundabouts correctly. Where will it all stop? No one should drive in an uncomfortable/unsafe way just because someone behind them is driving poorly (the truck’s tailgating in this instance).

    • Ughhh on 25/10/2018 - 09:57
      +2

      There's a time and place to be nice. P-plater could've slowed down to give space to the other lane, if she kept a safe distance infront and looked at the traffic ahead. But instead, she came to a complete stop and caused a dangerous situation without thinking of the consequences. Worst thing is her stopping wasnt even for an emergency ie. Child running across the road.

      If she keeps doing this on a busy road, it's gonna hurt her. You can't control tailgaters and make them stop, but you can control what you do and how to prevent the worst from happening.

      • Nick939 on 25/10/2018 - 20:00

        P plater continued to slow down to NEAR stop, to let a car in front into the middle lane.

        You didn't even read the post let alone know the full situation to make a judgement like that.

        • Ughhh on 25/10/2018 - 20:12

          Ok so she slowed down to what…like 10 or 20kmphr in a "70kmphr zone** is still safe?

          • whooah1979 on 25/10/2018 - 20:13

            @Ughhh: 40 km/h as per the sign on the back of the bus.

            • Ughhh on 25/10/2018 - 20:19

              @whooah1979: That's hardly near stop

              • whooah1979 on 25/10/2018 - 20:28

                @Ughhh: it's slow enough to cop verbal abuse from other motorists. sydney motorist are aggressive and many won't tolerate anyone travelling at any speed other than the speed limit.

          • Nick939 on 25/10/2018 - 20:15

            @Ughhh: You are making more assumptions. Hypothetically traffic was going slow, especially since a bus was there. P plater and traffic was probably already on the breaks. People always push in when merging the, car made a judgement to let them in. No problem in that scenario.

            • Ughhh on 25/10/2018 - 20:18

              @Nick939: You're making assumptions too

              • Nick939 on 25/10/2018 - 21:01

                @Ughhh: I was speaking hypothetically to counteract your assumptions. Not trying to argue with you.

          • smartazz104 on 25/10/2018 - 21:09

            @Ughhh: Depends, how fast was the truck going?

  • lint on 25/10/2018 - 09:29

    I can't see how the P-plater is at fault here.

    Let's never give way to anybody in case somebody behind us gets angry and forgets to keep a safe distance!

    • Jugganautx on 25/10/2018 - 15:20
      +1

      On a constant traffic rd slowong to near complete stop within seconds… sounds like absolute stupidity

      • smartazz104 on 25/10/2018 - 21:08

        Only according to what OP has posted, without detailing exactly what he was actually able to witness…

  • lostn on 25/10/2018 - 09:54

    Could have been avoided, but as far as insurance is concerned, it's an open and shut case. Should have kept a wider distance between the vehicle in front.

    People aren't going to look behind when deciding whether to let someone in.

  • CAPTCHHHA on 25/10/2018 - 10:03
    +1

    Let's forget why the P plate lady did it in the first place, consider a scenario where she had to stop and there was no choice.
    Would the accident still have happened?
    Who would have been at fault then?

  • KaraZorEl on 25/10/2018 - 11:15
    +1

    As a P plater myself, I would have done the same as this P plater. Now, how slow and how quickly she got to would matter. If it was safe to drop speed, I would have allowed the car to merge (dropping no more than 61km). Too many people don't have the courtesy to let someone pass EVEN WHEN it really safe to do so.

    I drive quite conscious of the fact that if I'm ever involved in an accident, regardless of who is at fault, I'll be the first one to be blamed. That's why we got a damcam once I got my license.

  • geoffs87 on 25/10/2018 - 11:18
    +2

    why does it matter they're a P plater, why can't they just be "Car A".

    Im many moons past being a P plater, but i imagine this is partially whats wrong with Australians thinking millennial/teenagers/P platers are bad.

    Oh and to the point, you should have enough space between you and car in front to Stop in case of emergency, regardless of whether the car stopped for the right reasons or not.

    • Jugganautx on 25/10/2018 - 15:22

      Assuming they had their first yr p's, it matters alot. Probably had less than 100 hrs driving experience by themself. Inexperienced and naive.

    • Nick939 on 25/10/2018 - 20:02
      +1

      People read P plater and are instantly bias. This creates a bias discussion as we are seeing in the thread.

  • [Deactivated] on 25/10/2018 - 12:01

    Obviously the P Plater created an unsafe situation.

    Rather than move into a lane with flowing traffic and then bring it to a stop the P-plater could have stopped behind the bus and then merged when it was safe to do so.

    Yes, vehicles have to follow at a safe distance behind other traffic, in practice though with large trucks sharing the road with other vehicles cutting in front of them and then doing stupid things it is not always possible for a truck driver to fully obey this law. The reason is physics and practicality.

    If we all left the required distance between the vehicles in front of us to account for a complete and sudden application of the brakes once the vehicle has cut in front of us our traffic would snarl up like nothing else. People drive to road conditions & the likely behaviour of drivers around them. When people do exceptionally stupid things, like merge into flowing traffic then slam on their brakes - accidents happen.

    The correct approach for the driver would have been to wait in their lane and merge when they could join the flowing traffic and flow with it.

    Insurance companies may not see it that way, nor may the law (hey the law isn't always right!), but it is what is correct and the safest action to take for all concerned.

    • CMH on 25/10/2018 - 12:45

      If we all left the required distance between the vehicles in front of us to account for a complete and sudden application of the brakes once the vehicle has cut in front of us our traffic would snarl up like nothing else.

      Actually the opposite is true. Leaving enough space so you don't have to tap the brakes for every small thing tends to make traffic flow smoother and overall makes it faster.

      On my phone now or I'd Google some studies up.

  • john smith123 on 25/10/2018 - 12:52

    My friend had a similar situation recently he was in the middle as the ute in this case.
    It was in parramatta rd, he was in the middle and the left lane there was a bus stopping and the guy behind the bus cut his lane and he stopped and the car behind hit my friend. Then my friend actually chased the guy that cut the lane (he was trying to run). Then they call police. They explained the situation but at the end it is the guy that cut was wrong but he didnt involve in the accident so he may go. It is unfair but well its the rule i guess.

    • CMH on 25/10/2018 - 12:55

      Next time that happens and police are there, ask them to book that guy for failure to give way.

      You need proof to back up your story though.

  • syousef on 25/10/2018 - 14:27
    +2

    It's actually not that clear cut without knowing the speeds and timing involved. The truck driver is going to wear it, but that's because blaming the driver behind is a legal short cut in the road rules to avoid the often impossible task of determining who's actually at fault.

    I think we can all agree that regardless of the law if someone cuts in front of you at slow speed or stops, and you're doing highway speed, you have almost no chance of avoiding them. And trying to avoid the collision at the last moment can mean side-swiping someone else. Of course a larger, heavier truck is going to have a longer stopping distance. It's simple physics. The amount of room they'd have to provide between them and the car in front will often be taken up by someone trying to slot in the lane. It really is hard luck for that truckie.

    If the P plater hadn't let the car out, and the car had cut in anyway so that she had hit the car, you'd still all be blaming the P plater. With one difference: the P plater having struck the other car from behind would likely be legally held at fault.

    According to this, in a pile up (which this wasn't) "In some cases, the last car in the pile up may be deemed responsible for the damage to each car involved, or if the cars in front had already collided, the last car may only be deemed responsible for the one immediately in front."
    https://acornrentals.com.au/2014/11/02/hit-behind-car-accide…
    That matches what happened to my mother about 10 years ago. L plater came to a screeching halt. About 6 cars involved and each car deemed responsible for the one in front of it. The L plater and his father tried to switch seats and remove the plates so the L plater wouldn't lose his license, so they got into additional trouble for that, but it didn't change who was determined at fault.

    If the truck had pushed the ute into the P plater and into the car in front (a pile up) the P plater would likely have been blamed for hitting the car, the ute for hitting her, the truck for hitting the ute. It's kinda lucky there were only 2 cars involved instead of 4. Of course it won't feel lucky for the truckie or the ute driver.

    Bottom line: It is very unlikely for the P plater to be determined legally at fault.

  • aussieolfaction on 25/10/2018 - 14:33
    +2

    $10 says you're the P plater in question, and for a change you're not "a friend", but are another eye-witness in this case. :-p

  • minotaurian on 25/10/2018 - 15:31

    Might as well as blame the other car, for cutting in front of the P-plater, but this can be hard to prove without any dash cam. Also if the bus was indicating out, the P-plater is obligated to stop. In either case the P-plater is never at fault. All of the fault lies on the semi-trailer not providing enough distance.

    In any situation when you drive adjacent to a stationary Bus, you should be slowing down anyways. I learnt this the hard way, by failing both my L and P by not slowing down and giving way to a bus.

  • rover100 on 25/10/2018 - 20:03

    Sounds like P-plater went full retard parking in free flowing traffic causing an accident. But for insurance purposes not at fault.

  • smartazz104 on 25/10/2018 - 21:06

    OP where were you in all of this? How do you know the P plater came to a "near stop"? A truck driver should have a better view of the road and see more of what is happening around them; apparently not in this case.

  • ajr5k on 25/10/2018 - 22:18

    "I caught up to the P plater and told her she should not have stopped and let the car into the lane. The P plater oblivious to the incident and believe she is not at fault which I kind of agree and also disagree."

    I'm legitimately trying to work out how you did this. Yelling out the window or she pulled over to see if the drivers were ok or…?

    In any event, no liability from the P-Plater. Semi failed to leave safe distance and rear ended the vehicle in front of them. At fault 100%, send it to the insurer and move on. Vehicles can be repaired, lives are much more valuable and fortunately it seems like nobody was injured.

    • syousef on 26/10/2018 - 09:59

      It's really easy to catch up to the P plater when she's sitting next to you. I'm guessing it was a relative or significant other he's asking for (if not himself).

      I don't think I've ever hear of anyone catching up to a stranger to discuss an accident neither were any part of - more likely to give evidence to police or talk to the drivers that were in the accident.

      Now I could be wrong and if so I apologise but if not why is OP playing games?

  • belongsinforums on 26/10/2018 - 00:30

    If the bus suddenly indicated to merge right, the P plater would have been obligated to give way and thus stop. The semi would have hit the ute in this scenario too.

  • Oliver on 26/10/2018 - 06:26

    truck driver is at fault in the accident.

    p plater's unpredictable actions contributed to the accident happening by causing an unexpected event on the road, but not at fault, nor liable.

  • leznix on 26/10/2018 - 10:02

    If someone does not know how to determine the safe distance from the car in front, this person has no business driving on the road.

    Also, there is a reason for the existence of P-Plates. This is to alert the other drivers that this particular car is being driven by a less experienced driver, so to be more careful and not to give unnecessary pressure to the young driver.

    • smartazz104 on 26/10/2018 - 15:15

      By that logic at least 60% of drivers on the road should have a P plate on their car…

      • leznix on 26/10/2018 - 15:37

        You might be right.

        There are people who have gotten their license for years but only driven just a few times in their life. I personally know someone like that.

  • hypie on 02/11/2018 - 20:32

    Sounds like a bit of a d!ck move by the P plater, however the truck was likely tailgating the ute. It is the trucks fault.

  • Eeples on 03/11/2018 - 23:40

    The truck is the P plater in this scenario because they failed to leave a big enough gap.

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