Officer Error in Parking Fine, Council Will Not Admit Mistake (VIC)

Jaystea on 01/08/2018 - 18:49
Last edited 01/08/2018 - 19:01 by 1 other user

Hi guys I have an issue with the council fining my car for parking over the time limit (Banyule council).

I parked my car for 2 hours from 8.30am to 10.30am a few weeks ago, in a 2 hour spot.

I then moved my car and parked in a different 2 hour spot at 10.30, on the opposite side of the road, a few car spots down from original spot. I came back at 12pm only to find a parking fine, stipulating that I had parked over the time limit. I noticed then that I had a mark on my wheel at the 6 o'clock position, so probably around 9.30 am. The fine says parked from. 9.30 to 12.07pm which is not true.

I wrote in to the council saying that I was parked in a different area from 8.30 to 10.30, and I had moved the car after that. To which they responded with a generic "the vehicle was noted to be parked for a period longer than the time indicated" and then continued to show me my options (I.e. Pay the fine).

What can I do in this case? Given it's a legitimate error of the officer?

Automotive Parking Fine

closed Comments

  • Baysew on 01/08/2018 - 18:56
    +9

    Now that your fine has been reviewed, you can either pay the fine or have your case heard in the magistrates court.

    This thread maybe of some assistance - Parking Fine but No Photographic Evidence, however as that OP didn't get back to the OZB community, who knows what the final outcome was.

    • rompastompa on 01/08/2018 - 20:23
      +1

      devpress is online right now, maybe OP can reply to one of their comments and see. They probably didn't check back on the thread to see your comment.

  • Ocker on 01/08/2018 - 18:57
    +22

    The question is does the time limit apply to parking in the exact same position, or the general area?

    • Jaystea on 01/08/2018 - 19:06

      I'm not too sure about this one tbh. It's a surbaban street with the same signs every few metres. No photographic evidence

      • Ocker on 01/08/2018 - 19:10
        +20

        I only pose the question because I seem to recall that somewhere in the past I read that simply "moving" the car does not qualify to re-start the time limit (for obvious reasons I guess).
        May be worth an "anonymous" call to the council and pose to them the hypothetical scenario of whether moving a car to a nearby parking bay re-starts the clock. Nothing to lose and everything to gain in the approach IMHO.

        • chumlee on 02/08/2018 - 08:22
          +22

          Yes we went through this some months ago and no one wanted to believe me at first. You need to move out of the area. You cannot just move your car across the road.

        • tomsco on 02/08/2018 - 10:41
          +5

          @chumlee: I believed you.

        • Kangal on 02/08/2018 - 19:17
          +2

          @tomsco:

          I questioned you.

          Do you have to move out of that council area to a different council area?
          Alas, we will never know.

        • elgrande on 02/08/2018 - 20:18
          +2

          @chumlee:

          I wanted to believe you, I just didn't.

        • Alzori on 03/08/2018 - 08:23
          +1

          @chumlee: still don't know if you're correct, but I believe the spirit of a 2hr limit is that you don't use the area if you want to hang around for more than the limit, don't just move your car.

          Otherwise why would there be an issue with just shuffling your car forwards 6m every 2 hours? You're moving your car to a new spot and all.

        • macrocephalic on 03/08/2018 - 16:55
          +1

          This has been the case in Queensland for many years. If the street is a two hour zone then you're strictly only allowed to park there two hours per day IIRC.

      • toniyellow on 01/08/2018 - 19:37
        +3

        Their website says

        It is illegal to park for longer than the time indicated on a parking sign in the street or area to which the sign applies.

        https://www.banyule.vic.gov.au/Services/Transport-Parking-an…

        You could perhaps write to them saying their signs could be clearer about this, but I probably wouldn't risk taking it to court if you didn't move your car very far.

        • pegaxs on 02/08/2018 - 07:47

          in the street or area to which the sign applies.

          OP stayed in the same area. That’s why they received the review with no change of outcome.

        • HighAndDry on 02/08/2018 - 09:40
          +3

          It's pretty clear. It says "street or area". OP literally parked on the opposite side of the street, so the same street and likely also the same area.

        • RyanMK on 02/08/2018 - 21:29
          +4

          How does one define what an area is? What if an entire 10 minutes walking radius has the same 1 hour parking limit?

          Genuinely curious.

        • Alzori on 03/08/2018 - 08:27

          @RyanMK: practically I guess you could imagine it's the area that an inspector would check in one session.

        • Blitzfx on 03/08/2018 - 09:15
          +4

          @HighAndDry:

          A sign cannot encompass the opposite side of the street, so it's a different area.
          A only time a sign would encompass an area is something like a parking lot, then you can define that as an 'area'.

          The opposite side of the street is another "area" / "street" which requires another sign to be installed indicating parking conditions.
          I'm sure you've seen many times one side of the street in the CBD or something, 'Loading bay only-no parking' and the other side of the street 2P or something like that.

        • whooah1979 on 03/08/2018 - 09:26

          @Blitzfx:

          The opposite side of the street is another "area" / "street"

          Not according to the council. The opposite side of the street is the same street. The parking zone on the other side could be different. Op now have the choice to pay the penalty notice or have the matter heard in court.

        • HighAndDry on 03/08/2018 - 09:32

          @Blitzfx: A sign can't encompass the other side of the street, but it can certainly form part of the same parking zone if the signs on that opposite side of the street say so, and per the regs quoted above - same street is same street.

        • Blitzfx on 03/08/2018 - 10:07

          @whooah1979:

          Oh oops, by "street" I meant the area_on_the_street for which the sign applies, so like left side / right side of the street.

        • Blitzfx on 03/08/2018 - 10:16
          +2

          @HighAndDry:

          The regs says

          It is illegal to park for longer than the time indicated on a parking sign in the street or area to which the sign applies

          If one 2P sign is on the left side of the street, installed on pedestrian footpath, it cannot apply to the right side of the street because that would require another sign. These two signs may be on the same JohnDoe_Street but both command separate parking zones.

          I don't think you can make the claim that just because both signs say 2P means it's the same parking zone/area. They're two different areas and the wording in the council rules isn't precise enough to warrant such an assumption like you would with a parking lot or a sign posted in the middle of a median strip and applies to both left and right lane parking.

          OP has indicated taking a day out isn't a huge deal. The court takes wording and semantics very seriously and there's a good case for OP since the wording isn't specific about what you claim to be is the same zone/area.

        • HighAndDry on 03/08/2018 - 10:41
          +1

          @Blitzfx: I think you're misreading it. It says:

          in the street or area to which the sign applies

          I mean, unless you take the view that one street or one area can only have one parking sign, it's almost axiomatic that multiple signs can and will apply to the same street/area.

        • abb on 03/08/2018 - 11:01
          -1

          Unless there was one big sign at the entrance to the road that says "xxx parking area", OP should be OK in moving to the other side of the street. Especially if OP went through any intersections as part of moving their car.

          At least in NSW, parking signs seem to apply separately to each side of the road, although there is some ambiguity…

          http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_reg/rr2014104…

        • Jaystea on 03/08/2018 - 12:19
          +4

          While I appreciate this, and it makes me even more hesitant to contest my issue in court. I do resonate with what others are saying.

          Around the surbaban streets of the Austin and Repatriation hospital, there are parking signs strewn across every street, on both sides. Sometimes they are the same, sometimes they are different. If a street sign were to encompass both sides of the road, then why the confusion with having them on both sides of the road, sometimes having different pieces of information, and sometimes having the same?

          I think it's clear that most people, if they see a sign on one side of the road, and none on the other side, they would most definitely concur that they would be allowed to park for the full day on the side without any signs whatsoever, despite it being on the same "street" and same "area".

          Correct me if I'm wrong about this?

        • Jaystea on 03/08/2018 - 12:28

          @Blitzfx: This is what I think too, but obviously I'm no lawyer, and I can't decipher language.

        • miicah on 03/08/2018 - 14:53
          -1

          @Jaystea: Proof by contradiction. If the sign applies to both sides of the street, then a street with different signs on each side must apply to each other, cancelling out the signs.

      • dimitryp on 02/08/2018 - 11:11
        +4

        Parking in metro areas (at least in Sydney) are separated into parking zones. Sometimes there's a little number on the parking sign to indicate the zone. You can also get the zone maps from your council, this specifically helps with applying for residents parking permits.
        I believe you cant park for longer than stated time period in the entire zone, but could move to another zone to reset your timer. Zones are generally 1-2 blocks.

    • HeWhoKnows on 02/08/2018 - 13:47
      +1

      It applied the the entire zone. Not a particular parking sopt.

    • CandyMan on 02/08/2018 - 18:04

      It would be 2 hr per side per day

    • dundy on 03/08/2018 - 07:51
      +2

      the limit does not exist

  • GangGang on 01/08/2018 - 19:09
    +2

    Did you pay for the parking or was it free?

    If you paid you will have 2 receipts that may say 2 different parking bays.

    Private parking? Can you ask for video surveillance of you moving?

  • garetz on 01/08/2018 - 19:09
    -1

    Fight the fine, in the end you are in the right, but is it worth the effort and time for you to do so, it could be the fine is a nuisance but will be much cheaper than fighting it.

    • HeWhoKnows on 02/08/2018 - 13:45
      +11

      No! OP is in the wrong as he never left the timed zone. Simply moved his car by his own admission.
      And the mark which remained on his tyre says it all.

  • stratbargain on 01/08/2018 - 19:15
    +2

    Read the following:

    http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr20…

    My Interpretation:
    If the parking sign was on one side of the road and you switched sides you're in the right.
    If the sign was in the middle of the road and you switched sides you are in the wrong.

  • Jaystea on 01/08/2018 - 19:26

    I suppose the other question would be: how much in court fees would I have to pay if I lose? Because having never been in this position before it is difficult to ascertain whether or not a judge would rule in my favour. I'd have to take a day off to go, and while I don't mind that part as much, it would be a kick in the guts if I lost.

    • Drj55 on 02/08/2018 - 07:41

      And therein lies the central dilemma that everyone faces… And then pays the fine! I wonder what the stats are for people who go to court.

      • elgrande on 02/08/2018 - 20:20
        +3

        The doors of the court are open for all.. much like the doors at the Hilton hotel :/

  • Randxyz123 on 01/08/2018 - 19:31
    +20

    Not worth the day off work.

    In most areas, you can't just move your car to a different spot in the same area. That doesn't reset the clock.

    There have been 1,000,000 posts about this. It sucks but it's the reality.

    • [Deactivated] on 01/08/2018 - 23:05
      +4

      seriously this is the best advice. I have no idea why people would bother taking a day or 2 off work just for a few hundred bucks. (In WA you have to appear 2 maybe 3 times even for a basic traffic fine)

      • imahapyboy on 05/08/2018 - 00:02

        not worth it for annual leave, but surly worth it for sick leave……. lol, i feel so sick about………..

    • chess on 04/08/2018 - 15:47

      I agree that it's not worth the day off work, but the same also applies to the parking inspector.

      If you're truly innocent, go to court.
      Call the prosecutor and request for the parking inspector to attend court and give evidence as well.

      The council will not want their inspectors wasting time in court when they can be out dishing fines so it's possible they might just drop the case.

      In my experience (https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/394446) when I attended court, I heard 4 or 5 similar cases and the judge either waived the fine or demanded that the person pay it. I don't recall anybody incurring additional fees/charges.

      • CandyMan on 05/08/2018 - 20:21

        Did the judge rule in your favour??

  • Ocker on 01/08/2018 - 19:32
    +1

    When it all boils down to reality the Council's fight such cases in bulk and will pursue a case, if for no other reason than to prevent a precedent. After all, it is only ratepayers money they are spending so their downside is limited (if anything)

  • Olokun on 01/08/2018 - 19:38
    +7

    https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safety-and-road-rules/road-r…

    When moving your car to another parking spot, you must move it out of the area or length of road controlled by the parking sign.

  • aroona on 01/08/2018 - 20:22

    If you live in the Banyule Council borders you could write to your local councillor to see what could be done. I did that once with the Gold Coast City Council and had a ticket wiped.

  • mbck on 01/08/2018 - 23:07
    -1

    I believe since you only moved your car to the opposite side of the same street, it's still under the same sign. If move to a different street, you'll be fine then.

  • whooah1979 on 02/08/2018 - 05:57

    How much is the fine?

    • Jaystea on 03/08/2018 - 12:06

      $81

      • trapper on 03/08/2018 - 14:40

        I do think you have case here, but for $81 I would just pay.

      • syousef on 03/08/2018 - 16:39
        +5

        I've spent more than that worth of time reading this. Pay it. Move on.

  • pegaxs on 02/08/2018 - 07:45
    +1

    Does no one read road rules? I’m pretty sure that the last time someone posted a very similar question to this it was pointed out that a parked vehicle has to be moved “out of the area” not just move it across the street and 3 cars down…

    • Illian on 02/08/2018 - 14:58
      -7

      Does it say that on the sign? No. In the theory part of your driving test? No. During your high school safe driving course (if you have one)? No. Maybe you should take it upon yourself to get information like this included in driving education if you feel so strongly about it.

      • GG57 on 02/08/2018 - 15:10
        +2

        Each and every road rule cannot feasibly be covered within a driving test, but it was most likely covered in any driving instruction courses.

        It also most likely did say on the sign that it was a "parking area", and the restrictions.
        This is covered on the VicRoads site: https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safety-and-road-rules/road-r…

        Make sure you check the parking signs and if you are in a timed parking area make note of the time you parked

      • HighAndDry on 02/08/2018 - 15:11
        +6

        What's with this entitlement that everything needs to be spoon-fed to people? People have this thing called the internet. Or they can pay for their ignorance. I find it works out pretty well.

        • pegaxs on 02/08/2018 - 18:51
          +1

          Exactly GG and H&D… The road rules are everywhere online. Can’t say they can’t be found, because each state has them listed. You can go into any police station and ask. Libraries have internet terminals you can search for the road rules there. So, ignorance is no defence.

          I would love to see road signs with the relevant legislation emblazoned on them. Stupidest idea ever. I would love to be the fly on a wall in a court room where the defendant used that as an excuse…

          “Didn’t say it on the sign… how was I supposed to know. It wasn’t on my driving test, how was I supposed to know? It wasn’t in any high school course I did, so how was I supposed to know?”

          Lol.

    • Jaystea on 03/08/2018 - 12:09

      I suppose my question is how out of the area "out of the area" is. I moved my car to another sign, even though it's only opposite side and a few spots down.

      • Piranha2004 on 04/08/2018 - 07:53
        +1

        Leave the street and take it for a spin around the block.

  • Duc88 on 02/08/2018 - 08:19

    Just a thought… if your tyres were marked, then if you wipe it off when you move it your time should restart?

    • GG57 on 02/08/2018 - 09:51

      Most councils now use electronic tracking of parked cars so you won't even know if the officers have paid a visit. Your rego is recorded and when they re-visit, they collect all the regos in the same area and take it from there.
      Where they actually mark tyres, I think they use a more adhesive marker these days, not the old school chalk (that could be removed easily).

      • Duc88 on 02/08/2018 - 12:49
        +1

        There goes my plan 😆
        On another note, what do they classify as an area? Around the corner? Next street? Or out of the suburb? If its recorded electronically, they wont know the position of the tyre at least to tell if it's been moved

        • HighAndDry on 02/08/2018 - 15:12

          Usually on the parking sign, or the parking ticket machine.

    • Free Parking on 03/08/2018 - 11:22
      +1

      I did this daily at my old workplace about 3 years ago. The inspectors would use normal chalk every two hours, and I would go outside and wipe it off just afterwards. I never received a ticket (luckily). I'm sure they've transitioned to an electronic system now though.

  • bettina44 on 02/08/2018 - 08:39

    I've gone to court before, most of the time people plead guilty with explanation and the case gets dismissed by the magistrate. No court costs, convictions or anything.

    The court is pretty reasonable and will give you the opportunity to seek advice from legal aid before entering a plead. In fact they encourage it. If you take the offer, the lawyer from legal aid is very helpful and will look at your case.

  • mhasan on 02/08/2018 - 10:01

    I was in similar situation and I was told by the council over the phone that the limit applies to the whole area, e.g. I cannot change the parking spot and park in the same area/street again. I must go out of the "area". That was the response on the phone from the council. However, once I spoke to the ticket inspector on a different occasion, he said as long as I have moved my car by a few inches it is ok.
    I guess it depends on the inspector to inspector. Some of them are employed on-call basis/casual basis and I think, I think, they try hard to impress the employer. What happened to you is not fair.

    • HeWhoKnows on 02/08/2018 - 13:43
      +1

      What the council said to you is absolutely correct.
      What the ticket inspector said was at his own discretion - not the law

    • pegaxs on 02/08/2018 - 19:06
      +3

      he said as long as I have moved my car by a few inches it is ok.

      Then the ticket inspector is wrong and has misinformed you. “A few inches” is neither off that section of road, nor is it out of the area. Really bad advice.

      • Kenb0 on 02/08/2018 - 19:40
        +1

        Agreed. Probably told him that just waiting for him to rely on that advice and then get to book him next time he does it, and get their quotas up. Then when challenged, it become a he said, she said situation and they'll just rely on the actual council/road rules and enforce the fine.

      • geoffs87 on 02/08/2018 - 22:45
        +3

        Inches… maybe the inspector meant you have to go to America and then come back and you’re cool.

  • Euphemistic on 02/08/2018 - 12:39
    +2

    I wonder how it would work if you left for about an hour and returned and parked on the opposite side of the road.

    • Spending2Much on 02/08/2018 - 13:09

      That's a good point….

    • HeWhoKnows on 02/08/2018 - 13:44

      Well it could have been a good point but OP has already amitted to council in a written complaint that he simply moved his car - BOOM! Blew it.

      • Euphemistic on 02/08/2018 - 15:27
        +1

        Yes, it is a bit of a moot point for the OP.

        So now I wonder how long does one need to leave for to restart the clock on the parking time?

        • Kenb0 on 02/08/2018 - 19:41

          Have an upvote for correct use of "moot" :)

    • Jaystea on 03/08/2018 - 12:10

      That's what I did though. I even moved it a few car spots down. So it was opposite + few car spots down.

      • Euphemistic on 03/08/2018 - 12:35
        +2

        except for the hour bit.

  • Slippage on 02/08/2018 - 13:22
    +3

    It really comes down to the wording of the law, but it is well known in my area that the time relates to the parking zone, not a single spot. It's done this way to stop people like yourself, occupying a spot all day.

  • HeWhoKnows on 02/08/2018 - 13:36

    I believe Slippage (above) is correct!
    It may not be an error at all as the 2 hour zone may well include both sides of the road.
    Hence you have not left the zone by simply moving your car to a different spot so the fine stands and council has replied accordingly.
    What you must say say is that you left the zone and came back some time later to end up parking across the road.
    Hence you were not continually parking in the zone for the stated time.
    You will be asked where you went and for how long.
    Simply for a coffee or sandwich down the road would suffice.
    Dont say that you simply moved your car across the road.

    But is it worth taking to court for a lousy $100 considering you are actually GUILTY of the offense?
    If the judge sees it that way you may end up with a much bigger fine.
    And dont forget that council will submit your complaint as evidence of what you actually admitted to doing.
    I would not press it at all.
    Just pay the fine

  • Melb69 on 02/08/2018 - 13:55

    As others have said. Need to move car out of area. Having said that did you remove the original tyre mark.

    • Jaystea on 03/08/2018 - 12:12

      Unfortunately not :( I didn't notice it the first time.

  • eggles01 on 02/08/2018 - 15:20
    -1

    your wheel was marked and was still showing the mark after you had moved to another position, do you think that the officer that originally marked your vehicle should have remembered the "exact" position of your car when originally marked,just think about how many vehicles they would have seen in that amount of time,next time rub the mark off the tyre before you leave your vehicle in another parking spot,

    • Euphemistic on 02/08/2018 - 15:28

      Hard to do when they are using electronic systems.

    • Jaystea on 03/08/2018 - 12:12

      If you read the OP, I said i noticed the mark then when i came back at 12. Not the first time.

  • Peace Horse on 02/08/2018 - 18:15
    +2

    https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safety-and-road-rules/road-r…

    When moving your car to another parking spot, you must move it out of the area or length of road controlled by the parking sign.

    • stratbargain on 02/08/2018 - 18:46
      -2

      http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr20…

      According to the link above it depends on if the sign was in the middle of the road or one side. If it's on the side and he moved his car to the other side it looks like his time should have reset.

      • pegaxs on 02/08/2018 - 19:27
        +1

        Unless a MS Paint diagram turns up stating otherwise, it appears that both sides of the road are signposted for 2 hours, leaving this as an “area” controlled for parking. Moving the car from one side to the other is not “leaving the area”.

  • lysp on 02/08/2018 - 20:31
    +3

    Do you have an android phone?

    If you do - check your google location history:

    https://www.google.com.au/maps/timeline

    See if that can provide evidence based on the timeline that you went back to your car to move it.

  • PAOK11 on 03/08/2018 - 09:55

    wow this is news to me. Why do people bother moving the car then, if there still going to get a fine.

    • Windows98 on 03/08/2018 - 14:37

      How does moving your car to a nearby empty spot help anyone?

      You're meant to leave the area and let other people park there.

      Find a spot further away

      • Gravy on 05/08/2018 - 07:55

        Because it gives another driver opportunity to occupy the space you just vacated and then you need to find another one.

  • tkdbboy on 03/08/2018 - 11:00

    If the ticket inspector was aware of you moving your car and trying to do what's right in what an everyday person would reasonably assume (move the car in between a new set of signs) then he's a total dick.

    More often than not, it's not worth your time and effort to fight the fine.
    Unfortunately Councils are fully aware of this and use it to their advantage as when it comes to parking fines: you're guilty until proven innocent.
    Even the photo they provide can be of Eneloops and not matter as the photo is not legally admissible.

  • Baa on 03/08/2018 - 11:03

    I had an issue in Perth a few years back where I parked in a very small and not very popular parking spot - with about 20 bays and only ever saw about 5 cars there.

    I came back one day with a parking fine, I then:
    - Took a photo showing my receipt was clearly displayed on my dashboard
    - Scanned my receipt which including terminal # and the last 4 digits of my CC on it
    - Emailed the council (City of Melville)

    I have been let off various other parking fines previously and thought this would be a no brainer, especially as it was a $50 fine in a very low usage car park.

    The council refused to cancel the fine and every 6 months or so would send me a letter telling me I need to pay it or go to court, each time I would call them and explain the situation and tell them I will not pay the fine. I haven't heard from them for 4 years so I guess they gave up.

    • tomsco on 03/08/2018 - 11:51

      What D-heads.

      When you spoke to them on the phone, did they remain obstinate? Or did they just sorta fob it off saying they will let the review team know?

      • Baa on 03/08/2018 - 13:00

        They wouldn't budge at all, it was the same person I spoke to each time.

  • infinite on 03/08/2018 - 11:26
    +1

    This is why you always bring a bottle of water and a rag in the boot of your car.

    You just wash the chalk off your wheel and then go park elsewhere on the same street.

    • jake-sun on 03/08/2018 - 12:51

      Or just pee on it :P

  • Jaystea on 03/08/2018 - 12:43

    Thanks guys, it looks like this one may be a goner :( Appreciate everyone's help though!

  • Windows98 on 03/08/2018 - 14:36

    How many threads like this do we need.

    Parking lots are based on the area. Leaving a spot and parking to a nearby one does not mean you've done the right thing..

    What exactly would be the point of time limits if everyone just did that?

    You're meant to finish what you're doing within the time or piss off somewhere further away so that someone else can come in and use the area like you just did.

    pay it and don't do it again.

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