[AMA] I'm a Law Graduate Turned Doctor

Dsquall on 05/06/2018 - 16:10
Last edited 05/06/2018 - 20:48 by 2 other users

Hey ozbargain,

I'm a medical doctor who used to do law (full disclosure: wasn't really a full fledged lawyer, just did a law degree but was never did the college stuff). Thought I'd do an AMA to help answer some questions for people looking to jump onto the med boat, or just looking for a sea-change in general. Other inquiries of a general nature are welcome too (but don't rely on any of my statements in any capacity =)).

Currently I'm still pretty junior in the medical field but am hoping to become a surgeon at some point.

Won't be answering any personal or specific questions just cause I want to keep my anonymity (and yes, there are enough ex-law people that do medicine to make it difficult to identify who I am).

Cheers!

Introduce Yourself

closed Comments

  • [Deactivated] on 05/06/2018 - 16:24
    +19

    Back to when you were a lawyer, did you put your hands in your own pockets when it was cold?

    • Dsquall on 05/06/2018 - 17:17
      -1

      Sure.

      • Scrooge McDuck on 06/06/2018 - 10:50

        Ever put your hands in other people's pockets?

    • Almost Banned on 05/06/2018 - 20:00
      +3

      In spite of the title OP has already said that he/she was never actually a lawyer.
      They studied law, and presumably graduated, but never practiced or held a practicing certificate. So not a lawyer.
      Given this it makes me wonder if they are actually a doctor. If completing the degree makes you a lawyer, perhaps they have just completed a medical degree - which to the OP makes them a doctor.

      • Dsquall on 05/06/2018 - 21:17
        +2

        Thanks for clarifying this point, though if you read my initial statement I have already qualified that. I do apologise for not changing the title to reflect my status but now that has been amended.

        With regards to my status as a Doctor, fortunately I do have the Dr in front of my name these days and am practicing at a tertiary hospital.

      • Masterpupil on 06/06/2018 - 12:02

        I think this depends on where you are. For example in Victoria once you are admitted you are a barrister and solicitor.
        I suspect completion of a law degree in fact makes you a lawyer.

        • ruddiger7 on 06/06/2018 - 13:03

          I think you do PLT course and you are admitted to the courts as a solicitor. To become a barrister you do the bar or whatever its called I think. I would call someone a lawyer if they practised law, so probably someone who is admitted and holds a job as a legal officer, solicitor or whatever. Not just someone with a law degree.

        • Almost Banned on 06/06/2018 - 15:53
          +6

          Completion of a law degree makes you a law grad.
          Admission to practice makes you a lawyer.

        • Masterpupil on 06/06/2018 - 23:30

          @ruddiger7: I think this depends on the state. Certainly to practice as a barrister you have to complete the bar reader's course and then you are admitted to the bar, but for reasons I cannot recall everyone that completes the PLT (in Victoria) and is then admitted to the supreme Court is admitted as a barrister and solicitor, even though there is an extra step to in fact practice as a barrister.
          My recollection is that this does not necessarily apply to the other states where you would be admitted as simply a solicitor.

        • Charybdia on 06/06/2018 - 23:37
          +4

          Law degree = law graduate
          PLT + admission = lawyer
          Holding a practising certificate = solicitor

        • Masterpupil on 08/06/2018 - 11:11

          @Charybdia:
          For anyone that is interested
          http://thekglawyerblog.com/ptblog/articles/solicitor-barrist…

  • Yummy on 05/06/2018 - 16:29
    +2

    What's up, Doc?

    • Dsquall on 05/06/2018 - 17:17
      +1

      Was meant to be studying but am now procrastinating!

  • Heracles26 on 05/06/2018 - 16:33

    Do you believe in freedom of the will?
    Do you believe in god?

    • Dsquall on 05/06/2018 - 17:19
      +1

      Complex questions, I can debate hours over this but I've come to a point in life where I'm simply apathetic. The existence of fate/will/god will never be proved/disproved by myself so I'll just let that topic lie. Enough pragmatic stuff in the world to divide people, don't need anything else to create divides.

      • resisting the urge on 05/06/2018 - 17:56

        Don't worry.

        It matters not matter what individuals believe. It is a form of intellectual entrapment.

        Most of us are bound to be wrong about a great many things, for there is almost always a better explanation down the track to what we know now about a particular ecclesiastical view, or a scientific theory.

        But whether you be on the road to knowledge or enlightenment, or both, attempting to deny well-supported knowledge held by experts is far more than folly, as people know well enough. It is why they do it.

  • kurnugi on 05/06/2018 - 16:45

    Interesting that you picked surgery as a specialty pathway. Aren't you worried about being more vulnerable to malpractice claims/personal injury lawsuits as a surgeon?

    • [Deactivated] on 05/06/2018 - 16:53
      +3

      I think $2million a year will compensate from any worries he might have.

    • Dsquall on 05/06/2018 - 17:14
      +5

      100k p.a. insurance premiums. But yes, malpractice claims can wreck your career pretty fast.

      Either way though, it's the only career that I find exciting/fulfilling so I'll put the doubts and the rest of it on the back-burner for now and just keep my head down and do a good job.

      As to $2million, probably not, you have to work really hard for that kind of $ and most likely be in a very competitive sub-specialty. If you were to draw an analogy, it would be like studying B Comm and becoming a CEO/CFO/COO or some other high tier exec. I think the media likes to hyperbolise the issue of doctor's salary because it's such a draw card for the general public (the perception of altruism contrasted against the inherent nature of greed that makes up the human condition will always be click bait).

  • s1n1ster on 05/06/2018 - 16:52
    +1

    Did you enter via GAMSAT, if so how hard was the exam and what was your score?

    • Dsquall on 05/06/2018 - 17:21

      I did undergraduate x2. Never sat the GAMSAT but have many friends that have. Mixed responses (don't really know if it's an ego thing). Some say it's the hardest thing in the world, some say it's a walk in the park. Pretty sure you need some incredible marks these days to even get an interview. But if med is what you want, get ready for life long exams (with really shitty pass rates).

      • Icant Isimplycant on 07/06/2018 - 12:33

        I'm in pre-med but local to me only have universities that offer medicine with GAMSAT only. Does doing 2x undergrad allow you to "skip" GAMSAT?

  • shaybisc on 05/06/2018 - 16:52
    +1

    Did you try for undergraduate entry into medical school?

    • Dsquall on 05/06/2018 - 17:22

      Yep, didn't get in the first time. So I did a law degree (yeah I know, doesn't make sense but hey, I was 17).

      • Scrooge McDuck on 06/06/2018 - 10:48
        -2

        Are your parents and mother in law proud of you?

        • AddNinja on 06/06/2018 - 14:50
          +1

          You ok Scrooge? This topic appears to have piqued you…

        • Scrooge McDuck on 06/06/2018 - 15:09
          +1

          @AddNinja:

          My parental units have never been appreciative, it's nothing new.

        • Dsquall on 06/06/2018 - 21:07
          +1

          Mmm, now that I'm done I think they are. Was difficult at the 8-9 years in uni mark.

  • ego22 on 05/06/2018 - 17:06
    +1

    On average how many old ladies a month try to get you to date their daughter?

    • oscargamer on 05/06/2018 - 17:20

      On average how many old ladies a month try to date you?

      • Dsquall on 05/06/2018 - 17:23

        Misread the question: Not many actually.

      • ego22 on 05/06/2018 - 18:07

        None. I am but a humble painter

  • diazepam on 05/06/2018 - 17:29

    have you ever considered medical law? or at least consider going into medical administration (with the background of law)?

    • Dsquall on 05/06/2018 - 17:32
      +1

      Nah, that's probably the sensible and responsible thing to do given I'm dual specialised but I went into medicine because I couldn't stand administrative processes. I think most of the people that do the switch feel much the same unless they start off wanting to 'change the system' or something else abstract like that (but more power to you if that's what you want to do, we really do need more good administrators).

      • Justtip on 06/06/2018 - 14:01
        +4

        Not to burst your bubble but medicine is not going to offer you a reprieve from administrative processes.. If anything the two fields are remarkably similar in that regard, albeit I think medicine has a less adversarial nature than law.
        Source: a doctor in a family of lawyers

        • Dsquall on 06/06/2018 - 17:54
          +1

          Thanks for the heads up!

          Not after complete reprieve, I don't think you'll get that anywhere these days. I just want little breaks from the paper work.

  • diazepam on 05/06/2018 - 17:31

    second question: would your recommend a current MD student to pursue a JD after? (It really should have been the other way around i know… #regrets)

    why/why not?

    • Dsquall on 05/06/2018 - 17:38
      +1

      The most cliche line in the book probably works best: follow your dreams.

      I think that any recommendation I give is entirely subjective and is shaped by and my perceptions and thus, you should pretty much just ignore. But, if you were to force me to give advice, I'd say take the road that won't bring you any regrets when you're 90 and about to kick it.

      Dunno if this added comment helps but in all honesty, I think by doing something I hated the first time made me appreciate doing medicine a lot more. If I had got in straight away, I don't think I'd have the same level of tenacity, academic maturity and resilience as I do now.

      As to why not. If you're not genuinely passionate about it and can't convince yourself entirely you're making the switch for the right reasons, I think that's a good one. The grass will always be greener, so don't do it because of some perception that you'll make a killing/have an easier life if you did law/med.

      • fredblogs on 07/06/2018 - 20:22

        Why didn't you quit law earlier?

  • Munki on 05/06/2018 - 17:34
    +10

    But why male models?

    • Dsquall on 05/06/2018 - 17:43
      -1

      Don't understand the reference =(. But I don't think I've got the proportions to model.

  • chumlee on 05/06/2018 - 18:11
    -4

    Will you be sharing breast implant before/after photos with us?

    • ozbaragan on 06/06/2018 - 08:26

      stereotyping!!!

    • azorax on 06/06/2018 - 08:27

      1. They never claimed to be a lawyer.

      2. Suddenly using a stereotype and calling a complete random on the internet an Asian likr other ethnicities always choose their passion in university. Everyone has the problem of finding their passion in life as well as expectations placed upon them by their parents

      • smuggler on 06/06/2018 - 19:00
        -3

        They never claimed to be a lawyer

        1. He changed the title of the thread before you saw it. It said lawyer.

        2. When you have lived in Sydney and went to school with asians, it's so bloody easy to stereotype.

        I was right. So just send me a cookie in the mail.

  • Godric on 05/06/2018 - 18:41

    Are your parents in either profession & is that why you are where you are or did you decide your self that's what you want to do?

    • smuggler on 05/06/2018 - 18:42
      -4

      he's asian

      • Dsquall on 05/06/2018 - 19:18
        +5

        I am of asian background but my parents weren't supportive of the switch to medicine.

        • varunynr on 06/06/2018 - 09:03
          +3

          Mate be proud of your choices. Don't over explain to strugglers or smugglers of the world who stereo type and hold unconditional bias against everyone including Asians.

          Cheers

        • smuggler on 06/06/2018 - 18:58
          -2

          @varunynr:

          But I was right

        • smuggler on 06/06/2018 - 19:01
          -2

          Your parents will understand when you bring home the cash.

          My Chinese mate's parents only care about money, more money then the house, wife and kids.

        • BestofOZB on 07/06/2018 - 05:13
          +1

          @smuggler: Stop being a hopeless racist jealous pr*ck on the internet!

        • smuggler on 07/06/2018 - 22:36
          +1

          @BestofOZB:

          nah

    • Dsquall on 05/06/2018 - 19:18
      +1

      Nope, neither of my parents are doctors (my grandparents were though). I wanted to do medicine, specifically surgery, because I liked participating in work which showed immediate resolution of problems. I also like being able to go out saying I did what I thought was right and helped a little bit while I was here.

      • eXo on 06/06/2018 - 16:02
        +2

        "I liked participating in work which showed immediate resolution of problems"

        Ohh look, its bleeding.. stitch stitch.. no more bleeding.

        Mission Accomplished

        (In a George W Bush way) :-P

        GG thou, follow your dreams and not opinions.

        • Dsquall on 06/06/2018 - 17:55

          Pretty much, I'm a pretty simple person =)

      • diazepam on 07/06/2018 - 01:36

        what type of surgery are you planning to specialise in? do you have your career mapped out yet?

  • CzarZ on 05/06/2018 - 19:20

    Do you ever have regrets about the path you took, and what particularly might they be?

    • Dsquall on 05/06/2018 - 20:58
      +1

      Here and there I do have some regrets but not in general. Would do it all the same again.

      My biggest regrets are probably social ones that most people have, not keeping in touch with friends, not taking time for family those sorta things etc.

      • Scrooge McDuck on 06/06/2018 - 11:07
        +3

        It's never too late to make amends. :)

  • original15 on 05/06/2018 - 19:38
    +6

    How’s the HECs looking?

    • Dsquall on 05/06/2018 - 20:56
      +15

      Like a horror movie.

  • [Deactivated] on 05/06/2018 - 19:45

    What proportion of doctors/surgeons develop a known life shortening vice like smoking?

    • Dsquall on 05/06/2018 - 20:59
      +1

      None of the surgeons I know smoke, very few doctors that I know do smoke but I guess it is a taboo, especially in our industry, so probably some of them do.

      • Scrooge McDuck on 06/06/2018 - 11:10

        What are the work hours like?

        Is stimulant use prevalent?

        • Dsquall on 06/06/2018 - 17:57
          +1

          Depends on the rotation, surgical rotations are pretty rough but nothing as bad as what my investment banking friends have. For IB it gets better with time for medicine it probably gets worse.

          Stimulant use is quite prevalent.

        • mini2 on 07/06/2018 - 12:11

          @Dsquall:

          Legal, self prescribed ones (do they even exist?) or illegal stimulants?

        • DKC on 07/06/2018 - 21:23

          @mini2: The most common stimulant is coffee. That is VERY widely used in the hospital.

  • Chik5555 on 05/06/2018 - 20:22
    +1

    Was medicine harder than law?

    What are the people like in the medical profession compared to legal?

    • Dsquall on 05/06/2018 - 21:04
      +1

      Yes and no.

      I did a really shit job studying law so it was relatively easy to do that.

      I've worked a lot harder in medicine and come out with a lot more, it wasn't easy to get to this point though and I don't think moving forward will be any easier.

      People will be people but the stereotypes do exist. In law you will have the uber career driven, materialistic, high achieving, top tier grads. In med you will have the bleeding hearts that are out to save everyone from themselves. However, these stereotypes aren't the norm, usually everyone is wildly different just like in society. I will say though, I think med attracts personality disorders (OCD and borderline, maybe some others, mental health was never my forte).

      • Scrooge McDuck on 06/06/2018 - 11:12

        I will say though, I think med attracts personality disorders (OCD and borderline, maybe some others, mental health was never my forte).

        What makes you think that?

        • Dsquall on 06/06/2018 - 17:58
          +1

          Personal experience. Also I think the role itself attracts certain people. The immediate trust people place in you as well as 'superiority' complex some people feel when they become doctors.

        • DKC on 07/06/2018 - 21:25

          To an extent you would want a surgeon to be mildly OCD. You'll want them to get the operation done just right, get the sutures as perfect as possible etc. You wouldn't want one to wack in a few sutures half heartedly and leave it at that.

  • shaybisc on 05/06/2018 - 20:26

    Do you have good fine motor skills?

    "Now an innovative collaboration between researchers, payers and weight-loss surgeons, the Michigan Bariatric Surgery Collaborative, has addressed that-which-could-not-be-named. And their findings have confirmed what patients have long suspected and trainees have long known – the dexterity of a surgeon’s hands can account for much of the differences in how well patients do."

    https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/31/a-vital-measure-yo…

    • Dsquall on 05/06/2018 - 21:13

      Thanks for referring me to that article, that's an interesting read.

      I'd like to say I am quite dexterous.

      Unfortunately, how good of an operator you are really won't impact on whether or not you get into a surgical program (for the most part, unless you have parkinsons or something). You don't really get a chance to hone your fine motor skills until you're on a program and even then, some improve more than others. It might impact on your career later on (law suites and what not).

      Also, I think dexterity impacts more on certain procedures than others. It's much like changing a sink tap vs. building a house, with the former joe-blow will probably do just as well as a master craftsman. In the latter, joe-blow will probably wreck the whole thing. In bariatric surgery you deal with an interesting patient group, you have these BMI 40+ individuals with significant amounts of abdominal fat and you need to insuflate (fill with CO2 so you can get instruments in through laparoscopic holes) so you're working in a very confined area. Also, they usually have co-morbidities that make wound healing in this population really sub-optimal and anastamotic failure is really high as well and I guess in that context ability and experience are probably what will distinguish between a belly full of bile or a successful procedure.

      In general though, I think it's a multi-layered question (whether you need fine motor skills) that depends on the procedure and where you are career wise.

      p.s. unfortunately most daily work is changing taps.

  • sim777 on 05/06/2018 - 20:35

    What's the process of becoming a human specialist surgeon - do you become a general surgeon first before specialising in a more specific area of the body? (ie. soft tissue, neurosurgery, heart and lung….)

    • Dsquall on 05/06/2018 - 21:15
      +1

      No so general surgeons specialise in: colorectal, breast & endocrine, acute surgery, hepatobiliary, upper GI, burns. Everything else is a sub-specialty that has its own college you need to apply for.

      • Scrooge McDuck on 06/06/2018 - 11:30
        +1

        What are your favourite components of human anatomy and physiology based on elegance and then on disease remediation?

        • Dsquall on 06/06/2018 - 18:05
          +2

          I'm surgically inclined so this is probably more surgical than medical:

          Favourite component would probably be the liver, multiple functions (gets rid of toxins, makes a bit of blood, stores and makes glucose, stores iron, stores fat, makes blood clotting factors, makes other hormones, helps absorb nutrients), repairs itself really well, has it's own unique blood supply, can take a real beating, transplantable with just 1/3.

          Disease remediation, the hip. If you get arthritis in the hip, life sucks, can't walk, chronic pain etc. Get a new hip, pain is gone, can walk, life is good. (I donned my ortho hat to type out those 2 sentences).

  • Georgevic on 06/06/2018 - 01:42

    Isn't it pretty normal to do an undergrad degree then do med?

    • Dsquall on 06/06/2018 - 11:03
      +1

      Yep. Usually in a discipline more closely related to med.

  • azorax on 06/06/2018 - 08:31

    :D

    I'm roughly in the same boat! But I actually am a lawyer since I got myself admitted, but don't hold a current practising certificate.

    Currently doing a Bachelor of Computer Science! Did you ever feel out of place when all the other undergrads are 18 yr olds?

    Did you have expectations put upon yourself like 'this is my 2nd degree, I should be better and should do better than everyone else'.

    Any tips I can give to my biomed friends? Some looking to be doctors, some researchers.

    • Dsquall on 06/06/2018 - 17:17

      Feeling out of place because of age. Sorta at times but there are a lot of postgrads too.

      And definitely yes, feel as if I should perform better (but that doesn't always turn out to be the case).

      For biomed friends looking to be doctors. Ask them if they really want to do it, it's a pretty rough road. The pay is good but if you like the highly competitive specialties, it's really hard to get in. That said, if they're passionate about it, go for it.

  • PLA74 on 06/06/2018 - 09:38

    Hi OP,

    I'm in a similar situation as you were once…sort of. Did my under grad study in Computer Science/IT and have been working in the medical IT industry since. Recently started to study and prepare for GAMSAT to hopefully get a good enough score for med school entry.

    I can see that you did two undergrad degrees one in law and the other one in science/similar? How did you get into med school without GAMSAT if I may ask please? I know the other option is for high school student to get an ATAR score and sit UMAT…

    For someone in my situation, I'm trying to see what sort of options (quickest options for enrollment into med school if any) there are?

    Thanks!

    • [Deactivated] on 06/06/2018 - 12:11

      You can get in with a GPA and a UMAT.

    • Dsquall on 06/06/2018 - 17:18

      Yep, someones beat me to it. You should do both the GAMSAT and UMAT and try to get in anywhere if you're serious about it.

      • PLA74 on 08/06/2018 - 18:39

        Thanks! Planning on sitting the GAMSAT in Sept 2018. Hopefully I can do well in it and get a decent score to get called for admission interviews.

  • shaybisc on 06/06/2018 - 10:20
    +1

    It seems odd to me that most of the people who do the best at high school exams- 100 ATAR- end up doing medicine. Is there an unusually high correlation between 100 ATAR and compassion/empathy? I wouldn't have thought so.

    • Scrooge McDuck on 06/06/2018 - 11:21
      -1

      I have plenty of empathy, too much at times, but my crocodile in English precluded me from studying medicine.

      Thankfully, I was accepted straight into the courses I actually wanted to study most.

    • [Deactivated] on 06/06/2018 - 15:19

      You can't get 100 ATAR, the highest you can get is 99.95.

      Currently, most undergraduate medical schools in Australia assess applicants based on their ATAR, UMAT and MMI interview performances, not just an '100 ATAR'.

      You're right, looking at the ATAR alone will not tell you the amount of empathy a student has. However, it is a good indicator of which students are intelligent, hard working and diligent throughout their school years. It seems odd to me that you don't want these qualities to be in your future doctor.

      • shaybisc on 06/06/2018 - 16:22

        Is that right. I didn't know. I got the 100 ATAR idea from the AMA.

        "You can maximise your chances of entry by getting a good ATAR, but also keep in mind that an ATAR of 100 does not mean you will automatically gain a place."

        https://ama.com.au/careers/becoming-a-doctor

        • May4th on 06/06/2018 - 19:10

          UAI had 100. since they rebadged it as ATAR the max you could get is 99.95

    • Dsquall on 06/06/2018 - 17:23
      +5

      While compassion and empathy definitely do have a role in medicine, I think the number 1 core attribute is still intelligence and learning ability. I'd much rather have a doctor with great ability rather than one that can be my best friend within 30 minutes. That's just me though (and I guess it depends on the sub-specialty).

    • DKC on 07/06/2018 - 21:28

      There are plenty of professions suitable for people with great compassion - doctors, curses, psychologists, allied health, nuns, etc.

  • DardyMate on 06/06/2018 - 10:24

    Did you have any batch mates who did RN prior to doing medicine?
    Also, if you don't mind, which university are you studying at?

    • Dsquall on 06/06/2018 - 17:25

      Not at University anymore, I knew a few RNs that studied medicine at the same time. Some of the RNs I work with right now are studying medicine.

  • Scrooge McDuck on 06/06/2018 - 11:22
    +1

    What is the best non-permanent non-barrier contraceptive for males?

    • shaybisc on 06/06/2018 - 11:30
      +10

      Homosexuality

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