Car Accident Advice - Who's wrong?

18 on 27/05/2018 - 20:27
Last edited 27/05/2018 - 20:28

So I had a car accident yesterday and was wondering if I could get some insight.

So a bit of context. This is a road with no lane markings, but it is EASILY wide enough for two cars. If you go to this road at anytime of the day, there is ALWAYS cars in both lanes despite no lane markings. Even the satellite view shows 2 cars driving side by side at this intersection.

From my point of view, I was sticking to the left side of this road while the other car was on the right side of the road. I indicate early to turn left, and proceed to do so. At the last second, he starts indicating left and then turns as well (but this is kinda hard to prove! Should've invested in a dashcam). Thus, we crash into each other.

This is the main thing, why would you stick to the MOST right side of the lane if you are turning left?!?! To me, it seems like he changed his mind last second and maybe if he indicated earlier, I would've seen him and given way. I personally believe he should've checked his mirrors or done a shoulder check before turning left.

The damages are minor but it is clear from the dents, that at the time of accident, my car was in front of his but only by like 30cm or so.

Here is a quick sketch of the incident:
https://imgur.com/a/sBKgVYb

Thanks in advance :)

Poll Options

  • 42
    I am at fault
  • 225
    Other car is at fault
Automotive

Comments

  • foxinsox8 on 28/05/2018 - 14:12
    +3

    I don't understand how every other direction at the intersection you have drawn are marked as being two lane roads but the one you are taking isn't. Is that accurate. If there were no line markings you are at fault for passing or attempting to pass (in part) the vehicle ahead of you on a single lane road.

    • 18 on 29/05/2018 - 03:43

      Yes that is accurate. That is what makes this topic very confusing! I do not understand why the council don't implement lines anyways. It would be so much easier for everyone!

  • Squeebz on 28/05/2018 - 14:14
    +1

    A quick google of NSW road rules can bring up so much information to help you.

    Straight from RMS: http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety-rules/road-rules/inte…

    Left turn -

    You must make a left turn from the left side of the road. When turning:
    Signal left
    Move close to the left side of the road
    Keep to the left side of the road you are entering
    Use a slip lane where one is provided.
    When driving on a multi-lane road, you must turn left from the left lane, or from a lane with a pavement arrow pointing left.

    Right-

    When turning right:
    Signal right.
    Move as close to the centre line as possible.
    When turning on a multi-lane road, turn right from the right lane or a lane with an arrow pointing right. Turn right when it is safe.
    In marked lanes, you must stay in the same lane as you go from one road to another.

    Going from the info that you've provided, the other party is in the wrong. They weren't indicating left, they were on the right side of the lane. All signs point to turning right.
    If the damage is on the side or rear of your car, then they are definitely in the wrong.

    Post the satellite view of the intersection. It's interesting that your lane was the only one with a single lane and every other one had 2.

    • 18 on 29/05/2018 - 03:46
      +1

      alpha street turning into patrick street: https://imgur.com/a/CcTKhag

    • stumo on 29/05/2018 - 20:25

      they were on the right side of the lane

      Read what you quoted, it doesn't say "left side of the lane" it says "left side of the road" thats a big difference.

  • haimrevolution on 28/05/2018 - 14:43
    -1

    This is a tricky one however think of it this way. Had you been going straight and this dim witted right lane left turning moron turned across you then he was definitely at fault. So why would it be any different if you slow and cautiously go to turn left. Hence I will disagree with all others who say it’s your fault. It is clearly his fault

    • picket23 on 29/05/2018 - 14:43
      +2

      What right lane? It's been stated multiple times that there's no markings to indicate that this is a two lane section of road. There's plenty of sections of road near me wide enough for two cars but I would never overtake on someone's left unless they were stationary and indicating right.
      I don't know what the road authorities intend for this stretch of road but if it is to have two lanes of traffic then it needs to be marked as such. I empathise with the OP and probably would do the same thing as him if that's how everyone else drives on that road section and I was familiar with it. However, if the other driver isn't familiar with the road being used in this manner, they would not be expecting anyone to be coming up there left side as there is no lane marked. The only time I overtake on someone's left in a single lane is when they are stationary, indicating right and there's plenty of room. So to me it depends on whether or not this is intended to be a two lane road or not. Will be interested to see how this turns out.

  • myusername on 28/05/2018 - 14:48
    +2

    i'd say your fault only based on the fact you can't draw a decent diagram so therefore shouldn't be behind the wheel

    interweblogic

    • 18 on 29/05/2018 - 03:47
      +6

      be right back, gonna hire a graphic designer

      • h4zey on 30/05/2018 - 09:50

        i can recommend some if you still have trouble looking for one :)

  • cjbowden on 28/05/2018 - 16:06
    +4

    Your answer lies BEFORE the accident happened. A lane without lane markings is a single lane (even if more than two cars can fit). The only time you are allowed to pass a car on the left hand side (when on a single lane road) is if they have their right hand indicator on (signalling they intend to turn right).

    If the other car was initially ahead of you (say 50m back) and you came up on the left hand side, then you will be at fault. It is reasonable that the other driver would not expect someone to pass them on the left side.

    If however you were originally in front of the other driver and he overtook you (presumably on the your right side), then they would be at fault.

    • 18 on 29/05/2018 - 03:48

      Referring to the street view, you can see another car undertaking despite no lane markings. The road is easily wide enough for two cars. https://imgur.com/a/EbX75XK

      • picket23 on 29/05/2018 - 14:47
        +3

        "Other cars do it" and "it's wide enough" don't make a two lane road. Line markings do. However as I stated above if that's how everyone uses this road section then I probably would to, so understand where you're coming from, good luck.

  • pegaxs on 29/05/2018 - 09:38
    +9

    I looked at the photos OP posted and reviewed the area on Google Maps, and to me it looks like a single lane with a parking area. The "No Stopping" sign posted indicates that parking along that section would also be ok. It was not designed to be a dual lane road, no matter how wide it is. The road appears to have been designed to allow for the passing of vehicles that are stopped and turning right, not so race cars drivers could do dive down the inside overtaking maneuvers.

    NSW Road Rules 2014, Part 11, Div. 3, Rule 141 says;

    141: No overtaking etc to the left of a vehicle
    (1) A driver must not overtake a vehicle to the left of the vehicle unless:
    (a) the driver is driving on a multi-lane road and the vehicle can be safely overtaken in a marked lane to the left of the vehicle, or
    (b) the vehicle is turning right, or making a U-turn from the centre of the road, and is giving a right change of direction signal and it is safe to overtake to the left of the vehicle, or
    (c) the vehicle is stationary and it is safe to overtake to the left of the vehicle.

    Was the other car stationary? Was it turning/indicating right? Was it a multi-lane road?

    Any dash cam footage? How do we know your version of events and description of the area is reliable? Were there cars parked there? How far back was this incident initiated from the corner?

    The issues I have with the other car is that, from your account, they were not adhering to some other road rules. 129: Keeping to the far left side of the road, 146: Driving within a line of traffic. Subrule (2), or 148: Giving way when moving from one line of traffic to another line of traffic, Subrule (2).

    My opinion is that OP is in the wrong. On single lane roads (regardless of how wide it is.) you are not allowed to overtake on the left side of vehicles. This exists for exactly the reason OP has come in contact with. If OP wasn't so impatient and waited in line behind the other driver and didn't overtake on their left side, then this could have been avoided. Just because you jammed your car down the left and got in front by "30cm" indicates OP didn't give way. Just because OP "got there first" does not make them right.

    But that being said, The other driver is just as equally to blame. While they are entitled to not be overtaken down the left side, they have a legal obligation to travel within the lane they are driving in, marked or not and to give way if they have to move from one "line of traffic" to another. There would have been a reasonable expectation that the other car was going straight ahead or turning right given their position on the line of traffic.

    So, to me, you both acted like turkeys. OP for impatient overtaking down the wrong side, and the other car for not giving way crossing lines of traffic.

    • ipiok on 30/05/2018 - 11:46
      +1

      exactly.

    • wannagrababargain on 30/05/2018 - 20:55
      +1

      Thread should be closed on this comment.

    • abb on 31/05/2018 - 11:52

      The "No Stopping" sign posted indicates that parking along that section would also be ok.

      Huh? You can't park in a No Stopping zone. Stopping is a necessary (but not sufficient) condition for parking…

      • pegaxs on 31/05/2018 - 12:09

        The “no stopping” sign indicates that between it and the roundabout is not for parking. Between the sign and the intersection, parking is allowed, provided that a car is not parked across a driveway or within the specified amount back from the intersection…

        Edit: Google Street View image for clarity…

  • Broke-Ken on 29/05/2018 - 10:20
    +7

    This is just my opinion, and I could be wrong.

    I believe that the Council or who ever manages that road is at fault for causing this ambiguity.

    Looking back on street view, there are definite lines for 2 lanes back in 2007.(while one lane was closed off for the construction of the new building.)

    By 2009, the line markings are just barely visible. after 2009, those line marking are completely gone.

    So as it stands, it's now a single lane road(even though wide enough for 2), but people are still in the habit of using it as a 2 lane road, people like OP see this and follow suit.

    Council need to make it more clear of which it is, either by painting new lines for 2 lanes, or adding a sign saying it's single lane.

    It's a tough one, but if I had to choose between the 2 vehicles as to who is at fault, then it would be OP's unfortunately.

  • ntt on 29/05/2018 - 13:45

    based on the diagram, OP was wrong. The red car ahead of you and both of you should NOT drive parallel, one should give up/give way to another.

    BUT that is in theory, in real life without dash cam or witness, both parties are wrong in insurance company eyes. Anyway good luck with any outcome :)

  • ChatCPT on 29/05/2018 - 14:01

    OzAdvice does it again!

  • elgrande on 29/05/2018 - 14:09
    +3

    No lane markings = single lane in the eyes of the insurance agency.

  • trapper on 29/05/2018 - 14:16

    Firstly line markings aren't actually required, as long as you were established there in a virtual 'lane' and not crossing any white lines then there are two lanes.

    Not your fault.

    If anyone wants to argue it is only one lane, then which one is the 'real' one? the one on the left or the one on the right? Who knows, that's why we treat it as two lanes. You can't just blindly turn and ram people because you think their lane isn't 'the real one'.

    • p3nf0ld on 29/05/2018 - 18:29
      +1

      But you can't just establish a virtual 'lane' where you want. The OP was driving behind the other car and to the left ( probably in the other driver's blindspot ). Imagine driving down the road and you indicate to turn left and turn - then a car comes out of nowhere and runs into you.

      Having said that - the image of the street does look like two lanes and the set of lights actually has a light for turning left and driving straight. It definitely does look like two lanes exist.

      https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-33.7715316,150.9062415,3a,7…

      • trapper on 30/05/2018 - 14:54
        +2

        If you are in the correct location to make a left turn then there is no space on your left for another car.

        And even if you were in correct location you still can't just blindly turn left anytime without looking. There could be a cyclist there for example.

        You don't look, you turn, you hit someone = your fault.

    • mister2 on 29/05/2018 - 18:39
      +3

      There is no left one or right one to be real.

      The other car was on the right side of a single lane.

      OP is 100% at fault.

      • pegaxs on 30/05/2018 - 23:25
        +1

        @mister2; Bingo. OP also overtook the car on its left hand side. Also something that is clearly described in the Australian Road Rules as a “don’t do”

        Considering the “no stopping” sign further up the street, I would say that that part of the street is not a lane, but rather a parking area if so required.

        OP overtook the car on its left while using a parking area as a lane.

        OP is 100% at fault.

  • xuqi on 29/05/2018 - 14:22

    Do you have insurance? If so, then please quiting wasting our precious time and let them sort it!

    Here, we only care to comment on those without insurance involved in an accident.

  • Piranha2004 on 29/05/2018 - 14:48

    Who as in front? You say you were but the pic shows that they were. Either way, the other person is at fault as they turned from the right and were travelling two a breast where theoretically should be one car in the lane.

  • quog on 29/05/2018 - 15:56
    +1

    So the rule about moving as close to the left to turn left no longer exists? Fantastic!

  • centrelink on 29/05/2018 - 16:12

    Hey guys, I play monopoly and have not fully read the rules.. Who wants to play?

  • Herbse on 29/05/2018 - 16:15
    +1

    I've always beleived a wide lane is a single lane. People who drive side by side are in the wrong. Meaning you're at fault for not being behind him.

    But he didn't stick to the left side of the road. So this will be interesting

    • pegaxs on 30/05/2018 - 23:38

      So, technically, what you’re saying is, any road that has room for parking along it, when no cars are parked there, is a two lane road?

      You need to re-read road rule 141, subrule 1(a)…

      141: No overtaking etc to the left of a vehicle
      (1) A driver must not overtake a vehicle to the left of the vehicle unless:
      (a) the driver is driving on a multi-lane road and the vehicle can be safely overtaken in a marked lane to the left of the vehicle

      Lanes are not marked in this case. OP can not overtake to the left of that car. It is not a two lane road, because parking is allowed on that section of road. Just because no cars were parked there, does not make it a free for all lane.

      OP is 100% at fault.

  • ATangk on 29/05/2018 - 16:30
    +3

    OP you really need to get a grip on the situation. Try posting this image which is the street view of the situation. https://imgur.com/a/FYW4M9x

    The traffic lights here have a left turn arrow and a straight, which implies that it was designed for 2 lane traffic. Use this link in addition to the one you've been spreading everywhere.

  • sillyguy on 29/05/2018 - 16:59
    +1

    This is why I always drive in the middle of the unmarked aka single lane road regardless how wide it is, and equip dashcams front back and side!

  • stingyashell on 29/05/2018 - 17:59

    I'm pretty sure you're at fault of coz this could base on state's law. it doesnt matter if two car could fit some roads are designed for large truck swept path. No linemarking mean one lane. Think of it this way, if you came out of a driveway and there's 2 lane, the approaching car is on the further lane side, most people would take the left side safely and it is fine. but if that dude decided to change lane hit you (not from behind or with barrier line or unbroken lane line or any line that indicate no changing lane!) it would be your fault. But people would just do it anyway coz it almost impossible to go in peak hr traffic.

  • Sergeant Salami on 29/05/2018 - 19:02
    +1

    Here is the street view: click here

  • Yummy on 29/05/2018 - 20:10
    -1

    Hey OP, just curious. Can you describe the other driver pls?

  • dpr on 29/05/2018 - 20:16
    +2

    I drive down this street all the time and it is a one lane road. I don't think I've ever seen two lanes formed here. I usually drive in the middle of the road and see others do the same. I think the OP is an impatient driver and deep down he knows he's at fault. My advice is let the insurance companies sort it out.

  • akashra on 29/05/2018 - 20:55

    It's a single lane road. You shouldn't have been overtaking period.

    • berry580 on 29/05/2018 - 23:56
      -1

      You can easily argue the other party was trying to overtake OP

  • G3ck0 on 29/05/2018 - 23:52
    +1

    One lane, you messed up. You're at fault.

  • berry580 on 29/05/2018 - 23:54
    -2

    Lol to the 24 ozbargainer award winners who voted for OP being at fault

    • pegaxs on 30/05/2018 - 23:41
      +1

      Lol @ the near 200 OzBargainers that have not read, nor understand Australian Road Rules…

      I’ll add you to that list…

  • wombok2 on 30/05/2018 - 00:06

    Doesn't matter, just call your insurer :)

  • spoonmugen on 30/05/2018 - 00:46

    are u the green blob or the red one?

    red one is at fault… if it was 2 lanes to turn left then he should've turned into the top left lane (in ur picture has 2 lanes to go straight right to left)

  • BuyNow Think Later on 30/05/2018 - 08:50

    OP, was the other car a long wheelbase vehicle?

  • jjjaar on 30/05/2018 - 10:45

    On Nearmap, the road has been one lane since 2009, while all the others have consistently been 2 lanes. This indicates that the section of road is not wide enough according to RMS standards to formally make two lanes. Not sure exactly how insurers will take the incident, you'll have to explain it to them and hope you're not at fault for not giving way to the vehicle that began in front of you. Hopefully, for your sake, where the other vehicle hit yours identifies they were at fault.

  • leznix on 30/05/2018 - 12:12
    -1

    The main fault is the other driver's, not checking blindspot.

    • Herbse on 30/05/2018 - 12:58
      +1

      It's a single lane, there shouldn't be anyone there

      • leznix on 30/05/2018 - 14:22

        Yeah "shouldn't", but OP was there. If the other driver did have a quick look, would have seen op.

        Anyway, it is a good habit to check always.

      • peco on 30/05/2018 - 17:08
        +1

        What if a bike was there? If you're not aware of your surroundings when there's a car there then I'd hate to see what happens when there's a bike.

  • Randxyz123 on 30/05/2018 - 13:17

    I like how the OP has avoided every question about having insurance…

    • pegaxs on 30/05/2018 - 23:44

      It’s OzB… that’s a standard “No” for this forum. OzB is powered by the tears of uninsured drivers. :D

  • lostn on 30/05/2018 - 17:40

    Were there any traffic lights at this intersection?

    So he turned left from the right lane. That's already a fault on his part. You can't do that. If the guy in the left lane decides to go straight instead of turning, he hits his neighbor to the left of him. I've had near accidents where people have tried to do this to me.

    In your case, the guy on your right tried to turn left and enter the same lane as you, correct? The left lane of the road you are both entering? So the left part of his vehicle hits the right part of yours?

    It's 100% his fault.

    I haven't read through all of the comments (and I won't) so maybe you clarified already, but which part of both of your vehicles were hit? His front left lights/bumper hit some part of your car on the right side? Where abouts? Doors? Front of the doors? Front guard on the right side? Your rear? If it's not your front lights or bumper, it's going to be hard for him to argue that it was you who hit him and not him who hit you. When you hit someone, it's going to be the front part of your vehicle that hits them, not the side of your vehicle. That is quite hard to do.

    Call insurance, and don't sweat it too much.

    • pegaxs on 30/05/2018 - 23:48

      Since you have not read the whole thread…

      SPOILER ALERT

      There is only one lane there. OP overtook to the left down a parking lane.

      OP Cannot overtake cars on the left on single lane roads unless that car is stopped or signalling to turn right.

      OP is at fault.

  • crazyboy on 30/05/2018 - 18:40

    I think its 2 lanes there, the markings are visible if you go slightly back on this road.
    Also, I can see a X marked on the road in the Google maps, don't know what that means.

    https://imgur.com/PyYbFzf

    P.S. - I live in this area, but never used this specific turn.

  • Ghost47 on 30/05/2018 - 20:54

    It's the road authority's fault for not painting two lines on a road wide enough for two lanes.

    OP you'll have to pay but write to the road authority and give them an earful for their laziness.

  • HungryRussian on 30/05/2018 - 21:41
    -2

    Whether there are two lanes or one lane, the other driver is at fault. You can't generally turn from second lane unless specifically marked/advised.
    If it was one lane, even easier? He supposed to be behind you.
    And yes, but a dashcam mirror with front and rear cameras, they are superb

    • pegaxs on 31/05/2018 - 00:08
      +3

      @18 said:

      Initially, my car was behind his car, but he was driving like 20km/h below the speed limit which is why I was ahead of him at the time of collision.

      OP overtook on the left hand side on a single lane of road. The other car was in front of OP. OP was supposed to be behind them.

      And how can the other driver be at fault if OP broke the road rules by overtaking on the left? OP’s Car should never have been there in the first place.

      • Yummy on 31/05/2018 - 01:06
        +1

        Aha, that explains it. OP is an impatient fool & left this small detail in his main post. I feel tricked.

        How can I change my vote? OP, you are the weakest link, good bye!

  • ITveteran on 30/05/2018 - 22:08

    Sigh. I had a almost identical situation as yours back in 2008. Eventually I lost the case as I did not want to drag longer. Totally disappointed with the police (not present despite our request), insurance company (NRMA, which was reluctantly to involve but encouraged us to sue the other driver privately), 2 idiotic bitch witness (probably they knew the other driver) and solicitor (took my money but waited weeks without action).

    If you have a dash cam, or a rightful witness, then fight the case. Wish you all the best!

  • Overall Hammock on 30/05/2018 - 23:24
    +1

    In Victoria anyway:

    "
    Roads without marked lanes
    If you are on a road with no lane markings and there are two or more lines of traffic travelling in the same direction, you can change from one line of traffic to another if you signal, and it is safe.

    But, you can't overtake another vehicle on its left side unless:

    it is turning right
    if the vehicle is not moving.
    "

    And as an example of regular highway no markings at all:

    https://goo.gl/maps/rHivZ4vke5k

    • Herbse on 31/05/2018 - 18:09

      So this would put the OP in the wrong, yea?

  • HKS on 31/05/2018 - 08:50

    Are you in SA by any chance? I see this shit on the daily in Adelaide and it drives me insane. People are (profanity) when it comes to driving. i've started to be an (profanity) when driving and not letting people merge in front of me, taking off fast at lights to pick whatever lane i want, etc. This one guy tried to race me off the lights because it went to a single lane but my car was faster so I won that but these wagie idiots need to calm down.

    • ChickenTalon on 31/05/2018 - 13:44
      +4

      Irony: "This one guy tried to race me off the lights because it went to a single lane but my car was faster so I won that but these wagie idiots need to calm down."

  • [Deactivated] on 31/05/2018 - 11:05
    +1

    Whichever car passed the other while there is no line marking is at fault. If no car passed the other, the one further behind is at fault. How wide the road is, or how many lanes of traffic usually occupy it, does not matter legally, without road markings there is only allowed to be one lane of traffic.

    While you should keep as far left as is safe, nothing stops you from turning left from the rightmost part of that single 'lane'. You need to give way to any car which is in front of you when line markings between lanes end (unless the other lane specifically ends).

  • Herbse on 31/05/2018 - 18:10
    +1

    Updates!

  • SnoozeAndLose on 02/06/2018 - 14:53

    Op any update?

  • [Deactivated] on 05/06/2018 - 23:21

    Man I (profanity) hate those roads where they're large enough for 2 cars, yet they are one single lane. People act as if it's two lanes then get upset when you don't want to risk an incident and follow the law.

    There are so many places where the law is different to waht people do. :/

    Example place: here

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