New Type of Gumtree Scam?

follow on 01/05/2018 - 17:12

TLDR if you give your bsb and account number, a fake cheque deposit can be made at an ATM and the money will temporarily clear, only for it to be reversed due to no funds.

I was selling an item on Gumtree and ended up stumbling onto an interesting scam I almost fell victim to.

Buyer was in Melbourne, had to get it quickly for Gf's birthday and sent me id. I sent my payment details and they transferred money via ATM deposit. He told me it was cash, it was actually a cheque. Here's where it gets interesting….

They sent an amount (1150) then demanded I send it immediately, as they do. Got very angry when I said I'll wait till the cheque clear. They made threats like " I'll call cop" lol.

Two days later, the money cleared? Strange, I was sure it was a scam. Cheques was supposed to be cleared/rejected around 4 days later. I hopped onto live chat with the bank and they said the money is in your account. Asked many times whether or can be taken out again and was told no. Spoke to phone cs and they echoed the same.

I received no correspondence from the buyer for a few days which was strange as they had just parted with a lil money.

I was going to send but on the day the cheque was meant to clear/bounce I checked my balance. Lo and behold, the amount was now debited.
Multiple calls to cs and keep getting told different things.

Financial

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Comments

  • FoxJump on 01/05/2018 - 17:15
    +31

    This is when one of those illegal phone call recording apps can come in handy, for your chats with the banks.
    Thanks for the headsup.

    I can't wait until PayID is used by everyone.

    • D C on 01/05/2018 - 17:23
      +3

      Bank will have a recording.

      • poohduck on 01/05/2018 - 17:55
        +75

        Not if they are in the wrong I imagine

        • follow on 01/05/2018 - 17:58
          +12

          That's what I was thinking

        • subywagon on 01/05/2018 - 18:12
          +5

          @TarquinOliverNimrod: That's why I always use email for such conversations.

        • BertieBrown on 01/05/2018 - 22:23
          +29

          There was a highly unusual, and completely unanticipated error that occurred at the exact time OP spoke with CS, that caused any potential recording to be deleted.

        • Eeples on 01/05/2018 - 22:35
          +10

          No, we can trust the banks. Haha

        • John Kimble on 02/05/2018 - 13:52

          How does the recording software determine if the bank is in the wrong and stop recording?

        • dammitgaiz on 02/05/2018 - 23:06
          +47

          @John Kimble: Bless your soul.

        • D C on 03/05/2018 - 18:20
          +2

          @dammitgaiz:
          It all gets recorded and kept.

          Worked for banks, heard enough recordings. Lost recordings are due to the usual stuffs up, not an AI detecting 'bad things' and hitting delete.

          And people wonder how conspiracy theorists get started.

        • Munki on 04/05/2018 - 10:16
          +3

          @Jawanzar: Don't worry, you'll find it on a tape a few years later in a cabinet in Canberra.

        • BartholemewH on 04/05/2018 - 14:06
          +2

          @D C:
          I don't think anyone was suggesting AI was involved.

        • D C on 04/05/2018 - 14:41
          -1

          @BartholemewH:

          I don't think

          A common problem with a lot of people. So what theories do we have as to why @OP's recording got deleted then?

          (Never mind he hasn't bothered asking yet, conspire away!)

        • follow on 04/05/2018 - 15:54
          +2

          @D C: I think what they're saying is they'd be reluctant to hand over info. Im in the process of trying obtain the live chat info, and it's a allow process

        • Name on 04/05/2018 - 19:29

          @TarquinOliverNimrod: should get involved in the royal commission.

      • taoz on 01/05/2018 - 19:46

        definitely will have recording in customer service.
        I would be asking them why the money has gone

      • jimbobaus on 01/05/2018 - 18:28
        +15

        has not been the case for 100% of my PayID transfers.
        every single one to a new person has been instant

        • BlazinPast on 01/05/2018 - 18:31

          nice, that's good to hear. I actually haven't used it but it was stated multiple times with PayID in the description. I wish they confirmed it though if that was the case. I'd hate to tell someone that it was immediate but then have it delayed. They'll probably think you're scamming them now.

        • sintro on 03/05/2018 - 17:02

          @BlazinPast:

          There is definitely a 1 business day delay for ING payid sending to the ING payid for the first time as all first time internal transfers require 1 business day to clear.

        • ONEMariachi on 04/05/2018 - 20:14

          @sintro: Yeah first time takes 24 hours, but each one after that is immediate. At least has been so for the 10+ I've done now.

      • PissLUR on 01/05/2018 - 18:37
        +2

        that is for ING to ING.

        • hotdog679 on 03/05/2018 - 00:19

          Wait why does ING to ING take 24 hours for the funds to be available? I've noticed this when my gf transfers me money and vice versa.

        • thriver on 03/05/2018 - 05:51
          +2

          Yup ..I noticed the same as well.. ING to CBA got done instantly.. but ING to ING got delayed.. lol

        • FirstWizard on 03/05/2018 - 11:10

          ING to ING still uses their old intrabank transfer system instead of Osko.

          Delaying 24h for the first ever intrabank transfer used to be a thing with many banks. CBA does this all the time.

        • PissLUR on 03/05/2018 - 11:12

          @charlesli679:

          its just something that they do.

          this is their reply when I asked.

          Hi PissLUR,

          Thank you for your reply.

          The first ING to ING transfer will always take a business day to clear regardless of the way it was sent. If the sender has saved your PayID to their address book future payments to you will be instant.

          Let us know if you have any other questions.

          Regards,
          Melea

        • chillin222 on 04/05/2018 - 00:40

          @charlesli679: It's a fraud measure. If someone's hacked into your account, there's a good chance you'll log on sometime during the 24hr period and notice the debit. If you've paid someone before, the risk of a fraudulent payment is much lower, so banks are willing to wear the risk.

        • crazyboy on 04/05/2018 - 21:37
          +1

          @thriver: Defeats the whole purpose of PayID.

      • [Deactivated] on 03/05/2018 - 17:17
        +1

        CBA customers are subjected to that garbage.

    • [Deactivated] on 02/05/2018 - 11:15
      +10

      Phone call recordings are not illegal if you comply with the requirements in your State.
      For example, in Queensland you only have to be physically present on the phone, (no remote recording without the proper authorisation).
      I can record all my calls, in-going and out-going.
      I can also record any conversations I have in person, eg; face-face with the bank manager.

      • BargainShopaholic on 02/05/2018 - 19:28
        +3

        Same as VIC. It’s not illegal to record conversations as long as you’re a party to the conversation.

        • ziaxk87 on 03/05/2018 - 02:25
          -5

          I think you still have to let the other party know that conversation is being recorded.. you cannot just record it which makes it illegal

        • follow on 03/05/2018 - 03:14
          +3

          @ziaxk87: you don't have to let the other party know in those states. You do in WA tho

        • rainynight65 on 03/05/2018 - 07:56
          +6

          @ziaxk87:
          Incorrect.

          "it is legal for a telephone call to be secretly recorded by an external device (e.g. Dictaphone) by a person who is a party to the conversation – s 43, Invasion of Privacy Act 1971 (Qld);"
          " it is legal for a face to face conversation to be secretly recorded by a person who is a party to the conversation – s 43, Invasion of Privacy Act 1971 (Qld);"

          https://www.corneyandlind.com.au/resource-centre/schools/pri…

        • Kamsi on 03/05/2018 - 13:02
          +1

          @rainynight65:

          I hope this is the same in NSW.

        • macrocephalic on 05/05/2018 - 11:23

          @rainynight65: However it's not legal to record it directly on the device [in Queensland]. So the (im)moral of the story is that you should play the recording back from your phone to be recorded to an external device after the fact - if you so require.

      • Friendly Troll on 04/05/2018 - 09:48
        +1

        Here's South Australia's:

        “a person must not intentionally use any listening device to overhear, record, monitor or listen to any private conversation, whether or not the person is a party to the conversation, without the consent, expressed or implied, of the parties to that conversation”.

        :/

        https://www.andersons.com.au/lawtalk/2015/october/secretly-r…

      • random110 on 05/05/2018 - 06:53

        You are half right. You do need to comply with the requirements of your state, and you are right about Queensland. But you also need to comply with federal legislation.

        You cannot record a conversation if the recording device is part of the telephony system, such as a recording app on your phone. It needs to be a stand alone recording device that is not connected. See the Telecommunications (intercept and access) Act (Cwth)

    • overkillxx on 03/05/2018 - 16:34
      +2

      Call recording is illegal subject to STate.. In Victoira it is not illegal to record the conversation provided you are a participant to the conversation..

      • SLY JD on 04/05/2018 - 16:10

        Are there any apps for iPhone without jailbreaking?

        • LDS on 04/05/2018 - 19:36
          +1

          No. Only through jailbreaking

    • swilso on 04/05/2018 - 20:54
      +1

      Not necessarily illegal. My understanding is that it depends on your state, in QLD you can legally record a phone conversation even without telling the other party so long as it is recorded on a seperate device and must be for personal/legal use. I believe you can’t disclose the conversation to others unless requested in court.

  • [Deactivated] on 01/05/2018 - 17:17
    +5

    CS tells you whatever you're hoping to hear. I correspond via email for paper trail.

    • RyanMK on 01/05/2018 - 17:54
      +6

      You are usually able to request a copy of the chat transcript if communicating via live chat.

      • follow on 01/05/2018 - 17:58
        +2

        Hmmmm nice I'll try that.

      • Lastchancetosee on 02/05/2018 - 08:16
        +2

        You can save a copy of live chat, following the instructions at the end. If you have any trouble doing so, the staff will explain how. I keep all chats for future reference, and prefer to à phone call for that reason. You can also do other things while you're waiting…

    • cameldownunder on 03/05/2018 - 10:38
      +2

      " via email for paper trail. " LOL

      • [Deactivated] on 03/05/2018 - 10:39

        Lol. Not literal paper.

  • D C on 01/05/2018 - 17:22
    +4

    I don't many people (even at banks) knows how cheques work these days (deposited vs settled and all that).

    I can't remember the last time I wrote or even received a cheque. Yeah, I'd assume 'scam' if paid by cheque as well.

    • [Deactivated] on 02/05/2018 - 11:16

      Some of the big insurance companies still use cheques for claims payments.

      • johnno07 on 02/05/2018 - 23:30
        +3

        Bank cheques are still common for large transactions. I.e. house deposit.

        • [Deactivated] on 04/05/2018 - 12:12

          Looking at house prices these days I would've thought bullion would be more appropriate.

  • dcep on 01/05/2018 - 17:27
    +3

    thanks, will give it a try

    • follow on 01/05/2018 - 17:58

      Let me know, very interested

  • poohduck on 01/05/2018 - 17:51

    Really, the bank should be easily accountable for that. It's a pity the liberals are all bark and no bite - they just do the bare minimum to appease our anger. The banks sacrifice a few board members and cruise through a bit of bad publicity till some other disaster (ball tampering or something trump says) diverts our attention.

    Despite all that though, if the dude had the money, and your account details he could have done a direct deposit - why a cheque?

    • follow on 01/05/2018 - 17:57
      +1

      It was an stringed my attempted scam. He didn't have any intention of sending the money

      • Kangal on 01/05/2018 - 21:44

        I'm curious as to what you were selling (don't tell me it was your gf) ??

        Are you still in contact with the buyer/scammer?
        Suggest to them to send payment via Bitcoin and see how they react : )

  • chumlee on 01/05/2018 - 17:54
    +17

    Anyone that pays by cheque is suspicious

    Gumtree is cash only

    • follow on 01/05/2018 - 17:57

      Yep but thought I'd entertain it on the off chance

    • BlazinPast on 01/05/2018 - 17:59

      Bank transfer is extremely safe. I think it's the gold standard, given that you wait for the money to arrive into your account. There's nothing the other guy can do once it's in your account. I would say it's safer than cash where someone could maybe steal the item from you if it's small (phone) or give counterfeit notes.

      • garetz on 01/05/2018 - 21:40

        Unless they give you the wrong info and you get a dishonor fee, when it starts to happen multiple times, you stop doing bank transfers.

      • Boshait on 02/05/2018 - 13:33
        +4

        Bank transfer is reversible. Transferor just needs to claim they entered the wrong details and their bank will start the reversal process. See ePayments Code.

        http://download.asic.gov.au/media/3798542/epayments-code-pub…

        • lousy on 02/05/2018 - 22:06
          -1

          Not in my experience

        • Ziggy28 on 03/05/2018 - 02:41
          -3

          Get a bank account that charges no fees, such as ING. Use it as an account to collect gumtree or other sales. Once the money gets into your account, transfer it out immediately to your main account, do not leave a cent. That should prevent these reversible scams.

        • Gina Rinehart on 03/05/2018 - 07:30
          +6

          @Ziggy28: until it gets reversed anyway and your account goes into negative balance..

        • chillin222 on 04/05/2018 - 00:42

          @55: This does not happen. All the ePayments code provisions only apply if the funds are still in the account.

      • jlogic on 02/05/2018 - 23:20
        +3

        Not when they used a hacked or supposedly hacked details. Banks that reverse payments if done this way. You get treated like you were a criminal until you prove yourself innocent.

        Cold hard cash is the only way.

      • hotdog679 on 03/05/2018 - 00:21
        +9

        "There's nothing the other guy can do once it's in your account"

        Isn't the whole point of this post that something DID happen once the money was in OP's account? The money cleared and got debited 2 days later?

        • chumlee on 03/05/2018 - 07:03

          Exactly

        • neonlight on 03/05/2018 - 08:34

          "There's nothing the other guy can do once it's in your account"

          This only benefits the seller. But you think about the buyer paid but not receiving goods that can happen. Nothing they can do

      • idonotknowwhy on 03/05/2018 - 17:11

        There's nothing the other guy can do once it's in your account.

        No, you must be thinking of bitcoin.

    • loropy9 on 02/05/2018 - 22:44

      Yeah, I keep telling this to my grampa.

  • BertieBrown on 01/05/2018 - 22:24

    Did you end up sending the item TarquinOliverNimrod?

    • follow on 01/05/2018 - 23:08
      +1

      no

      • yolohobo on 02/05/2018 - 04:51
        +68

        I'll call cop

  • Geoff897 on 01/05/2018 - 23:45
    +3

    I just ask for their phone number. Most often you never hear from them or they give fake details.
    A simple call and you can tell straight way.

    I always make 2 or 3 different methods of communications.

  • noobie123 on 02/05/2018 - 00:17
    +6

    Tell them you sent the item and keep them waiting forever.

  • [Deactivated] on 02/05/2018 - 01:43
    +3

    Who would send over $1000 and hope you send it. Already seems somethings wrong.

    • [Deactivated] on 03/05/2018 - 00:21
      +6

      Based on the number of people giving away iPhone Xs and believing photoshopped bank receipts it wouldn't surprise me.

  • Hardlyworkin on 02/05/2018 - 09:21
    +1

    Which bank? Maybe they pocketed the money!

    • bolt on 03/05/2018 - 11:07

      Also interested to know which bank this was.

      • follow on 03/05/2018 - 11:50

        Subsidiary of Commonwealth Bank

      • R-Man on 04/05/2018 - 13:41
        +2

        It was Bankwest guys! I have solved the mystery ;)

  • HeWhoKnows on 02/05/2018 - 12:09
    -3

    I think your bank is the scam. Not the buyer.
    When you refused to send the item the buyer may have cancelled the cheque.
    I think your bank owes you a big explanation.
    Maybe submit this case to the Banking Royal Commission.

    • crazyboy on 04/05/2018 - 21:40

      If buyer is not scam, they why did he lost of hope of getting a phone?

  • affable on 02/05/2018 - 15:26
    +2

    OP - re "if you give your bsb and account number, a fake cheque deposit can be made at an ATM" - how does that work? I can use my ATM card to deposit a cheque, however I can only put that cheque into my own account. I don't see any options on any of the ATM's I've used (ANZ, Westpac, St George) to enter someone else's BSB/acct? Do you know for sure it was an ATM deposit, or could it have been over the counter?
    I actually think this is simply an over the counter cheque deposit from their account which had insufficient funds. This is actually not fraud, just a scammer exploiting cheque processing. Your bank acknowledges the deposit at the time it was made, however it is not "cleared funds" until your bank goes to the issuing bank where the cheque was drawn, only to find "insufficient funds". Cheques are an antiquated IOU (I owe you) system and easily exploited if you don't understand what "cleared funds" are.

    • follow on 02/05/2018 - 15:29

      Not sure how he as able to but it was 100% ATM deposit.
      If at the time the money "cleared" I could've withdrawn the money, had I known this would occur.
      I've requested a copy of the cheque so I'll see soon

      • affable on 02/05/2018 - 15:46

        I take it back, the scammer can use an ATM, well ANZ anyway. I've just found this video shows ANZ "Smart ATM's" ability to do deposits simply by knowing a BSB/acct -

        https://vimeo.com/158999782

        However it doesn't make much difference, as you've always been able to do it over the counter.

        • follow on 02/05/2018 - 15:48

          I think with Atm way you can use a different card to yours. The name of the cheque account holder came up in my transaction description. I doubt it's him. Korean name but when he picked up had an Indian accent

        • affable on 02/05/2018 - 15:55

          @TarquinOliverNimrod:

          With the ANZ method, you don't need ANY card. Did the scammer want to know which bank you were with? I doubt this method would work if the BSB/account was not with the bank that they were using the ATM of.

        • follow on 02/05/2018 - 16:01

          @affable: it wasn't ANZ, but I'm pretty sure they weren't with my bank as they were looking for an ATM that was my bank.

        • affable on 02/05/2018 - 16:05

          @TarquinOliverNimrod:

          That confirms my suspicions, the scammer probably needs to use an ATM from your BANK for it to accept a cheque into your account. The feature is meant to allow YOU to deposit a cheque when you don't have your ATM card with you.

        • follow on 02/05/2018 - 16:07

          @affable: oh yes I get now. But I don't get why a different name came up. Shouldn't mine come up?

        • affable on 02/05/2018 - 16:19

          @TarquinOliverNimrod: In that ANZ vimeo video it describes how the ATM images the cheque and grabs the account holder's details. Essentially, the scammer could just copy a cheque they received, and change the details to make it out to you. That might be why the cheque cleared and then later bounced, once the actual account holder (whose cheque the scammer used) contacted the bank to dispute the transaction.
          Both personal cheques and bank cheques are wide open to fraud. In the past I've verified a bank cheque with the issuing bank to ensure it is legit, however I'm now wondering whether even that is sufficient.

        • follow on 02/05/2018 - 16:39

          @affable: oh yep sort of like changing the name on a cheque and cashing it in.

    • gromit on 03/05/2018 - 16:41

      It works just fine. I have done this at CBA ATM's many times when depositing cheques for my wife (prize money for art competitions). You enter the account number and put the cheque in.

      • Sira on 05/05/2018 - 19:44

        Yes, but with CBA the funds are not readily available/withdrawabale like in this instance….

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