Hi everyone.
I've been driving a run down 2003 Camry with 150,000kms on the clock for the past few years, recently I've decided I want to live a little so I am in the market for an entry level high performance car. My requirements are the following:
What would you guys buy? and why?
Let me know in the comments below.
@Burnertoasty: show me where i contradicted. You havent given any defence aside from Motoring timing which i have already explained to you. There is a massive difference with the manual vs automatic. Also if you ever owned a rear wheel performance car, you would understand that getting perfect launch is not about stepping on the accelerator hard. You would get way too much wheel spin. This is where launch control helps.
@Shiv86: The clear contradiction is that I said you’d be dreaming to replicate a 140i doing 0-100kmh in 4.6 in the real world, then proceeded to post evidence that supported my contention (a link where the best performance of a 140i was 0-100kmh in 5.7 seconds, 1.1 seconds slower than the claim). The rest of your argument consisted of you basically saying ‘but if this was different… then’, but not supporting it with any evidence. I’ll give you some ground, a ZF 8 speed is no doubt faster than a manual transmission in a straight line as you say, but launch control or not (I’m not sure than the manual doesn’t have it and you’ll find that in most certified testing a good launch without launch control is as fast or faster than with), there is not 1.1 seconds of performance difference. I’ll state it again, I have not been able to find verified performance for the 140i that gets anywhere near 0-100kmh in 4.6 seconds, and I looked. By verified I mean with a Vbox on a flat piece of tarmac. And most defiantly without that bullshit 1foot rollout, which is a made up time that has no bearing in the real world.
@Burnertoasty: Here's a snippet from a YouTube comment PDriveTV made a week ago:
"All performance tests are done using a Racelogic Vbox Sport, and on the same flat road so you can compare each car for car (on this channel). Our tests are NOT done to find the absolute quickest-ever time possible; we don't pump tyres up too high, we don't run 105RON fuel, we don't remove unnecessary weight, and we don't subtract a one-foot rollout like many other tests. Our times are just simple, raw, real-world times."
I agree with the point you're trying to get across though. The fastest or even average 0-100 time you see online doesn't necessarily represent typical real world results. I've timed well over 100 cars using G-Tech and VBox performance meters. In doing this I've found there's often a big difference between real world figures and manufacturer's claims/times people throw around on the net/etc. My favourite is when people start quoting 0-100km/h times and when you dig a little deeper you find out their source is a US magazine reporting 0-60mph times corrected for altitude and factoring in a 1 foot rollout :)
You see a similar thing when you look at drag strip runs people post online of stock cars. Eg. Over the past few years I've seen some stock G6ET's at the drags run high 12s, most running low to mid 13s, and some running high 13s. If you were to just go on the timeslips/videos you see posted online though you'd be convinced high 12s is the average (I guess those running mid to high 13s aren't as eager to post their times).
@Burnertoasty: thats my whole point. A good launch without launch control with a manual on a rear wheel drive car isnt something that everyone can do. You are relying on one article. Launch control does make a huge difference on a car with so much power being sent to the rear wheels. Manual def doesnt have launch control with the 140i.
@Shiv86: I was basing it on one article, (about an Auto car), but then you gave me a second article to support my contention about a manual car.
@Burnertoasty: You completely disregarded Pdrive tv figures. My whole point with motoring was that the acclaimed 4.6 is for automatic and not manual. They got their article wrong by comparing that.
@Burnertoasty: I posted the article to prove my point. Felt like you didnt even know the test was on manual. My whole point was dont rely on motoring to get it right.
@Shiv86: If I saw the car can’t replicate 0-100 in 4.6 and you say it can, then post an article where the car does 0-100 in 5.7, it doesn’t prove your point at all. Regardless if it’s manual or auto. I don’t see how you are not understanding this?
@Burnertoasty: The fact that motoring wrote the car does 4.6 with a manual shows their credibility. I already showed you pdrive tv got manual at 5.1 but you disregarded it.
@Shiv86: How is this proving your point? You really don’t understand the evidence and how to use it. Let’s hope you never end up in court.
@Shiv86: I’m not posting evidence that directly contradicts my point.
It’s like you going to court for stealing a Mars bar, then showing the court CCTV of you stealing a Snickers bar to prove you didn’t steal the Mars bar.
@Burnertoasty: If you are going to put it that way then you remind me of a person that says i swear he stole a mars bar and i have CCTV camera to prove it however i wont hand you the footage because the camera is a fake.
New article/video from car advice comparing m140i and golf r:
https://www.caradvice.com.au/626274/2018-bmw-m140i-v-volkswa…
0-100: 4.9s vs 5.1s
consider the current run out deal listed here on the 330i shadow edition
not a performance, but hey… brand new car and ticks most of the boxes you're asking
Saab turbo.
WRX premium will be an all rounder and you can still go with STI if you want to spend more money but I got an WRX it’s a great car👍.
+1
I've got this car, and I love it. Great combination of power and comfort. I've had a few Japanese sporty cars in my time, Silvia, Supra, Integra, skyline, evo7…
The Evo was the best sports car I've owned, an absolutely amazing driving experience. However, the WRX has been the most comfortable daily drive for me, plus it has all the modern features you could want.
I got the Premium S Edition for 50k, which I found to be great value
What year mode is the premium S?
Been looking at Impreza wrx and some of the 2010- G3 hatchbacks cost more than an early model WRX premium. More demand for the older ones? Do you know why?
My Premium S was a limited run last year (2017) - i think only a couple of hundred came to Aus. They do it every couple of years i think. It's basically the premium with some sti parts (wheels, front lip, strut bar, gear shift knob and factory tinted windows). On top of that, i ordered a short shift kit.
The premium itself is a top car - leather, electric seats, sunroof, nav, bluetooth, reverse camera, blind spot monitors. The seats are super comfy, but don't hold you in place as well as the evos recaros when doing hard direction changes.
As for why the hatches are more in demand, they are probably the most practical wrx - plenty of space and rear access - the best of both worlds :) Plus, they stopped making the hatches, which a lot of people are complaining about
@love2buy: The car is registered under the name of my business, so insurance is a rip off - best i could get find is $2300 a year, but maybe i can do better. For comparison, as a normal rating 1 driver, best quote i got was just over 1k
There were a lot more choices back then. Reminded me the goo old days
Didn't know there was a premium S edition in Australia. I got the 2017 just premium and its been great so far.
Take a Subaru BRZ tS out for a test drive. Not a high performance car, but a lot of fun, reliable, well within your budget…….
Oh and before anyone says they are under powered (which they aren't - they just can handle more power), there are stacks of mods you can do to make them a little more spritely. Eg https://www.carthrottle.com/post/amp/this-might-be-the-faste…
Twin Turbo 2JZ swap :P
Installing a turbo kit is also a good option on the FA20s to give it that extra boost (pun not intended).
how much would this cost? do they sell bolt on kits?
Around $5k upwards. Eg https://www.carmodsaustralia.com.au/stage-1-turbocharger-kit…
If you planned to do mods, then probably best to go a used 86/brz that's a couple of years old, and spend the money you save on upgrades. Remember if you up the power, you also need to up the brakes etc to cope. Personally the standard car is fine as it is.
@TheOneWhoKnocks: slow in straight line acceleration compared to some cars. It's fast around corners, a lot of fun to drive at street legal speeds, and way faster than most normal cars out there. If you do want to win more red light races against higher end performance cars (that cost more to buy and maintain) there are stacks of options to let you do that. A simple E85 fuel upgrade will easily drop the 0-60mph time to sub six seconds.
@PlasticSpaceman: Yep, its all relative to what the person wants. I have heard some great things about the 86s even stock with no performance modifications. The boxer and RWD combo is quite good.
@TheOneWhoKnocks: if you've never driven one, go to a dealer and do it. Full disclosure - I have an 86. First time I drove one I had a dumb grin on my face for ages. Mine is fairly stock, other than an after market exhaust so it makes a nicer noise. ;-)
@PlasticSpaceman: I think they feel faster than they actually are and that's part of what makes them fun. I really like the 86s, but I'm not sure about them being "faster than most normal cars out there". Depends on what you consider a 'normal car' though. I'd say a 4 cylinder ecoboost falcon is an example of a pretty normal car. Yet in Motor's 2012 BFYB it outperformed the 86 and BRZ in every performance test.
I take magazine straight line times with a grain of salt (useful for comparing against other cars in the same review, but not so much for the raw numbers), but when a 4cyl 'taxi' is pulling quicker lap times and corner speeds than an 86 and BRZ, I'm not sure if that's saying it's performing better than expected or the 86/BRZ feels faster than it is. Mind you, I think I know which one I'd feel safer pushing to the limits around a track haha
@darrenbok: well, a 2012 test of an 86 would have had Prius tyres so yep it would have been sliding all over the place so cornering speeds would have been ordinary. Fun though, compared to the taxi. Whatever the case, I also know which car I'd prefer. ;-)
Not a high performance car…
Before anyone says they are under powered, which they aren't…
Which one is it? Under powered or high performance?
Its well balanced. Its a car built for corners, not straight line. If you want straight line it kinda begs for a larger engine, but with the engine sound redirected into the cabin, and low CG, it makes for easy carving of twisties.
It's not a one or the other thing. Not everything is a McLaren 720s. In fact, very few things are.
OP asked for an 'entry level high performance car' under $60k.
A 86/BRZ needs an engine swap and better rubber to be a performance car. That's too technical for someone asking for help picking a car. If OP was that way inclined they would be asking, 'which LS should I put in my camery? which diff should I use for my RWD conversion? and what is the best way to stiffen my chassis with out adding to much weight?'. Or he would have bought a lotus for under $40,000 (which would be suicide for a guy asking for a performance car here).
OP needs a 5 star, turn key solution. As they have a limited budget it probably shouldn't be secondhand premium with out a warranty.
@This Guy: Well, to be fair the 86 is all the performance a lot of people need. I'm just disputing the idea that because an 86 can't do a 10 second pass out of the factory, it's somehow not qualified to be a sportscar.
An 86 is as much of a sports car as a KIA Picanto. With the right engine swap and tires the Picanto would be night and day more fun on a mountain pass. That chassis is stupidly under stressed. I can't believe KIA include a u beam strut bar as part of the chassis…
@freakatronic: fully agree. Plus acceleration is important, but not everything. It's great to have a car that can shoot to the speed limit in 5 or 6 (or less) seconds, but not so good if it can't go around corners. I've owned and driven cars that had double or more the power of the stock brz/86, and had lots of fun with them - but I've really enjoyed my (so far) 12 months of 86 ownership and it's been at a fraction of the cost of my other cars.
Oh, and again - the engine is designed to support ethanol (ie "racing fuel"). Just needs a tune and you can easily get sub 6 second 0-100 times which is definitely on the decent side of performance and doesn't impact reliability, just running cost (uses more fuel). If you want to run both so can switch whenever you want, you can do that for fairly nominal cost.
@PlasticSpaceman: Full disclosure, I'm leaning toward an 86 as my next car. I think I "get" them and they get me. I'm not a fast and light person, so I think in drawn to fast and light cars. Cars that can cost a guy his license in 2.9 seconds are great and all, but what do you do with them the rest of the time?
@freakatronic: do it. Almost sensible car, and fun on a stick. Oh, even with the 86 I have the GPS set to warn me when I'm over the speed limit….
+1 for a BRZ or 86
Hayabusa
You know it makes sense
Or throw the motor into a smart car.
Quick off the line and minimal parking space required.
a turbo falcon could be had for 5 grand… or a supercharged v8 commodore for about 10… your in the right country for either.
@darkliger sent you a message about a possible option for you.
New 2017 Mustangs are going for 50-55k atm.
2017 Infiniti Q50 Red Sport?
https://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Infiniti-Q50-201…
I'd never buy one new because they have the biggest depreciation level I've ever seen on such a car in a long time, but as a 1 year old car with a few thousand kms they're excellent value. The 400bhp will be something you'll never get tired of. I have looked at the Stinger GT and this, and the Q50 is just that little bit nicer. In the Stinger its the little things that bothered me compared to the Germans like for example you can still see plastic moulding marks and certain switches felt cheap. The Q50 on the other hand is probably the closest you can get to attention to detail as the Germans without paying an exorbitant price.
Hmm, that’s not a half bad choice
Stinger
Ralliart Magna
Passat V6 (newer version with the R36 Engine) has been absolutely awesome for me for the price I got it. Nobody thinks of it as a performance car, but it does 0-100km in 5.5 sec…definitely the best bang for your buck.
Its a massive upgrade from a Camry and you won't have to spend anywhere near 60k for something 4 or 5 years old.
I’d recommend a used Mercedes C200 Coupe, can get last years model with little kms for around 60k. Beautiful car, drives awesome as well.
Never owned one, but…
Mercedes-Benz A45. Surprised no one has mentioned it yet. 0-100km/h in 4.5s, 265kw, combined fuel economy of 6.5L/100km!
Alternatively the C63 are getting cheaper now too.
For around 60k?
Under $60k! Get on carsales and have a look, no need for the negs.
$45k!!!
https://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Mercedes-Benz-A4…
They even sell a C43 AMG here in Singapore (that's right…4 cyclinders, similar to the A45).
IS350 F Sport, or IS F. New or used.
Have an ISF myself that I'm selling at the moment, with mods it makes approximately 300kw at the wheels and does 0-100 in 3.8secs :)
Great car and only selling due to upgrading to an RCF
The V8s on the RCFs sounds amazing with the right exhaust.
Yeh my current ISF sounds like an exotic with a combination of JoeZ catback exhaust, intake and equal length japanese Novel headers :)
0-100 in 3.8 seconds on a rear wheel drive v8 which is nearly 2 seconds quicker than stock. Finding that a little hard to believe, the ISF is fast but I would doubt you have the traction to get sub 4 second 0-100s with a ~300kw car. Happy to see a YouTube video or racelogic picture that backs your claims up
0-60mph with Intake, headers, exhaust and no tune:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/attachments/is-f-2008-2014/…
Car does about 4.2secs stock - so with an extra 80kw at the wheels…
I love the look of the current lexus (Lexi?? How do I correctly pluralize lexus?) but I have never had headroom problems like I had in the is250. Is it better in the RCF? Or do full-size people still have to lie on their backs to drive around?
Lol I'm only 5'10 so not "full sized" :P But my RCF is the carbon edition without the sunroof, so I assume that gives a bit more headroom without the sunroof mechanism. Take one for a test drive and find out? :)
@freakatronic: For sure :)
Hit me up if you want to try the older brother ISF, modded and tuned - much faster than the RCF hehe
M135i, couple of years old with low K’s will be sub-50k easily. They are very nice to drive, you just have to forget how to drive in order to own one.
Civic type R. Pretty damn good car, FWD, ironed out all the issues with 10th gen.
I have the 10th gen civic VTiLX and its still a phenomenal car. Type R is just next level.
https://www.honda.com.au/cars/hatchback/civic-type-r.html?gc…
https://www.drive.com.au/new-car-reviews/2017-drive-car-of-t…
Nope, it's a lemon.
Many reports of overheating and engine problems…worse than the Focus RS (which to be honest, is a bit overblown). The Holden/Ford's are the usual expected quality (not good, not bad). However, the new model Mustangs are coming up with issues. Not sure about the Golf/Merc/BMW, but I expect them to behave the usual format (great quality first 4years, then lots of quick Wear and electronic issues afterwards, with expensive maintenance).
Most reliable budget/reasonable-priced sports car is the Subaru WRX (non-STI). The Kia GT (Optima/Stinger?) looks to be quite reliable as well but that's first-impressions as we haven't seen it out for that long.
What no-one has asked is this: OP are you going to keep the Camry, or replace it??
If he keeps it, then he can rundown the Camry for mundane 9-5 stuff. And use the sports car for weekends and events. This supplementation would mean he wouldn't necessarily need a high quality car, as it will get "Light Use"… so he can possibly forgo a reliable new Kia GT, and instead opt for something which is more out there like a modded EVO 7.
I personally would limit myself to a single car, and rather go for an Everyday Car which has Power…. instead of a Sports Car which has Comfort. Because after awhile that "sportiness" becomes old hat, and you wish you had something more practical. In fact, I'm considering getting a 4WD-Ute ("dualcab") in the future. And it's true, they are the fastest cars in the world*
*as long as they can choose the terrain, or the payload.
The reason why euro performance cars get a bad rep is due to people servicing at stealerships. I used to service my cars at independant mechanics and it cost me the exact same amount for a Jap or a euro.
The issue with euro cars was due to the dual clutch. The dry clutch was and is a crap box that's built solely to fit a budget. It has no redeeming features beyond an attractive price point. The wet clutch will still be an issue if drivers aren't aware that they shouldn't let the auto alternate between N, 1st and 2nd in bumper to bumper traffic. There's a lot of unnecessary shifts in a dual clutch in those scenarios.
Electronic issues… Yeah, that's a bit of a downer so I tend to stay away from all the fancy crap like adjustable magnetic ride, HUDs, smart dash and the nobbly thing that replaced the touch screen "for safety reasons". There's nothing safe about fondling knobs at 100kmph.
Safety notwithstanding, I love fondling knobs at any speed. :)
@KSMLJ:
You would love this car. It has buttons and knobs coming out the wazoo.
http://performancedrive.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Op…
It is a real car, not just the renderings of a 13 year old boy who has just discovered how to be handy.
@tshow: I saw the opel the other day from the side and legit thought the old man driving had a magnifier in front of his tachos. not sure if it was a barina, astra or what.
@abuch47:
He must have twist the wrong knob or stroked the wrong shaft once too often. Not hard to imagine in that car.
My Passat, while not exactly a performance car, has had $15k of repairs on it in 4 years and it still has issues. I reckon stick to Toyota/Lexus, Subaru or more recently Kia if you want reliability. Will never buy another VW.
@Ryballs:
If I stopped purchasing a particular brand whenever I come across a fault, I wouldn't buy anything from anyone.
I've had an alternator fail on a Honda motorcycle. No idea of the cost as I fixed it myself.
Toyota with door seals peel off. Fixed under warranty.
VW with infotainment bug. Too intermittent to fix but annoying AF.
BMW with driveshaft failure. Sold due to $$$$ replacement.
Ford with the infamous transmission cock up design. $27k car sold for $6k after 4 years. R and 2nd gear intermittently fails to engage. Heaviest depreciation ever.
Loooooong list.
The Civic Type R is ok if you hire an assistant to guide you over to your car with your eyes closed. Once you're inside looking out everything is fine.
You're not a fan of a Gundam helmet on wheels?
Get the fastest car in the world, a Toyota Corolla rental.
yep, it even changes colour as tested by jeremy clarkson in new zealand
CLA45 AMG. Some of the other entry level AMG's like this are very nice prices. Just make sure it's got good service history and purchase a Swann extended Warranty on it (will cover pretty much the entire engine/car if something goes wrong) and you'll be laughing.
https://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Mercedes-Benz-CL…
Yep CLA45 or A45 is the ONLY correct answer here. They’re insane. 3.9 seconds I believe. 10 years ago that was $400,000 lamborghini territory.
I think CLA45 is outside the budget though.
Yeah there’s about 100 A45’s under $60k and 20 CLA45’s domestically on carsales currently.
Too many wankaz drive CLA 45
You know you're a (profanity) when you spell (profanity) as above.
Now you know why I spelled it like that lol
I usually would never recommend a commodore, but I recently saw a review of the Commodore VXR.
It's pretty damn loaded and looks quite nice in my opinion. Nowadays they're made in germany if that means anything.
Alternatively, go for the kia stinger.
@zeomega:
https://www.google.com.au/search?safe=off&rlz=1C1CHBD_en-gbA…
Plenty of examples that hit 4.7ish seconds.
I'm glad you're assuming i used a butt dyno, because that's exactly how i convince myself my car hits a hundred in 4.1 seconds, estimation.