Hi all,
I have about 5 years in recruitment, both internal and agency.
I've worked in clinical, technology and in blue collar labour hire.
Fire away, I'll get to your questions as soon as I can :)
[AMA] I'm a Talent Acquisition Partner (Recruitment)
spook290 on 15/02/2018 - 12:03
closed Comments
@R-Man:
Did I say anything about bonuses?I was talking about commission, I've never recruited sales roles or commission based roles so forgive my mistake there.
admittedly, having worked in a sales role myself I should've been more aware, but I was in my early 20's and didn't pay much attention to the tax.
And to correct you, while I work in a broader people services function, I have never worked in HR or am part of HR.
I can kind of answer this. I've used a load of these guys to find me people for a range of jobs that I have. One of the businesses I am involved with is a Software company that builds solutions for a government customer. I need people with specific skills. If i put a job out on a job-board I will get smashed with hundreds of applications 99% of which i dont have the time to sort through. There are some very specific requirements for most of my positions, namely that the candidate needs to have or to be able to get a government security clearance. Despite asking this I almost always get desperate people from overseas that apply hoping I will sponsor them, fly them to Australia etc.
If i mention the word Logistics in my description (because they might be required to work on Logistics software, something like an ERP) I get an avalanch of CVs from truck drivers and storemen. Apparently they dont read the title or bit about having to be a software developer. It appears to me that most people simply use a keyword search then spam anything that turns up with their CV.
Even after they have all been filtered I still have massive problems. I have literally had people send me perfect CVs, interview well, get hired and 2 days into the job my senior developers are telling me the candidate is useless. I interview them and they admit they lied on their CV, when i ask why they tell me they thought that unless they lied they wouldn't get the job, i tell them they've now got the job but they cant do the work, normally at this stage they start begging me if i have any other work they could do (as if i hire random people and then try to invent work to keep them occupied). I even had one guy go through this process and when i had to fire him 3 days in he smugly told me that he (totally naively) thought that since i had signed an employment contract to hire him i now had to pay him out. He was literally going around claiming stuff he had no ability in with the thought that, once hired, found out and then sacked companies would pay him out with a fat termination cheque. My HR department ran him through a few parts of the contract he signed and highlighted to him some parts of the IR laws and he was most upset at missing out, i think he threatened legal action, we never heard from him again. Yet another lied about having a security clearance, technically he had one but had recently broken the law and been fired by his former employer (lied about this in his CV and interview). When we tried to get his clearance reinstated his upcoming appointment with the courts was revealed and we, once again had to part ways.
Every time this happens we have to go back to the drawing board and start again looking for people to hire. I cant afford to employ fulltime recruiters because the recruiting is lumpy ie we dont recruit for ages then we win a big contract and it goes nuts and we need loads of people in a short time period. I can price in the cost of a recruiter when i do the budgets for a specific role. Recruiters go and do a load of work and if they fond somebody useful for me they get paid. I dont begrudge them a paycheque, the good and reliable ones have become trusted partners for me and I rely on them to fnd me good staff.
I think the problem for most people is understanding who recruiters work for. like most jobs they work for the person paying their commission. Candidates have a meeting with a friendly recruiter and naively assume the recruiter is now working to find them a job. When the expected jobs dont roll in they get frustrated and blame the deceptive evil sales guy…the recruiter. The recruiter may have been friendly and might genuinely have thought their client might like you and want to hire you…once that client decides you arent in the running for a paying comiission the ercruiter is hardly going to fall on their sword to help you because you had such a great cup of coffee a fortnight ago! In reality, 99% of recruiters will propose who they think is most likely to win a role to their client. If a client shows an interest they will quickly jump on that bandwagon so they can get paid.
If there is a hack for candidates it is networks. If one of my trusted employees or contractors tells me he knows somebody perfect for a role and a couple of others that i trust vouch for this person and the $$ stack up, I'll hire them before i even ring a recruiter. Another issue is budget. If i have to put 15% - 20% of my budget aside to pay a recruiter, that's 15 - 20% of my budget that is not on the table for wage negotiations with you. If you come to me directly with no recruiter involved i might be happy to give more of this up in negotiations since i'm not paying the headhunter.
Good insights, you also get a 3-6 month guarantee when working with a recruiter, so if they have lied throughout the interview, you get a free replacement, unfortunately you still lose the time and effort you had invested in them.
You are correct in that most recruiters will look after the person who is paying their bills, in house it gets more tricky as you have an employee brand to look after, if people have a bad experience then they will leave you as a customer.
The old saying of good people know good people is true, if someone you trust recommends someone, then that's the best possible introduction.
I guess what I neglected to say was that good recruiters should know how to filter out the dishonest and duplicitous among the candidates. The very best recruiters know the industry/segment well enough to know which questions to ask and have networks themselves to uncover things like the candidate having been recently fired for legal reasons etc etc. The process of filtering through all of this and saving me the drama and distraction of having to hire and fire is what i am paying a commission for. It might sound like easy work but the best and most reliable recruiters that i work with have earned my trust and I know that they go to lengths to avoid me having to deal with the dramas mentioned above.
@2ndeffort:
I couldn't agree more, I know when I use agencies I don't want to have to double check their work otherwise I get no value out of it.That's why I only work with specialists, who know their market in depth, have candidates that they can use their own networks to fact check also, that's how they can justify a 10k-20k fee.
Are there really recruiters for Big 4 accounting firms, or is it all direct?
External recruiters? There would be, accounting and finance is a big market with the big 4 hiring the most.
That being said, I've never recruited specifically in that space so can't give you a 100% confident answer :)
Speaking from experience here. Yes there are legit ones. A friend of mine was successfully headhunted for a role at PwC through a recruiter and she was at a mid tier previously.
I myself had a very different experience to hers and it was completely negative unfortunately. I was at a boutique firm and wanted a move to b4; had a lot of recruiters hit me up during my tenure so decided to respond to a few and see what happens. Let's just say all of them were useless. A few initial messages at the start but then they just stop responding altogether. Put me off recruiters permanently.
In the end I managed to secure a lateral move by myself. Made a lot more sense since I wouldn't think b4 would need to get external recruiters to help with their hiring.
I work in a Big 4 and it's overrated for what it's worth.
Fair point, but you'd have to agree that having b4 experience + CA opens up a lot more opportunities.
What software/ATS do you use?
I've used several they are;
- FastTrack (older version, was pretty clunky)
- Adapt, also pretty clunky and not very user friendly
- PageUp, beautiful system, works extremely well
- Avature, system is easy to use and does the basics well, support is lacking however
I've generally been the SME of sorts within the business around our ATS'
Ever heard of or used iCIMS?
Never heard of them myself, any good?
We're using Avature currently and I'm pushing to get off them.
I've had a look at Lever which looks nice and I would be interested to try
They're based in the US. I might be biased, but let me know if you ever consider them, or just want to chat.
How large is your current place (# employees)?
Why do you use ridiculous language like "Talent Acquisition Partner" to describe people who hire staff.
You can say that about a lot of job titles.
In the end, I partner with a specific business unit to acquire talent. I generally see that internal recruitment functions generally use Talent Acquisition while external providers use more consultant/director in their job titles.
They're very different roles in the end so makes sense they have different role titles.
At least I'm not called the 'Head of Technology Recruitment' or 'Vice President of…' that you see some companies do ;)
No more ridiculous than the guys i meet at trade shows who rush up to me and hand me business cards for the shelf company they paid their accountant $1500 for and then hired somebody off Gumtree to make them business cards. The cards always have them listed as CEO or MD. I have to resist the urge to ask hom many directors they have on the board!
My favorite is when someone's title is simply 'consultant', then applies for several (completely) different jobs and just plays with the resume…. too much fluff!
To some extent, I would also say that it aligns with corporate language and speaking the same 'language' is a tried and true sales tactic. I work in a multinational and terms like that are pretty common.
Anything in IT towards SE Melbourne?
I'm not the best to answer unfortunately, I work in-house now in the CBD so don't have the broader knowledge I used to.
With HP on the downturn there's not a lot of big enterprises out that way, CBD/inner suburbs is still your best bet it seems
Why do you say HP (micro focus?) Is having a downturn .. are you seeing this happen ? Just interested as work for a MF partner.
I've seen a lot of those big vendors have a downturn in staff over the last few years, I say HP as they were a large employer in SE suburbs :)
What's the story with apparently freelance recruiters who troll LinkedIn for candidates for roles advertised directly by the hiring companies or other agencies?
I seem to get occasional calls where a few minutes chat shows they have no idea about the role beyond the job advert, but presumably they want to approach the hiring company with my CV in hand.
Does this approach work, or are they as desperate as they seem?I see that as desperate, ad chasing is a pretty crappy way of chasing business.
they will see an ad has been open for a couple of weeks and try and float in candidates, despite as you mentioned, not really having an idea. Bit of a spray and pray approach.I have literally had 2 recruiters having a squabble with me about a candidate they've both proposed to me for a role. Beware of Linkedin, their sales guys are all over the recruitment industry. Skilled recruiters can get details on what you've been looking at on the platform. I know recruiters that literally search for people who've been looking at job adverts on Linkedin as they are probably going to be easier to 'shake loose' from their employers. As with my comments about candidates above, Linkedin works for the people paying them and this is normally the recruitment companies & Headhunters.
With the recruiter licenses I don't believe you can see who is specifically applying for jobs, but you can see who has on their profile 'open to new opportunities'.
Candidate ownership is a messy messy situation, both between recruiters and between recruiter and client, candidates just need to be honest about where they heard about the job, some people have the impression if they are represented multiple times then it helps their chances this couldn't be further from the truth
What do you think of LinkedIn? I've looked at several peoples profiles that I work with and most of them are a complete load of crap. They exaggerate their skills and abilities in the hope of getting a better job. Some are poorly written whilst others appear to be done professionally.
LinkedIn is quite an expensive tool for the recruiter licenses (15k-20k) but in the end, you only need to make 1 or 2 hires a year to justify the spend.
The idea of LinkedIn is because it is a public profile, people will call you out if it is a complete fabrication, no one ever does, so you're right people will exaggerate titles and responsibilities, it is good to check to make sure people's CV's and profiles link up.
I think it's more becoming just another social feed used to promote company/personal brands and less of a sales tool, am sick to death of seeing 'do you agree?' at the end of every post.
It has a use in targeted headhunting from a recruitment point of view, in my view it's always a very slow way of recruiting. As soon as you approach people that aren't looking, they will throw out a massive salary figure and hope for the best. It's always my last point of call when recruiting, usually after our advertisement and using Seek Talent Search/my own network has yielded no results.
As a candidate, it's nice to receive the occasional approach to find out what's out there without actually looking
Linkedin is an interesting search tool for many recruiters I hire a lot of contractors via Linkedin. Skilled recruiters know how to run the right searches on Linkedin. As with all of the online platforms you need to have the right keywords in your profile to turn up on the searches. I laugh when i see profiles with 'disruptor' or 'change champion' etc in them. Maybe i am out of touch but I dont think many people go searching for a 'disruptor' many more people go looking for a 'Systems Engineer with 10 years experience in RF Design' or a 'BI Developer with skills in DataStage & DataSphere'.
It's all about the Boolean searching, it's pretty easy and there are boolean search generators that will create the string for you.
Do an 'x-ray' search next time you're looking for guys on LinkedIn and don't have a recruiter license, get's the same results but need to add people before messaging them :)
And you're right about the fluffy titles, you look for a specific skill set & job title, not a front end ninja.
I have recently been umemployed, and my criteria for my next job was to find a perm jib ,so i wouldnt have to deal with u rectuiters so often for contracting work. In my personal experience, recruiters have less integrity than car salesmen or sales people on general.Most recruiters have ZERO experience in the field they are recruiting for, and have ZERO undertanding that they are not just dealing with jobs.. But people's LIVELIHOODS!Recruiters seem to useless & clueless. I manage to score all my employment by going directly to the companies i want to work for.
You would still likely be dealing with recruiters, just they are in an in-house capacity as opposed to external, I work in house and look after both contracting and perm roles.
Recruitment in-house is essentially a specialised function of HR, agency is more a sales role.You will be right most recruiters don't have experience in the field they recruit in, it's not up to the member of recruitment to test people from a technical point of view, that is the hiring managers role.
There's plenty of bad recruiters out there, most of the time, if an agency is advertising a role on Seek they're not a great one, no client is going to pay 15k-20k just for them to put up a $200 advert on Seek, if that's what they wanted they would do it themselves.
If you are dealing with a recruiter, try and partner with one that specialises in your field, they will have greater networks in that area and be able to sell your skillset appropriately.
Ha nice professional response to a comment that essentially called you and your industry a pack of lying bottom feeders
I'm on LinkedIn, I see the comments enough already, recruiter bashing is nothing new :)
People have had genuinely terrible experiences and I can completely understand why they think that way, even my partner dislikes agencies immensely due to her experiences.
Candidate experience is becoming more and more prominent and most companies are working extremely hard to deal with some of the problems the industry has had.
I literally own a software company. We are about to sign a contract with a government department to build them a new version of some software that we've previously built earlier versions of for them. I will need a couple of developers with some very specific skills and experience, not to mention that all of them will need to have government security clearances. Without a clearance people wont even be allowed into the building or a logon to the dev environment. I have a part time HR manager, cant justify the work for a fulltime HR resource and I am mad busy trying to run the company and win the next lot of projects to keep the existing workforce employed. All my existing developers are flat out busy and i dont want to take them off using their tech skills to search for candidates. I will also point out that we aer a small-ish software company af around 10 or so people that swells to 15 - 20 when we have a lot of work on, we arent IBM! Best way to find people is through personal networks but when this fails (as it normally does because we've already hired most of our good colleagues/mates) what other option is open to us?
I applied for a job via a recruiter like 3 months ago and got rejected.
is that cool if I send my application again 3 months+ later by myself? I've sent the Candidate Permission to the recruiter saying I won't use other recruiter or contact the employer directly,I'd say that is fine, if you were unsuccessful then they don't have any candidate ownership, was there any specific feedback provided?
Some agencies have a terrible habit of hoarding CV's, they will generally send the best 3-5, but won't let other candidates know they haven't been sent, partly because they don't want a difficult conversation, partly so they don't apply through other means. It's much easier to say the client said no rather then we said no.
Overall, it would be worth trying if you think you are the right fit, but I wouldn't pin my hopes on this one too much :)
Thanks! actually it was a senior developer job while I have only 2 years experience but the recruiter told me it was worth trying because it's niche market so not too many competitors.
I would say he was unprofessional. will apply some junior to mid level position when there is a chance by myselfGood devs are very much in demand, especially with a lot of business moving to the spotify engineering model, if you have that mix of front end and back end you should be able to find a new job pretty quickly.
If I had my time over again I would definitely be a dev! Even your mid level dev's can be earning 6 figure salaries :)
…
What %age of successful candidates don't show up on Day 1?
Is there a database of such candidates shared amongst the recruitment community?Also, do recruiters care if a candidate gets hired for more or less money as long as they are within the budget?
In my first recruitment job, which was blue collar recruitment there was a horrifying amount of candidates that simply would not show up, they would essentially go into a never contact again part of our system.
Working in a more corporate setting, I've never had anyone not show up touch wood on day 1, the occasional interview get's missed for varying reasons.
There's no recruitment wide blacklist, but at least in Melbourne, it ends up being a pretty small market and these kind of things will come back to bite you sooner or later.
In regards to moving to a higher or lower paying job? Not many candidates look for a decrease in salary, unless they're going in a different career direction. It's always a nice feeling when you can help someone get that pay increase, but in the end, it's how a candidate markets themselves, those in recruitment don't decide the salary, the hiring manager does, we just make the hiring manager aware of the candidates expectations.
I'm always completely honest if an asking salary is within or out of budget, no point wasting anyone's time, I also am happy to tell people if I think they're underpaid, I just got off the phone with someone that I assumed would be earning between 100k-120k and found out they're being paid 60k, I've recommended him for a job that I'm recruiting for that will be 90k-120k package.
In agency you wouldn't care as much as long as the deal is getting over the line (but the more the candidate gets, the bigger fee you get).
Have you ever heard of a recruiter blacklist? Not the one where recruiters blacklists candidates, but blacklisted recruiters who have bad practices as you have listed above?
Are you seeing much work in the Agile/DevOps space at the moment? (Assuming you're at a recruiting company at the moment)
I'm getting a fair amount of calls with very limited information on LinkedIn (contracting for the last 10 years or so, in varying roles) with ever increasing rates behind those contracts. But it seems to be from a limited number of companies, hence the question.
Thanks
I work in-house with fin services :)
Yep, Agile and DevOps are still all the rage, they have been for the last 3 or 4 years. I know we've just uplifted the capability of our DevOps & automation team recently.
It's great if you're a contractor with such an in demand skillset. As long as you have the right buzz words on your LinkedIn you will get a lot of love!
Are the calls limited about the job or limited information on your profile?I'm starting to see the perm market catch up to the contract market in regards to salary which is nice.
Calls are limited in terms of the number of companies behind the recruitment call. Seems to be ANZ, NAB, AGL, Medibank and sometimes Telstra.
Perm rates have a while to go before they catch up completely TBH… But I'm enjoying being in demand nevertheless :)
Thanks for the response.
NAB are recruiting everyone within IT for Melbourne :)
Those companies all have large DevOps teams so will almost always be in the market, surprised Aus Post hasn't hit you up too!They have a while to go, I don't think they will ever catch up to the $1,00 a day mark (we actually employed someone through a consultancy for $1,800 a day recently, crazy stuff) but I am seeing packages of 140k-170k for senior engineers come through
Could you tell us a story about a frustrating client please? One that you'd tell over beers.
I think two of the most frustrating I've had were;
I had done a lot of work finding a difficult to fill skillset, I was competing with other agencies which was fine, I've always done my shortlists in person with the hiring manager so I can get immediate feedback, lock in interviews there and then and not keep people waiting too long.
Anyway, 2/3 candidates went to interview, the third was of 'no interest', which was fine, it happens.
I spoke to the candidate, let them know the role wasn't going ahead.
Months later I found out the candidate started with that client, I had left the paper copy of that candidates resume and never sent a digital copy as they were of no interest, no paper trail.
It was early in my career and was a lesson that cost around 20kI had another who promised 7-8 dev jobs exclusively, after burning the midnight candle a couple of days in a row, I learnt that the role was with 7-8 other agencies. I'm happy to compete , but prefer transparency
I'm not a fan in general.
So puzzle me this:
Can you explain how someone like myself who has a lot of experience (over 20yrs)( IT/Telco, business/Gov), great references, qualified, well presented, reasonable salary expectations, worked in a number of industries, and a diligent employee can submit 200 applications all to roles I was qualified for, have 20 interviews over a 9 month period and still be unemployed ?
This happened to me. I only got a job by chance, and have been in it for nearly 3 yrs, so you'd think I was relatively competent.
Whilst unemployed I had my CV reviewed, met with numerous people, networked like heck, but got nothing. Lets just say I suspect its as I am over 45. Its cheaper to hire a 30 Yr old with no commitments that a 45 yr old with a family. I have since spoken to others of my vintage to come across similar anecdotes. Is ageism real or am I being paranoid ?Can you explain why when you apply for a role that may be of lower standing or salary than your previous role, that the recruiter does not even bother to speak with you as they assume you would be too expensive or over qualified ? Perhaps I want to take a step back ? Perhaps I have been unemployed for a while and I am desperate to work and will do anything ?
Can you explain why a person can be discounted instantly and when asked for feedback as to why, get no response ?
Can you explain to me why I can use my employees network to hire people yet I have to pay a recruiter $1000's yet get candidates that don't fit my requirement ? I end up requesting the CVs myself and screening them myself as the recruiters don't understand the role they are recruiting for.
Can you explain to me why a recruiter would discount and not submit a CV of a candidate whom I had advised to apply for a role that I am managing the hiring process for ?
Can you explain to me why recruiters don't know anything about the businesses they recruit for, despite being given a comprehensive brief ?
Just a start..look forward to the response..
What technologies?
What is your expected salary?
What type of role?I'd find it very hard for someone with an IT background not to have a job for that long, without an underlying reason.
Hi Klogg..
Underlying reason? Such as ? I'm pretty sure I'm an OK person, stable employment background (over 25 yrs), married 2 kids, lots of friends, volunteer in the local community..
But It happened. I kept records of what I did in terms of what roles I applied for, salary etc. I have worked in Banking & Finance, Utilities, consultancies, Government agencies, Mining to name a few. I applied to all of these industries and more. I met recruiters, other managers, hit linked in, called in favors.
I applied for Project/Program management, team management, Business analysis, process Analyst, Administration management, Banking & Finance roles, the list goes on. I was not picky at the end as I just wanted to work and get paid as $$$ were becoming tough.
I began to think that perhaps the IT industry had passed me by..
I had come from a BPM/ITSM Telco service management role where I was managing 20 staff doing technical writing, Process development, Business Analysis Lean and Agile project delivery.
Initially I went for similar roles but was unsuccessful , so went to applying for Program/Project Management roles. Still unsuccessful. Salary range was reasonable. 130 -150k package. 750/day contracting. No Luck. I then tried BA roles where I started and still had competency in terms of BPM/Agile/Lean. Still no role. Never asked about salary. I just wanted to get a job !
I am seeing it again in another person I know. He has been out of work for 8 months, a good operator and highly experienced and qualified. More SDM role than what I was in. I have nothing in my area for him and have referred him to another before you ask as to why I haven't hired him. I would if I could but I am not currently in a service delivery management group.
I am still at a loss(and it still irritates me) as to why I didn't get any of those roles as I got little or no feedback.
So you have to draw your own conclusions. In my conversation with my ex colleague he too is wondering the same thing, having experienced similar phenomena, hence my ageism comment. It is soul destroying when it seems no one wants you and you don't know why.
Without knowing the in's and out's I can only speculate.
Telco/Gov aren't always the most attractive industry for candidates to come out of, it also depends what you have been doing and what the market demand is.
If you were an infrastructure PM with no cloud experience for example, it is a candidate heavy market with not a lot of opportunities.People do generally assume the worst when hearing that you are looking to take a step back, they worry that you are just using them as a step ladder to get back to the salary you were.
I wouldn't agree with ageism, i'm sure it still happens, but companies are very very strict around their discrimination laws and don't want to do anything to jeapodise that, in my role as well if someone isn't providing legitimate feedback and I feel they're discriminating I will happily call them out.
It sounds like you have been doing a lot right, networking and not giving up, you say you got a job by chance, maybe you sell yourself short and you got it through the hard work and determination you showed?
In regards to a recruiter not submitting someone you recommended while you're managing the hiring process, it is silly for them not to do it, seems the best way to a placement for me!
People often avoid the hard conversations when telling someone they've been unsuccesful and don't want to provide feedback, I think everyone has been guilty of it.
If the recruiters you're working with aren't delivering the service, despite being given every opportunity then time to find a new one, speak with other managers and find out their experiences with someone good. Most recruiters are absolutely stoked to work with hiring managers that will take the time to meet with them and give them a comprehensive briefing so they don't have to assume and guess the blanks. Especially if you're doing half their job for them.
Hi dude,
To me, the recruitment process works like so:
- Resume - to prove you can do the job;
- Interview - so the employer can see if they like you;
- References - to make sure you're not a weirdo.
You're getting interviews, so your resume is fine. Clearly something is going wrong in either the interview or reference processes.
regarding ageism…..I spent 3 calls last week trying to talk people back out of retirement to work on very well paid consulting contracts. I then had to spend more time having to have an embarrassing call to the client to ask whether their new key resource could only work 3 days a week, 1 of them from home because he minds his grandkids. Answer was that it was OK but I need to find another part timer to work the other 2 days a week!! All about demand and supply. if you have some skills and experience that are in demand in the workplace age is not normally an issue.
I am about to go and hire 2 software developers. I am interested in getting some young guys in. I would literally hire anybody if I thought they would do the best job. Experienecd guy should be lower risk because they should know what to do. Younger guy should need training and more supervision but people are people and I've been surpised in the past to the extent that i dont take anything for granted anymore. What I find in my industry is that there is a tightknit group of 'usual suspects' that cycle through the 3 or 4 companies. I dont want to be held to ransom by one of the old stagers because he is the only experienced person available at this point in time. What i would prefer to do is get some new blood into the gene pool. If i can suffer through the supervision and training part upfront I might help grow a new resource and if that person works out well I will have found a new star.
If you have two candidates with similar profile and background, would you prefer one or the other based on whether they have Master degree or not? What if the Master is MBA from a recognisable university?
My personal thoughts, it would only matter with an entry level job what their education is, once you get that first step in I don't see it mattering much.
I don't even read where people have gone to university or their degree, experience is far more important.
I challenge hiring managers when writing position descriptions that include tertiary requirement, would we honestly say no to someone that is a perfect culture fit and has the right career background because they didn't do a masters?
Thank you, that is helpful.
Qualifications are a ticket to the dance. Some of the roles i hire people for legally requier you to be a professional engineer. I often get applications from experienced tradesmen etc and despite the fact that they might have years of experience, an essential requirement is that the person must hold an engineering degree. In that case the degree is literally a tick in the box. I dont look at academic transcripts, what their research assignment was, I dont compare the engineering programs from different universities and i couldnt care less whether you went to the most prestigious Uni or the least prestigious uni. If you have the qualification you pass the filter. Next and most important stage is what experience you have. i would 99% of the time hire somebody with a degree from a less prestigious uni but with good and relevant job experience light years ahead of somebody with a degree from a very prestigious Uni but with little relevant experience.
For some of the senior roles we look for masters degrees but, like with the engineers, marketing stuff from the uni doesnt buy into our calculations, it is all about doing the job. A Masters ticks a box then it is all about experience.
What's the deal with hiring freezes?
to be honest, I'm not sure, someone has F'd up and everything stops while the company goes into panic control, perhaps they want to look as profitable as possible so stop filling any non revenue generating roles.
Only ones I've been involved with has been when new C-level execs come on board and want to assess things, but they've only been quite short.
Too many hiring freezes and I wouldn't have a job :P
Thanks!
Normally this means they have too many workers and not enough work but they dont have the cojones to sack people. They figure that rather than have all of the unpleasantness of sacking people and paying redundancies, if they just dont bring in anybody new the regular rate of attrition will manage the reduction in staff for them. This is particularly popular with government departments as politicians are responsible for all of the unpleasantness and heartbreak of sacking people. Like so many political decisions, easier just to quietly let something unravel in the background out of the prying eyes of those that would hold you accountable. Either people will get bored, notice the lack of opportunity for promotions and development or just plain want to get away from the general malaise so they'll quit of their own accord. Once they get down to the right level they start hiring again. Problem with this is that the first to go are normally the ones they least want to lose. People with no other options are probably the ones most likely to hang on. You can literally watch the 'A Team' walk out the door and all you are left with is 'F Troop' !
What kinds of tactics do people in the talent acquisition field use to find and get in contact with people?
I had someone trying to get onto me at one point, who I believe found me on LinkedIn, then called reception at my company, asked to be put through to my mobile and then tried to get me to interview for a job in a field I knew nothing about. Is that kind of thing common?
Usually we're finding people through a few different ways
Job boards, your seeks, indeed, company career pages etc
Back end of seek, can download your resume there
LinkedIn, in mail or as you said, go through the switchboard, that's more agency style though, it does happen however
referrals, speak to someone I know who can connect me with a candidate
What is the general structure of a recruiter's commission and fees and how are they measured?
Engagement fee? Flat rate?
Commission fee? % of first year's salary?
Ongoing trails? %etc etc
Chrs
It all depends if it is a contract or permanent role.
Contingent permanent (make the placement get the fee) you are paid a percentage of first year, average fee is around 15% but this can vary a lot.
Retained permanent, paid on briefing of job, shortlist of candidates and placement of candidate, 1/3 each time
contract you are generally briefed on a total charge, for example, 1,100 for a developer, you pay the developer 800 a day, there might be 100 for payroll tax, workers insurance etc, then there might be 200 per day as margin.
the agency invoices the client after each time sheet.Contracting is the most lucrative, not uncommon for contractors to stay long term and earn ongoing commissions.
sometimes you might do a part service, essentially paid for market research, but far less common
You ever done a "casting couch"?
Only in my dreams!
No offers from any desperate job seekers either, I have been offered money however!
What was the most you've been offered?
Essentially an additional 50% of the fee I would take home, worked out to be about 9k
I also had a client offer to do bank deposit with me instead of through the agency I worked with, wouldve worked out quite lucrative if I accepted!
What would be an average daily rate for contract Mobile software engineer(iOS&Android) with 4 years of exp and bachelors degree in Melbourne?
I asked my recruiter for 500, the client liked me and I got the 500 I asked for. Now I have a feeling that I could have asked much more, what do you think?Depends on your level technically, as you're aware you might be better then someone who has 10 years experience.
I would say 500-600 + gst is quite reasonable
, the total charge the recruiter has you out is likely 700-800, includes insurance, tax and their marginDepending where you live. In Sydney you would be asking for 900 to 1000 a day.
I have few questions.
There are some recruiters who call and email asking for updated CV for a potential opportunity without disclosing the client name. When I trust them and provide my CV, I don't hear from them forever and they're gone. Why is that? Is it some kind of populating their resume database trick?
When a recruiter works for a position, are they responsible for shortlisting candidates for the role or is it a responsibility of hiring manager? I personally feel recruiters do not understand everything in the CV and look for exact keywords match whereas the candidate might have mentioned the same in a different word and doesn't get shortlisted because of this. Do you even take help from hiring managers to evaluate a CV if you're in doubt?
Will an agency recruiter favour a skilled candidate's asking rate to an employer if there is room or work to find someone on a cheaper cost than what their client wants? What do employers prefer usually? budget candidate or someone with skills but higher than their budgeted rate?
- if they can't name their client, they're probably fishing, why would a client want to remain anonymous? half of recruitment is selling the company! They be pooling cv's and trying to float you in rather than being briefed.
2.as the recruiter, we will shortlist down to generally the best 5 cv's or so, hiring manager will critique those 5 and work out who's going to interview. Sometimes if I'm unsure I'll sit down with the hiring manager to bounce ideas, but most of the work should be done in the initial briefing.
- My experience is managers want the best person for the budgeted range, they get approval to spend X amount so may as well use it. However, if you have similar experience to the rest of the team, but paid higher they may be hesitant because it can cause further issues
To be honest, I instantly see a punching bug but I'll hold back :)
One thing that gets to me is that every time a labour-hire agency needs 50 or so white-card labourers they'll say they desparately need more people at the interview. But this is after them losing my name 3 or 4 times after the initial confirmation and only replying to my CV after I would ring up explaining I already worked through them on the same project 2 years prior. And then they ask the same questions again…at the interview ("Yes, um, I worked for you"). No note taking system in 2018?! When they ask me to suggest the job to friends and I ask for the requirements they often say things like "reliable" but based on who turns up it never looks like they try very hard.
My theory is they can't be assed ringing people up and have no idea how to go through a bunch of on-line resumes (technologically illiterate?).
And fact…they generally can't read/handle emails.I tell people that in the world of labour hire HR (and HR in general) you don't exist until you've had a phone conversation. You need to get that nose brown. But these days, when you ring up, a lot of agencies say to use their useless black-hole called an applicant registration portal. So crafting keywords into a resume to get basic acknowledgement from an HR robot-like person (or an actual computer…) is as frustrating as a CAPTCHA.
I always think I can do a better job but maybe I'll suck just as much or begin to suck.
Sorry. I was just triggered. This was mostly a rant.
Hi Peter, punch away! haha
Some agencies have very poor governance and systems, where they won't store candidates details or their interactions, which is terrible practice I agree.
If you've done previous good work with them they should have you on speed dial!
this is probably why they're having issues getting the number of candidates they need, if they just kept in touch with the good ones they would be sorted!
My first recruitment job was labour hire, a lot of people use that as a step to get into the market, my experience is that you would literally speak to hundreds and hundredhundreds of people a week, as bad as it sounds, it does get hard to remember individual people so that may be a bit or insight to the generic boring responses you receive.
with that being said, I still remember my favourite candidates that were super dependable and made my life easy!
Have you ever profiled candidates (subconsciously) based in their name and/or accent during the initial screening?
Very curious about this too as racism in recruitment seems to be the norm. Lots of personal anecdotes from people not getting any responses for a while and seeing immediate results after changing first/last names.
Early on, yes, the labour hire I worked with was atrocious with this, it was essentially co many policy to be very picky, only after leaving and going back do I realise how God awful that place was.
Now, I do have to consciously make sure I have an open mind and not judge, accent isn't important but overall communication skills is still a requirement of many jobs
why is there sooo many recruitment people from england ?
ive noticed so many in sydney in all the recruitment firmsDo online degrees have recognition compared to onsite degrees ? E.g. coursera offers online degrees and so do other online platforms and even some universities themselves offer online versions of their programs. I odten wondered about these and if its worth tye time you spend.
I generally see a uni degree getting your first job then experience counts after that.
I don't look too much if it was Monash on campus or online
Do you have any tips for interviews via phone and in person? I work as a nurse and have been recently struggling to be successful in interviews for the past few months. I believe the recruitment panel expect you to answer their questions in detail and on most occasions, I get stuck and not able to answer it the way I thought I could have when I recollect the questions later. I have only received very little feedback from the managers who would advise me that either they don't find me capable enough to manage it or I didn't quite make it to the list of shortlisted applicants. The others when I try to contact them over the phone or through email wouldn't reply me back. And there were some few instances like one of them asked me to submit a pre employment checklist after a week of the interview which I managed to complete the same day and only to receive a mail the next day that my application was unsuccessful. There were others who wouldn't respond to let me know about the progress of my application for weeks which I did request prior to the interview just so I could apply for other jobs before the closing date.
Sorry to bombard you with my life story. I am just so frustrated and disappointed as to how I can prove myselfNo worries at all, it depends on what the Interview format is, is it behavioral? look up the STAR format to give some structures around the answer.
If it is clinical based, the one think I always had to look out for was how risk was assessed in certain role plays
It's terrible they're not providing feedback, as it is hard to change your approach, if you submit a complaint they will come back to you quite quickly with feedback (obviously if they don't respond to other channels). If they come back with somthing generic, don't be afraid to challenge then for something specific.
They really should be providing a transparent process.
Thanks for your advice. Will look into the STAR format. The questions are a mix of behavioural and clinical and social sometimes behavioural alone.
How ageist do you think the Australian job market is? At what age are you considered not worth the effort of employing?
In the corporate world, my experience is not very ageist at all, any semblance of discrimination is taking extremely carefully.
In blue collar, very, as there is work cover claims and such to be conscious of, companies are very risk free.
HAHA, I answered above that i spent 2 days last week talking somebody (65+) back out of retirement then negotiating with my client (for whom they would be working) to agree on 3 days a week, 1 worked from home (because the worker had to mind his grandkids 1 day a week). All about Supply and Demand, the candidate is a well known guy with a fantrastic reputation, my client was over the moon to get him even with the odd working arrangements.
Do you prefer to have references listed in the resume (including their email addresses and mobile phone numbers), or keep them separately and only give them when requested? I'm asking because I'm worried by listing them all the recruiter will have impression that I don't appreciate privacy - i.e listing people's details just like that. Even though I have pretty good references to include, like the senior manager and director. Thanks.
I would never recommend you put details on your resume, dodgy agency people will call up managers to try and drum up business.
name and title is fine, but no phone numbers!!
I don't mind asking for them, it's another contact point with the candidate and keeps them engaged in the process
Are you as useless as other time wasters called recruiters ?
@spook290:
You work in HR you really shouldn't be confused about this. Hope you haven't been telling candidates their potential bonuses get 'taxed heavily'.