Hi all,
I have about 5 years in recruitment, both internal and agency.
I've worked in clinical, technology and in blue collar labour hire.
Fire away, I'll get to your questions as soon as I can :)
[AMA] I'm a Talent Acquisition Partner (Recruitment)
spook290 on 15/02/2018 - 12:03
closed Comments
not OP, but usually over qualified and don't have soft skills as someone who graduated / live / learned in Australia.
Entry jobs are designed largely for grads as the pay / skills necessary flex together and increase over time (you would hope) as the grad grows with the role and company.
Someone who has done masters / 1 year experience applying for entry level jobs may not be the right fit for the entry level position due to already having said experience. Will the position be enough to keep this employee?
Not even in the same field and this sends huge red flags as a manager. Stuff like cultural (workplace culture not race) and personality fit are just as important as qualifications and job experience.
agree - especially with the tone "who never scored well in the same field and just after graduation straight away get full time jobs" - comes across as a superiority complex.
@dasher86: i agree with you but its not just my story and i just raised question to see what am i missing and what recruiters are looking for in applicants :( i know my tone might be harsh but i am really frustrated as well as been doing odd jobs 5 years by now
@bluesea: There's also a massive supply of Accountants which means you get crap all (I know people who got paid <$40k out of year) and you're highly replaceable. I would suggest something else to differentiate yourself either through study or experience. Also, never do masters… always get the employer to pay for it for you!
Accountants gets paid a pittance and they work long hours. I don't recommend anyone to do it.
Not to be rude AT ALL, but reading your comments alone gave me a bit of a headache. If your CV reads anything like your comments, I daresay this could be something you should first look into.
If not, getting a tailored CV that you can rework per job application definitely helped me in the past. It'll pay for itself pretty quickly and is tax deductible anyway (which I'd imagine you already know).
As others above have stated, try to stand out by highlighting the differences you'd be bringing to a prospective employer.
Good luck.
well i have graduated here and worked here too and always put honest experiences in resume but not even getting an interview call is frustrating whereas i know some asian students who got jobs even before qualifying i must have applied over 250 jobs in last 2 years the only job i got was through my personal reference on casual basis so after 1 year experience i am trying again but no luck :( i expect to get at least an interview call
by the way its not story of myself only the guy who passed all subjects with distinction in my class has the exact same story and now a taxi driver
Nothing personal against you.
The reply i was giving was generic in nature to the applicants i have screened who tend to follow my above description.
A lot of them also come across as I know everything because I have a MBA etc.@bluesea:
I've never recruited specifically in accounting, but you are right in regards to cultural fit, with entry level jobs everyone has the same experience, so it comes down to the softer skills.That and your networks, a good word from the right person can make the world of difference, network network network!
@spook290: yes lets see i might have to change the profession already started applying for customer service jobs i know things are not impossible and wont lose hope and keep trying who knows i have a specific day when my luck will work ;)
@bluesea:
It can also be a lot easier to make the transition into the role you want once you're in a company.A lot of jobs are advertised internally only, usually after 12 months you can start applying for those.
I've seen a lot of people with degrees in call centres make the transition to their desired careers, if it is a case that you're kicking goals and you have the right degree, they will choose a known quantity.
When interviewing, never say this is your intention though, call centre managers and leads get all sensitive when they're seen as a stepping stone in your career
@spook290:
Correct.
I know someone similar who moved from a few decent years from a Credit collections to an assistant accountant.
MBA mid early 30s. Still heaps to learn though.
Hi bluesea,
From your comments I assume you are Asian? Have you tried using more anglo/aussie names on your applications/resume?
Reading a foreign name often results in those resume's being instantly trashed. Why would they bother with a hard to read/pronounce name, when there are 100 applicants that don't.
I don't think this is a good thing.. but it is often the reality. Australia has a strong undercurrent of xenophobia and racism. So my father also decided to change his name.. he arrived in the 1970s and people were still resentful of Germans after WW2.
network network network!
Does that include you cold calling/annoying your own candidates referees to see if they are looking for workers?
@stumo:
I would call that cold calling and not networking, I recommended in another comment earlier to avoid putting referree contact details on your resume to avoid this situationI don’t understand how people put different names on their resume, isn’t that providing false information? Yea, all immigrants used to change their name to assimilate, now they don’t and shout racism when you don’t know how to pronounce it.
I think what it comes down to 1. Who you know 2. The diversity of your resume 3. your personal/cultural fit to that organization.
Addressing point 1, I work at one of the "Big 4" and what I see more of now is that our Partners etc are more likely to hire those who colleagues recommend or vouch for. The firm I work for constantly holds and attends networking events which are a great opportunity to connect. I can't talk on behalf of others, but for me personally, I'm more than happy for people to add me on LinkedIn (after approaching me at networking events) and ask me questions there, I've had people ask me to catch up with coffee just to pick my brain and I would recommend them in a heartbeat if they asked.
If you're struggling to get past the first stage of looking for jobs, look at your resume, make it unique. As brutal as it sounds, at this stage you're just a piece of paper in a pile of 1,000 others. Everyone has the same or similar degree, but what might separate you from someone else, is an extracurricular activity i.e "Member of XYZ Society" or "Tutor for First-Year Students" that differentiates you and in many cases shows that you might be a cultural fit.
Even if you fulfill point 1 and 2, if your personality doesn't suit the team or company, you may not get through regardless (this also depends heavily on the company). I've met people who are extremely smart and would be a great asset, but they're missing the soft skills to work with the team or with a client.
Personally as well, I always asked for feedback regarding why I was rejected (only if I made it through the first stage at the very least) because if I didn't, I wouldn't know what I was doing wrong or how to improve. In some situations, someone is just much better for the job and there is nothing you can do.
TLDR:
Diversify your CV with extracurriculars, attend networking events & be enthusiastic & ask questions to the professionals at the events and work on your soft skills. Ask for feedback if you make it first the first stage but get kicked back (in a polite way)Disclaimer: I'm not a professional at this stuff, my opinion could be completely wrong, but it helped me :P
If your resume is written as poorly as your post it may explain why you get overlooked. I get that this is an internet forum but effort counts in all forms and it's very obvious when it's not put in.
pm me if you like
Any advice on cover letters?
There seems to be varying ideas on how they should be formatted and structured.
A very tricky one, I always look at a resume first, if someone has the right resume and I want to chat with them, I often won't even read the cover letter.
If I'm on the fence, I'll read the cover letter, if it is something generic and boring that just has 2 or 3 keywords changed for each job, then it won't change my mind.
A cover letter should be specific and address the key criteria of the role, one of the best ones I ever read had the 5-6 dot points I had as the key criteria, and simply addressed each one, simple and brilliant.
That's my personal preference
How often do you TAP into a talent pool for great workers? ;)
TAPing into the passive workforce? :)
It varies, when I was agency side, 90% of roles filled were with passive candidates.
Internal, not as much, I'm lucky to have worked for companies with really strong brand names that people are interested in working for, perhaps 20% of roles are filled with passive candidates.
What's TAP and what's a passive candidate?
I think smiggle was trying with a pun :)
Passive candidates are candidates who aren't looking for a job, while active is the opposite (actively applying for jobs on Seek, LinkedIn etc)
Are larger companies using recruitment agencies more, or less than 5 years ago? Why?
Different companies vary a fair bit.
Some outsource the recruitment function completely (called an RPO) where that RPO will have recruiters on site.
Some will do it all themselves, only use recruiters when a very hard and niche role comes up, or times of extreme volume.
I'd say its similar to 5 years ago, despite all the 'disruptions' and AI you hear about constantly, this is my long answer to sitting on the fence
When a recruiter says "He/she is a great candidate" can you actually trust them?
Does your employment contract include a set number of client meetings? Recruiters always want to have coffee with me
Well, I would be worried if a recruiter that I would be paying 10k-15k was presenting me someone they considered an average candidate :)
Short answer, I wouldn't trust them unless I had an existing relationship with them, that the recruiter knows our environment, culture and has had success in the past.
When I was in agency, there was specific KPI's (not written into contract) around both candidate and client meetings.
The most important thing was the budget, if you were failing your budget but could show you were doing X amount of meetings per week, then you could justify it as just 'bad luck'
Like anything you buy from anyone anywhere you learn to understand which ones to trust. Coffee is informal. Step 1 in the process is to understand if you are who you claim to be and if there are any obvious 'red Flags' in your profile. There's no need for a formal panel interview and at this stage nobody wants to waste too much effort/resources on you in case your story doesn't check out. A client probably doesn't want to waste a couple of $K on prometric testing and they are relying on the recruiter to filter down the list of applicants to the best 3 or 4 for direct interviews. The recruiter has a lot at stake, if they send through too many candidates or they send through bad candidates or unqualified candidates or candidates that are of poor quality their client will worst case cancel the account, best case just award it to a competitor. Either outcome possibly sees that specific recruiter fired themselves. What better way then for an informal, no obligation, casual interaction to checkout if you are indeed who you said you were on your CV or LinkedIn profile than a quick cup of coffee.
I meant from the point of view of an employer - recruiters always want to have coffee with me! I always thought it was a KPI thing.
It's a way of 1) establishing a relationship in the hope of possibly getting some business with you (recruit new people for you; 2) gaining more industry knowledge by "picking you brain" for what's new and what's coming up in an area; and 3) networking. Your network as a recruiter is invaluable. You may end up referring one of these recruiters onto a colleague who needs help filling a role.
Coffee is a great way to check someone's cultural fit also, interviews can often be very formal, coffee is great just to have a chat in a casual setting, see more what they're like as a person and if they will fit in with the prospective employer
Red or Blue?
Blue
Why are there so many British recruiters?
There are a lot isn't there?
My 2 cents, recruitment with agency is a sales job, getting visas for recruitment consultants is quite easy, a lot of agencies have global presence, if you're billing well then getting transferred is easy.
If your current company doesn't do it then another company will gladly bring in a proven revenue generator.
Visa restrictions around recruitment are tightening up, so I imagine you will see more locally trained recruiters coming through the ranks
can you get me a job
I never make the final call on who does and doesn't get a job, I can only facilitate ;)
can you facilitate me into a job then :P
I could help, if you're in Melbourne & work within technology :)
Do you think I am still employable, as a contractor?
I am 31, worked 8years at a large govt department, as a BA for around 4 ofthose years, implemented some company wide systems, I quit 3 years ago and just manage my own money for a living (totally different field of work I know), but I’m interested in seeing what’s out there again.
@cloudy:
Everyone is still employable, as long as you have a good story to explain the gaps it's plausible.Go back to old colleagues, people who know you did good work and you know will be able to put in a good recommendation.
Network and find out who's in the market for the system you helped implement, that may be the best way to transition back into a BA role.
@cloudy: When I read comments or posts like this, I always wonder how do people quit a paying job. Can you elaborate more on what exactly is you do by manage your own money, make a living out of it, pay your bills, housing, etc?
I saved up a bit, worked out I should be able to consistently make over 10% per year easy investing in shares and possibly do better if I tried full time. So I quit, and gave myself a few years to prove it. Hopefully in tough times as well as rosey times. Additionally I do know I need to beat the index by a fair bit to justify my time, which I don’t (beat it by that much, but I enjoy my different lifestyle).
Interesting, we have made similar choices…
my suggestion: try to become a consultant to your old employer/competitors, so you work from home and have time to beat the market
I have thought about it, but I left taking a redundancy package, as an “excess” employee. Basically this department had a new commissioner and wanted fresh blood and was willing to let go of old furniture, as they say. Mind you I was in my 20s when I left, so hardly old hehe.
But it would be ironic if the excess employee came back as a consultant.
@jnathanc:
I'm in fin services and support all our technology from a recruitment point of view, feel free to send me a PM if you like, never know if we have something that may be of interest!Funnily enough, I received an application from someone who has spent the last 6 months back in the workforce, prior to that, 2 years and 11 months developing their own share portfolio.
I'm due to speak to them about the role they applied sometime this week, but thought I would mention it to you as a good news story that they got back into the workforce :)
Good to know! :) The only reason why im interested now is because i have a newborn baby and having him and wife at home means i'm not getting anything done. So considering if i should return to doing something useful other than playing with the bub
You’re just a glorified sales person tbh.
Also I’ve never ever got a job via a recruitment company, only directly though the business itself, so I personally think your job is redundant.
Cool story, is there a question?
100% agree that working in agency is a sales role, you have a budget and that's the end goal. Like all jobs, there are good and bad recruiters, unfortunately the good and ethical ones can be hard to find sometimes.
I would disagree that agencies are redundant, I still use them when I have very niche roles and need a specialist with an existing network in that space.
Internally is far different where the recruitment is the core of the role.
You might have gotten a higher paying job in a bigger company through a recruiter. Some jobs are not advertised directly by the company and the firm has a talent seeking agreement through a recruiter, especially for higher management sort of roles. These guys do have some value add. Just saying.
I can testify to this.
Been called up by recruitment agents a few times advertising for a role and I always ask for details on paper / email and quite often they'd tell me they have no formal write-up for the role yet.
They'd usually just call up and bring you in for a quick interview. Saves having to write it up and post it on job pages.This usually means I have to make up my mind right there and then on the spot, and ask all the important / relevant questions with no time to think.
Quite annoying sometimes when it doesn't sound quite a good fit and I get a nagging feeling in the back of my mind.I could always call back but there's some nuance behind doing a follow up call some hours later.
Personal experience tends to vary, I wouldn't have found my current role without a recruiter. I applied via an agency for a role, but didn't get it. I thought that was it, but a couple of weeks later the same recruiter followed up with a different opportunity which I was successful for. Been with the company 10 years now so I'm pretty grateful!
Why are there so many British in that industry and how can we stop this?
I'm genuinely concerned about British immigration to Australia.
Why? Because they are polite?
I answered this earlier actually :)
Easy to make the move abroad if you're billing well, easy to get working visas, but this has tightened up now and you should see more locally trained recruiters coming through
If by "polite" you mean largely alcoholics with strong cocaine habits and are more insular than any other foreign community in the country, then sure.
WOW, nothing like a bit of casual racism based upon ridiculous stereotypes. I can only assume you think you are being funny!
@2ndeffort: You can't apply the term 'racism' to white people, it only works for every other colour of human being.
That is just people in sales in general.
@EightImmortals: There were racism claims in London by Britishers against Indians in the courts, go figure
Get your facts@777: Actually champ I was thinking about a recent court case where the judge pretty much said that anti-discrimination legislation doesn't apply to whites. I'll try and find the link for you…it was a few months back though.
As for your example, a link would also be nice. cheers.
I'm genuinely concerned about British immigration to Australia.
Yeah you're about 230 years too late there, buddy
Who started this trend of creating job titles with the word "partner" at the end? I mean "Talent Acquisition Partner" is just a "Recruiter" isn't it? The other one I saw is "Finance Business Partner". Dig deeper and you'll see they are looking for an "Accountant"!
Depends on the model of the business, in my case, yes it's just a title. My previously title in the same business I was in was 'Recruitment Consultant', but I found that people don't want to talk to consultant's (especially via LinkedIn) as they identify more with agencies.
As a TAP I get far more engagement with the inquiries I send out, I also do partnet specifically with one area of the business and support them.
It also depends on the model, business partners partner specifically with an area of the business, while they may just be an accountant, they may have specific knowledge relating to that business unit.
In the end, you can break down a lot of job titles quite simply :)
Thanks, the partnering with a specific part of the business makes sense.
Hi spook920
I have few questions:
1. When the candidate is successful, they get feedback from Agent who gets the feedback from client. Is that feedback honest or do you filter the feedback?
2. Do you actually send out resumes to everyone or do you filter them? How can someone get a job that they have never done but they really want to get into? E.g. Entry level job.
3. What kind of resumes format do you prefer?
4. What kind of technology industry you are working on? Do you have any vacancy for graduate mechanical engineering job by any chance with 1 year experience?Thanks!
Hi Curtin,
That's a tough one, some managers provide feedback that isn't appropriate and you have to challenge them to give legitimate reason, I always try and provide as honest as possible feedback as that is what will help candidates in their next step.
I get 100's of resumes for every job, I try and do a shortlist of 3-5 CV's to present to the hiring manager, my job is to present the top few candidates not the entire job ad.
Depends on the role, I generally like something simple that addresses the ad, if it was a more creative role (digital, user experience etc) then something more creative and showcasing their portfolio is what I look for.
Avoid big blocks of text, people aren't going to read it, simplify as much as possible.I look after specifically Information technology recruitment :)
I'm not spook but I hire guys like him to find me people. From the other end of this arrangement my answers are:
I would give some feedback to a recruiter but often just a phone call running through why I chose one candidate over another. I know when i worked for multinationals that they used to write up responses. What Spook says is right though, onley the 4 or 5 best candidates get any scrutiny from the client. Part of what i am paying a recruiter for is for them to filter through the 100 applicants and show me the best 3 or 4. i cant set aside 3 days to go through them all and give detailed analysis of every CV.
Hard to break into a new industry, a potential employer is normally looking for the best and most relevant fit possible. If they are going to consider somebody from a non conventional background they will need to see the relevance/trans-portability of a specific candidate. If you leave it to them to make that mental leap you are probably going to end up on the cutting room floor. I would re-write your CV and be creative in showing how your experience in other jobs/experiences is very relevant to the role on offer. My early working life was spent as an officer in the Army. If i wrote a CV full of military jargon about what i did in the Army I would probably have never been hired for a civilian job. I spent time re-writing my CV to explain how things i did in the Army were the equivalent of what employers were looking for. Re-write your CV to be spoecific for jobs you are most interested in and make yourself the closest fit you can manage.
So, I've been through a couple of tech interviews lately and feeling a bit jaded.
Is the game theory optimal strategy to flat-out lie about experience with specific technologies?
If I had said "yes, I have worked with that for 5 years", rather than "I've read about it, and am interested, but have not had an opportunity to use it", I would have gotten to the next stage.
Thoughts? Is there a better way to answer questions like that, or do I just need to wait until a job comes up that directly matches my unusual experience (might as well buy lotto tickets)
Before anyone says "just learn the thing", I can give you a list of things a mile long. I don't have time to learn ALL of them, and almost every job is asking for a different combination. I also can't really demand of my boss that we re-do our projects from scratch because it will help me get another job.
I hire for $XXX,000 roles. Everyone lies and says they're 10%-20% above who they actually are. Which is okay. But if you're going to flat out bullshit in your resume and I catch you (which I will - as I have every time) I'm just going to screw you around and make you do a take-home test or something knowing full well you won't get hired.
The better way is to spend your weekends and free time learning the new technology, or quitting your job and moving to another one that might pay less but expose you to better tech.
Everyone lies and says they're 10%-20% above who they actually are.
Seems that this is where I've been going wrong by just being honest…
edit.
@abb: Yeah, misread your post and made a comment about going into politics but it didn't work once I read it properly. :)
I agree, if you flat out lie, it may get you past the recruiter (i.E me) but what happens when you're doing a tech interview with a seasoned professional with that technology? They're going to know quite quickly if you're full of it…
Everyone exaggerates slightly, as Ausmechkeyboards said, spend your spare time upskilling, you may not have the commercial knowledge but it's a very good start, people appreciate you're making the effort and respect that
spend your spare time upskilling, you may not have the commercial knowledge but it's a very good start, people appreciate you're making the effort and respect that
That's what I have been doing, guess I will keep trying and maybe eventually someone will accept that… after all the people with 7 years real-world experience have jobs? ;)
@abb: As much as anything, it shows you have a passion for what you which is always awesome to see :)
Going to meetups in that area is also an awesome way to upskill and network at the same time, you never know what you will along the grapevine in regards to jobs!
Looking for a job in Melbourne but residing out of state so cant get any recruiter to even look at my CV. Any suggestions ?
That's a tricky one, do you have a concrete date that you will be moving to Melbourne?
If you do, make it crystal clear that you will be in Melb at X date.Some companies get weird about doing virtual interviews, but they come to the same result, it's actually harder to build rapport through video interviews so if you can do it it shows you have strong interpersonal skills.
You could take your current address off your CV, but be prepared for some phone back tracking when they find out, but it will at least give you a slight foot in the door.
I classify job agents in the same category as real estate agents. Glorified middle men who get a crazy amount of money for doing an extremely easy job. Sure, there are some good ones out there who go the extra mile and make a difference but they are very few and far between. My question is, what do you do that justifies the amount of money you charge as a finders fee other than advertising the role which is handed to you by the employer?
not really, most are on about 50-70 grand and need to hit targets or will get the chop
Yes I think you are a little misguided around salary.
A typical consultant will be around 60k-80k as a package, then have the commission on top (which gets VERY heavily taxed)
Small boutiques you will see the best commission (around 50%) but people have no idea who you are so you bill less.
The larger ones, you often need to bill your salary for the quarter before you start making any bonus', then it can go on a sliding scale (very best if you have an AMAZING quarter you might see 30% of your billings).
It's a tough job, you have to know your market, you have to get well known in your market and it is an extremely competitive industry, most of the time it isn't very rewarding.
As Jason said, if you're not billing you're going elsewhere, no one wants to hire a failed salesperson either.
which gets VERY heavily taxed
Surely you just get taxed at the normal income rates set by the ATO like everyone else? Perhaps you are getting a large payment in the one paycheck which makes the tax seem like a lot, but you usually get that extra hit back as a refund at the end of the financial year.
@MrBear:
Perhaps, I was under the impression commission payment was taxed separately to your normal income, I might be wrong about this :)
why its so hard to get even entry in accounting field for people who hold masters training 1 year australian experience all the expertise required where people who never scored well in the same field and just after graduation straight away get full time jobs