Received Water Bill Belonging to Vendor Prior to Settlement

Thenarrator on 11/02/2018 - 09:46
Last edited 11/02/2018 - 12:33 by 1 other user

I had settled an off the plan apartment on 18/12/17 and as part of the settlement adjustment fee that my conveyancer calculated, I have paid for water/sewerage servicing fee of about $30 for the period of 18/12/17 up until 31/12/17.

Recently I received a bill from sydney water for water/sewerage servicing fee of approx $60 from period 24/11/17 - 31/12/17 as well as a fee of approx $20 for water usage balance transfer on 4/12/17. Clearly I shouldnt be paying for these as these fees belong to the developer and I had paid for the fee up to 31/12/17 as per settlement letter from my conveyancer.

I immediated contacted my conveyancer about this. They agreed with me that it should be paid by vendor. They then sent off 2 emails to the developers lawyer to demand payment. Its been 2 weeks and the developers lawyers haven't replied to any of the demands. The payment amounts will be due soon.

I mean, what can I do in this situation? I've told sydney water about this and that I can prove via settlement letter that I have paid for water/sewerage service fee up to 31/12/17 and that they should chase the developer instead. However they just shrugged it off saying this adjustment should have been sorted out by my conveyancer at settlement.

I've googled online and found this to be a pretty common problem. All the responses were to "go see conveyancer who did the settlement", which I did. But nothings happening atm. In the dark and needing of ways to sort this out. Do conveyance normally get an invoice or receipt number from syd water in how they calculated the adjustment? if yes could i supply syd water with that? do i need to sue my conveyancer for negligence? but sue them for $80? i dont know.

TLDR: Sydney Water Chasing me for water/sewerage servicing fee for period prior to settlement of property. Syd water said to see my conveyancer. Conveyancer wrote letter of demand but there's no reply.

Financial

Comments

  • smuggler on 11/02/2018 - 10:01
    +5

    You have nothing to worry about. Tell Sydney Water that you cannot help them and to go through the conveyancer's office. You have no obligation to chase the money up for them.

    If they try and disconnect your water, contact your local MP. I would sue their pants off.

    • Thenarrator on 11/02/2018 - 12:38
      +1

      that brings another question. What happens if apartment owners dont pay water and sewerage service fee? Syd Water cant stop sewer as it is already in place. They cant stop water supply to my unit as typically the whole apartment only have 1 water meter for the whole building. What ramifications are there when owners dont pay water/sewerage fee for apartments?

      • garetz on 11/02/2018 - 13:22
        +2

        Just like you not paying for any other utility, they charge you interest on the owing amount of about 10%, which can compound, when it gets high enough they send it to a debt collector, which then has x amount of years to get the money from you, they can put a default under your name which can affect your credit rating.

  • barbarella on 11/02/2018 - 10:01
    +2

    that is what you pay/paid the conveyancer for…I would say, leave it up to them.
    In the meantime, ensure that Syd water knows that you are chasing up the payment, so that you don't have a bad debt with them…

  • pegaxs on 11/02/2018 - 10:02
    -2

    If you have paperwork saying you didn’t own the property in this time frame, then you’re all sorted. Just wait for the lawyers to get their shit together.

    On the flip side, it’s $80, and I know this is OzB, but I am sure, if on your investment into property, you can’t afford an $80 water bill, we could probably start a go fund me page to help out.

    • Thenarrator on 11/02/2018 - 12:40

      the small amount is probably the reason the vendors lawyers aint doing anything. They're betting that I wont and cant do anything. I mean, whats there to stop them from doing a greater amount?

      • pegaxs on 11/02/2018 - 15:23
        -3

        Cause that's what lawyers do. Sit around all day working out how to shirk off $80 water bills. This is their bread and butter.

        You probably spent anywhere upwards of $500,000 to $750,000 on this apartment. Thousands, if not tens of thousands on lawyering up for conveyancing. And you're posting to a bargain forum seeking assistance over an $80 water bill? If your budget is so tight, then you may want to re-consider investing in anything.

        And please use that old "But it's the principle" chestnut. You will waste more time fluffing about over this than what you ever hope to win "morally".

        As I said above, you didn't own the property at the time, you are not liable for the bill. You paid your lawyer to do this transfer for you. You let them know and you let Sydney water know as well. There is not much more you can do.

        I know a guy with an A200 AMG that needs his car washed, you might be able to offer to do that for the $80…

        • kipps on 11/02/2018 - 15:32
          +1

          sounds like the pro rata estimate used by OP’s conveyancer for water was bad. How did the conveyancer determine the figure?

        • pegaxs on 11/02/2018 - 15:39
          -1

          @kipps: exactly this…

          Or, you know.. tell the conveyancer to do what they were 'effing paid to do!

          I came into this thread thinking it was going to be in the high hundreds, if not thousands of dollars… It's $80. I have wasted more time reading this thread than what $80 is worth.

        • Thenarrator on 11/02/2018 - 20:38
          +1

          @kipps:
          The amount was determined by my purchasing contract with the developer.

  • WreckTangle on 11/02/2018 - 10:04
    +1

    Just pay it already. You win some you lose some. Its $80 and you just spend hundreds of thousands on a property.

    • Yttrium on 11/02/2018 - 12:28
      +5

      No

    • Thenarrator on 11/02/2018 - 12:46
      -1

      Its $80. Am i tapping into some sort of black market? Sydney water black market. Developer black market. steal money

      • pegaxs on 11/02/2018 - 15:06
        +2

        I know, right… It's like a cartel, They get $80 from you, and $80 from someone else, they do it a few more times, and next thing you know they have a $4,000,000 yacht on the harbour…

  • chumlee on 11/02/2018 - 10:06
    +6

    Get the conveyancer to pay it. They should have sorted it on settlement day. That's why you engage them

  • altomic on 11/02/2018 - 11:26
    +3

    Not your problem. Tell Sydney water to go and chase their own debts.

    And then complain to your local member for state parliament providing copies of settlement & bill- "This is an outrage! SW won't listen, blah blah' your MP will write a letter to SW. Some one higher up will wave it.

    $80 is $80. It'll take 5 10 minutes to write a letter/email.

    • Thenarrator on 11/02/2018 - 13:46

      Im wandering into unknown territory. has this worked in the past? Have you had experience in this

      • altomic on 11/02/2018 - 13:53
        +1

        you would have talked to some phone jockey with zero power.

        you need to move up in the ranks to get any thing done.

        utilising the state MP , which your taxes pay for, is one way to do that.

        or write, yes -actually write to Sydney Water, and ask where it states in their service contract with you that you are responsible for water usage from before you signed the supply contract with them.

        and go to the ombudsman.

        and then claim from the water company the cost of the time that it has taken you to sort out their stupidity. send them a bill.

        $80 is $80.

        • Thenarrator on 11/02/2018 - 13:57
          +1

          Sydney water would just fire back on the stupidity of my conveyancer

        • altomic on 11/02/2018 - 14:00
          -1

          @Thenarrator: that's their problem. hence escalating it

  • Dave Id on 11/02/2018 - 11:39
    +2

    Lodge a complaint with the pertinent Ombudsman's Department.

  • josetann on 11/02/2018 - 12:03
    +1

    When did you sign up for water service? The date you signed up for service is the date that you pay from. If you signed up before the property was in your name…why? Did you give them a future date to start service? Either way, tell them to not bring forward any charges prior to your sign-up date. Your settlement letter is mostly irrelevant, it would help prove that you were not actually living in the property before the date you signed up for service, that's it.

    If you did sign up before your move-in date, then you owe Sydney Water for usage as of the date you signed up. There's two agreements in place here; one between you and Sydney Water, and one between you and the vendor.

    If I'm wrong, please correct me. We've received bills for whoever rented the house before us (we're renters), but have never been responsible for them. Yes, we "return to sender" most, but some are actually addressed to "Occupant". I can't imagine that you'd be responsible for the prior occupant's/owner's bill, even if the prior owner was the developer.

    • barbarella on 11/02/2018 - 13:22
      +3

      it doesn't work like that when a property is purchased

      • josetann on 11/02/2018 - 13:44

        Any time a property is purchased? Or just the first time when it's built? I can't see how it'd be fair for someone buying a house to be responsible for paying utility charges accrued before they became the owner. It makes as much sense as getting a bill from Bunnings for the materials the builder used for a new build.

        What if you did everything by the book, bought the house, tenants move out and leave behind a $5k unpaid water bill? Let's say you can even prove the $5k was for usage before settlement (tenants move out the day of settlement and the meter read is done later that day or the next). Who would Sydney Water deem responsible for that bill? What would happen if it was not paid?

        If I were the OP, I'd pay the $80 and move on. Unless I were having a really bad day, then I might fight it until the next bill came.

      • Thenarrator on 11/02/2018 - 13:55
        +1

        when purchasing an off the plan property, when exactly does owner enter into a contract with sydney water?

  • jsb on 11/02/2018 - 12:44
    +3

    From what I read, this looks like your conveyancer's fault. If the developer has already paid till 31st December and settlement is before that date, then this amount is adjusted and you have to pay for the period after the settlement to the developer for the excess amount that he has paid at the time of settlement. In the eyes of utility provider it is still paid till 31st December and then conveyancer informs the utility provider of change of ownership and effective date. Looks like your conveyancer messed up as clearly in the eyes of utility provider, they have not received the payment till full 31st Dec. And you are the new owner and you are liable to pay. Old usage charges are different story

    • Thenarrator on 11/02/2018 - 13:52
      +1

      Yes, the developer has paid till 31/12/17 and I have paid for my portion from 18/12/17 - 31/12/17 as per settlement adjustment letter. How did my conveyancer know the amount to settle? they must've been informed of by sydney water yes? if they have, they must've correspondence/evidence from sydney water yes? now where can i get those to prove my case?

      Unless conveyance never had those and just pulled a figure out of their ass guessing the water settlement adjustment fee.. thats sh*t.

      • djkelly69 on 11/02/2018 - 14:16
        +2

        I suggest you read your purchase contract.

        Generally for OTP units it will say due to rates searches not being available at the time of settlement, we will do adjustments on the amounts of X for council rates and Y for water rates.

        It should then deal with what happens with the actual assessments when they are issued (usually to be sent to the developer to be paid, but not always).

        • Thenarrator on 11/02/2018 - 14:51
          +1

          Yes you are exactly right.

          Clause from my purchasing contract:
          If, at completion, a separate assessment for water and sewerage rates in respect of the property for the quarter current at completion has not bee issued, then:
          a) no regard is to be had to the actual separate assessment when it issues;
          b) the purchaser agrees to accept $200 as amount payable for water and sewerage rates for the property fpr the quarter current at completion which amount must be adjusted (on the basis that it is paid) on completion in accordance with standard prosivion 14; and
          c) the vendor must pay any assessment of water and sewerage rates which may be issued for the property or the parcel for the quarter current at completion when such assessment is issued.

          I have done (b) at settlement and paid for my portion up until end of the quarter i.e. 31/12/17 and it clearly says in (c) vendor is to pay the rest. Now the problem is that the vendor ISNT paying and I AM being debt collected and this purchasing contract has already ENDED as I have already settled.

        • djkelly69 on 11/02/2018 - 15:12
          +1

          @Thenarrator: Are you being debt-collected, or just being dramatic? I am sure you said above it wasn't even due for payment yet.

          If it hasn't been paid by the due date, then I would start to worry about it (ie. push more to have it paid).

          Remember the developer probably has 50-200 of these to pay, so will be delaying the payment as long as possible.

          Also the contract being completed is not a huge concern, as this clause will explicitly or impliedly not merge on completion (because it can't be done prior to completion).

  • Thenarrator on 11/02/2018 - 14:00

    This, what in the world does this mean. Source: https://www.sydneywater.com.au/SW/your-home/moving--renovati…

    "What happens to your account when you move?
    Unlike energy providers, your Sydney Water account is linked to your property address.

    When you buy, sell or move to a new property, you'll have a new account number linked to your new property address. You don't need to set up a new account with us.

    We update property ownership details based on information from Land and Property InformationThis external link will open in a new window. It can take six to eight weeks from settlement for the ownership information to update. This means you'll sometimes receive an overdue notice as your first bill.

    If you have any concerns about the charges on your new bill, contact your conveyancer or call us on 13 20 92."

    This is exactly whats happening and it is definitely quite common.

  • Davo1111 on 11/02/2018 - 14:52

    …have you contacted the water provider?

    • Thenarrator on 11/02/2018 - 14:54

      Yes, please read the post.

  • billy3000 on 11/02/2018 - 19:18
    +1

    happened to us (in Vic) .. ours was a new place and the developer and builder were arguing.. we had a completely useless lying real estate agent who made me feel ill every time I spoke to her..

    tried a cpl emails/calls to conveyancer, developer, realestate agent and calls to the water company to no avail.

    in the end I just paid the $50 banked the mental health bonus from not having to deal with the *uckers :)

  • JediJan on 12/02/2018 - 08:26
    +2

    I would post a registered, formally written letter advising Sydney Water that in no circumstances are you liable for that particular charge as you were not residing or had ownership of that particular address 24/11 to 31/12 inclusive, so is not your responsibility to do so. I would attach a JP witnessed "certified as true and correct" copy to this letter also. Cc at bottom of letter to the vendor and your MP so they know you are quite serious and will not cave. Say it is for them to contact the vendor for bills prior to your acquisition date, as direct and unemotional as you can. I would tell them that if they persist harassing you for payment of another's bill you will seek legal intervention. I like the idea of contacting your local MP for support too. Usually there is an agreement made and specified in your purchase contract regarding any outstanding utilities and council rates bills before acquisition. Well that is what I would do; $80 is still $80 and I wouldn't be accepting or paying for someone else's bills. Sounds like the vendor is trying it on as probably has done so many times in the past and the new owners have paid up rather than attempt to have the matter sorted.

  • pandabun on 12/02/2018 - 10:28
    +1

    Does the letter directed to your name? Or does it say to resident of bla bla bla?
    If latter, don’t worry about it. You’ve already notified sydney water and your conveyancer who deals with the seller/developer.

  • djkelly69 on 12/02/2018 - 11:59
    +2

    Everyone saying 'it is not your bill, don't pay it' is wrong. Water and council rates (including water consumption) attach to land/the property, not to the account holder/consumer personally. See s.61 of the Sydney Water Act for example. You purchase the property, you take on the debt. This is why you usually do council and water rates searches prior to settlement, and make sure any outstanding bills are paid at settlement - to ensure you are not lumped with someone else's bill.

    It is different to consumption only bills such as gas or electricity.

    However, in the case of off-the-plan units in particular, it is quite rare that a rates search will be available at the time of settlement due to the strata plan only recently being registered and new accounts for the individual units not being created. This is why the contract will set out how it is to be dealt at settlement, usually by way of an adjustment on a pre-determined figure as noted in the posts above.

    In short, OP has a contractual liability for the outstanding water bill, but also has a separate contractual right to seek payment of that amount from the vendor.

    • Thenarrator on 12/02/2018 - 15:09
      +1

      this seem to be my understanding. you seem knowledgable in this field. Is it a common tactic for vendor to dismiss these demands from owners for low amounts?

      • djkelly69 on 12/02/2018 - 16:21
        +1

        I would say it is common for vendors to be slow to pay these amounts. As I said above, wait for the due date of the payment and then worry about it - they are likely waiting until the last possible day to pay it.

        • Thenarrator on 12/02/2018 - 18:07

          the problem is, it has already been due. it was due on 4/2/18. i asked sydney water to delay for 3 more weeks. What are my options when that time comes? my credibility is on the line.

        • djkelly69 on 12/02/2018 - 18:52

          @Thenarrator: I would just pay it. If they end up paying what they are supposed to, it will just put your account into credit. If not, you are out $80. Not the end of the world.

    • JediJan on 12/02/2018 - 17:02

      Informative answer thank you. But if you purchase, say any item, say a car, and the previous owner did not pay a personal loan he had (no security interest, lean, no caveat), you would assume you are not liable for that loan? Would this principle apply to purchase of real estate only?

      When friend in Qld purchased a house it was in his contract that the previous owner was liable for all utilities expenses and prorata council rates and charges etc., until the date of his acquisition. (Not certain; he may have forwarded the bills on, or his solicitor may have … he was leasing out his other property through them). I questioned these bills at the time and he said he was in no way going to pay those bills; as in the contract not his liability. I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that would be the case with most real estate purchases.

      I guess it sounds okay that you meet the contractual liability (to Water Board) and then claim back from the vendor though. Can imagine some vendors to be lack lustre in refunding in a timely manner though. But I would have expected the Water Board to be more helpful. I'd provide them with the proof you have already paid the vendor, and would expect them not to hassle you further.

      • djkelly69 on 12/02/2018 - 17:37
        +1

        the previous owner did not pay a personal loan he had on car (no security interest, no caveat), you would assume you are not liable for that loan?

        Assuming the loan is unsecured, then you are not liable. Personal loan means personal liability, ie. they can chase the person who took out the loan, not the owner of the asset which the loan may or may not have been used to purchase. Obviously if there is a registered security interest over the property or asset (car, boat, land, etc), then it is different.

        Would this apply to purchase of real estate only?

        It specifically applies to council and water rates/fees, and strata levies when purchasing real estate. It could apply in any number of other situations if legislation says so.

        AFAIK, what you have said is correct for all standard land contracts - vendor is liable for rates, etc, up to the date of settlement. But vendor's liability to pay for such charges generally finishes on settlement, so outstanding bills go to the new owner and become their responsibility. It is quite common for there to be delays in sending rates cheques and updating details after settlement, which means overdue notices (which may have actually been paid after settlement) are also common.

        Water authority can't do anything with/to the vendor as their contract is no longer with them, it is with the new owner. If there is some sort of other agreement in place in regards to payment (as in this case), it is up to the parties to that agreement to enforce it.

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