Legal Fees, Help!

thewrongbeckie on 20/12/2017 - 10:10

Hi all,

I recently received a shocking legal bill from a family lawyer and i would like to find out if anyone know about professionalism/code of conduct a lawyer should display.

My case was a pretty simple one, where i engaged the lawyer to review the prenup agreement which my partner's lawyer has drawn up. And by after the initial 2 meetings, i told him i was ready to sign. But the lawyer kept putting it off, advising me that I should not sign it and that he is concern about my decision to sign. The debacle went on and on and on, and in the end, he has charged me a fortune for his service. Nothing changed in the end, i was still going to sign it.

In the end, none of the prenup clauses change, and he merely added how much my assets were worth in the contract.

  1. In each of the face to face meeting with this lawyer, i asked him how much the cost will be after the meeting, he said that I don't have to worry about it.
  2. During negotiation of cost, he has given me an estimation of how much the service would cost, Between $X and $XX and i told him it was too high, he said: look, maybe it would cost $X.
  3. I asked him a few times how much costing has been till date, his reply: "I don't know, could be… $X, $Y $Z", the answer of cost to date is vague and he did not reveal how much the cost were to date.
  4. When the detail bill came, i noticed that he even charge me for reading an email from me, i.e. "Hi D, Monday 9am works for me. See you then" or "Hi D, what's the latest status?" - a lot of times i had to chase him up as he said he would do something in the meeting but still have not done it after a week.

The bill came up to be $XX amount, which is the higher side of the scale - which i could not justify with the amount of service that he has provided and has asked for a itemised bill. I have my own itemised version to compare against - which is not as high as his bill.

So, my questions are:

  1. Is it common for lawyers to avoid the cost-to-date discussion when you ask them to provide it?
  2. He led me to believe that the cost might be on the low side $X, but he charged me the high end amount $XX. Is this considered some form of misleading statement?
  3. A lot of the cost associated are: Perusing email (which was email to confirm appointments from me, or my email to him follow up on status), is this normal?
  4. I'm sensing that he's trying to prolong the legal process, in hopes to drive more revenue?

I feel helpless as I can't do anything - he is one of the more influential lawyer and going against him would be quite a dumb thing to do. And i don't have a lot of money to lose.

Has anyone has similar experience in dealing with lawyers?
And what can i do moving forward?

General Discussion

Comments

  • Baysew on 20/12/2017 - 10:14

    Get your partner to pay the bill.

    • thewrongbeckie on 20/12/2017 - 10:16

      Thanks. He advised me to get another lawyer who he recommended but i refused and decided to stick with this one.
      I take ownership for my decision, so I'm not going to ask him to pay for this.

      • Baysew on 20/12/2017 - 10:23
        +3

        i don't have a lot of money to lose

        It not about choice of lawyer. It would seem the he wanted a pre-nup agreement to protect his assets, therefore it would seem appropriate he gets to pay for this. After all you will be a couple anyway.

        If the estimate was for $xx and the bill was $xx , then the estimate would appear correct.
        Lawyers will charge for every minute, every call, email, photo-copy, discussion they do.

  • sw0rdy on 20/12/2017 - 10:19
    +6

    how much? Hard to comment when you don't know the figure.

    • thewrongbeckie on 20/12/2017 - 10:29
      +1

      Let's just say that the bill came out $5k < $XX < $7k - it's a bit too much for dealing with a simple case like mine, in which he did not change.

      • Geoff-bargain on 21/12/2017 - 10:35
        +1

        sounds like a hell of a lot to me for what it was

  • Halo375 on 20/12/2017 - 10:29

    There’s nothing you can do, pay the bill, learn the lesson and move on.

  • [Deactivated] on 20/12/2017 - 10:30
    +1

    There's a handy pdf. from the Legal Services Commissioner about how to dispute a bill. Should be a similar one for your state.
    IMO you'll have to wear the costs (or sort it out with your partner) as they will charge for anything and everything they can. But at least it'll give you an idea of how to proceed if you do want to take it further.

    • thewrongbeckie on 20/12/2017 - 10:47

      Yeap, i found that document as well. But as he is pretty influential, I'm not sure how far this will go. DO you know of people who has used this and won?

      • [Deactivated] on 20/12/2017 - 11:20

        Not personally, no, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
        Something like this would either be settled directly with the law firm or go through a tribunal. In either case, the result wouldn't be all that public.

        Maybe a chat with Legal Services Commission or a legal clinic would help? Even if they say "Nope, this all looks fine to us.", at least you've heard that from someone who has a bit more legal experience than just getting a good deal on Eneloops. :)

      • Geoff-bargain on 21/12/2017 - 10:36

        Did he give you a list of all his fees before you started?

        • thewrongbeckie on 21/12/2017 - 11:47

          He broke the fees down to a bracket of 6 minutes and an hour block. There were some indicative admin fees etc as well. He did not specify what activities of his fees were before he started.

  • Fredorishi on 20/12/2017 - 10:37

    Going through the other end of things at the moment. (Family Court after divorce) The one that boggled my mind was $1500 for photocopying!! And yes. They charge for every. single. little. thing. Read E-mail from me, Read e-mail from her, etc. etc. That said, I've had written estimates both at the start and now that it looks like it's going for trial. Big dollars. That's just lawyers.

    • thewrongbeckie on 20/12/2017 - 10:46

      Feels like a trap the minute you enter into a conversation with them.

  • [Deactivated] on 20/12/2017 - 10:41

    Reminds me about 10 years ears ago I got a larger than expected legal bill for "professional services rendered" . Fortunately, included in my invoice envelope was another clients extremely confidential paperwork. I requested a meeting with the lawyer and questioned the bill and his professionalism. The bill was reduced to $0.

    • [Deactivated] on 20/12/2017 - 10:41

      Cool story bro but what's with the ears

    • thewrongbeckie on 20/12/2017 - 10:45

      That's really lucky….

  • [Deactivated] on 20/12/2017 - 10:52
    +1

    The reading an email fee is standard and I've even seen an itemised stapling fee before. Unfortunately OP, I think your best bet is just a verbal negotiation. If that fails, it might well cost you much more plus time wasted to escalate things.

  • ms_caz on 20/12/2017 - 11:25

    We used a lawyer for a probate case - they charged in 6 minute increments. Every phone call, every email, even if answered by the receptionist.

  • l005e on 20/12/2017 - 12:02
    +1

    Your rights in relation to legal costs
    The following avenues are available to you if you are not happy with the bill:
    -requesting an itemised bill;
    -discussing your concerns with them;
    -having costs assessed;
    -applying to set aside cost agreement.
    There may be other avenues available in your State or Territory (such as mediation).
    For more information about your rights, visit local law society or law institute (or download it from their website).

  • tsunamisurfer on 20/12/2017 - 12:26
    +2

    I don't have a solution for you OP but I'd like to commend you on being one of the few who took the time and effort to draft up a Binding Financial Agreement to protect your individual assets. I wish more people, including myself did it.

    As a guide, here are what others charge.

    $2200 to draft one up, and and $880 to review a BFA.

    https://birmanride.com.au/people/family-law-resolution/bindi…

    $2,475 to draft.

    https://www.aussielegal.com.au/legal_kits/binding_financial_…

    So $5k - $7k is steep!

  • dcep on 20/12/2017 - 12:51

    tough luck

    you didn't ask for a fee cap before you started

    • thewrongbeckie on 20/12/2017 - 14:24

      I did. And the lawyer said that is not the way he works.

      • Ughhh on 27/02/2018 - 10:42

        Then you need to find someone else?

  • Scab on 20/12/2017 - 13:04
    -1

    Lucky he wasn't a barrister, I got charged $70K for a deceased estate dispute.

    Anyway, ask for an itemised bill and go through it.

    • dcep on 20/12/2017 - 14:03
      +4

      prolly should've gone with barista, only costs $3 a day.

      • ThithLord on 20/12/2017 - 14:52
        +1

        Where the hell are you getting a $3 coffee? lmao

        • [Deactivated] on 11/01/2018 - 12:21

          My ATM Voucher for 7/11 gets me 3

  • onetwothreefour on 20/12/2017 - 13:08
    +3

    Sue him, but you'll need to get a lawyer to help you.

  • antonthenet on 20/12/2017 - 14:00

    Itemised bill.

    • thewrongbeckie on 21/12/2017 - 11:49

      I have asked for itemised bill and it was provided to me. What was upsetting was that i felt that he was trying to lengthen the discussion even after i have agreed to sign.

  • fallentenshi on 20/12/2017 - 14:14

    yea ask for an itemised bill and if he does timesheet, ask for timesheet as well.
    You do have legal rights by disputing the bill. If he doesn't do anything, you can make complaint to Law Institute or Legal Services Board. Ask them to help you?
    Did the lawyer ever given you an engagement letter to sign? Does it mention how the bill will be calculated? Usually they quote their charge out rate.

    • thewrongbeckie on 20/12/2017 - 14:27

      The engagement letter just spells out the rate, by a bracket of 6 minutes to an hour. Yes he did but did not specify how he will charge.
      I'm just afraid if i dispute, it will be in the lawyer's favor and i will have to pay extra.

  • -.- on 20/12/2017 - 14:35

    OP, which state are you in?

    • thewrongbeckie on 20/12/2017 - 20:08

      Based in Victoria

      • -.- on 21/12/2017 - 09:19
        +1

        Always attempt to resolve cost disputes with the lawyer directly first. You can gain some leverage by threatening to make a complaint to the LSBC (Victorian Legal Services Board and Commissioner). It's important that you act quickly, you only have thirty days from the receipt of an itemised bill to lodge a complaint. More info here: http://lsbc.vic.gov.au/?page_id=3077

        I would also make an appointment with your local community legal centre. It's free and they will give you some more options. Locations here: http://www.fclc.org.au/cb_pages/getting_legal_help.php

  • [Deactivated] on 21/12/2017 - 09:50
    +1

    All lawyers have to registered with the relevant State?Territory Law Society. Other people have mentioned in Victoria that it is the Legal Service Board. You can lodge a complaint against your lawyer with them. It should be free.

    However, as other people have stated, you need to go through the itemised bill and make notes on what or any entries you disagree with. You should then raise this directly with the lawyer, also referring to your previous conversations with him in regards to billing. In most circumstances, they will reduce the bill to ensure a payment. If not lodge a complaint.

    The biggest complaint against lawyers are legal costs and there are strict guidelines on legal charges. All lawyers from Senior Associate down are subject to hourly billing targets and they will try it on to meet their target. They will negotiate a reduced fee, but only if you persist.

    • thewrongbeckie on 21/12/2017 - 10:42

      This lawyer that I'm dealing with is a partner. Does he have targets as well?

      • [Deactivated] on 22/12/2017 - 10:05

        Normally, a Partner is the owner/part owner of the firm. They are paid out of the profits of the business, so not normally on billable hours. Small practices should run along the same lines, but sometimes, anything goes.

        Your recourse is to dispute what entries on the bill you believe are incorrect/was not necessary or part of your instructions/time spent inflated, based on your own opinion of what occurred. If you identify any issues and they also correlate with the concerns you previously raised with the lawyer, then you should challenge the bill.

        You entered into a contract for services, if you can show that those services were not adequate/failed to follow instructions/overpriced based on agreement, then you have every right to challenge. However, if you can not show that the services were poor, or billing suspicious , only that they were expensive, to which you agreed to pay, then obviously, you have no claim.

  • HeWhoKnows on 21/12/2017 - 11:34
    +1

    If the charges fell within the costs agreement which YOU signed then you must pay. You can however take the matter to the Law Society and have them review the costs, liase with your lawyer and make a decision on your behalf.
    However like I say, if they fell within the costs agreement you probably dont have any justification for over-charging regardless of the outcome. This is becaase lawyers are paid by the hour or a fixed fee as with probabte. Not by the outcome. Ask any criminal that was found guilty.

    Good luck!

  • Brainwhacker on 21/12/2017 - 17:19

    There are lawyers who can offer a "fixed fees" structure for such work. Law is a very lucrative profession - good for making money hence you will always find fees are exorbitant.
    A legal estate planner told me once that lawyers make the most money from divorce/dispute proceedings and cases where there are no wills. So what you are trying to do is good. If you were to ask the lawyer for an itemised bill as the first step as suggested above you should achieve some success and can proceed for a review if this is nbot sufficient especially if the exercise was being stalled by the lawyer.

  • UnrealMacaw on 02/01/2018 - 21:53

    I may have missed it, but did you sign a costs agreement or only discuss one?

    • thewrongbeckie on 10/01/2018 - 14:13

      I signed it, which i shouldn't have. Apparently, you don't have to sign it.

      • [Deactivated] on 11/01/2018 - 08:03

        If you allow work to be conducted on your matter, it is implied that you have accepted the terms of the Costs Agreement, whether signed or not.

        You can still dispute a legal bill, as outlined previously.

        Have you detailed your concerns to the lawyer?

        • thewrongbeckie on 11/01/2018 - 13:18

          I have and he has rejected the concern and asked me to pay in instalments, but i don't think the work performed is equivalent to the price he asked for and hence i'm seeking to make a complaint.

  • thewrongbeckie on 26/02/2018 - 15:57
    +3

    Updates on the post, I'm documenting this as they may be others in similar situation with legal bill and feel helpless (like the way that I was in).

    I have contact the Victorian Legal Services Board Comissioners (VLSC-http://lsbc.vic.gov.au/) and told them about my case. I stated the reason why i thought the legal bill charged was unfair and disputed the legal bill (within 30 days of receiving the itemised bill), and lodge a complaint to investigate.

    In short, the lawyer was willing to settle as there was a breach of conduct on their behalf. VLSC was very prompt and helpful throughout the whole process.

    If you think your legal bill was unfair, you should:

    1. Request for itemised bill
    2. Discuss with your lawyer to see if you can settle with them directly
    3. If unable to agree on middle ground, you can always try to seek professional help or/and 3rd party opinion - don't just pay the bill and let it slide.

    - Please be aware that you need to lodge the complaint within the timeframe specified - with VLSC 30 days upon itemised bill was sent to you. If you missed the boat or refuse to pay, the lawyer can sue you and this will result in even bigger headache.
    4. State your case - the reason you don't agree with the legal bill, and the amount you are willing to settle on

    The process upon that:

    1. The legal commissioner will assess your case, and see if it is viable to open a file for your claim. If there's no grounds to begin with, a case will not be opened.
    2. The case will then be assigned to a case officer, whom you will submit all documentations to.
    3. The case officer will assess the case, interview both parties (if needed) and try to find a middle ground for both party.
    4. If unable to find a middle ground, they will hire a professional assessor to assess how much it cost for all the work done etc.
    5. The professional assessor will come up with a figure suggested.

    Note that:

    • You don't have to pay your legal bill upon lodging the complaint, as the bill is not payable during the time of assessment.
    • There will not be any late payment charges incurring during the dispute.
    • Only pay the settlement amount when you receive a confirmation email from the Legal Commissioners
    • Take note of the charge by hour, it can accelerate and rack up the bill super fast. I found out that $500/hour for legal fees is extremely expensive. You can usually get a good lawyer at around $300-350/hr
    • Request estimated cost from your lawyers even before/at the first meeting, cost should be an estimated figure, not a range. More cost disclosure : http://lsbc.vic.gov.au/?page_id=4317
    • Keep a documentation on events that has transpired - what date, time, what happened - be it a phone call/email/face to face meeting

    I have learned my lesson through the hard way unfortunately, i hope this helps someone else's dispute against a legal bill.

    • Splashtash on 02/03/2018 - 23:18

      INteresting read- i havent had to come across this personally but it would be good information to pass onto clients, thanks :)

    • KBZ on 03/03/2018 - 09:18

      Thanks for the update OP. Glad you got your resolution even better you told us how it ended and procedure for future OZBs who have a similar issue.

  • [Deactivated] on 27/02/2018 - 10:31
    +1

    Thanks for sharing and well done on your perseverance.

  • Dr Prepper on 04/03/2018 - 16:50

    Only cowboys give advice on Pre-nups (Financial agreements in Aus)

    At a Law Cover CPD we were told:

    • What ever you do never give advice on financial agreements as the law is completely unsettled and very likely to give rise to a professional negligence claim;

    • Any lawyer charging $1000-$5,000 for a binding financial agreement is nuts. A claim could exceed $2 million with Sydney Real estate prices and LawCover policies are only capped at $2million. If you need more cover then $2million bracket is something like $20,000 per year(or more) ;and

    *Lawyers may only be covered for each year of paid cover. The standard limitation period of 6 years may not apply to some professional negligence claims e.g because it is unfair to expect a plaintiff to sue if the damage is unknown.

    Now I do not wish you any bad luck in your marriage but if you do separate and sue your cowboy lawyer he/she is likely to lose their house over an invoice of a couple thousand dollars.

    • thewrongbeckie on 04/03/2018 - 21:46

      Sue him on the basis of professional negligence? He has asked me to sign a understanding of effects of prenup if anything happens. I doubt I still can sue him because of that?

      • Dr Prepper on 05/03/2018 - 11:55

        Your dopey lawyer's disclaimer/signed understanding is like using an umbrella to stop a falling grand piano. That is actually the graphic on the notes in our CPD for this topic. If the relationship ends get advice about suing your lawyer. Do not be put off by that signed understanding.

        • thewrongbeckie on 05/03/2018 - 13:02

          Curious as well, if a lawyer doesn't give advice on Pre-nups, then what are the roles that they are playing in reviewing the pre-nup?

  • chumlee on 05/03/2018 - 11:58

    Next time be smart and seek legal advice from the ozbargain community like many others do

  • [Deactivated] on 06/03/2018 - 09:15

    Some lawyers think they are bullet-proof. To do the job, you need to have a lot of confidence in your ability and to have ambition. The legal industry feeds on this and is a recipe for a very toxic environment. Add to this the "cowboy" element and you get the answer to your question.

    When you seek out the advice of a specialist to a problem in your life, mostly you are looking to be told what you can do, not what you cannot. A good lawyer will always balance advice, providing qualifications of potential negatives on any positive outcomes.

    The law is like science, it is not really ever settled. Case law can last a couple of hundred years or more, but a particular nuance or new argument, can and does overturn accepted legal decisions.

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