Given they have such large land blocks, you'd think having 2 driveways would be the norm, especially for the large family?
Massive block of land, small kitchen, small bathroom, small bedrooms… seems to be the norm
Wouldn't it be terrible if a big tall tree fell one morning and blocked all traffic to and from the single acess road…
Cause it was historically unusual to own more than 1 vehicle.
Why pay to build 2 driveways when you only own 1 car?
Probably need to be more specific in the question then..
It wasn't until the 80's that 2 car households became the norm (as I recall)
@nautic: That doesn't contradict anything they said? If it became the norm "in the 80's", I wouldn't expect it to be a standard feature on early 80's homes.
@nautic: Even so. If it became the norm in the late 80's I wouldn't expect every single new housing development to immediately have double driveways. Not least because only half of households have two or more cars even today.
I don't know who has all these cars, to be honest.
Our family of 2 adults and 4 kids got a second car last year for the first time due a to a job change. The change has been reversed and I am keen to go back to one car.
But the stats show something like 18m vehicles in a population of 25m. So there must be plenty of houses with more cars than people to drive them.
@bobs burgers:
Thank you for your contribution to the national road network budget from your rego fees ;-)
So why is your title " Older Houses" ?
Because they were built before Americanisation of our country occured.
Double driveways is now a human rights issue
?
@nautic: this is how trolling works. 1. Say stupid comment about issue. 2. Some one replys and puts you back in your place. 3. Attack the person, not the reply to your stupid comment.
Well done, troll.
You have to remember land was cheap back then and it was the cost of building something on it that represented most of the cost of a home, so people didn't build double driveways or double carports unless required. It was entirely possible the wife stayed home back then too.
Yep, and don't forget the relative price of concrete.
In my suburb plenty of old homes don't even have a single driveway, just twin two-foot-wide tracks for the wheels, with grass in between.
When it's 1985 and your block of land in Blacktown cost $1000 and a driveway was $200, you're not wasting an extra $150 for more concrete in the middle or at the edges.
Woah land was that cheap then in 1985???
Used to be even cheaper before the First Fleet arrived.
People didn't want the whole front of their home (and suburb) dominated by ugly driveways and garages?
People didn't have as many cars?
People knew that in the future we would car share / move to a model where vehicles are on demand?
The Jetsons made us believe we would have flying vehicles soon
Back in the olden days people walked to places.
Up a hill with homemade snow shoes and carrying their baby sister on their back and the groceries and in the rain?
lol
What a strange thread.
The main answer is that until quite recently there was little purpose to house so many cars, and the car accommodations look ugly.
Remember that most of the housing stock was built before multiple car ownership was common, and the most desirable housing stock was often built before cars at all!
People value the appearance of things in addition to the convenience, and a McMansion driveway in a traditional neighbourhood will lower the appeal to most buyers.
The second part is a factor that some suburban planners felt having limited vehicle access would make neighbourhoods safer, less traffic prone and theoretically more desirable, so many estates were designed as cul-de-sacs.. It hasn't panned out that way, but some people continue to think having a lot of car supporting infrastructure is desirable.
Although the way you worded it wasn't great, I'm not sure why you were negged so much. I like mskeggs response(which is almost always the case as her responses seem well thought out and answer the actual question) however I also think that it probably has more to do with money nowadays.
I have often wondered why so many developments have only one driveway in. It doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't matter how many cars a household has but if there is more than one car in a development (and I think it's fair to say that chances are 99%) then there can be 2 vehicles going opposite ways. Why wouldn't there be a shared driveway wide enough to accommodate 2 cars?
Driveway widths and maximum gradients and other specification are usually dictated by the local council as the driveway needs to transition to the footpath and local road. So it depends from council to council what is acceptable. Now days councils review and approve proposed driveways when assessing the development application of a new home's construction plans.
Driveway entrance on council side of boundary:
Wider driveway entrances are usually only reserved for commercial sites as vehicles will frequently need to pass each other. Whereas for residential driveways, vehicles passing each other would tend to be infrequent. It is also a safety issue as you will lose sight of the footpath whilst exiting if another vehicle is entering (even worse if you're backing up). Therefore councils have generally adopted the 'narrow' option unless a wider one is needed for business/commercial purposes. Although, I have seen many properties in new development sites around Brisbane with driveways wide enough to accommodate two vehicles passing each other. In theory these driveways are not to Brisbane City Council standard, but I haven't heard of anyone getting a fine.
Driveway within private boundary:
I don't recall there being any limit to driveway widths within your own property.
Limited accesses to blocks of a suburb:
In fact both mskeggs and nautic are correct! Councils like them, because the narrower, windy carriageways act as a speed calming effect. Residents like it because the short roads and cul-de-sacs generally create less through traffic so they feel safer and potentially better resale value. The developers love it even more because they can save money on asphalt pavement costs, which can be expensive.
@ozkiwi75: Absolutely, and add to this, its not yet been seen to be a sexy/wow factor by The Block judges!!
@ozbargainer888 - now if only i could have an alternative account so i can up my comments, and downvote all the others !! wouldn't that even out things?
Why wouldn't there be a shared driveway wide enough to accommodate 2 cars?
It's almost as if they make more money by cramming as many units in as they can.
OP, please read what you've written before you hit 'post comment'
There is a fair chance OP is "catching up on some rest".
Never the less, it is interesting to consider just how ubiquitous car ownership has affected the way we think and design the places we live.
And how car free zones in cities etc. are so appealing to wander around.
nope, ip got blocked from accesing the site, strangely enough. but of course you were onto that right?
but of course you were onto that right?
No idea about IP blocking. I was implying from the odd post and some of the strange replies you made that you might have had a couple of drinks before posting and had gone off to bed.
@mskeggs: i see, so why don't you share with us which strange replies that you believed i had made, now that you mentioned it.
interesting also how you know i love a good drink or two, especially with all them alcoholic bargains on this site that i must admit have gotten the better of me.
@nautic:
Mainly saying human rights is feminism, and that single drive ways were a money saving trick 'to sucker in the gullibles."
@mskeggs: i am sorry, but just because you don't understand something doesn't make it strange… feminism means equal rights, not human rights, and equal rights means equal work opportunities, which therefore means an equal number of cars for most families, such as one for the wife and one for the husband. was that.. easier to understand for you ?
@nautic:
But that isn't what you wrote.
Chumlee made a joke that the Americanisation of Australia resulted in more cars and a mindset that driveways were now so important they were a human right.
Your response 'you mean feminism?' I interpreted to mean you were being deliberately obtuse, and though I didn't neg you, others did, so I think probably made the same conclusion.
Your explanation here that you meant increased female workforce participation was a driver for additional car ownership makes your point more clear. For what it is worth, the stay at home mums i knew growing up in the 1970s/80s had the car, while the husband caught the train or bus to work. Back then it was unusual to live further from public transport than you could walk. I remember when they first released housing blocks out past East Hills in Sydney it was controversial as the train line extension hadn't been completed yet.
Not much before that car use was so much lower that you could reasonably drive into the CBD and expect to find a parking spot within a block of where you needed to go. My grandfather still had that mindset well into the 1980s, and I remember him being cranky he had to pay 20c for a parking meter because the free parking was all taken up.
The big growth in population, with the expansion of cities well beyond effective public transport, has made multiple car ownership more necessary, with even many people in inner city areas, who might have had no car in times past, now adding to the numbers.
The houses in my street are all bound by covenants that stipulated that only a single driveway could be built. This was to protect the appearance of the street and keep everything uniform. The Body Corporate rules incorporate those in the covenant.
They also stop you hanging washing at the front, parking a boat on the garden and other such anti-social activities.
Probably due to cost. Most council will only provide you one free standard size "crossing" (the cut out part of the kerb for a driveway) per lot. You have to pay for any extra and possibly also justify why you need more than one.
Councils usually do this to minimise conflict points/sizes to pedestrians on the the footpath and to cars on the road, and to maximise on street parking
Why do they still build garages when a large proportion of people don't put their car in it?
Mostly I guess, because people want them to store their junk in. Also perhaps, to use as supplementary accommodation space, which apparently isn't uncommon in some areas of Auckland.
New developments like to remain exclusive - like estates
having just one door for your house can also be seen as exclusive
Garages are no longer for cars, they are where you leave old exercising equipment bought of late night T.V. the kids bikes they grew out of and large bubble screen T.V.s that still work and dusty boxes of Christmas decorations. Plus all the cheap crap bought of the net that was just wrong or busted you couldn't be bothered returning but can't throw out because it's still new.
Or for housing 8 international students who then park their cars on the front lawn.
I never understood this concept. Put ye olde car in the car hole
Oh Steve could you move the Camira I need to get the Torana out so I can get to the Commodore. Steve – I’ll have to get the keys to the Cortina if I’m gonna move that Camira. Darryl – Yeah watch the boat mate.
As mskeggs said earlier, "most of the housing stock was built before multiple car ownership was common, and the most desirable housing stock was often built before cars at all!"
A case in point is this house built 92 years ago on an 810m² block in Norman Park, Brisbane. It was sold earlier this month by the 97-year-old owner whose stevedore father built it when she was 5 years old, and who has lived in it ever since. It has 3 bedrooms, 1 bathroom and no driveway.
https://www.myplaceourplace.com/blog/bulimba/you-must-hear-t…
That's a pretty rad house. Interesting as the council put in the crossover and they didn't decide to install (or have demolished) the driveway.
The main characteristic I see when it comes to older houses is just one main bathroom, maybe one extra toilet, whereas these days on properties half the size (all those flipper developers splitting 500sq blocks) have at least two usually one main and an ensuite.
Growing up in a single bathroom house it's a very welcome change if you had shower hogs in the family.
Some people want just one driveway, some people want two driveways (for entrance to the granny flat or sleepout), and some don't want any driveways at all. Concreting is very expensive considering the length of some driveways. Stormwater drainage must also be considered and that is also expensive. Some houses, although on sitting on massive pockets of land, can't have dual driveways due to sewerage pipes running underneath, the sewerage line can be encased in concrete but that is also expensive.
Planning laws/requirements, and market-driven forces. No one used to have 2 cars, and no one used to have large cars. This is why old driveways are so narrow.
Councils hate double crossovers. They also remove on-street parking which is seen as a huge no no to most residents. You also need a 'vision-arc' or splays at the ends of any driveway which pushes them away from side boundaries to allow for visual checking of the pedestrian pavement, decreasing potential yield.
If you have more than 2 cars accommodated on a new site now, the cars have to be able to exit the property in a forward direction (ie. turn around). This requires more turning space. You also need crossovers pulled a fair way back from existing trees (at least on nature strips) which hampers their location even more.
As an aside, new law brought in last March is that there is minimum 'garden area' across all sites. Ranging from a minimum of 25% of the site (under 450sqm), up to a minimum of 35% of the site for blocks larger than 650sqm: https://www.planning.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/…
Any driveway is not considered 'garden area', which is harsher than the prior site coverage rules, where they could be considered permeable.
Prior to this new law, there were requirements to have a certain minimum amount of permeable site coverage (ie. water can soak in [garden]). This meant people didn't just lay tonnes of concrete everywhere.
New green/brown fields developments gravitate to small roads as they can place them under owner's corporation control/ownership which means they are cheaper to build, and handballs maintenance on to the owners. If it is a council (or Vicroads) owned road, it at least generally needs to be two-carriageway, and 5-6m wide, and councils don't overly promote these as they at least to some extent, have to foot the bill.
Roads are expensive! Much more expensive than basic landscaping.
Interestingly, with smart cars and hover cars coming soon, the need for car ownership will drop away (as well as on-street parking) and we may see a long-term reversal of parking/garages/etc from our city streets, returning them back to promenades. As an aside, with cpu-driven cars, we won't need traffic lights or street signs so our streets will look excellent in 50+ years!
tldr: Planning requirements, Market-conditions, Cost.
*above info is generally Victorian-based and may not apply in other states
**architect here
/thread
Where do I pre-order my hover car? ;)
it all factors down to costs yet again, doesn't it?
yes roads can be expensive but i thought safety was more important?
good luck with smart cars… but are they really as smart as they sound? and will you trust a computer to make split second decisions for you?
no one used to have large cars
Yeah, Australia's favourite car went from tiny Falcons and Commodores to the massive Corolla
Being that the Falcon is from the 60's and the Commodore from the 70's, there were cars decades before this… mostly much, much smaller.
Cars became popular in Australia in the 20's, and prior to that of course were horse carts/carriages. Again, much smaller.
When pray tell do you think most 'old' houses were built in capital Australian cities??? Probably early 20th century at a guess, depending on the city, also earlier.
Err cost?
Personally a home without 10 driveways for my 10 cars ain't a home, it's just a dump, how many driveways you got bro????
Chemtrails.
Do you mean like one double car width driveway or 2 separate driveways?