The wife is wanting to get a larger car, but isn't keen on getting a SUV.
Station wagons don't seem to be all that popular, so looking to hear from the community about what they've driven.
Our budget is under $30k, new or used.
We're also looking for something that we could get a tow bar attached. It won't be carrying anything like a caravan, just a small trailer with extra stuff for road trips.
Edit:
Upgrading from 2009 Ford Focus hatch
Camry!!!
~$30k Camry's don't come as Station Wagons (unlike the 80's/90's Camry's)
Had a mondeo and it was very expensive and unreliable, would not recommend
I've driven Mondeo's for the last 7 years and fortunately haven't had that experience. Was your issue with the transmission or something else?
it was just little things that were expensive to fix. In the end I gave up on repairing the water pump (second time). At one point there was a special hose which cost $500 to fix. Fixes were always expensive because the components were hard to get to
Bought one from a dealer recently, same year and all, with low kays. I knew it had a problem gearbox, so I got them to fix it.
Drove a service car for over a month, got the Mondeo back after a specialist Ford dealer and transmission centre figured out everything.
Cost the dealer 6k. The itemised list basically said 'new/replaced everything'.
I'll see how it goes, but if I had my time over I'd probably go for a commodore wagon in 3.0 v6 guise, knowing parts are readily available and almost any shop could repair it.
Was it diesel or petrol? If it's a design fault why do you think the new one will be any better?
2012 Mondeo LX TDCI Wagon
I also have a Mondeo 2012 diesel. I love it. My transmission specialist tells me the diesel gearboxes are fine. Time will tell. I had a Falcon AU2 gas only before and the Mondeo is even cheaper to run. If you want petrol the Mazda 6 wagons have the same body.
The DCT Autos in the Mondeo range for petrol and diesel are exactly the same.
The Mondeo will be cheaper to run until there's a significant problem. :)
It is the dry clutch DCT that was in the Focus and Festiva that had major problems. The Mondeo tdci has a wet clutch DCT and has less problems. It's rare to find any type of auto transmission that won't have a few duds especially if it is not serviced correctly.
Mine has done 180,000klm and I've only had it a short time. It should be serviced every 60,000. According to the book it's been serviced by Ford dealers but when I got it serviced by a specialist that I trust he said it looked like it had not been serviced ever. So either the dealers are shifty or the customer asked for the transmission service to be skipped. But the specialist thinks the wet clutch ones are fine.
@gutwagon:the wet clutches and the dry clutches are almost as bad as each other. Wet version just has less issues.
They're not designed to be serviceable, it takes a few hours just to access the transmission internally. You're looking at a 5 to 6k replacement cost versus half to a third of that for a complete renewal of a typical Ford or Holden clutch band/torque converter style transmission. (4 speed to 6 speed)
These dual clutch boxes have their advantages, but most people think they are junk versus tried and true gearboxes with more reliability and less cost for repairs. This goes for anybody who makes dual clutch automatic transmissions.
At the end of the day application of these transmissions isn't ready for the day to day driver, they are race gearboxes and have been designed to be junked instead of repaired.
Give me a CVT with a torque converter any day. They are very efficient, simple in design and almost bulletproof.
Canyonero.
Smells like a steak and seats 35.
Commodore - actually Berlina 2002 VY V8 auto.
spacious
comfortable
spacious
fast enough
spacious
cheap parts
spacious
typically 13 litres / 100km, but 15ish when only doing short 5-10km trips
Also true for Falcon and Magna's around this vintage.
Pretty close to the pinnacle of cheap driving in Australia if you don't do a squillion km's and feel the fuel efficiency.
Magnas of that vintage have a terrible habit of leaking at the crank seals. Major job to fix.
I have no idea how Magnas got a mention in this discussion.
Budget is under $30k not under $300
@LoopyLou:Because it makes more sense to have a safe and reliable beater for cheap, than forking out large sums for a newer car any day of the week. A good balance is your best bet, imo.
Lots of discussion about this topic on YouTube and Reddit.
@Bamboozle:
I don't think the safety of any 2002 car is going to be near that of a 30k car..
If you take Safety out of the equation then i agree
A BA falcon fits the bill easily, for example. It's not that hard to find something that fits most criteria for cheap. I'd just be looking for something a little less thirsty.
Yeah too right. They go for nothing… even early FGs are amazingly cheap with pretty low kms considering what they cost new
Wow that's pretty terrible fuel economy
Its a v8. Please name a v8 that doesn't use a similar amount of fuel.
It's actually pretty good for an ls1. I get about 18l/100 in mine.
My VT supercharged 6 gets 14.2/100 and thats driving lightly…
Yep that's pretty good. I average 20l/100 on my work commute, and easily see 24-26l/100 if I'm not making an effort to drive lightly.
Yep have had a VT wagon in the past. can confirm all of the above. Its amazing how much stuff you can cram into one. The V6 isn't too bad on fuel.
Subaru outback
This!
I believe james may from top gear called it "all the car you could ever need"
Whats the reason to choose station wagon over SUV? seating position? Looks?
We have a narrow car space and the wife also didn't want to be one of those mum's with the big SUV. She also grew up with station wagons so prefers them.
the wife also didn't want to be one of those mum's with the big SUV
A RAV4 wagon isn't any bigger than a Mazda 6 wagon. It's just higher (but shorter) so that the driver and their passengers can sit more comfortable.
http://www.toyota.com.au/rav4/~/media/toyota/vehicles/rav4/i…
http://www.automobiledimension.com/photos/mazda-6-wagon-2017…
It's just higher (but shorter) so that the driver and their passengers can sit more comfortable
Not if you prefer a lower seating position and longer leg room. its personal preference mostly.
@apple2016: Or have to turn sharply at the last moment. Comfort will be won at that point by whatever is closest to the ground, let alone upright (not rolling)
For that matter, anyone that wants to avoid having to slow down unnecessarily for corners (or is otherwise in a hurry) will be far more comfortable in a normal wagon, assuming it has the same (or better) for-aft weight balance.
have a plus one for this alone;
Comfort will be won at that point by whatever is closest to the ground, let alone upright (not rolling)
.
@sandp: Hell yea! Wagons will one day win the F1, for sure!
Why have 2 doors (or less) and no room, when a wagon or a fast back can do it all as well?
Wagons are a lot cheaper from what I've seen.
There are people out there…not many granted, that hushed tones…….actually enjoy driving. I've heard that there are even those that go by the dirty word…. Enthusiasts.
I just want to state here that I am a staunch supporter of our SUV overlords and that any suggestion that I test drove a Superb 206 Sportline wagon last weekend is heresy.
Depending on what you mean by larger:
2015 plated Hyundai i30 Wagon. Demo 150km. 5 year warranty. $21990 Drive Away
Hard to beat for value and cost of ownership. Quite pleasant to drive, economical on fuel and maintenance, surprisingly roomy with decent cargo capacity.
https://www.carsales.com.au/demo/details/Hyundai-i30-2015/OA…
i40 is a bit more 'wagony' I would have thought?
There's the common i30 hatch variety that you see around mostly and there is also a wagon. It's a proper wagon and worth a look.
i40 might be worth a look for the OP too. Bigger vehicle and the same pluses as the i30, can be had for less than $30K drive away.
This one caught my eye when looking a few up. Which one model in particular?
Agree, but I could not find any for sale near me for sub 30k
I have been eyeing on a Skoda Octavia scout myself
I bought one and liked it so much i bought a second :)
Great car, especially for the money.
And quite quick too considering the small engine.
Can't go past a Skoda Octavia Wagon. Can be had brand new for under $30. Great mid sized wagon with more boot space than any SUV and a huge back seat for the kids/adults. Currently run out deal on the outgoing model, you could pick up a steal.
Standard safety tech is really well kitted out. Great easy to use interior and controls. All the drivability of a VW golf. Test drive one and you won't be disappointed.
Yeah, I was wondering about parts and servicing because they're not as common.
Servicing is just as cheap. Parts are also fine. Remember Skoda is bigger than Toyota in Europe.
Servicing is not as cheap as japs. It's a good car but if something breaks then it's expensive.
I have a Skoda. My services are capped price and quite reasonable. $296 for my last service.
@apple2016: That's a major service and they replace a lot of parts. You'll find that's normal with the jap and Korean cars too at major service.
@Skramit: Not really. my holden commodore service costing are less than $300 upto 1,35,000 kms or 5 years approx. Capped price is not necessarily cheap for Euro makes.
Remember Skoda is bigger than Toyota in Europe.
what do you mean when you say bigger? as in sales, deliveries or some other data?
Service interval is 12m 15k, vs 6m with some of the Japanese makes (like Honda for example), so need to factor that in too.
@Skramit: Hey Skrami, how much did your 30, 45, and 60k services cost? And be honest ;)
You'll find that aforementioned first major service interval is at 100,000-150,000 in pretty much any Korean or Jap.
I'd also like to point out the 120k service on my Mazda 3 cost $720 all in through Mazda. Parts, labour, hell I even got a loan car for the day.
Subaru 100k
Mazda 120k
Hyundai 120k
Honda 150k
I don't want to buy into the whole VW reliability debate but even if you only needed to replace the basics, you'll still walk away well behind anything from Asia. Ultratune, Midas and I believe ABS also charge a "European surcharge" of around $30 for a Volkswagen, right off the bat. We haven't even got to parts yet, or yknow.. the actual service.
A basic real-life example:
- A clutch for my Mazda 3 (2012) cost $525 all in, supplied and fitted by Mazda.
- My sister was quoted a whopping $1671 for a clutch for her (also 2012) MK6 Golf by the dealer she purchased it from new. They also refused to put in writing that $1671 would be the total invoice before work commenced. She sold the golf.
Am I saying this is bad form on the part of VW? Not at all! In return, my sisters Golf was a MUCH nicer place to be than my 3 - and you spend a lot more time in actual car than under the bonnet… as I was constantly reminded. What I am saying is that a prospective buyer of a European car shouldn't go into it thinking they can run it on a Toyota budget like you seem to suggest. Because they can't.
An earlier commenter mentioned that even manufacturer-backed capped price servicing initiatives are more expensive. He's right! Here's the capped service pricing for a base model automatic Honda Civic… And here's the pricing for a base model automatic Golf. These are both 2017, base model automatic cars with a very similar driveway price. It's not a small chunk of money!
2018 review from car advice:
Skoda offers a six-year/90,000km capped-price servicing plan, with maintenance due every 12 months or 15,000km. The average cost over that coverage period is $418 per annum. The brand backs its cars with a five-year, unlimited kilometre warranty, and one year of free roadside assist.
http://www.caradvice.com.au/556816/2018-skoda-octavia-review…
@Skramit: CarAdvice are simply wrong, says math. The combined servicing cost over 90,000km ($3083) divide the maximum capped price servicing period (6 years - so we're presuming 15,000km/yr) equates to a minimum, not average of $513.83 a year to service. But hey who am I to suggest CA offer bordering-advertorial reviews on what are often polished VAG terds to everyone else.
A five year unlimited kilometre warranty is not deserving of praise when even Citroen and Kia offer 7. It's just okay. And what a plan Skoda offer, only $742 for a 60,000km service for the Superb, bargain!
If you read a little further down you'll see I acknowledged your point myself in great detail, and in fact compared the average servicing costs of two different VAG vehicles, as priced by either Skoda or VW themselves. Specifically regarding Skoda:
Servicing almost line ball with VW which means it's a bit dear but.. to be honest it's probably the nicest of all the cars to be in, which probably helps forgive the slightly higher maintenance cost.
I'm really not trying to get into an argument with you but would rather like to reliterate my original point, which is that you should buy a European car if you fancy. Go for it! Just don't buy it on the proviso that you'll be able to service it on a Toyota budget. Anyone who says you can is lying. I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing/reflective of any reliability blah blah, rather that it's a cost, particularly a private buyer, really really needs to factor into the overall cost equation.
I'm tapping out, take it easy mate!
@apple2016: I have been driving Skoda Octavia for the last two years. Service it once a year ( around 20K Kms ). Most expensive thing was to service the gear box which was around 500$ (every 60k kms ). Apart from that, its not that expenisve.
Service it once a year ( around 20K Kms ).
Skoda wants owners to service every 12 months or 15000km. Whatever comes first. Adding 33% km to the service interval is cheating with the tco data, so to speak.
They are a VW golf with a different body, you shouldn't have a problem with parts and servicing.
Also consider the Golf Wagon, and other solid choices are Mazda 6, Mondeo or one of the Subaru wagons.
Yeah, I was wondering about parts and servicing because they're not as common.
skoda service is 12 months/15000km compared to toyota/rav4 6 months/10000km.
Your Service Quote
Model Year: 2017
Model: Toyota RAV4 GX 2.0L Petrol 5D Wagon CVT 2WD
Quote date: 08/06/2017
Quote expiry date: 08/07/2017
Service Guarantee Details:
Scheduled Service 6 months or 10,000 km 12 months or 20,000 km 18 months or 30,000 km 24 months or 40,000 km 30 months or 50,000 km 36 months or 60,000 km
Toyota Service Advantage[B20] Price
See terms & conditions for more information
$180.00 $180.00 $180.00 $180.00 $180.00 $180.00
Maximum Logbook Service[TSG01] Price
See terms & conditions for more information
$192.91 $219.31 $245.18 $386.33 $192.91 $271.58
Oh look, you forgot the service pricing of the Skoda! I'll use a completely base model MY17 2L DSG Superb wagon for my example eh? Direct from Skoda:
15,000km - $316
30,000km - $390
45,000km - $487
60,000km - $742
75,000km - $487
90,000km - $661
Total cost for Skoda at 90,000km: $3083
Total cost for the Rav at 90,000km using your numbers: $1620
This is not an isolated example.
@jackary: Have a look at what servicing is done, and the fluids used. You will see that many don't flush fluids or replace them early enough to avoid undue wear, contaminant build-up and chemical breakdown. Oftentimes better fluids can be used (but only if manufacturer approved). *In many cases, 'compatible' is not appropriate. You can suffer premature component failure because the coolant or the fluids actually damaged the parts- because it was too old, broke down or the wrong stuff was put in).
Understand also that the German (such as BASF) fluids are far more expensive than the Jap spec fluids. This is often because the tech they use leads the industry.
If you talk to a mechanic seasoned at servicing euro cars (as they all service Jap cars, not even a 'euro specialist' can avoid doing Asian cars), they'll tell you that the amount of time the mechanicals that rely on these fluids last, i.e. stay clean, retain their wear surfaces, compression, etc. shows how much better the fluids and the engineering is.
That is why it is not uncommon that Asian cars end up blowing smoke or belching invisible fumes prematurely (Mitsu and Mazda are the worst examples).
As much as we all like to save money, if you buy servicing or worse, a car, based on maintenance costs only, it will end result in a poor outcome. Most important thing I check is the quality of new car servicing one brand (and dealer) provides versus the other/s. Also, if you buy a car with all wheel drive, or some complicated new technology, it may cost more to service it.
Quality relates mostly to how well trained the technicians are, if the procedures/service information is clear and followed in the workshop… (culture) and unfortunately, if the service schedule is adequate. In most new cars the service schedule is minimised as much as it can be, which in many cases almost ensures a vehicle that is otherwise fine can be need so much mechanical repair it can financially cheaper to send to landfill at 7 years (and don't laugh, that is where they are starting to go!)
But for a commodity car living in the inner city, which plas bumper/dodgem cars all its life, it can make little difference. The way a lot of people mistreat their cars, it is obvious that they are firmly of the assumption that its usable life will be close to within their ownership. And many of these quickly turn into the loudest of complainers about 'design faults' when the car suffers a catastrophic problem that could have been avoided with the slightest modicum of care.
You can actually get what you pay for- but it is hard to tell/find out. If you can't be certain, best thing is to go over the service schedule yourself/with the dealer and add-in things that you can have done that will help your car last and extend it's service life. Think of it like putting back in the things they took out, because that is exactly what you will be doing.
The mot common example is automatic transmission fluid: They might say it should be changed every 100,000 or even never- some even call it 'lifetime' fluid. Usually only 1/3 of it is changed (assuming they do actually change it, it is not uncommon that some charge for it but not actually swap any out), so changing it at 80% of the recommended interval is not a bad idea as the fluid is cheap and transmission failure is extremely expensive (and not uncommon).
But if buying new, don't expect sales people to admit anything can be added to their service schedule, they will not know, and are not programmed to think that way either.
@zerovelocity: So this is a very old thread but okay…
As an owner of both a German and Japanese car, it’s difficult to disagree with what you’re saying - however I’d dispute your claim regarding fluids - it’s anecdotal at best.
I’m not sure what your argument is. Youre implying the Skoda’s capped servicing is more expensive because they replace fluids earlier - however the above capped servicing price doesn’t include any fluids. No brake fluid ($99), no coolant ($89), not even a pollen filter ($147). They are extras just like they are with everyone else.
Would you honestly recommend a Renault Clio over say, a Mazda 2 or Honda Jazz to the inner city dodgem car dweller you refer to? You have rocks in your head sir! Ask a VW owner with a TFSI engine how they feel about their ownership experience.
Having owned an utter dog of an E46 330ci, I attest to the requirement for preventative maintenance in European cars. But it didn’t stop my entire cooling system from cooking itself at 56,000km - this was a $6500 repair by the way - it also didn’t help the hundreds of owners who’s VANOS systems died (and were told it was their fault) while BMW were still developing the tech. Conversely, the E36 325i I owned before it was faultless over ~120,000km.
My original point is as valid as it was at the beginning - buy a European car because you LIKE it. Then find a good independent euro mechanic because I would absolutely agree with you that it comes down to having a good tech.
I’ll leave you with a picture of my neighbours car at the present - this is what happens when you have a faulty airbag sensor in your 2 year old car and VW quote a $3000 repair! Have a great day! :)
@jackary: Well capped servicing if the fluids aren't included is hardly capped servicing.
Anecdotal? Ask any mechanical engineer, they'll tell you where fluid engineering happens.
'…recommend a Renault' That I've never done, ever. But they did manage the Renault 5 Turbo and the Clio Turbo really is amazing, but in Oz I wouldn't want to own (even) a Clio.
'utter dog of an E46 330ci' Yes indeed. There are plenty around it is a very common story; All suffer terribly from abuse and poor servicing. The 330 was the one that just had too much going on- the American design team overdid quite a few bits and caused trouble for owners. But put yourself in the car's position, everyone who's ever driven a 330 (let alone owned it) gets behind the wheel and behaves like they are in an M3 or worse, an F1.
'my entire cooling system from cooking itself' It can happen but is covered under warranty unless it is old in which case it will be the fault of the person who last serviced (or didn't service it properly). What needs to be replaced in the schedule, and it isn't hard to do once you have done your first.
'hundreds of owners who’s VANOS systems died' BMW were literally the first to develop this very complex technology and every car they built then got it. Millions. So of course, hundreds, actually thousands- had problems. But there are simple fixes both for the wear that happens and also for improvement. It is a brilliant system, and anyone who has problems with it can have it addressed by any half-decent shop.
BMW were not developing the tech on e46, they were refining it. Millions of faultless E36s (320, 323, 325, 328), not to mention millions of 5 series e34 and e39 were in service (not to mention all the dual vanos e36 M3s) before the very occasional troubles you're talking about began. Used, I'd rather own a M52B28 or even M54B25 than M54B30.
Thanks for the pic of the Golf. I don't think anything of the VW distributor network, but most dealers here are useless enough to quote $3000 for anything that requires a major tear-down. They all continue to go by the motto 'any excuse'. Few do what they put on the bill.
Unfortunately though, most new cars are like this. On good ones though, it's surprising how well the fasteners work and can be reused. It is so fast and easy to take the front entirely down on these and the Audis. Just put it all aside and then pop it back together. Everything is so 'optimsed' that just doing the cam-belts requires as much, but its just a different way of looking at things and allows you to see so well once the body is out of the way.
But hell, try doing the 'cool' Jap branded models now, let alone the low-production ones- they aren't exactly easy, but are so much less smart and the technical doc is just ludicrous. At least the euros have mostly good doco.
Great mid sized wagon with more boot space than any SUV
not by much and less when the seats are folded.
http://www.carbuyer.co.uk/reviews/skoda/octavia/hatchback/pr…
Boot space
The Skoda Octavia’s boot steals all the headlines. The standard hatchback has a generous 590-litre capacity, which stretches to 1,580 litres with the 60:40 split-folding rear seats lowered.
https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-advice/boot-sizes-of-austral…
Toyota RAV4
Seats up – 577L (506L - with full-size spare)
Seats down – 1666L
Nissan X-Trail
Seats up – 550L (135L - three rows)
Seats down – 1982L
The following video highlights just how much space there is in a wagon (Octavia) compared to an SUV (Honda CRV which is considered to be one of the roomiest mid-side SUVs on the market)-
http://www.caradvice.com.au/videos/wagon-v-suv-best-40000-pi…
Most of that additional space is via the height not depth. Depends on the kind of cargo you carry mostly, IMHO depth is a lot more useful than height for most of the time. It's harder to stack items than it is to lay it out over a longer area. I've owned both SUVs and Wagon… Wagon always wins hands down for transporting items due to the depth of the boot space.
Horses for courses. Do you want to have to put the seats down? Do you value depth or height in your cargo space?
I value seats up (for the next few years I simply won't be putting them down) and I valued depth over height.
I've been intimately involved with a Rav4's cargo space and it's just pitiful as far as I'm concerned. That's a whole lotta car for very little cargo space. But…ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE! The person who owns the Rav4 LOVES IT!
We carry equipment that may at times be heavy. A deep cargo space makes it a pita to get this out. A vertical cargo space is easier to utilise and better for our backs. The RAV4 can also be equipped with two extra seats in the back to make it a 5+2.
Yep I never carry heavy equipment, just a lot of light equipment. I can totally see the benefit there.
If I ever need 7 seats I'll kill myself anyway so like I said, horses for courses!
You're probably right.
Btw we used to own a vw. Fun to drive but unreliable. Sold it after the third repair.
Commodore Sportswagon. I got a twelve month old SS for a smidge under $40K with 7000km. You might just have to drop back from the SS
Design very dated, absolute end of life model & shocking real world fuel economy unless your on a freeway would rule this out for me. Better deals for heaps cheaper.
Haha must be a troll when you say that there are better deals for heaps cheaper. the VF SS sportswagon is the deal of the century. You're getting a $150,000 car for a under a third of the price.
Any wagon without a V8 is just going to be an absolute nightmare to drive. You're better off walking rather than being in an underpowered skoda/toyota/whatever
Lol, I promise I'm not trolling you :) I just don't agree, nor does the market. Sales dwindled, the V8's were so thirsty you could see the fuel gauge going down as you idled virtually. Good to drive but real world ownership was 1 plus tank a week even with tiny mileage, ok at $0.70 a litre but once we climbed over $1.20 the writing was on the wall.
The market wanted smaller engines, 2.0l Diesel engines with turbo's. Yeah, less power but easier to live with. Sales of Falcadores dwindled, average build quality didn't help & ultimately the govt didn't want to bankroll them.
A true part of Aussie history for sure, but just like Rover in the U.K. the market moved on…
So OP, my advise is avoid.
Thanks for your reply. All your points are sensible and valid, I can't deny that.
I still maintain that the V8s are excellent value for what they offer, however I acknowledge that there is only value there for an increasingly small market segment. I guess I'm in mourning.
@soaringphoenix: I get it, I had a commodore (SS) and a Falcon (XR6T), hated the ford (shocking build quality) but loved the commodore (other than the thirst). For the record switched to a Golf GTI & was blown away by the build quality… I know people knock the DSG box but compared to the Falcon it was just a whole different league. Expensive to service but the whole package (for me) was a big step up. My wife recently bought a Hyundai, for under $30k for an SUV it's an excellent buy with a 5 year warranty (however the 2.0l engine is shockingly poor) but is frugal & dirt cheap to run. Can't fault it
I'd be listing your needs more than wife wants to carry stuff
wife wants to carry stuff
Bulk buys of eneloops.
You can't go wrong with a diesel RAV4.
http://www.toyota.com.au/rav4/~/media/toyota/vehicles/rav4/i…
I'd go a Forrester or a outback.
+1 for the mazda 6 wagon.
I just have to cover the 6 so my mum doesn't think it's a cursed car!
Subaru Outback Diesel
I picked up a second hand 2013 Premium @73km for $26k from the Subaru dealer, full service history
Really has been awesome as I do around 130 km a day down the freeway 6.6L/100km
Awesome features, dual air, sunroof, electric seats,reverse camera, safety and a good media system for its age
I might have to take a closer look at some of the secondhand ones.
By 73km did you mean 73,000km?
Yep
I have a 2012 Mondeo that I really like because it has a massive liftback boot that can take a lot, especially when the back seats are folded flat. You may not need a station wagon. The only issue is the expensive gearbox that may one day cost more than the car is worth if I ever need to repair it (knocks on wood).