Australia's NBN A Cautionary Tale for Other Countries

Diji1 on 16/05/2017 - 11:03
Last edited 16/05/2017 - 11:26 by 1 other user

The New York Times has just run an article syndicated by news.com.au which points out Australia embarrassing internet situation that Malcom Turnbull delivered to us during his massive project where he has shifted as much public money into Telstra as possible and (expletive) you if you're not happy with 12Mbit internet or less.

http://www.news.com.au/technology/online/nbn/new-york-times-…

Australia, a wealthy nation with a widely envied quality of life, lags in one essential area of modern life: its internet speed. Eight years after the country began an unprecedented broadband modernization effort that will cost at least 49 billion Australian dollars, or $36 billion, its average internet speed lags that of the United States, most of Western Europe, Japan and South Korea. In the most recent ranking of internet speeds by Akamai, a networking company, Australia came in at an embarrassing No. 51, trailing developing economies like Thailand and Kenya. For many here, slow broadband connections are a source of frustration and an inspiration for gallows humor. One parody video ponders what would happen if an American with a passion for Instagram and streaming "Scandal" were to switch places with an Australian resigned to taking bathroom breaks as her shows buffer.

Don't forget this process of Turnbull's has involved purchasing Telstra's copper network that already wasn't working and then awarding Telstra the maintenance contract which will involve replacing the whole thing as it continuously falls apart while delivering you internet that doesn't work. And interfering twice in the ACCC in order to stop price decreases in the wholesale price that Telstra charges which is unprecedented. Do you get the picture: the prime minister of Australia acts like he works for Telstra at your expense.

Please do not voter this criminal into power next election. Hasn't he suckered you enough by now?

Internet

Comments

  • JimB on 16/05/2017 - 11:16
    +3

    I think main issue about NBN has come about due to costs.

    It just costs far too much money to provide NBN to everyone due to the size of Australia and the labour costs to install the network. Frankly labour costs are far too high in this country, multiply that the the size of the network and it's super expensive to install/maintain.

    • t_c on 16/05/2017 - 12:34
      +5

      Australia needs high labour rates so banks can approve huge mortgages so people can buy overpriced real estate from the last generation owners so that they do not claim on pension entitlements.

    • Cluster on 16/05/2017 - 12:37
      +4

      "Frankly labour costs are far too high in this country" Compared to many other nations in Asia, that's absolutely true.

      The problem is how do you cut people's income? It's easy to say 'those cable workers over there are earning far too much, cut their wages to $20 per hour', but what happens if someone points at you and says 'I think you're earning far too much, have a 50% cut'. Would you protest, or happily take it?

      • JimB on 16/05/2017 - 13:31

        You're correct, no one would be happy. You can't cut their income unless there is some major disruption in the industry i.e. mining boom.

        There's a massive wage inequality when many blue collar workers earn more than teachers.

        And that fact has contributed to why we are paying too much for inferior broadband.

    • [Deactivated] on 16/05/2017 - 14:25
      +3

      "labour costs to install the network" THIS. Always become an excuse when comparing with Asian countries.
      Which makes me so happy that now Kiwis have faster Internet, how's labour costs over there? Must be much cheaper than here right?

      Yes, I agree labour costs is higher which lead to higher subscription cost and such.
      i.e) Most Asian fibre service comes with cheaper price and unlimited quota - which hardly will ever happen in any foreseeable future in Australia

      However remember affordability and availability are two very different things.

      How would you explain majority people living around 20km radius from major city central still cannot access to fibre service to date?

      • boomramada on 16/05/2017 - 15:03
        +1

        Which makes me so happy that now Kiwis have faster Internet, how's labour costs over there? Must be much cheaper than here right?

        not just the cost, you have to think about the coverage area.

        • moonphase on 16/05/2017 - 17:01
          +2

          Unless NBN covers the desert areas, I don't think that coverage would be different vastly if we just consider areas where people lives.

          IDK much but it seems written as Government own project and read as "pay Telstra much as possible" project.

        • boomramada on 16/05/2017 - 17:22

          @moonphase:
          I know we don't need wired NBN in red center, but still Aus is fricken big :)
          I bet it cost more to add a line between WA to SYD, than Eng to France.

          http://www.ga.gov.au/scientific-topics/national-location-inf…

        • tonyjzx on 16/05/2017 - 18:30
          +2

          The ironic thing is that its well known that the NBN contractors are exploiting traineeships to to build the nbn network… but hey, labour is too expensive…

        • moonphase on 16/05/2017 - 22:16

          @boomramada: Well you may have point there but how many lines would they need to have it from WA to SYD?

          Isn't there chance it's already there by like submarine cables? This is not my specialties but seriously, how they spending doesn't adds up here.

        • boomramada on 16/05/2017 - 22:30

          @moonphase:

          Dude you just thinking too hard and miss my point.
          Anyway, for your info there is a submarine cables between Perth and Bris. :)

  • plmko on 16/05/2017 - 11:21
    -1

    Thanks, I'll vote for him.

  • Sacco07 on 16/05/2017 - 11:35
    +7

    I thought that it was the Labour party who originally tried to bring NBN to Australia? Back in 2007 wasn't their whole campaign based around faster internet?

    • Cluster on 16/05/2017 - 12:32
      +1

      Labor's plan was to roll out fiber to every possible house. This was taking too long, was far too expensive, so the Coalition scrapped that plan and gave us reusing the existing copper network. It's cheaper and much faster to roll out, but as people are experiencing it's sometimes a real dog in terms of performance.

      Some people are delighted with FTTN, like my relatives who could not get ADSL at all and were stuck on satellite (yes!) and then mobile phone data (1 bar of signal, at best) 15 minutes away from the Adelaide CBD. They are now getting 25/5 and are delighted. Others would look at this speed and roll their eyes at how terrible it is.

      • jorf on 16/05/2017 - 14:56
        +10

        It's cheaper and much faster to roll out

        Except it's not, and in a few years, they'll need to spend double what they would have spent in the first place replacing all the garbage that they threw good money at trying to prove a point (anything Labor comes up with is bad!).

        The thing that completely astounds me is the HFC rollout - they could have chalked up some easy wins by converting all those areas first (don't get me wrong - it's still stupid, considering it's basically just spending a bunch of money to give people in these areas what they already have), but instead, we have have areas ALREADY serviced by cable internet that aren't getting "NBN" until 2019.. wtf. The mismanagement of this is astounding and the blame should lay squarely at Malcolm's stupid feet.

        • Cluster on 16/05/2017 - 15:21
          +1

          I experienced a FTTP rollout to my house. It required four workers a total of about 5 hours to do. The cable conduit running to my house was broken. It was never installed properly when the house was built in 2011. So paving had to be dug up and a new conduit laid. Then a worker had to crawl through the ceiling to install the cable into my wall.

          Reusing the existing cabling? Quick and cheap. But… that's only the construction phase. In the long term using 50+ year old copper is going to be a maintenance nightmare and ultimately end up costing more. But then, the current government will be long gone.

        • RockyRaccoon on 16/05/2017 - 17:04
          +1

          @Cluster: Hidden in your post is one issue that many forget. 4 workers 5 hours to do and never instaled properly.

          In my case FTTP it was 5 workers 5 DAYS and it worked. For a time. Then it needed to be reinstalled. Another 5 DAYS with much of the conduit needing to be relaid and multiple access points along the way. My estimate nothing short of $10K. Other neighbours experienced issues as well. Not much profit in that install plus that tied up staff that could have been rolling things out faster for others.

          As for speed, its dropped of considerably since the beginning. The Fibre is fine, its the backhaul. 100/40 drops to 12/5 4pm to 10pm each night. Kids downloading, netflix etc (which BTW they are entitled to do). So its not always the cable to the house, its the bandwidth behind that cant cope with the extra demand.

          Comparing Australia with nations like NZ, where distance between centre is small isnt fair. they are a small island (or two) we are the biggest island. Likewise cmments about Singapore Korea are the same.

    • Cheeper on 16/05/2017 - 12:47
      -3

      Sacco07 "wasn't their whole campaign based around faster internet?"

      Their campaign was.. but the policy was a knee jerk one just to get votes.
      Half baked ideas by politicians to gain favour are not new… think pink bats :-(, carbon tax :-(, Rudds big cash hand out to avoid the GFC :-(… etc…
      People will vote for any party that promises them something for nothing…

  • Cheeper on 16/05/2017 - 12:36
    +2

    "Eight years after the country began an unprecedented broadband modernization effort that will cost at least 49 billion Australian dollars,"

    That was the original estimate…. the real figure was slightly different.. :-(

    People purposely choose to overlook the initial problem which was the many people that could not get adsl or adsl2. Political pride took over and slammed the fttn plan every way they could regardless of it being much faster to roll out where fttp would have taken many decades and run up insane cost.

    It is not all about people in capital cities who already had fast internet getting faster internet…. there are people who dont live in capital cities you know?

    Oh… there were people connected (the small fortunate few) to the fttp who had difficulties too… but lets not talk about that.
    Internet may be faster in countries with a small land mass or with very high population but the cost of the roll out there is very different to here.

    • Make it so on 16/05/2017 - 14:42
      +5

      It's not just about cost of roll out. When talking about technology, you need to take maintenance costs and economic life into account, and possibly the cost of "missed opportunity". For anything that uses copper, maintenance costs go sky high, and its economic life is very short.

      I'm on FTTN, getting up to ~74Mbps. I'm happy now, but concerned about 5+ years from now. I have friends on FTTN who have had nothing but problems with getting or staying connected, and NBN Co does little-to-nothing to help. Those problems would not exist if the NBN wasn't built on compromises. Anyone who works in ICT knows what happens when you compromise to keep costs down; you end up spending more in the end, with less to show for it.

      Like the saying goes: "if you are going to do something, do it right".

      • RockyRaccoon on 16/05/2017 - 17:07
        -1

        And on FTTP there are NOT problems? Read my post above. Grass always seems greener for those on FTTP but its not always the case.

        • Make it so on 16/05/2017 - 17:13
          +3

          On FTTP, the grass is future-proof and not made of copper :)
          There are always going to be problems with technology, but the number of potential problems with FTTN is simply far greater, and at times impossible to solve.

        • Sweet3st on 16/05/2017 - 18:20
          +2

          @Make it so: I'm in the ludicrous situation where, having an apartment in a building entirely cabled up with Foxtel cable to every apartment, come NBN day, the technician unplugged my very fast and reliable cable connection, and plugged me into the old copper phone line WTF? Speeds are now consistently slower and completely fall over at peak times… unbelievable :(

        • RockyRaccoon on 16/05/2017 - 19:40
          -2

          @Make it so: Did you read my earleir post? The cost vs the gain. Without having all the facts - which only the NBN probably has, the point is that the cost of replacing the copper may well be lower than the original cost of FTTP. The cost also including the fact that the NBN model as originally scoped was that the latter builds would be funded in part by the revenue from the earlier builds.

          If the earlier builds were running years behind schedule as they were, then the revenue wouldn't be there. So like many businesses, if the original plan fails you either spend more to fix it, or you find cheaper ways to get there.

          Now only with hindsight will it prove that NBN co will make enough money with FTTN revenue streams to offset the cost of upgrading FTTN to FTTP.

          The point being is that the NBN business plan was based on a revenue model. So if you generate revenue faster then you can afford to spend more.

        • scupper on 16/05/2017 - 20:16
          +2

          @RockyRaccoon: Your issue was a problem with your installation only, whereas staying with copper was a problem for everyone due to its older technology. Also, Labor's NBN was going to leverage its higher speed to charge more to those who wish to pay for it, thus gaining extra funds for future use. Now, the Lib's NBN is already projected to cost more than Labor's NBN, and the users will be getting slugged even more. Ongoing expenses is more expensive for the new NBN, e.g. it uses more electricity. Just goes to show how little value we are buying by staying with copper.

        • RockyRaccoon on 16/05/2017 - 21:49
          -1

          @scupper: no debate on the plan to charge more for higher speed. But given the rollout timeframe. (in 2007 we were promised whole country would be 2014) getting higher revenue per install from a very small amount connected vs lower revenue per install might not make the same gross revenue. Given also if the speed of rollout was delayed, then copper would still be used by those not having the nBN.

          As for my install, there are many in our area who had same issues. Also my direct neighbour had to wait for fresh conduit to be laid. We share a driveway and the NBN wouldnt install both at same time. And this was under Labor not the Libs. The inefficiencies and incompetence was there right from the beginning. Given this was 6 years after the NBN was announced. So your simple statement that under libs it will cost more, isn't provable. Under both it would have cost more. And again cost isnt an issue if it generated more revenue. Speed of rollout would generate more revenue as much as, or probably more than a few wanting faster loading. Also only 1 in 7 choose the highest speed NBN tier.

          Now if the NBN was rolled out in urban areas right from the start rather than regional areas that the government needed votes from, then the revenue model may have been different.

  • havebeerbelywillsumo on 16/05/2017 - 15:05
    +2

    Like the saying goes: "if you are going to do something, do it right".

    And that is the vital bit……that and a proper NBN is an investment for the country's future, "normal" economics rarely make sense if that is the case IMHO, such things will always be ruinously expensive in "today"'s dollars IMHO, but when it's needed it is seen to have been a very canny spend.

  • Mrbean007 on 16/05/2017 - 15:21
    +1

    Optus cable user had to go onto nbn as my suburb was wiping out cable been on it for over 2 weeks so far so good just after 5 to 10 get slow downs but all in all happy i did

    Results as of now

    http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/a/2875037155

    But mind you apart from uploads i was already getting them speeds on cable why did they even install nbn in my area they used all new cabling from street to the houses as stated 4 contractor's had to come back 3 times just to install it as the existing line was to old

  • myusername on 16/05/2017 - 18:31
    +4

    aussie interweb speeds are a joke.

    i remember on holidays in Hoi An in Vietnam going out to a little farming village one day to explore and went to a "cafe" on the side of a river. basically a few hammocks between trees, a lady sitting on a milk crate with a little bbq nothing special at all, sitting there when she bought my food over she gave me a little business card with a few letters on it, i asked what is was and she said wifi. for the life of me i couldnt see a router anywhere, logged into it and rang speedtest.net and found the speeds there were faster than nbn back home.

    australia is a 3rd world country when it comes to internet speeds

  • try2bhelpful on 16/05/2017 - 20:01

    The Government had the option to dump all of this at Telstra's feet, but they decided to go for the political option and hand it to an overseas company. Our Governments have completely stuffed up all of their privatisation of Government services including power, water, transport, telecommunications, postal services. Everything has gone up in price and the service has gone down.

    • RockyRaccoon on 16/05/2017 - 21:57

      Now that is silly.

      The Government (Rudd) wanted the telecommunications back under its control (and so did the telecom unions) so the NBN was an indirect way to get telecoms back into governments hands. You completely misunderstand the fact the equipment was overseas supplied vs the NBN being overseas owned. Its NOT

      BTW the Postal service in this country is still owned by the Government. Which country are you really from?

      • try2bhelpful on 17/05/2017 - 10:34

        Sounds like the postal service is in Government hands in "name only" given the board can set the salary for the CEO; probably why I made the mistake. In a real government situation the Public Service would be setting the salary. not the outrageous salary that the previous incumbent got via the board, then the Government tried to wash their hands of the blame. NBN was never about getting Telecoms back into Government hands; it was about putting in an infrastructure after the horse had well and truly bolted. They should've done a proper job of separating out Wholesale and retail Telecommunication at the time they decided to privatise Telstra but they made a completely botched job of it, like most outsourcing. They wanted to do a quick and dirty and now they have their money from the Telstra shareholders they keep changing the ground rules. I wouldn't mind if the outrageous profits the power companies, etc, were going back into Government coffers, but they aren't. Power, water, transport are essential services and we are being held to ransom by private industries. Meanwhile Governments duck shove their responsibilities.

        • RockyRaccoon on 17/05/2017 - 13:30

          Sorry comrade, I misunderstood where you were coming from.

  • ozzie freddo on 16/05/2017 - 22:30
    -2

    Have you seen the mess of stuff hanging from the poles in the street and into every property in other countries as their free market allows every provider to just hang their communications infrastructure where they want?
    I prefer it to be out of sight underground.
    Getting fibre all the way into our (established) homes neatly (underground and out of sight) would mean major costs and digging up of our paths, gardens, driveways etc and creating an entry point into the house, so it makes sense to use the existing copper for the final leg into the property. Sure, for new builds, fibre to the home is the way to go, but fibre to the kerb is an acceptable alternative. Fibre to the node is still acceptable (who needs more than 20Mbps?).

    • Forfiet on 16/05/2017 - 23:09
      +4

      "who needs more than ***?" famous last words….

    • try2bhelpful on 17/05/2017 - 10:37

      They should bite the bullet and put in the underground conduits for Telecoms and power; these should be owned, and controlled, by the Government to provide a level field wholesale network. Imagine how much better our neighbourhoods would be without the unsightly wiring and the completely butchered trees.

  • desafinado74 on 17/05/2017 - 10:43

    When it comes to infrastructure, internet etc, Australia is shockingly bad compared to many countries, including China.

  • AncientWisdom on 18/05/2017 - 01:01

    All this discussion misses the point that what should have been a bi partisan policy (to fix internet connection in Australia) became a political fight and the whole country loses because of that, in a big way and for a long time.

    One other thing to consider: there was no professional backing (from engineers) to the libs plan - it was completely political.

    • scupper on 18/05/2017 - 12:31
      +1

      Unfortunately, our antagonistic style of politics means that a solution from an opposing party has to be wrong, and a different solution has to be better, and of course it has to incorporate their particular ideologies, and have approval from their corporate masters. To hell with value for money, future-proofing, and overall maximising the benefit to the public.

  • Diji1 on 19/05/2017 - 11:20

    NBNCo buys 15,000 km of copper wire (to add to the 1,800 they already bought).

    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/05/18/nbn_to_use_fttn_in_…

    FIFTEEN THOUSAND KM of copper wire.

    Remember this when you vote.

    • tonyjzx on 19/05/2017 - 22:53

      NBN is a non core issue.

      When its a choice between labor and liberal then GENERALLY the public will vote for liberal unfortunately.

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