As the title suggest, government will be abolishing 457 Visa.
First of all, I will wait until it happens. I have seen Turnbull announcing a lot of things only to realise that he can't do it due to political pressure or incompetency. But lets assume that it will happen this time, what do you think of this?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-18/government-abolishing-…
(Edit: Link to the article added)
Last one didn't work out too good
Abbott!
talented and qualified (not Abbott).
Donald?
Take a look at the list of the 200 jobs being removed. Some jobs are so obscure that surely nobody comes here on those grounds anyway. "Goat Farmer"?????
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-18/why-the-457-visa-is-be…
Then again I didn't know there was no expectation of previous experience to qualify for a 457, so maybe we have allowed 1000's of "goat farmers" in already!
Farmer for goats or a goat that farms?
The one good thing done
I liked #186 on that list. "Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Health Worker", doesn't seem like an occupation you'd find someone experienced overseas.
me thinks should be read as "Health Worker for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people", not as "Health Worker of Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander Origin".
I'm waiting for the announcement of a wall between Australia and New Zealand……
there is a ditch…
Anyway, it appears the net migration goes the other way at the moment…
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2016/02/02/more-people-mo…
FAKE NEWS
;-)
SAD.
Like trumps wall, its more about trying to keep your population from running away, than keeping others out
Are we going to make NZ pay for it?
So there's conflicting information about this.
I've heard from people working with those who just applied for 457 visas that their applications need to be immediately pulled and cancelled, as the changes take affect today (19th April 2017 the day after the announcement).
However, there's also the press release that says that the changeover from 457 to TSS Visas is March 2018.
Regardless of whether it's good / bad idea, Turnbull has again made a total (profanity) of it.
Doesn't affect people already here on a 457. It does however affect people who have an application in progress
If only the Govt would look at restricting offshore outsourcing and protect those Aussie jobs. That has caused more job losses to Australians than the 457. There is no requirement for companies to put Australian jobs ahead of overseas workers when making Aussies redundant and hiring a cheap worker in India etc. These workers are also much less skilled, and often barely even competent, yet an Australian gets put out of a job so a company can get someone for 50% or less of the cost of the Aussie.
These workers also pay no personal tax in Australia, no GST, don't spend their money in Australia, so there is an even bigger loss to Australia as compared to 457. But it all gets swept under the carpet because big business wants this to save themselves money and the Govt bows down to whatever big business wants, regardless of how many Aussies are losing jobs.
Just in my company alone we've lost about ~200 people in the last 1-2 years due to redundancies, most of those to cheap overseas workers located overseas (call centre workers, engineers who remotely monitor our engineering operations, IT workers, HR staff, Purchasing clerks etc).
I haven't ever really gotten the reasoning why if a job is shifted off shore to India or the phils why people say they are "less competent", it almost sounds racist.
I tend to think given they are (as other would say), 50% cheaper in wages, they can afford to spend more time training them to perform better. If the same job stay in Australia they would, probably receive even less training and be even less equipped to to answer queries.
I do feel sad Aussie jobs leave us, but either truth is, our brothers and sisters in India and the Philippines are getting decent jobs from our companies and pay their local taxes etc, it's not all bad. It is even likely that 50% of our wage to a fellow Indian is worth much more to him/her in lifting their living standards than for a brother in local Brunswick.
I tend to think given they are (as other would say), 50% cheaper in wages, they can afford to spend more time training them to perform better. If the same job stay in Australia they would, probably receive even less training and be even less equipped to to answer queries.
A while back I was doing a fair bit of IT work on sites like odesk/freelancer, etc. A good chunk of the work I received were from people who had already been burned by people in the philippines and india. more than a few times i had to be just like, "dude, it will cost you less if i start from scratch and do it properly from the get-go, than fix the (profanity) you've sent me.". some of the worst, most insecure code, error prone code i have ever seen has come out of the likes of india/philippines.
i won't say that they're all shit, but i think there is a definite different level of training/knowledge/expectations that are much higher here.
but either truth is, our brothers and sisters in India and the Philippines are getting decent jobs from our companies and pay their local taxes etc, it's not all bad. It is even likely that 50% of our wage to a fellow Indian is worth much more to him/her in lifting their living standards than for a brother in local Brunswick.
That also means people here aren't getting jobs, or paying those taxes into our local economy. more people on welfare, fewer people supporting welfare, etc.
I'm just saying 30k for someone in phils or india would probably support a whole family compared to 30k here, enough to support…well no one.
I can understand your IT experience, but with many jobs like Call Centre work, that's different.
This is another great example of Turnbull playing populist politics and ignoring the elephant(s) in the room. Hell, there are so many elephants in the room that we need to hire elephant trainers on 457 visas to manage all the elephants. Only we can't, because elephant trainer is no longer on the list!
They should also abolish visa 189 and 190.
they just got a hair cut, they have already done so much damage, esp in IT, just useless drift wood being let into the country with next to no English filling seats, that actually hurts the company by their incompetence, liabilities 90% of them.
I worked with way too many underqualified people on 457 VISA's in my last job. They where good workers, and grew into their roles. However there was no need for them to be hired over those already with access to work legally in Australia. It was jobs for mates from overseas. Not sure of too many countries that would allow Aussies to fill such roles in other countries - but IF there are some, then I would be all for a reciprical plan on a 1 for 1 basis.
(Roles where basic IT and Management)
I doubt that anyone would want to go to India or China.
Were, not where.
The stereotype is that it's Asians and Indians that are exploiting/being exploited with these visas but there are a huge amount of 'white' people involved in 457 exploitation. European companies have flooded into Australia in the last 10 years with the construction booms in the Eastern states and they're all bringing over their own workforce.
There's a huge English double-glazed window/door company, their ads are on the radio and they're in a lot of print media, who have entered the Australia market the last couple of years and a huge percentage of their sales, marketing and administration staff are Brits. I find it hard to believe that locals couldn't be employed in office admin and people from overseas can genuinely qualify for 457s for office jobs.
I don't think the new restrictions go far enough and that there should be a hard line requirement for all new migrants to go and live in a regional area for at least two years rather than just move straight to one of the big cities.
That is already the case for certain jobs, mostly in the medical field.
Not sure what a software developer is supposed to do in a country town though. I actually know quite a few who'd love to move to the country but can't because there's no work in their field there.
who is going to man the 7/11 or the service station?
Petrol will be expensive now
Time to start buying diesel.
I meant to say fuel
LOL
anyways petrol price is rised today
I know a lot of sponsors get paid to employ the visa 457 holders, they get from $50k - 100k for each application. The government is doing good job.
I wanted to add to this debate. I am one of a team that runs a small business that has hired people on 457 visas, we use it when we absolutely need to. Hiring workers from overseas is time consuming, expensive & takes months. All the people we have hired are on over $100k and are people we have failed to hire locally after lots of effort. We use the scheme for what its supposed to be for… when we've tried and failed to hire locally and we need the people to do the work.
We need the ability to hire from overseas, but what frustrates me is people using the 457 visa scheme to undercut us on cost. 95% of our people are local, we pay local wages & taxes however some of the larger firms we compete against bring in 100's of offshore workers, pay them well below the local market salary & undercut us as a result. They then send chunks of work "off-shore" paying no taxes & hiring few locals.
My simple rule would be make it $100k as a minimum salary for someone on a visa. Less than that and its not highly skilled & you should hire locally or train someone. Also, more than 25% of the people you are hiring are on the "minimum allowable wage" for the visa then this should raise red flags.
In summary, overseas workers are a good thing & Australia really needs them… just using this scheme to hire cheap workers when locals are available and willing to do the work is bad. Hope some of these changes fix the problems without making it impossible for businesses to still hire Highly Skilled Professionals.
I'm sympathetic. The main driver for the scheme was making it easier to find highly qualified people that AU has in insufficient numbers.
But adding cafe managers or cooks to the list is just a laugh.
If you need a e.g. CAD engineer with multiple years experience designing alloy aircraft parts, then I can accept there might be only a handful in Australia at any price.
But the idea you can't train a cook up (note chef's were listed too, this is the non-trade qualified job) is nonsense.
The reason your simple rule won't be adopted is there are relatively few businesses like yours doing the right thing, and many others rorting the system to avoid paying market wages. So the government needs to shuffle the chairs so it looks like they are getting the honest outcome, but without actually doing anything to stop the rorting. And politicians wonder why the electorate is so cynical.
"But adding cafe managers or cooks to the list is just a laugh."
The Chef's Line on SBS features chef Hong, the one who could not pass HSC and ended up in the kitchen.
Apparently during his 10+ years in the kitchen, it's extremely hard to get to chef level, because "60hrs a week, $40k a year isn't great".
Removing these hospitality titles from the list will somehow similar to Brexit, whereas you end up having sausage roll & vegemite on your plate.
Removing these hospitality titles from the list will somehow similar to Brexit,
Are you genuinely arguing it is a positive thing for people to be working 60 hours a week for $40k and being unable to afford to get better qualifications? The purpose of the scheme is not to entrench low wages (well, not the stated purpose!).
There's no better qualification I don't think. People do/study what they like.
Apparently if there're more and more restaurants, there'll be more need for cooks etc.
The core is most of all enjoy going out having a nice meal, leaving the numbers of server/cook well below the needs.
Anyway, "adversity makes a man wise". I'm looking forward to seeing how businesses response to these changes.
The core is most of all enjoy going out having a nice meal, leaving the numbers of server/cook well below the needs.
Do you think one reason it is hard for restaurants to find local cooks might be because working conditions are 60 hours for $40k? Maybe this is an area where letting the free market decide could be applied, with restaurants needing to pay higher salaries to attract locals to the industry, rather than importing workers from elsewhere prepared to work for less.
Come back to the real world, mister.
How many small businesses out there (restaurants, electrical, manufacturers etc.) could afford to pay the correct award?
SBS recently revealed a part of this fact: http://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/vietnamese/en/explainer/e…
And that's the way it is down under.
@phucanh_mraz:
We've seen a bunch of companies get adverse publicity for paying staff at illegal rates in the last year.
Your support of businesses who cannot "afford" to pay their staff properly makes it harder for legitimate businesses to be successful.
I'm not naive, I've worked in retail in the past, my kids do these days, and I understand underpayment is rampant across small business. My argument is that if they were more properly held accountable, marginal businesses that only survive by ripping off their staff would disappear, leaving less competition for businesses that pay their staff correctly, and new businesses that cannot profitably launch when the existing competition is illegally underpaying would be more able to start up.
The idea that because some or many 'small businesses' act illegally, you think it is fine mystifies me. Do you think you would go hungry if restaurants were forced to pay correct wages? Don't be absurd. Many, many already do. That there are some that don't is no reason to ignore the laws.
What other laws do you think should be ignored because some others do so?
If you are paying strongly, eg over 100k, then why can't your organisation pay for appropriate training?
Sure, we are. We hired 2 young 20 year olds with no real experience who we are training currently, both started 3 months ago, as they float up (will take min six months before we gain any return on them, a year generally & if they leave it really hurts) we will hire 2 more. We invest, we train but we still need to hire overseas as well.
$100k as a minimum salary for someone on a visa
a bit of an overstatement.
I consider myself as pretty high skilled but I'm not even being paid 100k…
What should be done (and which I thought it was) is that the paid overseas workers should be paid subjected to market price. So if other companies pay 80k for this position to work 40hour weeks, they cannot pay 50k and assign 90hour weeks.
That is actually the case.
Minimum income on a 457 is $54K and they must not earn less than Australians in the same position.
Doesn't mean that people bend the rules, apparently that is too easy.
They need to close the education loopholes. Too many foreigners are getting in on grounds of studying in Australia, and then becoming PR. If you do a professional year (a 1 year job in your profession), you get an extra 5 points when applying for PR in oz.
Let's ALSO get rid of the 485 visa. This does….
The Temporary Graduate visa (subclass 485) lets you live, study and work in Australia temporarily after you have finished your studies. Students are only able to access the Temporary Graduate visa (subclass 485) once as a primary applicant.
I think getting the best and brightest students that come to our shores to stay is a pretty good investment, no?
Obviously there needs to be more stringent checks and qualifications in order to meet the spirit of the visa, but the idea itself seems to be sound.
You get an appropriate degree in an industry where there is a lack of qualified employees, demonstrate you are able to work in that industry (hence the bonus points), demonstrate good English proficiency, then you get to stay. Australia is a nation built upon immigrants after all..
I don't have a problem with getting good students into Australia. I actually encourage that and agree with you that this is a really good investment. It is however important to ensure that we are getting the best students. Currently educating foreign students is big money in Australia (around 20bn) and this is because it is a backdoor to get permanent residence (as it is in Canada and several other countries).
In my opinion, the education industry provides routes in for average students. (In good times this is good for the economy because labour is generally in short supply.) In turn these average students then apply for the 'Professional Year Placement' which boosts their points assessment. They are paid very little for this privilege as employees know this is a good trade for someone wanting to get into Australia. This takes away a job for an Australian worker, adds competition in the labour force when Australian grads would be better without that competition.
This takes away a job for an Australian worker, adds competition in the labour force when Australian grads would be better without that competition.
Funny as it takes considerable more effort and background checks to hire an oversea grad than an Aus citizen.
'Professional Year Placement'
Professional year placement is not only available for overseas students. I did it as an Australian citizen after 6 months of not able to find a job in my expertise (still doing side part times) since I figured no one is gonna employ me if I don't get some experience.
This is the thing, when I told my still unemployed peers, the overseas people are willing to try where most of the Aussies think they should not take a lower rate for a year to gain exp.
Bear in mind, most of my Aussies peers were living at home with no financial stress (like me), where most of my oversea peers were renting out so if they took a rate cut (some internship don't even pay) they need to work extra hours after to cover their expense.
If they are willing to go that extra mile, then sorry I think they should get the job.
This same question applies
If people who cannot speak your language well, coming from a less educated country, who needs substantial background checks and no close support from family members are taking your job, who is it to blame?
Mate I came to Australia in 2010 as Master of software engineering student paying all the fees, living cost and etc. This includes: food, rent, bills and ect.
I was doing good and got selected for PhD scholarship, during my PhD I taught Australian young students and also improved university publicity internationally.
With all above, what I'm saying is do not generalize or label all. If you need a good country (like USA), try to be a magnet for brains). Even, if 90% of those students are not good, I still think that 10% can improve Australian future.
Btw, I'm citizen, and Australian values comes first to me.
Is a trolley person on the 457 list. Every trolley person is foreign.
As well as almost every ground floor worker at Coles, Woollies and Big W.
I have lost my telco engineering job not once but twice due to offshoring to India. If you walk in a Telstra building all you see is Indian people doing jobs that many of us got retrenched from. Why is this allowed is beyond me. These are 100k+ paying roles and the people brought from OS get 40-50k. Many big companies like Telstra abuse the system. I know cases where recruiters would ask Telstra to sponsor 457s because they can't find anyone locally which we all know it's just total BS.
There is always complains when dealing with offshored personnel due to language and total incompetence reasons but nobody is listening. Quality of the work these days does not matter anymore when you can do it for a fraction of the price. If you think that Telstra is an Aussie company, think again. Same goes for many more unfortunately and nothing will change until we get our own Trump into power.
nothing will change until we get our own Trump into power.
So you think Trump is the answer of our problem? I always wondered how Trump got majority of the votes from PA (a white collar state), but I guess you answered that question.
I never liked Trump and I don't think I ever will, but when it comes down to creating local jobs, I think he is doing the right thing. Apart from that, he's a lost cause. A bit like Pauline Hanson here.
What has he done to create local jobs in America?
Mate, he has the best employment policies, the absolute best. People tell me all the time, Trump is a job maker. He makes the greatest jobs, no one makes jobs better than Trump. He'll keep all the trash out of America and create high paying, wonderful jobs. It'll be beautiful. Anyone that says otherwise is FAKE and that's just SAD!! #somestupidbullshit #icantbelievepeoplestillbelievetherhetoricofthisretard
I believe all what you mentioned but I doubt that those Telstra engineers from overseas get paid only 40-50k. I have worked closely with large Indian IT companies who typically win multi-million dollars contracts of companies such as Telstra and alike and I have always seen that they pay very decent salaries to their employees, almost the same as local workers if not more. These companies are giants, probably in fortune 500 list. The sectors which undercut local salaries are the dodgy ones like food, hospitality, etc. It's not possible in IT. No good engineer will work for 50k. He is better off in his own country than coming here and work for such wages.
I can assure you that is the case. Best case scenario I saw was 65k and that was an exception to the rule. Usually it's more like 40-60k. I am not saying that is what Telstra pays, but the difference is pocketed by the dodgy recruiting companies. And as far as offshore goes, why are they allowed to offshore jobs when there is plenty of local demand? What does the government get in return? What does Australia get in return?
Sadly, the only thing that matters at the end of the day: better stock prices due to cost cutting.
seriously need to get rid of the indians in IT, stop delivering rubbish for me to cleanup
Seriously?
Have you not heard of Satya Nadella or Sundar Pichai…?
Believe me, I've seen enough incompetent Australian IT workers too. Every country has them.
You are kind of right.
Indians are half the reason why the IT Degree is worthless these days.
I was informed by some Indian IT workers who I admire, that many Indian Uni's only require you to get 30% in exams to pass.
Thats crazy.
But I think its also that its such a popular route for Indians. It seems a lot of the world including Australia can complete an IT Degree and know nothing about IT.
This is why any reputable company will either not ask for a degree or ask for it just for fun. They want a lot of local real world experience instead.
@samfisher5986:
Yup thats true. The degree is more just to prove a personal achievement. I am proud of my IT degree, although the grades are no longer relevant. The work experience is the most important part.
Apart from all the visa subject, I think best way to be valuable is to have good communication and relationship skills. Managers dont want to get rid of people they personally like.
This is by far the best decision which take care of lot of malpractices happening and helps provide justice to local job seekers seeking new career opportunities, who hitherto been disadvantaged due to 457 visa holders willing to work for below industry average salaries offered by recruitement agencies, who keep milking and gaining from 457 job seekers. 457 visa holders are prepared and willing to take any sucker punch given by the recruitement agencies to secure an available job and promise heaven and deliver hell in return for less pay. Some of them also pay big dollars to people to prepare them for job interviews, since they lack proper experience and just know how to shine in the interview. I hail this idea, since this will help eliminate lot of market imperfections and gaming by job seekers who are 457 visa holders. It's time somebody puts an end to it. Bravo
Hear hear
But what we got just a rebranded 457visa: as someone brutally pointed out 200 removed from the occupation list in the new scheme is only about less than 10% of the 457visa holders. The repeatly mentioned IT jobs stay on the list…
Isn't this just a political game?
My kids stopped trying out for barista/hospitality positions when after attaining their Certificates and other 'Responsible' this that and other, they would be called for numerous interviews by those places and always lose out to the 457 workers. How do we know, because when we went by those same employers, all we saw were Indian and Chinese hospitality staff. (Their only hope was Macca's/ KFC/ Red Rooster and the other fast food places - forget the cafes and restaurants)
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what a "457 worker" is.
Not every Indian or Chinese person is on a 457 Visa.
Your kids lost out to immigrant or foreign students who are probably willing to work for cash in hand, which is a problem but a completely different one to the issue of 457 visas.
I did a short stint at my local Coles in Sydney when I was finishing up my studies, and heaps of my colleagues were Chinese or Indian students who had Masters degrees but could not get jobs in their fields of study.
10 years later, most of them are still working at the same Coles and even back when I was there, they ran rings around any of the local kids, myself included.
We wanted days off to go out, sporting commitments etc and half of us would show up to work ripped out of their minds.
The "foreign workers" would travel from Western Sydney (1 hour each way at least) for a 4 hour shift and not complain and have 24/7 availability.
How can you compete with or argue against that?
The issues with foreign workers and 457 visas is a lot more convoluted than what the media and the Liberal party conveys.
There is definite rorting going on and exploitation of the system and I am 100% against this but I feel like this media circus will drum up negative views towards legitimate foreign workers.
For reference, I run a commercial construction company and some of our subcontractors hire what many would refer to as "foreign workers".
These workers are all vetted by the Australian Border Force for our government projects, a process that includes Visa and Police checks for each individual before they can set foot on site.
Not a single one of these guys have had any issues with their visas/citizenship or immigration papers, have all had squeaky clean police checks and are the hardest working people I have ever seen in my life.
We would be doing our country a great disservice by completely shutting out foreigners or painting them all with the same brush, the funniest thing of all is that it is Australian citizens and business owners etc who are exploiting both the systems and the foreign workers.
Agree with most of what you say..
My only hope is this will spur investment by locals in education and skills.
Education and training is extremely important but the struggle is how do we get people to rural areas where the shortages are hardest hitting?
No one wants to leave metro areas and even the 457 workers who initially go out there are probably coming with the premise that eventually they will move to a Metro area as soon as they can so it is already flawed from the beginning.
The sad reality is that whatever system we have, there will be loopholes and exploitation occurring.
I've seen many places like Woolworths replacing them with foreign workers because they just don't abuse the leave system like hell.. Apparently the locals love to abuse the crap out of it according to he manager
Woolworths doesn't sponsor 457 visa for store workers (it's not high skilled job). So those you are referring to aren't foreign workers. They are Australians (may be of international origin) or at worst those on student visas. It has nothing to do with 457 visa.
So you are saying the government doesn't need to spend money on these visa changes they just need to change the work ethics of young aussies?
If rort was to be stopped, food and hospitality occupations were the first ones to be removed from 457 visa list in my opinion. Why do restaurants need to sponsor employees for 457 (of course against pile of cash) for roles of 'restaurant manager' and then use them for the lowest of the positions in their business? Just because it would tie the poor employee to that business for a few years and he won't utter a word against low wages, cash wages, at times no wages or quality of work! Once he gets his residency after spending a couple of years on 457 visa, he gets free from the employer but by that time both employer and employee have exploited the system for their own benefits.
Student visa -> Exploitation of loopholes in the system through 457 -> Residency -> Citizenship
Obviously I am not generalising it and many (probably majority) cases are genuine but it will be rather interesting to see what government does to stop the dodgy ones.
No system is ever perfect. You raised an exact point but could you propose a solution?
The answer is NO. The policy makers all rubbed their heads out for this issue but unfortunately there's no way out. It's similar to Aussie exploiting Centrelink payments issue by splitting family (single mum) or work for cash in hand and get employment benefits.
At the end of the day, there're more issues to worry about, there're more deals we should spend time searching on…just let the market decides.
Well said
I could be wrong, but I find it hard to believe that cafes are bringing in visa 457 workers for a barista position.
Assuming that I could find that profession in the old 457 list, what benefit would it bring to hiring a 457 worker over a local worker, considering there is a minimum wage with the visa.
Not all Chinese and Indian people are visa 457 workers.
And if they were international, e.g. an international student, working part time, then that's not relevant to this change.
What you're saying is true. 457 is for skilled workers and it's not easy at all to get it. The Chinese and Indians you see in McDonald's or Caltex are working holiday, students, ect.
the loop hole I heard was many indians paying 150k to the local pizza company get hired at 75k per year for 2 years - declared as "Chef" by pizza company and get permanent residency in 2 years time.
you heard wrong…
to be declared as chef you need to complete a degree as a chef as well as work in a kitchen environment for 2 years, as well as constant checks and selection process
it is not that easy to get permanent residency…
a degree in chef?
Yes, this is obvious. Like many occupations, someone with to many degrees may find it hard to get employment. A chef with to many degrees would just get burnt.
Its makes no different. Just a fancy political move. There will be "new" 457 and dodgy companies still make money from it.
Given that the exact system will continue to exist under another name, I'd say Turnbull is hammering the "save my job" button as the veins begin to show on his forehead.
Makes no difference, 457 was just a way to abuse the loophole… There are hundreds other around to get cheap wage.. It will make no difference if it gets abolished or renamed, even the white Australia policy didn't stop the Chinese from finding a loophole to come into the country from a different state.
These visas are designed to pitch local workers against the foreign workers and act in favour of the employers.
People who think 457 is the reason you have lost job think this
If a person who cannot speak your language well, coming from a less educated country is taking your job, who is it to blame?
I think it wont solve anything, lazy Aussies will still be lazy Aussies taking unemployment payment and trying to look for a dream job that earns them 100k+ and have little responsibility.
The thing that needs to be changed is the welfare. If welfare gives out food coupons to exchange food and only food for unemployed (make sure basic survival). I am sure employment rate will rise
A gross oversimplification of the matter.
I hope that whatever they put in place of the 457 we can still bring in someone talented and qualified to be Prime Minister.