Uncertified electric devices

Ltwocsies on 22/11/2016 - 22:16

I checked the wiki and searched the forums but didn't see an answer to this question, although it did come up in regards to the USB charger issue a little while back.

Certain devices are not legal for import into Australia or to be sold because they are not certified. The name given to these devices in the laws is prescribed/declared/proclaimed articles, and the government decides which types of devices should be on the list. For example, electric kettles are on the list. No uncertified electric kettle can be sold, but the actual laws regarding such prescribed articles is up to the states. Other articles include chargers, microwaves, electric blankets, etc. A full list is available here: http://www.esv.vic.gov.au/Electricity-Professionals/Electric…

However, each state makes the laws on enforcement, so although it seems like WA says it's illegal to use these devices, QLD was less rigorous in the area so does not seem to have a specific law against privately buying it from Gearbest and then using it there.

Every single state has come out on their gov websites and suggested that nobody should be buying these types of products. Insurers refuse to payout because these products are uncertified. They can all cause fires if they are badly made. Certification can ensure that the products are safe, so all declared articles must be certified if they are to be sold in Australia.

So my question is, should we have these types of uncertified, quasi legal bargains listed on OzBargain? Should we report these bargains because it's not a bargain to have unsafe electrical equipment in our homes? Or should we just let people do their own research and buy them if they like?

In particular, this kettle: www.ozbargain.com.au/node/277311

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Comments

  • Clear on 22/11/2016 - 22:55

    You'd be surprised at how many uncertified products are in peoples houses. Some stores like Jaycar sell devices that haven't been properly certified.

    I personally use Xiaomi power strips which aren't AU certified. I have them disconnected when not in use to be safe.

    • Maverick-au on 23/11/2016 - 00:37

      You'd be surprised at how many uncertified products are in peoples houses. Some stores like Jaycar sell devices that haven't been properly certified.

      Exactly, people seem to think that if it has a sticker or was purchased from K-Mart it will be magically safe. How safe can a $7 toaster or kettle be from K-Mart. Do the maths, they have to manufacture it, box it, ship to Australia, pay imports costs, distribute it, put it on a shelf and warranty it! Actual cost of manufacture would have to be under $1.

      • foxmulder on 23/11/2016 - 00:44
        +4

        Most electrical items sold in big retailer are generally submitted for safety check thus they will have the safety mark.

        • Maverick-au on 23/11/2016 - 00:48
          -1

          Most electrical items sold in big retailer are generally submitted for safety check thus they will have the safety mark.

          Sure but most of those items have changes made to them after they have their "safety check" and there is no-one performing independent checks of products to verify that they are safe. This used to be a state government responsibility but no-one does any checking on any product until something happens.

          The safety checks in Australia are no more thorough than most other countries.

        • twocsies on 23/11/2016 - 12:49

          @Maverick-au: there is no-one performing independent checks of products to verify that they are safe

          The ACCC performs some of these inquiries. For example, a Kogan quadcopter was recalled just weeks ago for failing to meet standards in its power pack. http://www.applianceretailer.com.au/2016/10/kogan-recalls-dr…

        • pais on 23/11/2016 - 14:31

          @twocsies:

          The regulator for the recall you've linked is EnergySafe. The ACCC isn't tasked (or equipped to deal with) what the kind of regulation you're talking about.

          In all likelihood, the reason it was investigated in the first place is because the parent company wanted to clamp down their regional supply chains.

        • twocsies on 23/11/2016 - 14:44

          @pais: "The regulator for the recall you've linked is EnergySafe. The ACCC isn't…"

          If you're hung up on it, maybe you can ask news.com.au to clarify. "The drone came to the attention of ACCC which confirmed certain components had not been tested to correct standards." http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/retail/festive-fails…

          @Maverick-au claimed "no-one is performing… checks". In just the last month, the drone was recalled because it was checked. Therefore, someone is performing checks. Whether EnergySafe or ACCC did the checks, @Maverick-au's comments were not completely in tune with actual post-certification product safety. There are regulatory bodies in place, and there are regulations regarding certified products that extend past the certification process. Due to these types of inconsistencies in his remarks, I would not pay much attention to his arguments.

        • mskeggs on 23/11/2016 - 14:52
          +1

          @pais:
          A great example of what a furphy the compliance check is.
          The local distributor paid to get the compliance tick, then whinged when the same product was being grey imported.

    • rodinthink on 24/11/2016 - 10:54

      "Xiaomi"

      That's quite a reputable brand to be paranoid with

      • Clear on 24/11/2016 - 11:31
        +1

        They're using CN plugs which are thinner and have no insulation compared to AU.

        Besides their phones, almost every other product is made from another company and put under the Xiaomi Brand. They've invested or own over 50 companies.

    • antzz on 25/11/2016 - 02:14
      +2

      Exactly correct with many uncertified products in peoples home. However if you look from other perspective, how many fire happens in australia due to these devices? Statistics wise would make certifying every electrical device like an overkill and put a tax on the economy.

      When you need an electrician to change a light bulb, thats when safety goes over the top and put strain on economy

  • PVA on 22/11/2016 - 23:03
    +1

    Yep, I think uncertified 240 v stuff like light bulbs or your example the kettle shouldn't be a deal here.

    • Maverick-au on 23/11/2016 - 00:32

      Yep, I think uncertified 240 v stuff like light bulbs or your example the kettle shouldn't be a deal here.

      Why? And Australia is 230V but they don't want the public knowing anything about how the magic of power works so I'm not surprised to see 240V being quoted all the time.

      Why is this kettle unsafe? Why can't people take responsibility for their own decisions?

      Using your idea of uncertified products I wouldn't have purchased my Bosch mower from Germany. There would be no more deals on amplifiers from Europe. No more deals on phones from Asia. Let's get rid of all the deals for Android TV boxes. Any products like desktop hard drives are out as well. In fact pretty much every product from overseas that people import directly would be affected.

      • twocsies on 23/11/2016 - 01:49
        +1

        Hard drives are not declared articles. Media boxes are not declared articles.

        • Maverick-au on 23/11/2016 - 01:58
          -5

          Hard drives are not declared articles. Media boxes are not declared articles.

          You really do have no idea do you! They have AC power supplies that plug into MAINS POWER, are you saying there is no approval required? Is that really your argument? Sheesh.

          Using your logic these deals just posted would be illegal on OZbargain and police would arrest the importers as soon as customs notify them of the illegal imports.

          Pioneer VSX-1131 7.2 Network Multi-Channel Receiver €497 / AU$713 Delivered @ Amazon Germany
          https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/277491

          Philips Sonicare DiamondClean Electric Toothbrush - 3 Colors to Choose, £84.99 (Approx $138) Shipped from Amazon UK
          https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/277489

          Huawei W1 Stainless Steel Classic Smartwatch with Leather Strap £153.93 (~AU $259) Delivered Amazon UK
          https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/277480

        • twocsies on 23/11/2016 - 02:07
          +1

          @Maverick-au: You're using a strawman argument. HDD and media boxes are not on the list of declared articles, so they are not regulated in the same way as articles like kettles, microwaves, and electric blankets.

          Power supplies may be, but a watch? Please, you're dominating the conversation but blowing things out of proportion. Next you'll be suggesting I said that nobody can use brains because electric impulses flow between neurons.

        • Maverick-au on 23/11/2016 - 02:10
          -2

          @twocsies:

          You're using a strawman argument. HDD and media boxes are not on the list of declared articles, so they are not regulated in the same way as articles like kettles, microwaves, and electric blankets.

          All of the items I listed have AC power supplies that plug into the AC mains and they are required to undergo the same testing.

          Power supplies may be, but a watch? Please, you're dominating the conversion but blowing things out of proportion. Next you'll be suggesting I said that nobody can use brains because electric impulses flow between neurons.

          How do you think the watch charges? It has a AC power supply that plugs into the AC mains. This is required to be approved and ordering from overseas it will not have the special magical Australian certification. This is your arguement in a nutshell, if it's not approved it's not allowed.

        • twocsies on 23/11/2016 - 02:39
          +1

          @Maverick-au: If it's a declared article, the states regulate it. Some states have legislation regarding importation of declared articles. If you receive a package in the post, you are regarded as the importer, even if you did not ask for the package to be sent to you.

          Philips Sonicare DiamondClean Electric Toothbrush - 3 Colors to Choose is not a declared article.
          Huawei Smartwatch is not a declared article.
          HDDs are not declared articles.
          Media boxes are not declared articles.

          Finally, we get to one problem: Pioneer VSX-1131 is a declared article. The question I have posed above is whether it should be listed as a bargain on OzBargain. I'd propose a middle solution, that it could be posted as a forum topic but not as a bargain because it's not suitable for sale in Australia (obviously it's a debatable position).

        • Maverick-au on 23/11/2016 - 03:21

          @twocsies:

          If it's a declared article, the states regulate it. Some states have legislation regarding importation of declared articles. If you receive a package in the post, you are regarded as the importer, even if you did not ask for the package to be sent to you.

          You keep making this up as you go along, you said at the top that a charger is a declared article but now you claim it's not.

          Philips Sonicare DiamondClean Electric Toothbrush - 3 Colors to Choose is not a declared article.
          Huawei Smartwatch is not a declared article.
          HDDs are not declared articles.
          Media boxes are not declared articles.

          All of the above have AC MAINS CHARGERS so are all ?????.

          Finally, we get to one problem: Pioneer VSX-1131 is a declared article. The question I have posed above is whether it should be listed as a bargain on OzBargain. I'd propose a middle solution, that it could be posted as a forum topic but not as a bargain because it's not suitable for sale in Australia (obviously it's a debatable position).

          I proposed another solution, people like yourself stop sticking your nose into other peoples business and you stick to buying your $7 toaster and kettle from K-Mart because it's safe as it has a sticker.

        • twocsies on 23/11/2016 - 03:36
          +1

          @Maverick-au: Sorry, I'm wrong. An amplifier is not a declared article.

          The question is really whether anything can be done to inform people that the products that are advertised do not meet Australian standards. I've already proposed a different venue than the main bargains thread. But now I will propose another: some type of tag that indicates that the product does not meet Australian safety standards. If the OP doesn't put the tag, it can be added later when it's found that the product wouldn't be sold in Australia.

      • Architectonic on 24/11/2016 - 12:19

        Australian electricity is still 240v nominal in most states.
        http://www.ewh.ieee.org/r10/nsw/subpages/history/Australian-…

        • Maverick-au on 24/11/2016 - 15:01
          +1

          Australian electricity is still 240v nominal in most states.

          Australia is officially 230V however Queensland, the ACT and Western Australia have not converted yet but are in planning or testing stages.

          The old 240V voltage range falls within the new 230V range anyway.

          Old standard 240V nominal +6/-6% 254V to 225V
          New standard 230V nominal +10/-6% 253V to 216V

          "Queensland is one of the last areas where low voltage (LV) supply is still supplied at 240V1. Most of the world and other Australian states (except Western Australia) use the international standard2 of 230V (+10/-6%) introduced in 2000."

          https://www.ergon.com.au/network/network-management/network-…

      • bargaino on 24/11/2016 - 13:28

        Why? And Australia is 230V

        Speak for yourself. Over 240V here. Unless I turn on the oven, kettle and aircon together - then its 230V :-)

  • Maverick-au on 23/11/2016 - 00:28

    You have no idea what you are talking about as I have pointed out many times. Australia does not get to tell the rest of the world what can and cannot be sold.

    The WA link that you gave talks about the IMPORTATION AND SALE or RENTAL of the items.
    "This fact sheet summarises electrical safety laws for importing, selling or hiring out electrical appliances and equipment in Western Australia."
    "For this reason, the Electricity Act 1945 prohibits the sale of household electrical appliances unless approved by an Australian regulatory authority."
    "The Electricity Act 1945 provides for the Director of Energy Safety to prescribe the appliance classes and types that must be approved by the Director, an interstate regulatory authority or a designated agency before they can be sold, hired or advertised for sale or hire, or imported into Western Australia. These appliances must go through a certification process which ensures a safe design before they can enter the Australian or New Zealand markets."
    "A "Certificate of Conformity" is issued if the person intending to sell an appliance satisfactorily demonstrates that he or she has accepted the responsibility of ensuring the appliance is safe for use."

    The LAW is very clear that you can import goods for your own usage, it's people like you that ruin it for everyone because you want increased levels of bureaucracy for everything. Australia has the highest rate of electrical deaths out of the first world countries and we have the most restrictive laws, do you think that adding more laws will decrease the deaths or as we have seen increase the deaths?

    The point is that just because something has a sticker on it doesn't mean it's safe. Take responsibility for your own safety, learn about electricity, examine items that you have purchased and make your own decision on the use of the item. Do you think that stickered $7 kettle from K-Mart is safer then this Xiaomi "un-stickered" kettle?

    • twocsies on 23/11/2016 - 01:00
      -3

      The LAW is very clear that you can import goods for your own usage

      Nobody's stopping you from producing the reference that hints the veracity of the statement in regards to class 3 electric products. The law is very clear that not all goods can be imported, for example illegal drugs. I do feel it may be legal to possess a kettle for personal use in some states, but not because of any specific law but due to a lack of one.

      As for the safety of a product that mixes water and electricity, for electrocution Huawei's steel construction is likely less safe than the plastic Kmart one, but for fire, the Kmart one might have slightly more risk of combustion.

      • Maverick-au on 23/11/2016 - 01:07

        I do feel it may be legal to possess a kettle for personal use in some states, but not because of any specific law but due to a lack of one.

        Wow so now you're trying to claim that possession of a kettle is illegal…… LOL.

        As for the safety of a product that mixes water and electricity, for electrocution Huawei's steel construction is likely less safe than the plastic Kmart one, but for fire, the Kmart one might have slightly more risk of combustion.

        Huawei??? What does an electronics manufacturer have to do with this? You have no idea about construction and electrical safety do you? The plastic K-Mart kettle has no metal in it? What happens when water contacts the power? I'd go for a metal construction anyday. Hint look up earthed appliances.

        • twocsies on 23/11/2016 - 01:40

          Ok, so now your electricity flows through plastic. Hmm. You touch your faulty ground exposed metal; I'll stick to insulation.

        • twocsies on 23/11/2016 - 01:43

          I do feel it may be legal to possess a kettle for personal use in some states, but not because of any specific law but due to a lack of one.

          Wow so now you're trying to claim that possession of a kettle is illegal…… LOL.

          Uh, what? I said I feel it may be legal. Now you're trying to claim that "may be legal" means "is illegal"? Come on.

        • Maverick-au on 23/11/2016 - 02:02

          @twocsies:

          Ok, so now your electricity flows through plastic. Hmm. You touch your faulty ground exposed metal; I'll stick to insulation.

          Wow you really do have no idea. How do you think the water is heated?

        • twocsies on 23/11/2016 - 02:03

          @Maverick-au: the numbers are too low to be statistically significant

        • Maverick-au on 23/11/2016 - 02:03

          @twocsies:

          Uh, what? I said I feel it may be legal. Now you're trying to claim that "may be legal" means "is illegal"? Come on.

          No you said it MAY be LEGAL to possess a semi automatic KETTLE for PERSONAL use in SOME STATES thus inferring that it is ILLEGAL in other states.

        • Maverick-au on 23/11/2016 - 02:05
          +1

          @twocsies:

          the numbers are too low to be statistically significant

          35% more people are killed in Australia than NZ.
          NZ's death toll started dropping immediately when they allowed homeowners to do work on their electrical systems, prior to this we had the same death toll.
          NZ has the same standards as we do.

        • twocsies on 23/11/2016 - 02:43

          @Maverick-au:

          Uh, what? I said I feel it may be legal. Now you're trying to claim that "may be legal" means "is illegal"? Come on.

          No you said it MAY be LEGAL to possess a semi automatic KETTLE for PERSONAL use in SOME STATES thus inferring that it is ILLEGAL in other states.

          No, you made an incorrect inference to conclude that the real meaning of what I said would be an inference about some other states that are not the relevant detail. If you think about it, you will see that I have conceded that in some states (namely NSW) there seem to be very few regulations regarding importation and declared articles. By using the precise wording, I do not concede anything about other states, but because it's so unclear, you can bet your bottom dollar that I will be chasing this up with the legislators who have nothing better to do than Make Australia Safe Again.

        • twocsies on 23/11/2016 - 02:46

          @Maverick-au:

          35% more people are killed in Australia than NZ.
          NZ's death toll started dropping immediately when they allowed homeowners to do work on their electrical systems, prior to this we had the same death toll.
          NZ has the same standards as we do.

          The numbers are too low to be statistically significant. To present statistically insignificant numbers with an intention to fool others that correlation implies causation, I say that is a substandard argument. Deaths doubled in the UK after they allowed homeowners to do work on their electrical systems, but again, the numbers are too low to be statistically significant.

        • Maverick-au on 23/11/2016 - 03:24

          @twocsies: 35%>The numbers are too low to be statistically significant. To present statistically insignificant numbers with an intention to fool others that correlation implies causation, I say that is a substandard argument. Deaths doubled in the UK after they allowed homeowners to do work on their electrical systems, but again, the numbers are too low to be statistically significant.

          Our laws were the same for the ten years prior to the change and the death rates were the same, the law is changed in NZ and within a few years the death rate had dropped by 35% but you call it insignificant despite all else being the same.

          Your UK example is wrong, the rate went up when they banned some householder work.

        • twocsies on 23/11/2016 - 03:49

          @Maverick-au: sorry, if you have not got an understanding of statistical significance, then I cannot do much. What I can say is that a lack of statistical significance is not an indication of insignificance. It is a simple measure that lets us know whether the numbers are large enough for us to use them with reliability.

          Next thing you'll be trying to convince us that speed limits are killing people and that nobody should need to wear seat belts.

        • Maverick-au on 23/11/2016 - 04:07

          @twocsies:

          sorry, if you have not got an understanding of statistical significance, then I cannot do much. What I can say is that a lack of statistical significance is not an indication of insignificance. It is a simple measure that lets us know whether the numbers are large enough for us to use them with reliability.

          The stats speak for themselves, it's people like you who choose to ignore them.

          Next thing you'll be trying to convince us that speed limits are killing people

          They are. Northern Territory is a prime example.

          and that nobody should need to wear seat belts.

          That's just plain stupidity.

        • BensonP on 23/11/2016 - 06:19

          @Maverick-au:

          I'm not here to argue semantics about compliance, buy I am wondering, are you honestly suggesting plastic is conductive? And there are no metal parts in plastic kettles?

        • mskeggs on 23/11/2016 - 09:04

          @Maverick-au:
          I wonder if the cause and effect is when I need to pay $100+ to get a sparky out to fix that dodgy light switch I just live with it and then it causes injury, but if I can replace it myself for $10 at the hardware store I go ahead and do it.

        • ESEMCE on 23/11/2016 - 09:13
          +1

          @Maverick-au:
          Australia has ~6 times the population of NZ.. so if your "35% more people are killed in Australia than NZ" statement is accurate, ie for every 100 people in NZ that are killed, 135 are killed in AU, then electrical deaths are statistically lower in AU than NZ!

          ie 135 deaths in AU divided by 22 million population is statistically far lower than 100 deaths in NZ divided by 4 million population.

        • mskeggs on 23/11/2016 - 09:59
          +1

          @scubacoles:
          The issue is so few people are killed that reliable stats can't be drawn because the sample (of deaths) is too small.
          If one person died in each country last year, it isn't reasonable to say NZ has 6 times higher deaths from electrocution, even though that is statistically demonstrable.
          And the reverse is also true, if one died in AU and none in NZ it doesn't make NZ infinitely safer.
          This website:
          http://www.energysafety.govt.nz/about/publications/accident-…

          Has stats on NZ fatalities via electrocution. The general public has had 20 fatalities in the last 22 years from all sources. It separately lists reported accidents and fatalities, of which 27% were related to appliances. So the historical risk of danger from appliances is very, very low. It may be growing from importation of dodgy appliances, but this isn't visible in the stats.

        • ESEMCE on 23/11/2016 - 10:20

          @mskeggs:
          Very Interesting statistic there! I'd argue that 22 years worth of data was statistically significant.

          For the record I am actually a supporter of relaxing the laws on home cabling..
          With common sense, care and minimal knowledge most home jobs are fixable. The problem is the surprising lack of common sense!

        • mskeggs on 23/11/2016 - 11:18

          @scubacoles:
          I'm with you on relaxing home cabling, but doubt it will ever happen.

          The numbers are so low, less than 1 member of the public dying from electrocution each year, and that includes people contacting fallen power lines etc., that it makes it hard to conclude things like safety worsened or improved after a legislative change.
          If one person survived an injury caused by them doing their own wiring because an ambulance happened to be around the corner it would be recorded as an improvement in fatalities under the new regime, for example.
          Because there are so few deaths, there is no 'averaging' occurring to smooth out distortions by freak occurrences.
          I am no statistician, but the people that are can calculate when a number within a population becomes large enough to draw averages etc. from. Similarly, they can say how many years of improved figures are needed before it is likely to be a new trend rather than noise.

          With so few incidents, it is likely to take quite a while before conclusions can be made with much confidence.

        • twocsies on 23/11/2016 - 12:42

          @mskeggs:
          There are comprehensive statistics going to 2010 here: http://www.erac.gov.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=art…

          If we look at Graph 1.5, it seems to show that Australia's unintentional electrocution deaths slowly decreased from 2.0 to 0.8 per million between '99-'10. But at the same time, New Zealand's stayed relatively constant around 1.5 per million.

          16% of deaths by electrocution are caused by electrical appliances. http://www.voltimum.com.au/articles/alarming-statistics-rele…

          Note that faulty appliances can also cause fires, but these statistics are separate from the electrocution statistics.

        • Maverick-au on 23/11/2016 - 12:48

          @BensonP:

          I'm not here to argue semantics about compliance, buy I am wondering, are you honestly suggesting plastic is conductive? And there are no metal parts in plastic kettles?

          I didn't say plastic was conductive nor did I say there were no metal parts in kettles. Read again.

        • Maverick-au on 23/11/2016 - 12:52
          +1

          @scubacoles:

          Australia has ~6 times the population of NZ.. so if your "35% more people are killed in Australia than NZ" statement is accurate, ie for every 100 people in NZ that are killed, 135 are killed in AU, then electrical deaths are statistically lower in AU than NZ!

          I can only assume you're being obtuse as I have constantly referred to death rate.

        • ESEMCE on 23/11/2016 - 12:53
          +1

          @twocsies:
          That's a 3 year moving average graph of electrical deaths per million…
          Australia's variability is reduced by having significantly more people than NZ.
          1 death in NZ = 0.25 deaths per million, versus 1 death in Australia = 0.042 deaths per million.

          So what looks like a bad year for NZ in 2006/07 elevates the 08 and 09 graph.

          We need more years to determine whether NZ is a trend or just an anomaly. They appear to have had home wiring rules only since 2007.
          Is it coincidence that 06/07 was a random anomalous year or indicative of higher risks is too hard to judge, but the fact 08 and 09 don't continue to increase further probably swings the balance towards 06/07 being an anomaly year.

          Table 1.3 is a fairer comparison..
          Queensland to NZ (roughly the same populations) have similar death rates, but for NZ's "freak" 06/07 year and ignoring that year, NZ's rate compares favourably to AU.

        • mskeggs on 23/11/2016 - 13:17

          @twocsies:
          16% of deaths are from appliances or installation repeated volitum quoting a press release.
          The Figure 3.4 in the latest report you linked:
          http://www.erac.gov.au/images/Downloads/Erac%202009-2010.pdf

          Shows almost three quarters of those 16% were related to fixed wiring.
          So 4% of total deaths were related to the actual appliance in all causes (noting graph 3.3 in the same report says 71% of those were deliberate misuse of tampering). So maybe 1% of deaths are attributable to appliance deterioration or failure by those figures.

          I think it is sad that over the last decade something like 3 people died from electrocution from an appliance where they hadn't tampered with it, and that certainly jibes with the single instance that received such high reportage of the poor woman who died from a dodgy phone charger, but do you think OzBargain placing a warning on posts will have any impact?

          If you think it might somehow reduce that very small number, how do you think that might happen? If you think it would have no impact, why raise it?

        • twocsies on 23/11/2016 - 13:29

          @mskeggs: Note that electrocution is only one hazard. Fire is the most likely cause of injury and property damage to arise, far more than electrocution. Every week we see another house burnt from faulty electrical appliances.

        • mskeggs on 23/11/2016 - 14:10

          @twocsies:
          Where was this wekk's and where was last week's?

          I hate to be that guy, but you keep making assertions that don't stand up to scrutiny.
          The figures I can find on the causes of fires show all electrical causes at 5% or below:
          http://www.fire.nsw.gov.au/page.php?id=171
          [tab 6 in the spreadsheet for 06/07 is the most recent - on a side note, why have the government agencies stopped recording these things? Electrical safety figures from 2010 and fires from 2007 aren't good enough}

          Since the issue here is uncertified products causing fires, we can eliminate all the overloaded powerboards or faulty approved goods.
          So even if uncertified appliances have caused fires (and I believe there have been two as a result of hoverboards) it must be a tiny number.

          Ironically, googling shows that one of those hoverboard fires was from a compliant device!
          http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-05/hoverboard-ignites-cau…

          I put it too you, that incidents where faulty appliances cause injury or fire attract massive media attention, so the single incident of a faulty charger electrocuting somebody, and two hoverboard fires make you think this is a significant problem, but it is in fact very rare.

        • rompastompa on 23/11/2016 - 15:00

          @mskeggs:

          I wonder if the cause and effect is when I need to pay $100+ to get a sparky out to fix that dodgy light switch I just live with it and then it causes injury, but if I can replace it myself for $10 at the hardware store I go ahead and do it.

          I have exactly that! I have a dimmer switch that no longer works (Dimmer controls 4 down lights, and now when it turns on, two lights are on full and flickering, the other two are off).

          Idon't use those lights any more, as it's in a home theatre-ish room and there are an additional 4 lights that are energy saving, so we use those.

          There may be a day when someone else turns the dimmer lights on and something happens, but can't justify paying a lecky to fix some lights which I don't use.

        • twocsies on 23/11/2016 - 15:14

          @mskeggs: Where was this wekk's and where was last week's?
          https://www.google.com.au/search?q=house+fire+electrical+app…

          At any rate, my point is: the government these items are illegal to import and sell. That's because the government has determined that they are dangerous, and every state has urged Australians not to buy these items.

          Rather than address the fact that they are illegal for an Australian company to advertise these products for sale, you seek to weaken my explanation of why the government has determined they are dangerous. Experts have convinced the government that these articles are dangerous, and the government has ruled that they cannot be considered safe without undergoing the certification process. NSW Fire says that kitchen electrical appliances cause many fires. Maybe you consider the number of home fires to be tiny, but you don't make the regulations.

  • mskeggs on 23/11/2016 - 09:34
    +3

    I think you are over thinking this.
    "Should we report these bargains because it's not a bargain to have unsafe electrical equipment in our homes? "
    You are likely unable to tell the safety or otherwise of an electrical item from a website photo. Since there are a number of safety standards other than Australia's, it seems overly cautious to say an item that meets the, e.g. EU standard (which I understand is predominantly stricter than ours) is unsafe and shouldn't be used in Australia because it hasn't also been certified here.

    The link you gave in the original post points to a website about suppliers of electrical gear:
    http://www.esv.vic.gov.au/Electricity-Professionals/Electric…
    First paragraph:
    "This section provides information about meeting requirements for selling safe and efficient electrical equipment and appliances.
    There are regulations that apply to the supply of electrical equipment and appliances. The requirements set out in the regulations must be followed. A failure to do so is a criminal offence."

    The prescribed list is a shorthand for businesses wishing to import stuff to be able to tell which things can't be sold without approvals, it does not say that devices are banned from use. For example, the prescribed list of items includes hair dryers, yet every hotel in the city will have tourists who brought and are using non-certified hair dryers.

    The language of the relevant act backs this interpretation:
    57 Prescribed electrical equipment
    (1) Energy Safe Victoria, by notice published in the
    Government Gazette, may declare that any class,
    description or type of electrical equipment is,
    from a date specified in the notice, prescribed
    electrical equipment for the purposes of this Act.
    (2) A person must not supply or offer to supply
    electrical equipment prescribed under subsection
    (1) unless the equipment—
    (a) is approved by Energy Safe Victoria and is
    marked as prescribed etc.

    As for the comment that insurers won't pay out for issues caused by uncertified appliances, I haven't seen anything definitive, but would be keen to see such info.
    I can't find any exclusion under law (nor would I expect one) and the PDS I have handy from my home insurance doesn't make such an exclusion.
    There are some web hits for sites in the USA and blog comments like this one ;-) but nothing that appears more than conjecture.
    I remember some hoverboard fires and tried to see if there were reports of insurance being refused for those, but couldn't find that info.

    • twocsies on 23/11/2016 - 12:31

      I note that you're jumping in a little late. The link to Vic that I provided was to show that not all states are identical in their treatment of electrical devices, and I think I showed that NSW has the weakest whilst WA the strictest legislation. Every single state strongly urges that consumers do not import uncertified electrical devices from abroad, but not every state is as strict in its laws.

      I think we can all agree that a kettle is an appliance that cannot be sold in any state in Australia. Nobody can buy the Huawei kettle and legally resell it now that it's in Australia. Furthermore, there is no procedure for determining that the kettle is safe other than certification, i.e. it cannot be electrically tested.

      As for insurers not paying out for issues, it really depends on your contract. When we knowingly use unsafe products, insurance companies can the principle of subrogation to recoup money. Some contracts may waive the insurers right to subrogation, and when purchasing insurance this should be a concern, especially if you use many uncertified electrical devices in locations such as rental properties where harm to other people's health or property can result.

      As for hoverboards, did they cause a lot of damage? If they were lucky, then the house didn't burn down. It really doesn't matter if there's an issue that doesn't cause a house fire. If a fire inspection subsequent a fire finds that an uncertified electrical device was responsible for the blaze, then the insurance may pay for the damages to the insurance holder, and then is legally entitled to seek money from the person responsible for the unsafe electrical article.

      Finally, I don't see the question as a simple yes/no binary. Rather, it is how can people on OzBargain use the wisdom of the crowd to understand the certification of electrical products. I have proposed a number of alternatives:
      1. Don't allow any bargains for these products
      2. Allow all bargains with no restriction
      3. Have a custom tag or warning for non-compliant electrical devices
      4. Ask that the poster include that information in the post
      5. Deal with it in the comment section

      Currently, OzBargain follows number 5 (though it is not always a flame war). There is no information about this in the Wiki, but I am suggesting that something could be done. Legally, I don't think OzBargain must remove all declared articles from the deals listing, but morally I would suggest some kind of standard warning could be helpful.

      • mskeggs on 23/11/2016 - 12:59
        +1

        I think you are reaching at straws.
        The law says you can't sell a number of electrical items if they haven't had local approvals. That is all.

        The local consumer trading authorities remind people goods imported from overseas haven't had the same safety testing as local goods, and they could be dangerous. These bodies are dealing with the public, so they take the most cautious approach "don't plug in imported electrical items!".

        The law is more nuanced and seeks only to stop the local sale of unapproved items.

        Your comments about insurance is just panic mongering, and is a big step back from your confident "Insurers refuse to pay out" in the original post. Sure, insurance companies might try and sue somebody who plugged in an uncertified item, but the reason why I am keen to hear of examples is because I don't think it has happened. I can legally sue you for spreading uninformed speculation on the Internet, but until a court upholds an example of such a scenario it is just speculation.

        So far, OzBargain follows the law without repeating warnings and disclaimers that everyone ignores (see USB-V below, for example) so I don't really see a moral case for more disclaimers.

        If anything, I would be very cautious were I you. Now you have publicly stated your belief such warnings are necessary, you are open to a lawsuit for negligence should such an item be posted and you don't make a warning in the comments section. Sadly, for some people, common sense doesn't enter into it and they may believe your opinion that such warnings are necessary and wish to hold you accountable for failing to provide them. Luckily, the law doesn't require them so you should be safe.

        • twocsies on 23/11/2016 - 14:00

          If anything, I would be very cautious were I you. Now you have publicly stated your belief such warnings are necessary, you are open to a lawsuit for negligence should such an item be posted and you don't make a warning in the comments section.

          Uh, nothing to say, except who is really "reaching at straws"? I would point to this thread and establish that I asked what OzBargain would like me to do if I saw that a warning was necessary. To this point, as there has been nothing official stated, it appears that I will continue to bring it to attention in the comments when I see these products that cannot be sold or imported in Australia.

          I stepped back from the insurance claims, not because they aren't true, but to establish some common ground, which you failed to accept. Do you really think insurers are very generous and seldom refuse to payout? The insurers have a legal justification for not paying for unsafe products.

          If you have no desire to see my points of view or work towards a common ground, then I'm sorry. Every state strongly recommends that these items not be purchased on the Internet.

        • mskeggs on 23/11/2016 - 14:22
          +1

          @twocsies:
          Sorry, the idea of somebody suing was a joke.
          I don't think that disclaimers are necessary or helpful in the context of links to products from a website like OzBargain.
          I understand you have a feeling that these products present a meaningful danger and that you have a feeling that it might result in insurance complications.
          But I think its reasonable to ask you to back up your feelings with some evidence that the problem is as serious as you feel it is.

          Looking at it, and the links I have posted show any electrical appliances being unsafe accounts for a tiny amount of deaths. I am aware of only one that can be attributed to uncertified electrical items.
          And it appears faulty electrical items cause a small number of fires, I actually thought the two hoverboard incidents might add to this, but it appears at least one was certified.
          So I don't think you can conclude anything about house fires started by uncertified products, but I am open to you showing me some.

          And you can't point to any evidence of insurance payouts being refused because of uncertified appliances either, and I agree insurance companies would be likely to try this if there were grounds.

          So why would it be a good idea to ban these products on OzBargain or place disclaimers?
          Considering there are many actually dangerous items on OzBargain (cars, fast food, alcohol, petrol, knives) why choose to pursue these items that aren't against the law to use and seemingly result in only tiny risks?

        • twocsies on 23/11/2016 - 14:38

          @mskeggs: To be fair, until the past five years it has been more difficult to import electrical appliances. Nowadays, websites like OzBargain make it easy for Australians to urge other Australians to import these devices.

          Kettles are declared articles, as are microwaves. "Every year cooking appliances and equipment, including microwave ovens, are involved in causing many house fires." http://www.fire.nsw.gov.au/page.php?id=880 "Each year Fire & Rescue NSW attends approximately 2,500 kitchen fires - or approximately 56% of all residential fires. More than half of all home fires start in the kitchen." http://www.fire.nsw.gov.au/page.php?id=879

          As for why I would "pursue" these items, these items are illegal to import and sell in Australia. Every state strongly urges that Australians not buy these items. Similarly, illegal knives are not listed on OzBargain. My question is why you would suggest that it's a non-issue that doesn't merit discussion.

  • Speckled Jim on 23/11/2016 - 11:18
    +1

    Last autumn, a 40cm Celcius branded pedestal fan with IR remote was purchased for $5 from our local Coles.
    It's the CELPF400RW.
    I assume it's certified.

    A clearance bargain, however I wish my partner gave it a miss!

    Pick up the box and feel the engineering promise of paper-thin alu stampings and poorly molded recycled plastic. Assembly confirms it. Manual elicits paranoia:
    6 Do not operate while unattended.
    Turn the selector switch to "0" (Off) and then:
    Turn power off and unplug.
    Always unplug when not in use.

    It features an IR remote and sleep timer (up to 7.5 hours). But don't you dare fall asleep with it running! Don't use the Off button on the remote and keep it in standby either. The above statement in the manual directs you not to.

    So they're having it both ways. They're approved, but shouldn't really be given how poorly they're made. They include features that you're advised not to use in the manual.
    Hardly encourages peace of mind, does it?

  • [Deactivated] on 23/11/2016 - 11:45

    USB-V All the above is for this litigious world.

    Remember the obese woman years ago in the USA spilt take away coffee from Maccas on her lap burning her legs? She sued and was given a bloody fortune in payout. Now take away coffee lids are marked 'caution contents hot.'

    Don't know if you have every read the 300 to 400 page book that comes with a new motor vehicle. Some of the warnings in there are laughable but they are there for the lowest common denominator. Sometimes that doesn't help.

  • 1800computers on 24/11/2016 - 09:24
    +3

    I want to make a point about this.

    I have customers coming into shops with faulty AC power cables that have broken or not working, these cables are coming from eBay from those compatible laptop chargers. They have no protection, Certification or any safety at all. The cables them selves are low rated and very thin and can be ripped apart by just pulling them with my hand.

    The sellers have no respect for anyones' safety or life.

    eBay is the biggest source of non certified, dangerous electrical products, including but not limited to fake 18650 batteries, solar chargers, battery chargers, mobile phone batteries, power adapters of any kind. It's just scary.

    Buy genuine products which meets AU safety standards, pay $20 more for that laptop charger, that $20 extra will save your $50,000 home contents or even $1m house!

    Don't risk it and don't keep giving business to shady sellers.

    • jackary on 24/11/2016 - 10:12
      +4

      You'll have to tell that to my half a dozen frayed (certified!) MagSafe chargers - one of which threw me to the ground before any visible signs of cable damage. Are you a computer tech or an electrician?

      TL;DR: my customers are idiots - don't buy cheap products online, buy them from me for $20 extra - mine has a tick on it.

      When did we all become so precious? Should we put disclaimers on every pair of sunglasses on OzB that may not meet UV standards too? Now a sugar tax is being proposed, should mods put a warning next to every discount box of Coke?

      For gods sakes - government beurocracy is not an alternative to having and/or using your brain.

      • gimme on 24/11/2016 - 10:40

        100% with you. We rely too much on govt regulations/standards to protect us (in many cases these are flawed with questionable processes and vested interests) to the detriment of using our own brains. Just the way govts want it these days anyway. Look at the number of dodgy supplements being sold in Australia and people are lapping it up. It's on a shelf at priceline so it must be safe. Yea right.

      • 1800computers on 24/11/2016 - 11:01

        Buy anywhere, eBay, online or retail, I support all and I buy from all these places too - just don't care where - just don't buy crap, fake, dodgy, non-certified electrical goods. Sure we really too much on gov/regulations etc… but we need them, do you want every one to be a electrician and expect them to know all the little safety details? No! We rely on the tick of approval, ISO certifications etc… they are there for a reason, make it easy and simple for consumer that this product should be safe and meets AU regulations & standards. But many products on Internet online/ebay especially do not meet these standards. There are genuine eBay and online sellers selling good quality products that meet the safety and AU regulatory requirements too. Buy these.

        • gimme on 24/11/2016 - 11:49

          I agree there are there for a reason and part of the reason is consumer protection but a large part is just business… all these certifications bodies are a business and what they produce is a commodity so a lot of discretion is needed. No substitute for good judgment (as opposed to blind faith)

      • 1800computers on 24/11/2016 - 11:06
        -3

        Regarding the "half a dozen frayed (certified!) MagSafe charger" - at least if your house burnt or personal injury and you've got some sort of insurance - they will cover since the product was certified - if it wasn't, then that would be their escape boat.

  • robertbruce on 24/11/2016 - 15:08

    yerrr nah, your all wrong…
    .
    the floodgates opened for this crap years ago when local council enforced federal safety standards.
    In this case, trip-switch's in your power-box's for everyone…a fantastic innovation really.
    One of the downsides was the re-interpretation of the device's built-in safety standards, The importers where able to select stock with less safety componentry relying on council by-laws of installed safety-switches.

    China-Syndrome…
    I flicked my kettle on one day, waled out of the romm and stalled for a few minutes past when it should have flicked off. On returning to the room the jug was glowing brightly from a very intense ball of light sitting at the bottom of it. It hadn't drawn enough current to short strong enough or in the right manner to trip the switch. Instead it looked like a min nuclear-reactor about to blow.
    It had an approval sticker from Vic, thus they where allowed to sell it into Qld.

    • jackary on 24/11/2016 - 23:15

      Yearrrrrrrhhhh narrrrhhhhhhhhh mate, you're wrong.

      Cool story about your shit kettle though.

  • Jabba the Hutt on 24/11/2016 - 19:30

    This deal came with what appeared to be the AU plug version of this charger, which is perhaps not merely uncertified, but certifiably dangerous.

    Question is, how do you get the word out to those who bought that tablet and are using that charger?

    • foxmulder on 24/11/2016 - 19:36

      The charger even it's not AU, it has the RCM tick. You can see it in the charger photo.

  • [Deactivated] on 02/12/2016 - 18:04

    I wonder why we don't follow the UK/Singapore/HK certifying process. The ultimately aim (as well the standard) should be very similar.

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