Banned from smoking in own apartment?

Just a question about how to deal with some new neigbours and who exactly is in the right.

As for a bit of background, my aunt has recently moved into a new off-the-plan apartment, lives alone and has been smoking for about the last 40 years. I personally hate cigarette smoking and have tried to get her to quit numerous times but it has always failed.

Yesterday, she got this endearing anonymous letter (I think it was delivered to every apartment in the complex) in the mail criticising her for her "disgusting habit" which she does in the privacy of her own apartment/balcony. It goes on to say that she should leave if she wishes to continue smoking or face financial penalties (and I'm assuming the disdain of this particular individual).

While I agree that smoking is not healthy, the cowardice of this person by not even approaching us to discuss the issue and immediately labelling her as "disgusting", then resorting to threats and demands that she kick her addictive habit is really getting to me. She was initially quite happy moving into her new apartment but now feels like she will suffer prejudice from all her neighbours over something she feels she has no control over.

I was just wondering if I am in the right being upset over this and how I should proceed.

P.s. She owns the place outright

Update: I've calmed down a little and thought through how I should approach this issue. I personally hate cigarette smoking as it gives me allergy like symptoms (as well as seeing it take another family member due to SCLC) but I also know that preaching and repetitively telling people not to smoke and to seek help in terms of quitting won't change anything, especially given the cultural background of my aunt (this is not to say I won't try, I just know it's an effort that will fall on deaf ears). I'll probably just tell her that she should ideally smoke outside of the complex and I'll also purchase her an airfilter rated for cigarette smoking for those times if she really wants to smoke inside (I can tell her not to but I am just being pragmatic and preparing for the inevitable situation where she will ignore this advice and just smoke on the balcony). I'll try and avoid hostilities and will refrain from letter writing (but funnily enough 3 more letters popped up over the last few days regarding noise, dogs and parking, nothing to do with us though) and will attend the AGM to see how things go.

Just as an aside though, what also struck me was the intense intolerance funneled towards smokers and this perception that they are pretty much all selfish individuals who don't give a s*** about anyone else in society, while I do see how smoking is selfish, why does one group of people deserve such vilification? The relevant studies show that while second-hand smoking does cause lung cancer, the risk it adds is 1.2x - 1.3x the rate observed in non-smokers (when exposed for a extended period). I'm not trying to say this is an insignificant amount but does that really justify the vilification of a group of people? Does it really necessitate a blanket intolerance against smokers without trying to explore other options? If your answer is yes, then what about other things in society that cause harm indirectly i.e. consumption of fossil fuels, McDonalds, any other fast food, pollution of waterways, antibiotics and steroids in our foods (some of these may be even more harmful than second-hand smoking, especially since their presence is pretty much ubiquitous). I just feel that maybe our attitudes towards smokers has become almost irrationally intolerant (especially when considering the actual amount of risk and what we deem to be acceptable in other aspects of life) and perhaps reconsider whether or not the vilification of a group of persons based solely on one trait is an appropriate thing to do.

Comments

        • @mrsi:
          The smokers don't own the pub.

          The pub is privately owned but services the general public. It is classified as public accommodation and is entirely different to the balcony of a private residence.

        • @tshow:
          In the end none of that matters.

          The quiet enjoyment by law wins, which every strata will have.

          In nsw the onus is on you not to disturb the quiet enjoyment of your neighbours. If your idea of quiet enjoyment is music so others can hear it at 10pm, and it disturbs your neighbours, youre not allowed.

          Same principal with smoking. If it disturbs others, falls under that by law, and is not allowed.

        • +4

          @ChickenTalon:
          My previous neighbour smoked 50 a day and it came straight into my window….they eventually moved out, my new neighbour also smokes. However, he is considerate and does it as far away as possible or goes downstairs. My body corp is in the process of banning smoking on balconies. If people just had consideration, all would be fine, however, many smokers are just plain selfish and deserve to be evicted if they disrespect others right to fresh air…..by the way ….been to the football, train station, work or pub lately????? can you smoke there?????

        • @mrsi:

          But the frozen urine falling from the airplane toilet evac chute in large chunks may kill you.

          Source: Mytbusters season ? episode ?

    • +1

      Absolutely bang on.

    • Well done!

  • If your neighbours do the decent thing to talk to you, do listen to them

    Otherwise just stick to your legal rights, they can move elsewhere if they do not like it.

  • Know of a similar event, friend has a dog in a animal free apartment, all the neighbours had cats so they pretty much were allowed to get away with it.
    Dog being a dog, decided barking was cool. Bam evicted, strata didn't care that everyone else had a cat.

    Really good to watch out, neighbours will stab u even if they are breaking the same rules.

    • +2

      Seems like a good thing. I have a quiet dog in strata, but I'd be super shitty if a neighbour bought a dog that barked a lot. Personally, I hate cats, but how much barking do the cats do?

    • +1

      neighbours will stab u even if they are breaking the same rules if you have an annoying yappy dog.

      FTFY.

  • -3

    Does she rent or own the apartment ?

  • +1

    Taken from Domain on proposed rule changes to smoking in units;
    Smoking

    The proposal: a small but significant note on the section on residents’ behaviour identifies smoke drift as a potential “nuisance” under the legal meaning of the word.

    The intention: rather than placing a blanket ban on all smokers, this allows strata communities to police their own buildings where, for instance, people might be able to smoke like chimneys without bothering anyone.

    The effect: it’s very much up to individual owners to decide what they want to do about neighbours’ smoke.

    “A property owner has certain rights to do as they please in their home but they also have a duty of care to ensure they don’t cause a nuisance with their neighbours,” says leading strata lawyer and chairman of the Owners Corporation Network, Stephen Goddard. “By identifying smoking as a nuisance, this allows owners to take action without passing a bylaw imposing a ban on people smoking in their homes, which would be a serious reduction of property rights and almost certainly illegal.”

    • +3

      In Qld you can still smoke in your own unit….just not on the balcony. Smoking on the balcony sends the smoke straight into the neighbours windows. smoking inside your own unit diffuses the smell better. Go ahead, kill yourself in your own smoke infested cancer ward. Just don't smoke on the balcony.

      • Hi, would you mind share the source of this Qld law? Thanks.

        • Talk to your body corporate manager. We are in qld, it was passed under the "causing a nuisance to other residents" rule…..now smoking is banned in all balconies and stairwells. If you want to smoke….go out on the street, or do it in your own unit(Windows closed).

  • It is clearly a bluff as an "anonymous letter" is not the correct procedure for such an issue. The correct thing for the neighbour to do is

    1. Have a polite discussion with the neighbour to work out a way to mitigate the issue (and "NO SMOKING" is not an option, however putting things in place so that smoke/butts doesn't reach common areas is an option), and if that doesn't work

    2. to raise it with the Body Corporate. It is then up to the Body Corporate to find a solution, and if that still doesn't work

    3. take the matter to the Civil Administrative Tribunal in your state.

    I can sympathise with smoking getting in the way but the neighbour has really shot themselves in the foot by being a pain in the ass about it.

    Just be aware that one of the neighbours is out to her your aunt so just be extra careful not to do anything wrong or they will jump at anything they can.

    Do not purposely aggravate the situation and attempt to keep the smoke away from others in the common areas as far as practically reasonable.

    Any more stupid threats are to be ignored.

    Only deal with the Body Corporate.

    This shit is why I hate apartments. Just get your own block of land and then all you need to deal with are the pricks at the council.

  • +1

    It's an interesting situation/law because it's hard to judge who is being unreasonable. As mentioned above there are new strata laws coming into effect regarding smoking and bbq on your own balcony. So unfortunately your aunty may actually be at fault. It's just hard to judge on a forum.

    One of my friends was asked to stop his balcony bbqs even thought it's only a small portable bbq.
    I wonder of this would apply to general cooking too.
    I remember looking into a 3Rd floor apartment In homebush but decided against it when I couldn't stand being on the balcony due to the srilankan/Indian familys cooking smells coming up from the below balcony.
    I'm ethnically very close and normally have no problem with that aroma but this was unbearable.

    So it makes me wonder if in that situation they could ask you to stop smoking, but you couldn't do anything about other smells you find just as repulsive.

    I guess this is part of the apartment life.

    • +1

      I doubt the occasional BBQ would cause offense, and is quite different to the constant need of smokers to light up.

  • +19

    Good on the person for writing that letter and doing so anonymously if she wishes. Your aunty has no problem subjecting her neighbors - who don't smoke - to breathing in toxic chemicals… why on earth should they show her any respect at all?

    They should set up a fan blowing in the direction of your aunt's home, concoct a toxic chemical mixture that causes cancer like cigarettes do, light it on fire, and blow the fumes into your Aunt's air space every day. Give her a taste of her own medicine. Do exactly what she is doing to them. If you want to smoke those fumes into your lungs and destroy your health in a place where no one else has to breath it in, fine - i have no problem with that. Kill yourself as fast as you can by smoking, the sooner you die the better, so we - the 90% of Australians who do not smoke - can enjoy fresh air again. But if you are smoking in your backyard and forcing your neighbors to breath it in too - which is what she is doing - I hope you die of cancer. No compassion for these despicable people doing this to their neighbors and their neighbors kids.

    The neighbor under me in a block of apartments smoked. I have health issues and breathing issues and i was constantly on edge running and closing the doors and windows everyday. I could never leave windows open and get fresh air because of this a-hole. A few times, when i'd just moved into the apartment and before i had learned this jerk-off's smoking patterns (5-6 smokes in the evening and sometimes at breakfast and during the day if they were home from work), I'd leave a window open and come home and my whole apartment was full of smoke. Thanks you selfish, disgusting a-hole.

    If you want to breath that shit in, fine. But forcing others to breath it in as well - which is what you are doing by smoking on your balcony - means you are piece of sh#t human being. It should be illegal in apartment buildings and backyards. It should only be legal in the middle of the highway.

    If i started burning chemicals and creating toxic cancer causing fumes in my backyard or on my balcony and each day it blew into other peoples homes I'd be thrown in jail. Yet it's somehow acceptable to subject your neighbors to the exact same thing - by smoking your disgusting cigarettes. People absolute loathe you and despise you behind your back for your selfishness. You are hated.

    I'm guessing it's exactly how the people who wrote the letter feel — they are struggling with the concept of being forced to smoke - breathing your aunt's cancer causing, asthma inducing toxic cigarette smoke into their lungs on a regular basis - even though THEY don't smoke.

    • +5

      That's exactly what I felt living next door and on top of people who smoke. Same running to close doors and windows. Coming home to my bedroom full of cigarette smoke. And then getting the death glare from that damn neighbour when I shut my window. Hope karma does exist.

    • i sense subjugating hate speech from lrd.

      what about sugar, coke, fats, oily foods, pollution…

      who do you think pays (tax money) for cleaners?

      i'd rather agree with comments further above - "drawing the line somewhere". line between 'own freedom' and 'consideration for others'. and also about being amicable and adjusting… not hateful.

  • I'm wondering where the civil rights advocates sit on this one.

    Is it the freedom/right of people to enjoy clean air? Or The freedom/right of people to enjoy their own legal indulgences in their properties?

    I think the question here is the smoke wafting into people's houses.

    If I smoke, its my habit/addiction that I cant control.
    If it is burning incense/offering it is my religious rights.
    If I am just burning newspaper for the fun of it, I am an annoying (profanity) thats giving other people nose cancer.

    You want the freedom to do what you want, or the freedom from others to do what they want to you?

    Do some civil rights take precedence over others?

    • +1

      None of these are rights. Smoking is not a right - nor is there a right to clean air. Find out what a right is. Don't abuse the word. They are very special.

      The only one that comes close in your list is "burning incense for religious reasons"… that is quite interesting. We do have the right to freedom of religion in Oz. One of our very few. One could probably make a good case to burn incense for this reason, even if it upsets the neighbours + strata, if one is genuine.

      • We have very few legal rights under Australian law.

        Even the freedom of religion that derives from section 116 of the Australian constitution is rather limited as it only applies to the Commonwealth law.

        A church or mosque being built still has to apply with planning laws e.g. having sufficient off street car parking. Religious killing of animals e.g. for kosher or halal meat, still has to comply with our animal cruelty laws.

        For the case of burning incense - as long as the law was worded in a general way e.g. banning smoke from affecting neighbours and was applied equally to the non-religious burning of incense as well as religious burning of incense, I believe that the courts would uphold the law.

      • +1

        Implying Australian constitutional rights are the only kind of rights.

      • Wasn't my intention to abuse the word. It gets thrown around so much by people screaming "my rights their rights our rights" that I have come to associate it with moral entitlement. I do not have any power nor any say when it comes to rights but thanks for telling me that the word/term actually means something special.

        A quick google in Wikipedia.

        "Rights are legal, social, or ethical principles of freedom or entitlement; that is, rights are the fundamental normative rules about what is allowed of people or owed to people, according to some legal system, social convention, or ethical theory.[1] Rights are of essential importance in such disciplines as law and ethics, especially theories of justice and deontology."

        Is this what rights are? It seems that, you do have a right to do whatever you want in your own house as long they comply with federal, state, council and strata law/policy?

        In this case, the allowance for certain desires and behaviours do take precedence over others as has been decided by greater governing bodies.

        Anyway, back to the case. I feel the greater good of society always takes precedence over the demands of an individual (Which is where I stand on this matter and not many might agree with me).
        I worded "If I smoke, its my habit/addiction that I cant control." in response to the OPs "While I agree that smoking is not healthy, the cowardice of this person by not even approaching us to discuss the issue and immediately labelling her as "disgusting", then resorting to threats and demands that she kick her addictive habit is really getting to me. She was initially quite happy moving into her new apartment but now feels like she will suffer prejudice from all her neighbours over something she feels she has no control over" which seems like an attempt to win the crowd over by eliciting pity.
        So then, I take it Charity, Trongy think that one should not have the "right/entitlement/prerogative/priviledge" to smoke on one's balcony if it affects neighbours negatively?

        I thought I had saw a few posters advocating for addicts here? Wonder where they went.

  • +8

    I'll also add..

    You said the people are cowards for writing the letter anonymously. But people could say you aunty is a coward for not having the courage to quit? I find it comical the level of selfishness… she is feeling unhappy now because THEY don't want to breathe in MY cancer-causing smoke and got upset… without any concern for the neighbors happiness.. i.e. wanting to breath regular non-cancer causing air. She wants to quit, but can't, so other people have to suffer too? You said she feels like it's something she has no control over. Does she have control of her legs… maybe she could walk to the front of the apartment complex and smoke there… so all her neighbors who do have control of themselves don't have to suffer because of her dirty habit she has no control over.

    But i bet she just keeps smoking on her balcony and forcing everyone else to do so too - even though they dont smoke and dont want too. Because that's what she's doing. Legally unless strata rules prevent her from doing so, my understanding is there is nothing anyone can do. Other than hate her guts.

    You asked for opinions… i assume you wanted genuine ones… not just to be validated by people who share the same (selfish) opinion as you. So there you go.

    • +2

      not having the courage to quit… eh, i doubt it is that easy, it is sometimes called an addiction and some people that have been smoking for years have it well anchored in them.

      but yes why inconvenience other people, and if making her walk to the front of the appartment (please don't throw the butts everywhere)can help decrease how much she smokes why not - even if some don't want to quite we all know it's bad and we shouldn't smoke.

      for the neighbor threatening with the letter, why not just sort it out with a friendly smile and knock on the door first, i can understand OP feeling it as an anonymous aggression. whether legal or not, why be so procedurial, don't courts have better things to do ?

      just asking the aunt nicely maybe would have made her change (especially if there were kids or goodness knows) now it has just installed a cold ware atmosphere and a power struggle (which would probably make me cook, fart and find many odouress activities under your window)

      i don't smoke and would be annoyed by the aunt, but i would have asked her nicely first

    • -1

      maybe she could walk to the front of the apartment complex and smoke there…

      Genius!
      What of the wind blowing it back to her building, or to neighbouring properties? Does she, as someone with an expensive addiction, now have to take responsibility for the wind too?

      You were born into a dirty world, where people were smoking for hundreds of years before you came along.

      This remains a legal, locally manufactured product that, in most cases (certainly in Auntie's) is purchased from a retailer with all duties paid. If you want purity in the air you breathe, you're outta luck — the world has been polluted for decades.

      If you don't like the smell of cigarette smoke, then lobby your local council or MP for subsidised smoking booths. All that expense for ~10% of the population?
      Well, yes. It certainly appears to be a pressing issue for you and others. I'd say anything less than a million signatures for an online petition would prove me wrong.

      But if it's such an existential threat to non-smokers, you really should get this underway.
      You want clean air? Take action. Change.org.

  • +7

    Smoking is the dilemma of 21st century! How the hell it is not illegal?
    Apart from that, just because it is your own property it does not mean you can do whatever you want, those who suggested so are a bunch of … interesting people!
    But, sending direct letters to the owner or even sending it to all residents also would get them into hot waters.

    • +6

      I'm also wondering the same for alcohol. I've yet to see a benefit being used for recreational purposes.

      • Same. They don't usually remember what kind of fun they had last night anyway.

      • you've obviously never had a good degustation dinner with paired wines.

  • -1

    Write a letter back stating that the coward who wrote this is disgusting and can go get fd and when they grow some balls come knock on my door and explain the problem/negotiate….Sure cigarette smoke stinks maybe come to an agreement and get a filter or something…or cut the habit back, or get an ecig, or have smoke free hours from 5-8 while its dinner time or so.

    I'm m sure a filter would help

  • +5

    I guess now would be an ideal time to quit.

  • -1

    Can you please give us an update of how they respond after your auntie tells em to get stuffed!!!! Hahaha

  • +8

    I might hate smoking, but this post has reminded me how much I hated apartment living, I could never go back to it! :/

    • +1

      Sound like a sh*t fight. Apartment living that is.

  • i remember reading somewhere recently that in some melbourne cbd apartments, they are thinking of banning the use of bbq's as they release too much smoke. not sure if its the same for standing on your balcony and smoking. guess your aunt will need to look at the rules and regulations of the building to see exactly where she stands, and if necessary, raise it with the building manager, who can then advise residents if smoking is permitted or not.

    • -2

      bbqs, bushfires, flatulence, motor vehicles (particularly buses and trucks).

      The world is a dirty place. While commercial/development/mining/transport activity continues, it will remain so.

      Tell ya what, if you're offended by worldly odours, keep your windows shut and your A/C filters clean.

  • +4

    Tell her to quit smoking or to go keep her place airtight and smoke in there herself so she isn't affecting others.

  • +2

    She can smoke as she likes. I hope she gets over this unpleasantness and quits smoking on her own terms!

  • +3

    take the opportunity to quit

  • +1

    I don't smoke and guess this could be pretty annoying but if we are going to ban people smoking in their own house we need to ban the following as well. 1. Barking Dogs, if you can't train it not to bark it needs to be banned, especially the stupid little yap yap dogs that bark at their own shadows. If you want a dog fine but don't burden others with it. 2. Any type of modified exhaust on a car, why should I be woken up by someone’s stupid exhaust every morning, what's the point in it besides making you look like a tosser?

  • +3

    People making noise and air pollution just for the sake of recreational purposes should be banned.
    1.she could smoke in a air tight room
    2. Don't smoke for long period of time
    3. Go to a park and smoke there
    4. Try quiting because she WILL die early.
    I used to have neighbor that smoked and BBQ often, I went to talk to them, but it turned into an argument. The letter was more effective afterwards. Now, I don't see how talking to them will fix anything.

  • There is always a huge different between what is legal and what is ethical, and also huge different between what is unethical and what is illegal. Eg; Stealing a medicine from a pharmacy for a life threatening situation because you cant afford it; Also smoking within 5 meters of entrance while all the smoke is going into the door or window. As a smoker i would say that i have huge issue with my smoking and i tried to quit several times with no success. Please dont judge me because im smoker. I do know that people have the right to have their window open and enjoy the fresh air without the smell of cigarette, but i also believe in smokers who are paying $25 for a pack of Marlboro gold at convenience store who may be contributing alot of money to your centrelink payment or affordable living scheme. To the guy who sent the letter without his name i would say you are a loser and we smokers are way better than you because we smoke in front of the public with our face shown compare to you hiding behind a computer screen writing a letter and describing other human being as having a disgusting habit and later drop it in the mail box.

    • +7

      The money you pay in taxes for cigraettes doesn't cover anywhere near the health burden placed on the system from diseases due to smoking. So no, you dont contribute to centrelink etc

    • Are you saying that smokers aren't centrelink payment for their healthcare??? Pretty sure healthcare bills for a single smoker will be enormous. Smokers are pretty much paying their own future hospital bed service.

      • +3

        I'm pretty sure that Centrelink pays for cigarettes moreso than the other way around.

        • In that case it should be banned.

      • They're not actually, because the government doesn't put all the money back into health care! But yeah, smokers are suuuch a burden on the system.

  • +2

    Hi OP. Your aunt is from a different generation, a time when smoking was a right. My parents told me that labour unions even forced employers to provide mandatory "smoko breaks" (ie. 15 minute work breaks).

    I was just wondering if I am in the right being upset over this and how I should proceed.

    It is very Okay to have care and concern for your family members. However that doesn't make what they are doing right.

    This isn't exactly an equal analogy but if your Aunt was a drink driver would that be OK? If so, then how would that be OK? Would you still stand up for your Aunt to keep doing as she wants?

    OP need not do anything. The strata laws, civil law suits and neighbour escalations (eg. notes, negotiation, yelling, threats, vandalism, etc…) will pressure her mentally, socially and financially. She is only one lady, they are 50 neighbours + strata managers + strata lawyers + strata fees + council lawyers + court magistrate + police + debt collectors + … etc …

    Your Aunt has her life and you have yours. You are younger than the aunt. As an elder, she knows that she has more responsibility.

    Old people don't like to change. You are already lucky to have an aunt that listens to you and gives you consideration.

    If the aunt is decidedly not going to give up smoking + unwilling to change to a suitable address then I'd recommend talking with other smokers for advice.

    I'm not a smoker but perhaps there are legal alternatives like e-cigarettes, smoking in the car WITH the windows up, smoke legal zones (eg. gambling establishments). That way she is legal and there is nothing that strata + neighbours can do.

  • +5

    When I lived in a unit the bloke below us used to chain smoked, his smoke used to come out his door and straight into our place, stunk the whole place out.

    We were so glad the day he was too unfit to live by himself and was moved to a nursing home. They had to get industrial cleaners in to clean that place out and remove the stains off the walls / windows of his place.

    Don't care if you smoke but ffs don't breath that shit onto other people who don't. Its disgusting.

  • +9

    "over something which she has no control"

    She definitely has a choice whether to be a smoker or not.

    Furthermore smokers have too many rights that they never should have had in the first place. They have the right to smoke inside their home, outside their home, on the balcony etc.
    Non-smokers have no rights. I know this myself. My neighbours smoke. I enjoy having the windows open and a fresh breeze coming in. They always smoke in their backyard because they wouldn't want to stink up their home. So whenever they smoke, I get to smell it all throughout my house. I have to close all my windows up and I don't have the right to getting fresh air through the house unless it's tainted with smoke and 2nd hand cancer.

    The current status quo favours smokers and is unfair to innocent bystanders.

    • +1

      She definitely has a choice whether to be a smoker or not.

      Do you know the definition of "addiction"?

      Furthermore smokers have too many rights that they never should have had in the first place.

      Cigarettes are still available from your local supermarket. Sure, they cause health problems, but so do 70% of the other products in that same supermarket! What you're basically saying is that cigs should never have been sold.
      Hate to break it to ya, but that particular horse bolted long before you and I were even thought of.

      So they're available to anyone over 18. What do you suggest they do with them? Thanks to plain packaging, they're even less suited to ornamental applications. They're designed for one thing.
      Have a guess.

      If your immediate environment is upsetting you, hermetically seal your dwelling and ramp up your AC. The way prices keep rising, you're lucky those neighbours aren't charging you for the privilege of that "free" smoke you've been mooching.

      • +1

        What a bizarre reply.

        • -1

          You're under no obligation to address any of my points if it exasperates you.

          And look at that — you could not.

  • I see a bit of a cultural clash here. Many Chinese are chain smokers aren't they? And they are the buyers of many of the off-the-plan apartments in Sydney and Melbourne.

    • +2

      Sure the Chinese increased the smokers population, but this issue had been here for decades. As soon as people were smart enough that smoking kills. I doubt it's a cultural clash.

    • I suspect more of those apartments are investment properties than primary dwellings (anedoctal).

  • +1

    Whilst your auntie does have a option to smoke it does not make her entitled to it. What I mean by this is that she has every right to smoke but at the same time the other owners have the very same right to have clean air. I respect all lifestyle choices but she also need to respect other people's lifestyle choices (in their case to not smoke). You need to consider maybe this person(s) who choose not to smoke may have medical conditions like asthma which actually harms them through passive smoking. Alternatively he/she may have kids and don't want them to receive passive smoke.

    It could be a better option to smoke outdoors (not just balcony) but near the street or nearby park. That way not only does she gets exercise by walking there but also reduce the amount of smoking as it may be a bit of a hassle each time. Best of luck with your resolution.

  • -1

    No one should have to die because of someone else's bad life choices.

    It's currently not illegal to smoke in residential areas, but there's a few things that people experiencing secondhand smoke can do: (This info is for Vic residents)

    For people who are experiencing smokedrift from a neighbour who shares the same landlord there may be avenues under the Residential Tenancies Act 1997 (Vic). This Act requires landlords to provide tenants with ‘quiet enjoyment’ (section 67). This duty might extend to requiring landlords to prevent one tenant causing a nuisance to another tenant.

    People can also notify their council that they are experiencing a nuisance that is dangerous to health, explaining that secondhand smoke exposure is a known health hazard and that there is no safe level of exposure. Local Councils have a duty to investigate notices of a nuisance under the Public Health and Wellbeing Act 2008 (Vic) (section 62).

    http://www.quit.org.au/downloads/resource/facts-evidence/sec…

  • Whilst we are on the topic of air pollution (which in itself is rather subjective), keen to understand people's thoughts on pungent smelling food cooked in high density living area? For those who started referring to people's rights etc, I'm also keen to understand your opinion on what is fair vs unfair under these circumstances when compared to smoking. Let start the debate 😀

    • Pungent smelling food is going a bit overboard with air pollution. It doesn't significantly affect anyone's health by smelling it right? Although BBQ smoke can have an effect on people with breathing problems but it's nowhere near as bad as cigarette smoke!

      I don't see the problem with people cooking pungent foods…

  • +2

    Yeah they should approach your aunt—-as it is supposed to be in all cases.

    I approached my neighbour after he was smoking a triple at midnight which smoked and woke me up. I was extremely upset and appalled by his behaviour, filling in my mind with all sorts of presumptions of him. When I approached nicely then, he was very quick to apologise and agreed to walk out of the building to smoke—not in balcony and smoke towards the peaceful backyard.

    Smoking kills, lack of communication also kills

  • +1

    Whilst i do agree that people should be able to smoke on their own balconies as a matter of principle, it can impact on neighbours - here's my experience:

    In my unit we routinely have our balcony door open for air flow (we do not have air con) and the lovely breeze also blows in the smoke drifting from one of our neighbour's balconies. It permeates through half our unit unless we close the door. This is very frustrating for us

  • Not in here but in other country, the management ask to suggest smoke at outside of the apartment / unit in designated area since the smoke from cigarette goes to other one's balcony if someone smokes from there. They didn't care about smoking inside the house but only concern with the others getting harm.

    It was a serious concern especially the household with children and so far it seems working.

    If someone owns that place and smoke inside their property without passing that bad smoke to other premises, I would say why not.

    I think OP's idea with air purifier sounds great as long as law / strata allows OP's aunt smoke inside her premises.

    Funny thing is that there are some smokers whom don't like the smoke comes from cigarette and try to avoid it as much as possible. This is really nonsense for me as non-smoker and I hope your aunt is not one of them.

  • +5

    We've been on the other side of this argument for the last few years in Brissy. We rented in St Lucia in a small 5 unit complex. Two lots of neighbours below us were chain smokers and as others have said, it was like living in a jail cell. Both parties had stints of unemployment so being home all day/ night, the smoke surrounded us 24/7. During these years I also fell pregnant and had a baby. All of the health professionals told us that babies must no be anywhere near smoke. :( I was so worried about my beautiful baby. Our neighbours were aware of this and despite us asking them nicely to stop smoking on their balcony below us, they didn't give a $&@:. It got me so worried - no one actually knows the effects of 2nd hand smoke on people, let alone newborns. I would have all windows and doors closed but bubba would sneeze still. Hubby and I sought legal advise and were told that our neighbours couldn't impinge on our 'quiet enjoyment' of the property or release toxic fumes in or around their unit. Written and verbal comms about the issue to LJ Hooker resulted in didelysquat. We were lucky enough to save enough for a house deposit (thx in part to my OZB practices) and moved. We're now deleriously happy… But my heart goes out to those living with unwanted smoke. We found that unless your body Corp has ruled against it, there's not much that can be done.

  • Learn some letter writing skills from this guy :) http://richwiskendrinks.blogspot.com.au/

  • There is nothing stopping her smoking in her own house.

    However if the smoke travels into someone else's then they have every right to take legal action to prevent it from entering their property.

    There are no specific smoking laws, but trespass and private nuisance may be used to prevent her from doing it.

  • Smoking is a disgusting habit that impacts others in near proximity.

    Tell your aunt to take up knitting.

  • -4

    If I lived next door to your Aunty. I'd make her life hell. I'd start by throwing my jenkem bottles at her and her abode. Not the smartest or the safest but hey I can huff jenkem on my balcony! Civil rights constitutional fifth amendment your Honor! And I'll keep a hammer by the door if an angry nephew tried to front and I have to spark him out….

    …and that's why people choose to do anonymous letters, lest they love painting a target on their back

  • +1

    Found these http://www.breathepureair.com/commercial-smoke-eaters.html Theyre called smoke eaters and they remove smoke from the air. Could be an option. The sites US tho and a quick search didnt find anything in Oz.

  • +3

    Pertinent article on this very issue in todays newspaper http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/victorian-government-float…

    • Interesting article, thanks for posting. Personally think its only a matter of time until something gets done about residential smoking.

  • +1

    Is your aunty prepared to do anything to reduce the amount of smoke? that would be my suggestion.

    ie - cut down the amount she smokes in her place and go for a walk around the block.
    get some device like Lucky13 said above?

    While I agree her its right to smoke in her place, if she can show that she has done some things to avoid it annoying other tenants, then maybe they will get off her case.

    At the end of the day everyone has to get on with each other and live there, so compromises on both sides need to occur.
    If she was able to do somethings, and communicate this to all tenants, then you might find they are accepting of this.

  • +4
    • I also like how there is less coddling of the "hypersensitive" non-smokers in there. Lol.

  • +4

    I'm in the same situation, new neighbors moved in, I could smell cigarette in the mornings and evenings, checked everything on my side, windows, walls, even pulled out kitchen cupboards to make sure there was no cracks… I went to see the neighbors and innocently asked if they could smell cigarette on their side they said, no, and that they were non smokers (which was a lie because I saw them smoking outside)

    But anyway after we had that chat, it stopped :)

    It's a very annoying situation, you don't want to be that (profanity) neighbor complaining, but it's no fun to wake up and have breakfast smelling second-hand tobacco

  • Interesting article in The Age this morning

    Victorian Government floats smoking rules for owners corporations:
    http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/victorian-government-float…

  • -1

    0 Rights for smokers!!! if you wanna kill yourself go and do it where it wont affect anyone else.

  • +1

    now if they can do something about those bus stops…….

  • +2

    I know this is un-related but it's just a side thought. Get her to try an e-cig. Don't ask her to get it herself. Buy it for her so there's no excuse for not trying. And convince her to try it by saying it's an 'upgrade' to smoking.
    It's worked for many people and if it works for her, then you're killing (or saving) 2 birds with 1 stone. She uses a healthier alternative to smoking, and there's no smoke or smell to irritate that @sshole. This situation can be a WIN-WIN. Go for the win!

    • I was reluctant to suggest this but as someone who hasnt smoked for 4 years+, vaping does work. By far the easiest "quit" method for me.

      Gf came home the other day and asked what i was baking. I was vaping apple pie. She was dissapointed that there was no fresh desert in the oven.

      Its probably the best thing she can do actually, it will stop the còmplaints, cost less, still get her nic fix without the hundreds of other chemicals so she will feel better. She will pay ZERO tobacco tax.

  • +1

    Get your aunt a vape starter kit…

    • I found the person needs to dive in and commit themself. Its not something that you can switch to without any research. Tobacconists often sell rubbish kits and for a heavy smoker it wont cut it. Battery wont last a day, tank wont last a day, crappy ejuice etc.

      Its similar to upgrading a car, if you buy them something with technology they often dont have an interest and just drive it like a basic car and think its so so. Old people are reknown for this as the tech jump is too much to fathom unless they have a vested or genuine interest.

      • you won the internet bro…high fivee

  • -3

    (From OP)

    my aunt has recently moved into a new off-the-plan apartment.
    She owns the place outright.

    Now, when she had the contract checked by her solicitor, was she advised it was a "No Smoking" residential development?
    No, because there is no such thing if you're an owner-occupier. We don't (yet) have smoking precincts.

    So really, this is not a question of Auntie engaging in a legal activity, but one of disclosure of a non-existent Council by-law, or a Strata condition that most likely never existed at the time of settlement.

    why does one group of people deserve such vilification?

    Because sh!t runs downhill, ie smokers are a small minority, so let's hang em high!

  • Lol I like how he says 1.2-1.3x like that makes it suddenly ok.

    Smokers deserve to be shunned by society. But admittedly no one deserved to be shunned for what they do in the privacy of their own homes provided its not hurting anybody.

    That doesn't include on the balcony. We wouldn't allow toxic fumes or nuclear radiation to be directed at us because of someone else's habit.

    • It doesn't make it okay, I was just noting how corporations and other groups who aren't a minority get away with polluting our environment and don't get the same level of vilification (was just a contrast I was looking at, wasn't trying to justify smoking).

      • It's a direct effect on specific people who don't like it. If there are just that many people that hate it who are also affected by it then they will receive that level of criticism.

        There are petitions in some places where a maccas tries to open a new store where people hate on the unhealthiness. Probably less hate for many reasons though.

        Here's a couple reasons it gets more hate than other things that may be arguably just as bad.. this is my care-factor hit-list (what I can think of anyways):

        Immediateness/directness - pollution happens and some people really care about it but for many they don't see the full cause-and-effect at work and are much less worried. Humans tend to worry more when things affect them directly.

        Choice - Since there are more people deciding that they want to consume. The choice to opt in for eating fast food makes the person no different from how one smoker is to another, not gonna get many complaints. You can also opt out without having to inconvenience yourself.

        Influence - Just because someone else is eating maccas they aren't forcing all the chemicals and calories and whatnot down your throat. One could argue that it might make someone crave it but then again, that's choice.

        Benefit - people may justify the benefit from some acts/usages like drugs and medications to outweighs the cost of damage to health and whatnot (or are uninformed). It bothers you a little but the "greater benefit" makes it a tiny bit more worthwhile. A good example is the usage of fossil fuels, the benefit is large enough to overlook (until something just as beneficial but less damaging comes along)

        Someone else's smoke is an immediate bother that was not taken in by choice that is widely known to adversely influence health with little perceived benefit to oneself as a second-hand smoke inhaler. It ticks them all. Probably lots of care.
        Plus the level of difficulty to take them on as an individual rather than a corporation/concept makes it easier to take action.

  • The body corporate is really just trying to create a living environment to be as harmonious as possible. While the law today only applies to a body corporate common area (shared area) - in Victoria at least, there would be an element of the body corporate protecting themselves to some extent (we don't know what future actions will be legally feasible). We all need to live together, more-so in a building of condensed living, so I guess it comes down to the old adage/rule - do unto others …. Ask yourself this question; Would I be okay with someone poisoning my living environment with death causing toxins? The expected answer of a reasonable person (legally speaking) would be No.
    Consideration … it's not too big an ask is it?

  • My 2c:

    This has now devolved into the classic smoker vs non-smoker debate here.

    It's very similar to a vegetarian vs non-vegetarian debate, with both sides making some rather compelling arguments (but being rather parochial to the other's stance).

    However IMHO, as the place belongs to your Aunty, it is within her rights to smoke as often as she pleases. All the same, she is a member of a community, and goodwill is always important to have. Since there are non-smokers around, perhaps she can confine smoking to a specific area of the house with good ventilation and/exhaust? A good blower/fan would dissipate the smoke pretty fast and make sure there is minimal "bleeding" into the other apartments.

    Perhaps see if you could shift her over to ecigs. That way she can continue smoking without riling up the neighbouring non-smokers. I can give some recommendations on possible kit choices, PM me.

    Alternately, invest in an air purifier system:
    http://www.sleepsolutions.com.au/air-purifier

    This should be able to eliminate almost all of the smoke so she can smoke indoors.

    Unless she is a heavy smoker, if she's doing 5-6 cigs a day (and she takes care to make sure the smoke doesn't waft into someone's window), it is nothing more than a minor annoyance (at par with pungent food) and the neighbours need to accommodate her and work something out… AMICABLY.

    Personally, I find it rather concerning how smoking is becoming such a crazy hot-button topic, yet fails to address an alternative. The taxation on cigs is at an all time high and smoking areas around the city are shrinking rapidly. All this while, any attempts to make ecigs a proper alternative are being thwarted by the local polity. Rather than making it easier to cut over ecigs, they've made it exceedingly difficult to get nicotine ejuices (fine if you buy it from overseas, but SOL if would like to buy in Aus).

    Being a smoker is not a disease or a "condition" that needs to be completely eliminated (unless a person actually wants to quit). It is an unfortunate personal choice. For whatever reason, people may not want to quit… so the next best thing would be to counter the ill-effects (especially the ones impacting others), this is something no one seems to give a flying fk about.

    Full disclosure - I've quit smoking for almost a year now and have switched to vaping since.

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