Car Accident This Morning - Who's at Fault?

[Deactivated] on 10/02/2016 - 16:14

I was involved in a car accident this morning. I'm a little shaken up but okay.

The driver of the other car won't admit fault - I'm certain I was doing the right thing.

I approach the dreaded DFO roundabout from Australia Avenue in the left lane. It indicates you can go straight or turn right. My intention was to turn right on to Homebush bay Drive.

During this maneuver a car on the inside lane attempted to exit the roundabout at Underwood avenue and hit the side of my car.

The driver claims no fault and says I must pay. I tried calling the police to assist however they were busy.

What should my next step be? please see diagram here: http://postimg.org/image/l4ui8awt9/

Poll Options

  • 489
    The other driver was at fault
  • 12
    You were at fault
  • 2
    No one was at fault
Automotive

Comments

      • jovialjosie2002 on 11/02/2016 - 19:33

        Hi zozo, I thought the same at first…please look at the lane markings as you enter the roundabout… They are not kosher. The other driver would be in the right at ANY OTHER roundabout, but not this weird one.

    • [Deactivated] on 13/02/2016 - 09:54

      Hi, I'm not too sure, they have have come from the other entry. Wouldn't that mean they still have to give way to me though? How would i differentiate between a car that had entered from the either of the entry points?

      • factor on 13/02/2016 - 21:01

        If they were already in the roundabout turning right (in right hand lane) you shouldn't have entered in the left lane at that time - because doing so would block their opportunity to exit.

        Likewise travelling faster than the other traffic around the roundabout can cause that issue - removing the gap that would have allowed a right turner to exit.

        The law isn't so prescriptive about that - but it is the reason right turners can get out of a roundabout readily. People don't usually fill the left lane such that it would cause obstruction on exit.

        Think you said they came from Australia Ave though.

        • Shonky on 14/02/2016 - 09:48
          +1

          No that is wrong. You give way to traffic on the roundabout when entering but you do not need to give way ahead of time for them to leave the exit. Particularly if entering side by side at the same point like the OP how can you possibly see what they're doing.

          Regardless of who entered first or which way they were going the inside lane must give way always. End of story.

        • phluffed on 14/02/2016 - 10:35
          +1

          You would give way when entering from Australia Avenue to a car already in the roundabout, either lane, because they can continue straight. A car entering from Homebush Bay Drive (left) wanting to exit onto Underwood, should enter in the inside lane, merging to the outside lane at the apex of the roundabout, indicating a left exit onto Underwood.

          This roundabout isn't that hard to understand, I drive through many like this with dual and single lane entry/exits. I can't understand why other are debating it for so long! The outside lane can exit at Underwood or Homebush Bay, the inside lane can exit at Homebush Bay or Australia Avenue.

  • Squidmcsproggen on 11/02/2016 - 19:46

    why would the other driver admit fault???

    • drdolphin on 12/02/2016 - 10:55
      +1

      Because they are a decent human being who made a mistake and doesn't want to exacerbate the OPs pain by being a jerk? The law is clear in this case. The other driver is at fault, regardless of whether they admit it or not.

      • Squidmcsproggen on 27/02/2016 - 12:45

        never admit fault, opens a whole can of worms

  • kangaroo on 11/02/2016 - 20:21
    +1

    Clearly the other driver breached the direction of his/her lane. You are not at fault. Awesome diagram!

  • goraygo on 11/02/2016 - 20:35

    Call your 3rd party insurance company and tell them you need their help and they mostly do help. Since they charge the other guy the repair and admin costs anyway, they will be happy to help.

    Make sure you send them that nicely drawn up picture in the link.

    Let insurance company fight for you and it's a sure win.

  • Thenarrator on 11/02/2016 - 20:37

    easy. Next step: if you have comprehensive car insurance, call your insurance and they will get your car fixed. If you dont, write a letter of demand to the other person and say you demand your car to be fixed otherwise see you in court.

  • aXit on 11/02/2016 - 21:41
    +1

    This god damn roundabout. Only way for me to get to work, luckily don't have to approach it on the weekends. There was an accident there at ~7:20 this morning, different location to this I think. At least two guys from work have had a similar accident to yours, someone crossing from the inside lane into the side of them.

  • swiggity swag on 11/02/2016 - 21:58

    There is a flaw in the way in which the arrows are marked. Due to the right hand turn arrow on the left lane there are some situations where drivers in the right line may be cut off by drivers in the left lane.

  • Bypass on 11/02/2016 - 22:01

    It sucks when the other driver wont admit it, when their oviously at fault. About a year ago i got hit from behind on the motorway, when I slammed on the brakes to avoid hitting a car infront of me. The woman tailgatting me went straight into the back of my car. She said I stopped too quickly and blamed me. Fortunatly I won the case, but took around 2 months to resolve.

  • pooman on 11/02/2016 - 23:05

    Very similar situation happened to me in December. From the Homebush Bay Drive southbound exit turning right into Australia Ave from the left lane. Car on the inside lane attempted to go straight even though it is a right turn only lane. They hit my rear side. Thankfully they admitted fault and paid for the repairs. It is often hard to see the lane arrows when traffic is heavy but regardless, they were at fault as is true for your situation too.

  • No ONE on 12/02/2016 - 00:21

    Well, this got me confused now, first I thought op was not fault and then focusing more on diagram got me confused. If the car inside the round about can make an exit, the driver can never change lane or exit the roundabout. The other driver will be forever in the loop and cannot make an exit.

    The roundabout arrow must be wrong. Suppose the op wanted to make a u-turn, does it mean the other driver has to make a u-turn as well, if not then what should have the other driver done.

    Ps. I am revoking my vote, as it's the council /rms fault for misguided road arrow.

    Edit: oh right, the other driver had an arrow right sign which could mean not straight but can make a right turn

  • ausmark on 12/02/2016 - 00:48

    Like all of you except the OP, I wasn't there, but based on the explanation of the events and the road markings, I also believe that the other driver was at fault. While it may not be consistent with the rules of the road at many roundabouts, this roundabout had quite clear arrows on the road, along with lane markings to guide the traffic in the intended direction.

    I thought it'd be useful to discuss the right of way and give way concepts.

    While this comment was posted on the RAA web site, I do believe it's applicable Australia-wide (as the comment implies):

    http://www.raa.com.au/membership/read-samotor/2015/Winter/6-…

    Look at point 2, Forcing Your 'Right of Way'… Essentially, many road rules require you to give way, but this doesn't automatically give the other driver the right of way. On top of that, if a driver is required to give way to you but they don't, it doesn't give you the right to enforce any perceived right of way.

    Judging by the location of the damage to the OP's car, it looks as though the other driver must have been aware of OP's presence on the road. Even if the other driver thought the OP was required to give way, the other driver does not have the right to just plough on through.

  • highdealer on 12/02/2016 - 00:53
    +3

    My question is, why is there an ANZ ATM in the middle of the road?

  • leyton01 on 12/02/2016 - 01:01
    +2

    Wow that is spectacularly bad roundabout.

    In this case you are in the right because the other drive ignored a MUST TURN RIGHT arrow on the Australia Ave entry.

    BUT what makes this roundabout so bad is if someone enters on the inside lane on the Homebush Dr entry to turn right (as per their lane markings) they could hit someone coming from Australia Ave in the outside lane also turning right. Both drivers are following their respective turn signals on entry to the roundabout.

    What is MISSING is the dotted lines to force the inside lane of the Homebush Dr entry to move to the outside lane when turning right.
    fixed here: http://s15.postimg.org/ux1tl2izr/Untitled_12_12.jpg
    similar to how this roundabout is marked: http://s15.postimg.org/s1oqe7ezr/Image1.jpg

    Traffic must always give way to existing traffic on the round about and Australia Ave could not enter until the Homebush Dr has turned across in front of them into the outside lane. Problem solved for that scenario but it still won't stop people trying to exit straight ahead (the other driver) when they shouldn't from Australia Ave.

    • leyton01 on 12/02/2016 - 01:10
      +1

      So it turns out the lane markings are INCORRECT on that roundabout as per the RTA (NSW) own hand book:

      http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/business-industry/partners-supplie…

      Page 11-5.

      It is missing the markings to force traffic to the outside lane (my comment above) and it is also missing (this is particular to your case) the second "must turn right" arrow on the actual roundabout which tells the other driver in the inside lane they have to turn right.

      Goes to show YOU are in the right but the road markings are poor. Still they should know the road rules and that is no excuse.

      IMAGES BELOW THAT ARE NOT JUST THUMBNAIL SIZE - sorry for above image link error

      Missing markings on original:
      http://postimg.org/image/dcpo0r60j/

      Example roundabout with markings:
      http://postimg.org/image/jp4tal92r/

      picture of PDF page above with missing road markings circled:
      http://postimg.org/image/7bw5l5ou1/

    • nautic on 12/02/2016 - 10:47

      "BUT what makes this roundabout so bad is if someone enters on the inside lane on the Homebush Dr entry to turn right (as per their lane markings) they could hit someone coming from Australia Ave in the outside lane also turning right"

      Maybe that was the case for the red car?

      Since there is a centre line crossing its path (see http://postimg.org/image/m8bdbb6ef/), does that mean that the car entering on the inside lane on the Homebush Dr entry to turn right must give way (where that centre line is - since it is technically changing lanes by crossing that centre line) to the car coming from Australia Ave in the outside lane also turning right? If so that may be a disaster waiting to happen!

  • aft on 12/02/2016 - 06:32
    +1

    His fault. He should have turned right (or made a U-turn)

  • nautic on 12/02/2016 - 08:10
    -3

    I'm not sure about the rules in NSW, but according to South Australian Road Rules, if you are in the left lane you can only turn left or go straight. If you are in the right lane you can only turn right or go straight.

    http://mylicence.sa.gov.au/road-rules/the-drivers-handbook/r…

    However in your diagram, the red car seemed to be crossing over into the black car's lane. I'm not sure why there is even a centre line (seperating the two lanes) at that point in the roundabout where the red car needs to cross over in order to go straight and exit the roundabout - Very confusing. Perhaps an error in the road's marking? You might have a case since that centre line in theory prohibits the red car from going straight.

    http://postimg.org/image/m8bdbb6ef/

    EDIT - According to NSW Road Rules: "On approach you must be in the right lane unless otherwise marked on the road, and indicate a right turn."

    http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety-rules/road-rules/roun…

    • nautic on 12/02/2016 - 09:32

      My bad, the road markings clearly indicate that the red car can only turn right. While the black car(you) can either go straight or turn right. His fault and you're in the clear.

      Might also be a good idea to check if they have CCTV since it's a main roudabout that has probably had many incidents by the looks of things.

  • OzJD on 12/02/2016 - 11:06
    +2

    I am not a lawyer, but…

    I don't think the entry point is the most relevant, event though car B (not the OP) did the wrong thing by starting in the wrong lane on the roundabout, that did not cause the accident.
    What did cause the accident? Car B failing to give way (broken line means give way in NSW) as they exited the roundabout, so car B is still at fault.

    It reminds me of the old Reservoir Rd Exit (Westbound) on the M4 which now has traffic lights.
    Many times you would see a car go straight from the right lane on the above roundabout. If you survive that (when turning right), you then come up to another roundabout where people enter blindly at speed as they exit (Eastbound).

    Anyway, from here:

    • Call the Police Assistance Line on 131444 and report the accident.
    • Get two/three quotes for the repairs to your car. (You only need one, but a couple shows that you're not attempting to rip them off).
    • Try calling the other party (optional, but makes life easier), and discuss with them paying for the repairs. Allow a reasonable period of time for them to respond (eg. 7 days).
    • Send them a formal 'letter of demand' - Your insurer may send you a template if requested (or you can Google it, again, be sure to include a limited time for them to respond.
    • Proceed with legal action (small claims court)
  • hypie on 12/02/2016 - 11:09
    +2

    The other driver has absolutely no case… The arrows are pretty clear cut guys :p

  • The Value on 12/02/2016 - 11:10

    Everyone, especially ozbargainers, should have a dashcam!

    Just knowing that I have a camera recording makes driving so less stressful.

    • [Deactivated] on 13/02/2016 - 09:47

      I have one but always forget to charge it up :/

  • [Deactivated] on 12/02/2016 - 11:45

    Based on the diagram, you win. If there were no road markings, they win.
    I don't think you need to lose sleep over who will side with who.
    Whats the other drivers reason?

    • smpantsonfire on 12/02/2016 - 11:57
      -3

      You need to read the rulebook son!

      • [Deactivated] on 12/02/2016 - 17:55

        http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety-rules/road-rules/roun…
        Read going right.
        There were markings for this driver to they they were allowed to turn right at the left lane so….

        • smpantsonfire on 13/02/2016 - 01:09

          If there were no arrows, op still would be in the clear.

        • highdealer on 13/02/2016 - 09:48
          +1

          @smpantsonfire: No he would not, if there is no marking there would be no reason to turn right from the left lane.

        • smpantsonfire on 13/02/2016 - 14:13
          -1

          @highdealer:

          Would you like me to draw you the roundabout with the inside lane and outside lane clearly marked? because thats what it is.

          An inside lane, and an outside lane. If you want to change from the inside lane to the outside lane, you must indicate and give way and then move into it. Much like a straight road.

          The other guy changed into the outside lane when the OP was next to him. Would you do that on the freeway and say the OP was to blame? No.

        • highdealer on 13/02/2016 - 15:27
          +1

          @smpantsonfire: Read the rules again buddy.

          http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety-rules/road-rules/roun…

          Going right
          Slow down and prepare to give way as you approach the roundabout.
          On approach you must be in the right lane unless otherwise marked on the road, and indicate a right turn.
          You must give way to traffic already on the roundabout if there is any risk of a collision.
          Enter the roundabout when there is a safe gap in the traffic.
          Stay in the right lane.
          You must indicate a left turn just before your exit unless it is not practical to do so.

          Lane in a round-about is not the same as lane in a highway.

          It is much like and intersection with 2 lane. If you are turning right from the left lane in and hit a guy going straight from the right are you still gonna blame him?

          It is clear that the OP is right in this situation only because of the marking in the lane. I dont know about other states rules but this happen in NSW and it is common sense to be in the right lane when turning right when you are in NSW.

  • jc8 on 12/02/2016 - 13:36

    Yep normal road rules are that the left lane of a roundabout can either turn left or go straight. However the road markings are clearly in your favour so you will be fine.

    Incidentally, the road markings don't indicate you could have turned left (which you can), probably means they are wrong to begin with. However that broken line at the exit point shows that the right lane can only go right.

    • skinner on 12/02/2016 - 14:00
      +1

      You could turn left, however if you were going to do that you should have turned at the slip lane just before (very top of image).

    • BargainKen on 27/02/2016 - 14:41

      It used to be the one at Miranda till they turned it into a proper intersection.

  • susu abis on 12/02/2016 - 16:33
    +2

    2 lane Round-abouts in WA are marked where the left lane can turn left or go straight and the right light can go straight and turn right on the round-about. So if your in the left lane approaching the round-about but you want to turn right then you have to make your way onto the right lane.

    • sirplus on 13/02/2016 - 04:14
      -1

      He was going straight which is ok.

    • [Deactivated] on 13/02/2016 - 09:42

      Okay, but that wasn't the case with this roundabout as clearly marked by the arrows.

  • Kamsi on 13/02/2016 - 00:49

    nvm

  • Kevan2 on 13/02/2016 - 01:39

    Roundabout rules
    Entry - at 25 m before entry increase your speed by at least 10kph so you have right/left away.
    On roundabout - drive with at least one side of the car over the lane you need to be in to exit.
    To exit increase speed, turn wheel to where you are going, put indicator on.
    On exit raise right hand with middle finger extended swearing at all the halfwitted drivers.

  • sirplus on 13/02/2016 - 03:52
    -2

    Nothing's ever cut and dried.
    He could claim you cut him off.
    I try to always use the centre lane on except when I want to exit.
    Other car was in the turn right lane and was exiting left by changing lanes which was what I would have done.
    I probably wouldn't have hit you though.

    You wanted to turn right and were in the turn left lane.
    I'd say in wrong lane, it wouldn't have happened if you were in middle lane.
    Not always possible, just saying..

    Both cars were next to each other for a long time.
    Surely both were aware of each other.
    How could you manage to hit each other?
    Were you both texting or something?

    • [Deactivated] on 13/02/2016 - 09:40
      +1

      Okay but the car in the right lane would have to give way to me. I wanted to turn right and I was in the turn right lane, the marking indicated that I wasn't allowed to turn left.

  • martininmelb on 13/02/2016 - 07:57

    Usually an insurance company will advise you that in the event of an accident, you should never admit liability. If you do, it could even void your insurance claim. The best is to say "we'll let the insurance settle this".

    • [Deactivated] on 13/02/2016 - 09:37

      That's essentially what I told them.

  • beyondtool on 13/02/2016 - 11:10

    Were you clearly indicating right before he exited and hit you? If he disputes you indicated then it could muddy the waters legally. As in he was in the wrong lane but if you didn't indicate so you were also at fault.

    Those signs on the road are crud, I think I'd probably miss them. Is there a road sign as well as you approach the roundabout?

    • [Deactivated] on 13/02/2016 - 12:57

      I was indicating, no signs as you approach.

  • ozmoto on 13/02/2016 - 11:45
    -7

    Both at fault although the car hitting the other car is more at fault.
    Basically, if turning right (as you were) you should have been in the right lane - not left. Other car - left lane is for turning left or going straight ahead. He should have been in the left lane.
    See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCXtcXD17qU for NSW roundabout rules.

    • [Deactivated] on 13/02/2016 - 12:56
      +2

      Wow, it's people like you that cause these accidents! Read the line marking on the road… not every round about follows the same rules.

    • GameChanger on 13/02/2016 - 14:46

      You need to be reported to authorities so they can keep an eye on u.

  • DrC on 13/02/2016 - 15:32

    Heh heh "Homebush"

  • WaterMark on 13/02/2016 - 17:27

    Police only get involved if someone gets injured. Anyway not your fault.

  • wt860 on 13/02/2016 - 20:36

    Unfortunately your insurance company will do nothing because they only take care of the other third party(Not you). You must have installed a dashcam in your car if you only have third party insurance so you can definitely have the evidence of that driver at fault. Now what you can do is put the case to local court against the driver at fault

  • aerona on 14/02/2016 - 09:16

    If I was you, I would rock up close to the crash scene then walk there. If there is any debris where the crash scene. Take a photograph. That would make great evidence if he claims it was somewhere else.

  • feidao on 14/02/2016 - 19:43

    Badly designed roundabout and road markings, a normal 2-lane roundabout should look like this: http://www.mynrma.com.au/motoring-services/road-safety/safer…
    (under Multi-Lane roundabouts). Left lane should only turn left or straight, round lane straight or right. That way, no matter where you enter/exit the roundabout, there won't be anything like this happening and non of these changing lanes/give way etc arguments.

    • Shonky on 14/02/2016 - 20:40

      No that's not the case even if every entry was "standard". Two cars entering at two separate entrances but both going straight can have a conflict as an example. It's back to inside lane gives way again.

  • bryans on 14/02/2016 - 23:10

    I am very familiar with this roundabout approaching from Australia Ave. Almost collided with another vehicle who was on inside lane, that went straight ahead instead of turning right. Unfortunately some people don't notice the painted arrows (which were fading), and assume you can always go straight. I frequent the roundabout, so everytime I need to turn right, I stay on the inside as there's a risk using the outside lane. Sorry to hear about the car.

    • sirplus on 15/02/2016 - 08:22

      Yes, that I prefer the centre lane (regardless of arrows showing I can use left as well) is exactly my point above yet it was negged.

      You don't say if you were indicating right so I assume not; you needed to be indicating right when turning right.
      Also a driver changing lanes to exit needs to indicate left and give way to cars in the lane he's crossing.

      Either way, being aware of drivers enables collisions like this to be avoided. Couldn't you have touched your brake to avoid this collision?

      • bryans on 19/02/2016 - 16:54

        In my case I was indicating going right from outside lane. Saw no indication from car on inside lane, so assumed he would be going right as well.
        I did not have a collision, and it was avoided with me breaking and yelling profanities.

        • CVonC on 19/02/2016 - 21:27

          Saw no indication from car on inside lane, so assumed he would be going right as well.

          You mean indicate left to exit?

  • BargainKen on 27/02/2016 - 14:39

    I know this road also, as its on my way to work. Usually get a lot of foreign cabbies pulling that move since they think they got right of way. At fault driver never would admit fault (you're not suppose to). When I was at fault in a collision, I didnt admit, I simply told the insurance co. my story, they deemed me at fault and paid the excess to get the cars involved fixed. (Finally got to make a claim after 10+ years of no claim, the little ozbargainer in me got to jump for joy!)

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