Who is liable for this bill?

LHowza2 on 10/08/2015 - 14:43
Last edited 10/08/2015 - 20:01

Hi everyone

Myself and 3 other students just moved into a rental property at the start of this year in Cairns and have recently run into a situation regarding our gas supply. When we moved in the house had 2 external gas tanks that seemed reasonably full. We did not contact a Gas supplier let alone sign any contracts as we make only minimal use of the gas and were unlikely to use the gas before leaving next year.

One day without warning the gas supplier turned up when we were not home and filled the tanks up completely. After a few days an invoice was sent to the house billing $140 to one of the local Night Clubs in Cairns (stuffed into our letter box without an envelope). Confused we decided to ignore it as it indicated it was also sent electronically.

Recently we were contacted by our Real Estate to let us know that this Night Club was trying to make us pay them back for this invoice. We were forwarded the email train and apparently one of their employees lived at the house last year and did not cancel their gas contract before moving out. The night club has since contacted the Gas supplier and prevented this situation from reoccurring. The real estate gave the night club my personal email address and now the night club is emailing me asking for payment that 'is long overdue'.

I was hoping someone could let us know whether we are liable for this contact that was signed by an unknown employee of this night club last year which we don't know anything about? In addition it seems impossible to determine what proportion of this gas that we have used personally. We would obviously like to avoid paying this bill as we are all students.

Thank you for your advice

Cheers

EDIT: The nightclub has paid the gas supplier but is now trying to get the money back from us

Financial

Comments

  • the-mal on 10/08/2015 - 14:54
    -3

    Confused we decided to ignore it.

    Lesson learned. When someone is billing the house you're living in for something, chase it up! It could've all ended there.

    Recently we were contacted by our Real Estate to let us know that this Night Club was trying to make us pay them back for this invoice.

    Have you continued to use the gas? If so, you've used the service and it's probably in your best interest to pay otherwise the bill will likely be handed to debt collectors.

    If you haven't used the gas since it's refilled, then contact the gas supplier, let them know and start that conversation. But if you've started using it AND you ignored their original invoice…I think you've at least got some liability in this situation.

    Edit - Wait a second, is it the Gas company trying to get you to pay the bill or the Night club asking for reimbursement? If it's the Night Club then you don't have to pay. They also did the wrong thing by paying a bill that wasn't theirs to pay. But again, it might be less hassle just to pay if you're actually using the gas.

    • Howza2 on 10/08/2015 - 15:00

      Thanks for advice the-mal

      It is the Night Club trying to get us to pay the invoice for the contract that they entered into (via their employee) last year. Pretty sure they have already paid the gas supplier. We only have a small stove that uses gas and usually use an external BBQ anyway. Not the biggest deal if we have to pay but we are all students so would definitely prefer not to.

      Cheers

      • the-mal on 10/08/2015 - 15:04
        +4

        You don't have to pay the Night Club anything. It's their problem with the gas supplier. If I were you I'd make contact with the gas supplier and try to iron things out with them / explain the situation. I wouldn't deal with the Night Club trying to pass their silly mistake onto the 'little guy'.

        • Howza2 on 10/08/2015 - 15:07

          Thanks. Do you think that it would be best to reply to the emails from the nightclub and state that we are not willing to pay or just ignore it for now?

        • amkssg on 10/08/2015 - 15:34
          +2

          @Howza2: You don't have to pay it. The contract isn't even in your name. Look, the contract is between the gas company and the previous tenant, which makes the previous tenant, and not you, liable.

        • Settero on 10/08/2015 - 21:26

          @Howza2:
          do not ignore it…
          there are legal ramifications to ignoring mail/emails.
          just reply , that you are not willing to pay for their contract as the service was neither wanted or required.

        • mattyman on 11/08/2015 - 10:01
          -1

          @Settero: Actually I think the OP will be liable for the payment. When you move into a new property the onus is on the new tenant(s) to setup accounts with electricity/gas/water.

  • onlyletters on 10/08/2015 - 15:07
    +1

    So the gas supplier is harassing the night club because the previous tenant use to work there, my advice is do not pay anything, call the gas supply company and make sure they cut all services they have off with this address as there is a dispute in progress.

    The person who had this in their name should have transferred it into yours and advised you that the scheduled gas refill happens automatically.

    • Howza2 on 10/08/2015 - 15:11

      No the gas supplier has been paid by the nightclub (who then cancelled the ongoing contract). This issue is with the nightclub trying to get us to pay them back despite us having no involvement/knowledge of the contract

      • onlyletters on 10/08/2015 - 15:25
        -1

        Consider your gas was refilled. I would just pay them half and call it a day.

  • RandomNinja on 10/08/2015 - 15:07
    +2

    It's pretty tough to 'undo' the gas refill or to determine what proportion was used by you. Assuming you did use some of the gas, I think you might be best off trying to negotiate a mutually agreeable settlement - ie: split the bill? After all, it's not your fault they forgot to cancel the contract…

    • try2bhelpful on 10/08/2015 - 15:21
      +1

      First thing is to determine who asked the Gas company to come out and fill the tank. I wonder if this was done by the Night Club by mistake, i.e. they got an invoice which they decided to pay and then "wait a minute". So the first thing to do is find out from the Gas company who ordered the top up.

      From what I can see here you are under no legal obligation to pay back the Nightclub but, for future reference, you should contact all your utilities and get a reading prior to moving into a property so you know when you start.

      It might be best to talk to the Nightclub and pay back a fair portion of the bill. However, I think this is really between the Nightclub and the Gas Supplier as you appear to have been gifted the gas at this stage.

      • Howza2 on 10/08/2015 - 19:52

        Yes the gas company came to fulfil the existing contract between them and the nightclub. They then left an invoice addressed to this nightclub who then paid the bill. The nightclub is now trying to get us to pay for what seems their error. It doesn't seem like we need to pay but we might offer half to save the fuss

        Thanks for the advice haha will definitely try to sort out getting an initial reading in the future!

        Cheers

  • stargalaxy on 10/08/2015 - 15:13

    Night club may send some bouncers over if you don't pay them eventhough I think you should pay some if you have used the gas.

    • [Deactivated] on 10/08/2015 - 17:58

      If the night club sends ANYONE to your home, call the police and take out a protection order against them.

  • iratepirate on 10/08/2015 - 15:23
    +7

    Why did the real estate give them your email? - that's a breach of privacy.

    There is no way to tell how much the previous tennant has used. If you want to be nice ask the night club for the old gas bills and deduct the previous tennants average use from what they want you to pay. If you don't want to pay then don't - tell them to take you to small claims.

    • Howza2 on 10/08/2015 - 15:30

      Yeah I was wondering about that too. The real agent rang me and we discussed the situation and I said that I would talk with my fellow tenants about the situation. She then emailed me to 'follow up' on the conversation thanking me for agreeing to pay and CC'ing the Night Club thereby giving them my personal email address…

      • [Deactivated] on 10/08/2015 - 17:56
        +4

        Do not speak or interact with the night club at all.

        Push back on the real estate agent as they should not have disclosed your personal information to an unknown third party.

        If they want you to pay the gas bill as they to produce the contract or otherwise in which they offered or you requested their service or product.
        If they cant, tough luck. Their mistake, they need to wear the cost regardless of who used the gas.

        Most importantly reply to the email (leave out the night club) and point blank say that you did NOT agree to pay anything to anyone.

  • twadds on 10/08/2015 - 16:34

    Do you have a copy of the invoice? I assume that of the $140 some portion was a call out fee and some portion was for the gas. You could maybe offer to pay for the gas portion but even then unless they can show that the gas tank was full when you moved in you shouldn't even have to pay that.

  • [Deactivated] on 10/08/2015 - 18:52
    +6

    1) Complain to the real estate about breack of privacy.
    Take it to the privacy commissioner if you wish, or fair trading or whoever manages estae agents.

    2) do not pay the gas company.
    You have no contract with them - simple.
    They will not harass you - they do not have a contract with you.

    3) do not pay the night club - as above - You have no contract with them.
    Tell them if they continue to harass you you will report them to the police.

    Quite simply it is the nightclub's problem.
    They HAD a contract with the gas company that they forgot to cancel.

    BUT

    be aware, the gas company may take action to recover any gas - if this is possible - no idea.
    They know how much gas they put in.

    IF you want to do the right thing, you can offer to pay, part of the invoice.

    • [Deactivated] on 10/08/2015 - 19:54
      +3

      Gas company won't try to recover the gas because they've been paid for it.

    • Howza2 on 10/08/2015 - 20:04

      Thanks Bradn

      That is pretty tempting and legally I think you are correct - note that the invoice as already been paid in full to the gas company by the nightclub.

      However to try and avoid the fuss and get decent references to allow us to flat in the future we are considering offering to pay half and letting the disclosure of my email address slide. Though they have been pretty rude in their emails haha.

      Cheers for the advice!

      • jaybmate on 13/08/2015 - 22:58

        As well as everything already mentioned, since nightclubs normal course of business isn't debt collecting, you can be sure they'll eventually give up and not worry about pushing anything further, partially becuase they know they made the mistake, but also becuase they have better things to do, nightclubbing stuff etc.

  • Natt on 10/08/2015 - 19:13
    -4

    I think there is some moral obligation if you have been using the gas to pay for it. It would have taken a phone call to the estate agent to figure out what the deal was with the bottles. It was probably a conscious effort not to make that call, thinking hey if we find out it might cost$$, if we don't ask it's FREE!!

    And you purposely ignored a bill as well. Was it actually addressed to you btw? If not it should have been returned to sender etc.

    I am assuming when you say "tanks" you actually mean cylinders, something that is not permanently installed.

    If so the nightclub should be asking the gas company to pick up the cylinders and issue a partial refund (if any) as credit for the gas in the cylinders.

    And when they do a return they can weigh the bottles and figure out what you owe. If they were completely "full" they have a known weight, so they can deduct the current weight and that will tell you what you have used since the last fill.

    If you really wanted to, since you know the last fill date, then you can figure out how much you used in that time from when you "ignored" the bill and now. So you will have a pretty good idea how much you probably used since moving in to the last fill.

    The nightclub made a mistake by not cancelling the contract, they really should be chasing the employee. But I don't think you are"blameless". I certainly don't think it's fair asking you to pay for something you did not use. But conveniently "ignoring" something, is a cop-out.

    And yes, the real estate agent should not have given out your email address. It's up to you how big a deal you want to make that.

    • Howza2 on 10/08/2015 - 19:59
      +2

      Hi Natt

      Thank you for your thoughts. When I said tanks I was referring to two permanent fixtures attached to the side of the property, sorry for being unsure of the exact terminology.

      Regarding your comments questioning our moral complicity we had actually talked to a (different) gas company and agreed that we would get the tanks refilled when they were sufficiently low. We were obviously not aware of this independent contract between the gas company and the nightclub at the time. The real estate had told us that the gas left in the tanks was a bonus when we moved in. Regarding the bill we did not return it to sender as it was stuffed into our letter box by the company without an envelope and said it had been sent electronically as well.

      I don't think that we would be liable legally but might offer to make some payment to appease the nightclub and avoid further fuss.

      Cheers

      • Natt on 10/08/2015 - 21:09
        +2

        Howza

        I am glad you clarified, and I apologise. I made too many assumptions, and was wrong :(

        If the estate agent told you the gas was a bonus, then imho it is. So you are in the "right" there.

        And you did not authorise the refill, so it seems unfair for you to pay it. The nightclub should have cancelled the contract themselves. They are essentially asking for you to pay for their mistake then.

        Providing you think you will use the gas, then the "nice" thing to do would be a partial payment. After all you might have been able to negotiate a better price, or you might not have got them filled at all.

        Otherwise I would tell them no. They nightclub needs to recover the loss from the employee or eat it.

        Is there a student legal service (free) available where you study? The might be a neutral "negotiator".

        • Banana on 10/08/2015 - 21:51
          +1

          +1 this. Check if there is a student legal service at your university. I spoke to mine (at Monash) regarding a rental property and they were really nice.

          Also, I don't think you should pay for the gas at all. It's like, someone came to your house and watered your lawn for you, then tried to bill you their water bill. Is that considered as trespassing as well? Coming into your property with no prior notice?

  • bobwokeup on 10/08/2015 - 22:23
    +2

    Dont know if this has been answered but this happened to my previous tenants. The answer is simple the person who setup the gas account is responsible for closing the account. If they didn't close the gas account when they left then they are responsible for the final bill. Yes you should have setup a new account but that has got nothing to do with the fact that the night club needs to get the money from their ex-employee.
    Ps I would have thought that the real estate company would made sure the tanks are filled up by the leaving tenant so that you only pay for what you use.

  • windale on 11/08/2015 - 08:03
    -1

    Just pay your fair share. You admit you have used gas. Offer them a percentage and move on.

    • Deridas on 11/08/2015 - 11:02

      Just because you use the gas does not mean there is a legal or moral obligation to pay for it.

      It's the nightclub's mistake, and they have admitted it's their mistake by paying the bill. Now they're paying the costs to you, which is ridiculous.

      Tell the real estate agent you are in no obligation to pay for the gas, and if they disagree they can produce a signed contract that says otherwise (obviously they can't). Inform them you are also under no legal obligation to be in contact with the nightclub, and explain it's a beach of privacy they got their hands on your email, but you're happy to let that go. Just ignore the nightclub's emails.

      • windale on 12/08/2015 - 07:37

        legal maybe, I would look closely at the rental agreement though, but my morals would make me pay for what I use. Someone has to pay for that portion and they admitted using it. From what you say they could move into a house with a half full tank, use the lot and move out without ever paying for the gas? ozbargain maybe but not right.

        When I rented the previous tenant was responsible to fill the gas cylinders before they vacated and we were required to do the same when we left.

        • Deridas on 12/08/2015 - 11:25

          Windale, even morally OP doesn't need to pay the bill. Even though morally he may/should pay for the gas he uses, he would've got it refilled at his own expense at the end of his lease. OP did not ask the gas to be refilled at this time, and therefore cannot possibly be made liable to pay for the mistake of others. So if OP morally believes he should pay for the gas he uses, he now is forced to pay for two gas refills (one now, through mistake of another, and one at the end of his lease), which is not fair to anybody, let alone a student.

        • windale on 12/08/2015 - 14:59

          @Deridas:

          I never said pay for the lot I just said pay for what they estimate they used. They are obliged to pay for what they use regardless of who fills the tank.

        • Deridas on 12/08/2015 - 23:22

          @windale:

          Morally they're obliged to pay for what they use, but they should be paying at a time of their own choosing (eg end of tenancy), not hold to random at this very time by a nightclub due to their mistake. For all I know OP could find a cheaper gas refilling company, or at a later time when the gas refilling company offers a discount, which will reduce the amount they have to pay (that's the ozbargain spirit). You'd even think delaying paying for what they've used, putting it in a bank, and they'd be ahead on interest. Currently they're being harassed to pay for it due to somebody's mistake. Not to mention it probably costs more to pay for this refill, then another refill at their end of their tenancy due to call-out fixed costs.

          The ozbargain spirit would be - not legally or morally required to pay.

  • simmos on 11/08/2015 - 08:55
    +1

    When in doubt do nothing. Always works!

  • backpaqer on 11/08/2015 - 10:38

    Work out a daily supply/use rate and go pro-rata on that in consultation with the real estate agent.

  • meumax on 11/08/2015 - 10:48
    +1

    I wouldn't talk to the night club anymore. Their employee forgot to cancel the contract and the gas got refilled which they paid for.

    This would have occurred regardless of whether you were at the property or it was vacant. You are blameless. The night club will just have to cop it.

  • bigticket on 11/08/2015 - 12:34
    +1

    You need to check your rental contract first, as you need to abide by it.

    Usually the gas company does not "fill" the tanks in situ. Tanks are leased, are about 1.5m in height and are replaced with filled ones by the gas company. Two bottles are used so you have a continual supply, when on runs out you switch over to the next bottle and call the gas company will replace the empty with a full one and they then bill you.

    I surmise that most likely the gas bottle that was replaced was not empty since you did not call them as your gas appliances were operational. There is no way to tell how much gas you used since you don't know the capacity when you move in nor when it was replaced. You need to find out who called them as how would they know the bottle was empty? (unless its one of your room mates)

    Don't forget these bottles owned by the gas company and are leased on a yearly basis so there is a charge for the gas used and a charge for the use of the tanks.

  • Natt on 11/08/2015 - 16:03

    I was surprised about the "in-situ" filling as well.

    Howza does it look like this?
    https://www.originlpg.com.au/Images/UserUploadedImages/435/O…

    That's cylinders. They are removeable.

    Most suppliers try and keep domestic premises below 500 litres, which is when a lot of other legislative requirements can kick in

  • bobwokeup on 13/08/2015 - 18:53

    Any updates from the OP?

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