Tenant-Landlord Dispute: Who Pays for The Oven?

• 

  iridiumstem on 21/04/2015 - 11:56

  The builder (which has been attending the property for years) made a report to the landlord saying that the due to the tenants' lack of care in cleaning the excess oil.

  I think the landlord have a reason (whether it is valid or invalid doesn't matter) to believe that it's the tenants' fault since the builder reported to him like that. Unless you can prove that it's not due to your lack of caring, I think you'd have a hard time convincing the landlord to pay for it. Since I am not from Victoria, it might be different. If the damage is not simple wear and tear kind of damage but rather due to the tenants not taking care of the appliances, tenants, I think, have to pay for it.

  • 

    Charity on 22/04/2015 - 10:32

    so guilty until proven innocent?

    For OP, unless the builder is also a qualified electrician/electronics technician, his opinion isn't worth jack.

    It sounds like the builder is just a basic chimpanzee that will just unbolt the old oven and rebolt in the new one. (after trying to extort $1000.)

    At worst, you owe $200 tops (super-generous) for a second-hand eBay oven that you can literally find for $20.

    • 

      iridiumstem on 22/04/2015 - 11:35

      +2

      No, what I meant was, unless the OP can prove that he isn't responsible for that to the owner, owner has at least someone who've said "it was the tenant's fault", so he does have a basis for saying that the tenant has to pay (of course, OP can get a professional opinion from someone else to say that it wasn't the tenants' fault).

      Also, I am not sure about Victoria, but where I live, when it is done through the agent, tenants go in after checking the house condition (not sure whether the oven would fall under that, since it's difficult to check the condition of the oven, especially if it is like that). Also, it's up to the tenants to inform any faults in the house and has the responsibility to take care of the house (as in, don't do anything to make things worse/bad). If the damage is due to general wear and tear, it's the landlord who has to pay for it, but if it is because of the tenants not fulfilling the responsibility of taking care of the house/informing the landlord about the damage, it's the tenants who have to pay for it as far as I know. At least from what I've read because of what happened with my landlord at my territory. So at the least from the information on the post, it's not unfair for the landlord to go, tenants should pay (regardless of the builder's ability). The tenants at least has to come up with someone professional to refute that (Proving that it was not due to lack of caring of the tenants and that it was due to general faults in the oven or it was due to general wear and tear).

      I didn't neg you btw.

      • 

        Charity on 22/04/2015 - 14:46

        -5

        No probs. I think i got stalkers that neg me as soon as they see my name for some reason. :( (similar to jv)
        I even got negs for saying thank you, or hello :(

  • 

    zealmax on 23/04/2015 - 21:41

    +1

    Why would a "Builder" be inspecting ovens and short circuits? Shouldn't it be left to someone qualified for the job? How does "Oil" cause short circuit? Oil doesn't conduct electricity. I have seen PC mods where the PC is submerged in mineral oils.

    • 

      iridiumstem on 23/04/2015 - 22:01

      "Builder" was what the OP was calling him (well now he's refered to as a builder/electrician blah blah), I have no clue what his qualifications are and he might be a proper electrician as well.

      What I've said is based purely on what he said, the landlord had someone to look it over and the person said it's the tenants' fault. Therefore at least landlord has a ground on why he wants the tenants to pay for the oven.

      If the tenants want to refute it, he'd need someone else's opinion saying that it's not the tenants' fault.

• 

  CheapandUsed on 21/04/2015 - 11:57

  +14

  I think this sentence is probably what's really happening:
  "The builder (which has been attending the property for years) made a report to the landlord saying that the due to the tenants' lack of care in cleaning the excess oil, the oil damaged the oven."

  It may be worth your while to get an independent person to check this (maybe an oven specialist rather than a general builder) and if the finding is different, take the information to VCAT to ensure your case receives the correct outcome.

  • 

    meong on 21/04/2015 - 12:03

    This is what I'm going to do as well. I intentionally put the information contained in brackets because he was on the spot so insisting on making us pay for the oven.

• 

  pjetson on 21/04/2015 - 12:37

  +7

  Contact the Tenants Union of Victoria for advice http://www.tuv.org.au/

• 

  [Deactivated] on 21/04/2015 - 13:27

  +6

  Are you the first and only tenant in the property?
  Can they show that it wasn't the previous tenants that caused the damage and it just started to cause issues?

  My guess is that the answer to both those questions is a big fat NO!

  Good luck to them trying to get their hands on your bond.

  • 

    meong on 21/04/2015 - 13:44

    I actually asked the builder on the spot the same question since we only moved there in January 2014. The builder immediately said "Well, look at this oil… (uses the tip of his finger), it is still fresh isn't it?"

    Mind you, when we moved in, the oven was not brand new and the temperature markings were wiped off from years of usage…

    • 

      sparkles on 21/04/2015 - 13:51

      +10

      Sounds like landlord getting new oven at expense of tenant. If the oven wasn't brand new when you moved in how can they prove you caused the damage? Get an independent opinion, not the landlords builder "friend".

    • 

      Davros on 21/04/2015 - 13:55

      +2

      "I actually asked the builder on the spot the same question since we only moved there in January 2014."
      So you have been there over a year

      "The builder immediately said "Well, look at this oil… (uses the tip of his finger), it is still fresh isn't it?"

      Sounds cut and dried to me
      Fresh oil is not something that would be there from a previous tenant.
      It would be there from you and if excess oil is the cause of the failure I reckon you are up for the fix.

      • 

        meong on 21/04/2015 - 14:19

        Yeah, but I'm still wondering how the oil can even leak there.

        On a side note, we actually have another issue where there is a leak on the ceiling of ground floor below the first floor shower (which hasn't been fixed for ages). If we have water damage on the ground floor, should we be blamed for it or should there be a question of how the leak got to the ground floor in the first place?

      • 

        cypher67 on 21/04/2015 - 14:44

        +8

        @4iedemon:
        I agree, you should be able to shoot a firehose on top of an oven and it shouldnt leak from the top down into the inside. Wear and tear should allow for some fluid to land on the top and should stay there so you can wipe it away. If it has leaked down then you cant clean it. My bet is that its a faulty cook top, the hard part will be proving that. Plus given the natural properties of oil, the fact it was wet is mute; the oven gets hot which if used frequently would never allow the oil set. Sounds like the builder was the one that installed it and to shift the blame to avoid any risk of being out of pocket is blaming you. Defo fight it!

      • 

        bobwokeup on 21/04/2015 - 19:44

        Yeah I agree with Dravros if there was build up of oil that is lack of maintenance on your part. However I'm not expert but I am a landlord and I only go on what the maintenance reps tell me plus listening to the tenant of course. I would get a 2nd opinion from someone (usually a sparky) who fixes ovens.

      • 

        meong on 21/04/2015 - 20:32

        @cypher67:

        I'll ring up a couple of oven specialists tomorrow to see if they are willing to do a check for me for a reasonable fee.

    • 

      [Deactivated] on 21/04/2015 - 16:25

      +6

      "Well, look at this oil… it is still fresh isn't it?"

      Good question, is it really fresh?

      Is he some sort of expert on cooking oil? I don't think oil goes off like butter (or other foodstuffs) would. So it could very well be years old for what any of us know.
      I have some oil that are years past their best before dates and they still look fresh but I'm not jumping at the opportunity to use them.

      To clarify, is he a general builder/handyman or is he a qualified and certified appliance serviceman?

      • 

        meong on 21/04/2015 - 20:33

        This, I'm not sure, but he's been called for many things around the house so I will see if I can get a sparky/oven specialist.

      • 

        [Deactivated] on 22/04/2015 - 10:32

        Pour out some cooking oil "THIS is fresh isn't it?" Quite sure it will look and taste different from that junk on top of the oven.

    • 

      ESEMCE on 23/04/2015 - 08:21

      This will also be relevant.. try to find out the age of the oven.. if older than 7-8 years, it's been well and truly paid off (landlord depreciating the asset through tax) and past its reasonable lifespan.

  • 

    Mattycee on 22/04/2015 - 17:13

    +1

    I agree, the tenant usually wins when these go to the tribunal.
    My sister-in-law had a unit she was renting out and when the tenant slammed the door and cracked the glass the tribunal sided with the tenant and my sis-in-law had to foot the bill.
    Was a pretty cut and dried case they thought and still lost. Its just one of those things!

    • 

      [Deactivated] on 22/04/2015 - 17:56

      The burden of proof is on the plaintiff.
      It is difficult if not impossible to prove that any minor prior damage did not contribute to the current problem.

      It would need to be completely the current tenants fault for them to have to pay for it.

• 

  loulou1 on 21/04/2015 - 17:33

  +5

  I have to admit I am a little confused, but if there was oil dripping down prior to your occupancy of the property, would that not have been noted on your entry report (the one where you sign to say the condition of the property etc)? From what I understand they can't take the entire cost of the oven from you anyway. The appropriate tribunals or whatever generally take into consideration the age of the item when working out a compensation amount to give to the landlord. For example, if you ruined the carpet in a property that was twenty years old with a wild party, you would not fit the entire bill of replacing it with new carpet. Instead you would pay what the twenty year old u destroyed carpet would have been worth.

  • 

    meong on 21/04/2015 - 20:40

    +3

    I have just uploaded the photo: http://imgur.com/q6qsHUh

    If you can see, the said oil was above the oven and covered because the oven would have been tucked in the cutout under the stove top and we wouldn't have seen it when we first came to do the inspection. The builder had to unscrew the oven from the bracket so it can be pulled out to show the build up of oil.

    We have kept the stove top clean (there were some dirty oil from his tools there in the photo) but we admit there were the occasional times we had pots flowing over a bit when boiling something or making a stew etc but we always cleaned it afterwards.

    It is true that we shouldn't be paying for a brand new oven because it wasn't new when we moved in. VCAT will be able to provide advise on that, I suppose?

    I'm still waiting for their report before filing.

    • 

      loulou1 on 21/04/2015 - 20:54

      +2

      Yeah, really unsure on this. What could you possibly have done to prevent it? Seems like a design flaw. I would fight it and ask for a second opinion.

    • 

      [Deactivated] on 22/04/2015 - 07:00

      (profanity) off, that does not look fresh.

      Tell em to shove it.

    • 

      destruction on 22/04/2015 - 18:38

      -3

      That stove top looks grotty. Learn to clean.

• 

  mskeggs on 21/04/2015 - 17:54

  Well, if the oil is causing a short circuit, clean it.
  The oven will then work.
  If it still doesn't work, it obviously wasn't the oil.
  Why are both you and the builder assuming the oven needs replacement?

  • 

    inherentchoice on 21/04/2015 - 18:13

    +1

    Don't short circuits generally fry the circuit boards and components?

    If the expert could have just cleaned it then he would have. It probably needs replacement parts and would not be worth the money and effort to repair.

    • 

      meong on 21/04/2015 - 20:41

      Like inherentchoice said, the oil caused a short circuit and destroyed some core electronic parts which would be more expensive (parts+labour) to replace than buying a new oven.

      • 

        mskeggs on 22/04/2015 - 09:17

        +1

        Do you know this?
        I replaced the element in the fancy oven at my place and it is constructed so that the heating elements are on a different electrical circuit to the control circuits, which is sensible as the heating elements are obviously much higher power and would burn out any electronics if they were a shared circuit.

        I still suggest cleaning it thoroughly would be the first step.

      • 

        meong on 22/04/2015 - 09:28

        @mskeggs:

        This was based on the builder's analysis. Would it be safe for us to open the oven and check? I mean, it created a blue spark every time it's turned on so it would seem that the circuit was fried.

      • 

        mskeggs on 22/04/2015 - 11:27

        +1

        @4iedemon:
        Your electrical meter board will have a circuit breaker/fuse for the oven separate to the rest of the house.
        If it is off, no power can reach the oven.
        I would do a good clean, put everything back in its place and turn it on. If it still sparks, that will tell you if the issue is still present.

      • 

        meong on 22/04/2015 - 11:36

        @mskeggs:

        I actually tried plugging the oven to a wall socket that uses a different circuit breaker and it triggered the circuit breaker as well.

        What do you mean by cleaning though? Like open it up?

      • 

        mskeggs on 22/04/2015 - 11:55

        +1

        @4iedemon:
        Don't use another socket, the oven usually has a 15amp circuit, normal household ones are 10A, so it would likely trip the circuit breaker even if it was working.
        I would clean it everywhere I could.
        My oven has a back panel and top panel lid that lifts off with just a few screws so you can replace the elements.
        This makes it easy to clean, but also could allow oil/liquid through the cracks.
        I would get a roll of paper towel and kitchen spray and just clean it until it isn't greasy/dirty anymore, including inside the top panel if it is easily removed (while unplugged of course).

      • 

        Frost2468 on 22/04/2015 - 13:42

        @mskeggs: A 15A plug wont fit into a 10A socket :)

      • 

        mskeggs on 23/04/2015 - 07:34

        @Frost2468:
        Indeed, and my oven is hard wired to the wall. But who knows what has been wired up in some dodgy rental apartment.

      • 

        MoonSha on 24/04/2015 - 06:58

        @mskeggs: Yeah in my last rental the owner had cut off the 15amp plug and replaced it with a 10amp to use a normal wall socket.

• 

  [Deactivated] on 21/04/2015 - 22:23

  +5

  I cant comment whose fault it is, but when I was dragged through the courts, because tenants had stuffed a kitchen bench top by burning it with pots, the judgement was that since the kitchen top was 4 years old, it only had 6 years left of its 10 year life, so they tenants only had to pay for 60% of the repair (a new top).

  Could help you out, if you do end up having to pay you could only be on the hook for some of the replacement cost.

• 

  johnno07 on 21/04/2015 - 23:42

  +13

  To be fair, your stove does look pretty filthy.

  • 

    [Deactivated] on 22/04/2015 - 06:48

    +1

    ^this.

  • 

    meong on 22/04/2015 - 08:02

    In my defense, the burners had black oil sludge covering it which were already there when we moved in (had some photos of the inspection prior to moving in).

    The dirty black mess you see on the photo was because the builder used his screwdriver to try to scrub the black oil sludge covering the burners saying that we haven't been looking after it which we immediately defended against.

    I have already sent the photo to the agent to show that we already had the black sludge prior to moving in to proof that it wasn't due to our filthiness.

    • 

      hayewe on 22/04/2015 - 09:54

      +1

      If there was black oil sludge covering it when you moved in, why didn't you clean it before you started using the stove top yourself? I've moved into properties where things have been dirty (noted it, took photographs) and instead of just leaving it, went ahead and cleaned it, it seems pretty unhygienic not to do so.

      • 

        meong on 22/04/2015 - 09:56

        It was black hardened sludge. The builder had to make so much effort to chip a few of the sludge. I wonder if you can actually clean it without damaging it?

      • 

        hayewe on 22/04/2015 - 09:59

        @4iedemon: Oh sorry, I didn't realise it had hardened. I would have carefully attempted it but you're right, you need to be careful you don't damage it further.

• 

  Hirolol on 22/04/2015 - 00:13

  looks really dirty.
  i wonder how often you actually cleaned it, nobody will ever know.
  it is one thing to just clean the top but oil goes everywhere and would have dripped down the curve and under.
  that being said no way should you be liable for the full price of the oven.

  as others have said you should get another opinion, maybe someone that can open it to find out the cause.
  this landlords 'builder mate' sounds dodgy.

• 

  [Deactivated] on 22/04/2015 - 00:29

  +3

  Well you are not the first and only tenant? I mean it did not happen just during this lease? owner pays.

  • 

    [Deactivated] on 22/04/2015 - 07:02

    +3

    I don't know why someone negged this, completely right you are.

    • 

      [Deactivated] on 22/04/2015 - 09:33

      +9

      The owner negged me :)

• 

  [Deactivated] on 22/04/2015 - 06:46

  +1

  Photo of the said culprit shown here: http://imgur.com/q6qsHUh

  I thought it was the photo of the landlord… Never mind.

• 

  ltjet on 22/04/2015 - 08:03

  I'm a landlord but I never use friends to do repair work in case of disputes. The handyman/builder was most likely sent by the agent, as that's what they generally use for their repair/maintenance.

  How old is the oven? It looks fairly new so if its less than 2 years old you'll most likely be up for most of the costs.

  If the oven is older then they'll have a hard time getting you to pay for a huge amount of it due to wear and tear.

  If the over was put in close to you leasing the house you're paying the full amount.

  Getting someone out to check it will cost you money as a landlord is not obligated to get a second opinion, and so with vcat etc weigh the expenses up properly otherwise even if you are paying for 20% of the costs, once you add up all the other expenses including time you might have saved yourself $1-200 in the end.

  Just my 2c. Good luck.

  • 

    meong on 22/04/2015 - 08:06

    Oven was definitely older than 2 years old. The timer LCD display already stopped working when we moved in. The temperature markings were already wiped off from years of use. Stove top already covered with black oil sludge when we moved in.

    Builder said that the cost of putting in a new oven would be $800-$1000 labour, cost and disposal of old oven.

    • 

      [Deactivated] on 22/04/2015 - 09:22

      +2

      So it was malfunctioning before you moved in?

      Who's to say that what broke the timer didn't also kill the oven completely?

      Again, doesn't seem like the builder is a qualified appliance serviceman so his opinion is worthless.

      • 

        meong on 22/04/2015 - 09:30

        You can say it was malfunctioning but we didn't really use the timer hence since everything else worked, the oven was deemed fine for us when we moved in.

        My point was that judging by the wiped out temperature marking, the oven must have been there for a while.

      • 

        [Deactivated] on 22/04/2015 - 09:46

        @4iedemon:
        What I mean is that there was an existing fault and it could have very well caused or at the very least contributed to the current problem with the oven.

      • 

        meong on 22/04/2015 - 09:58

        @Drew22:

        Good point. But sadly, the issue with the timer wasn't picked up by us in the initial inspection. Heck, we didn't even know what the knob next to the LCD was used for as the LCD was garbled so we only tried the oven/grill/fan knob and temperature knob.

    • 

      WaterMark on 22/04/2015 - 13:05

      At that price you could get a base model Miele. Seems overpriced to me.

    • 

      WT on 22/04/2015 - 16:25

      if its the same size, it will just go straight in. 20 mins tops to undo and do the screws

    • 

      what on 23/04/2015 - 13:55

      Seems a little expensive.

      Disposal - old unit can be placed in your next hard rubbish.

• 

  l005e on 22/04/2015 - 09:38

  -1

  I would find a 2nd hand oven on gumtree and replace it yourself.

  Then the day you move out swap it back.

  Unlikely they will check to see if the oven works when they do a final inspection

• 

  TheBird on 22/04/2015 - 10:14

  First, I'd check that the guy that was sent was an electrician. There are very few builders who are also electricians. Since this is an electrical appliance, his opinion may be worth jack shit.

• 

  backpaqer on 22/04/2015 - 10:20

  Is the oven recessed into the cavity? or sits proud? The mess on top of the oven looks more like cleaning/water seeping in over a poorly mounted oven. Cooktop doesn't look too messy. As it is part of the fittings of the property (fixtures = what wouldn't fall down if the house was turned upside down) it should be covered by the landlord's building insurance…insurance may claim that it is simply wear and tear.

• 

  backpaqer on 22/04/2015 - 10:24

  Also…oven looks old…and cheap. Any CAPITAL replacement cost would not be borne by yourself unless it was proved to be a malicious act by you (hard to prove)…otherwise it's simple wear and tear. If you do have to replace it…you only have to replace like-for-like or repair, I wouldn't be stumping up for a brand new oven.

• 

  lplau on 22/04/2015 - 10:28

  If the oil is causing the oven to short circuit, isn't it as easy as just taking the circuit board, and cleaning the oil from it. Should be easy using WD-40 or a degreaser for electrical.

  Also you will need to check building codes and practices to see if sealing of the stove to the oven must be done. If it must be done, but it wasn't done, there is another argument for your cause.

  If this was old e.g. used by other tenants. VCAT actually may rule that you pay a portion of the use. e.g. if it is 4 yrs old, and you have only used it for 1 year, you may need to pay 1/4 of the new fittings.

  Remember if you go to court, VCAT or arbitration , it is usually not the clients who win, it is the lawyers who win. They drag it out as long as they can so they can earn more money off you.

• 

  [Deactivated] on 22/04/2015 - 12:28

  Did the builder discionnect the electrics? Ask to see his electrician's licence; otherwise report him the the Electrical Safety Regulator and Worksafe Victoria

• 

  KaTst3R on 22/04/2015 - 12:56

  That is a funky stove top design. I haven't come across a stove top with an angled edge and anyone with some form of logic will know that liquids aint gonna stay on the stove in a situation of an overflow (which is common if you do cooking). It is just really bad design and hopefully you can use that as part of an argument.

• 

  bigticket on 22/04/2015 - 13:44

  +2

  This 'builder guy' is a builder/handyman not an electrician, most likely. Lets call him the builder.
  From your description:

  "Well, look at this oil… (uses the tip of his finger), it is still fresh isn't it?"

  Whether it is fresh or not is irrelevant. The point is, if it is the oil, where did the oil come from where did it end up to cause the fault. To do a proper investigation the cook top needs to be taken out and inspected and likewise with the oven. Just bear in mind, oil has a very low conductivity and is unlikely the culprit. In case it is, oil will leave a track that, unlike water it does not dry out. Determining the oil or other contaminants origin and passage determines who is at fault, if at all, as its possible its purely a fault with the oven with some oil on top of it.

  Simply saying-

  'leaking down to the oven either through the burners and/or through the front of the oven, seeping down from the stove top'

  and by using the word 'either' the builder guy does not have a clue of what is happening. The builder guy is just speculating and this is not good enough to apportion blame.

  Oven tops are a dished design and the burners are raised within the dish so that the oven top can contain spillages and the bench top cutout should be sealed. Burners are usually held by screws and there is also an igniter. If these are not fixed properly or missing, leakage is possible.

  If they can not show you how you caused the fault, why should you be accountable?
  Get someone qualified to do a report, but notify the landlord/agent prior to doing so, stating that if its not your fault they will be footing the bill.

  • 

    [Deactivated] on 23/04/2015 - 00:11

    +1

    Solid reasoning. When my contractors give me the confident spiel and use words like probably/either/I don't know, that's exactly what I'm thinking - they don't know jack shit.

    If taken to VCAT, the builder's opinion is worthless.

    I'm not suggesting you play dirty, but clean the stove as best you can, call the agent to arrange for an electrician to locate the fault and the cause. If they cannot give you a straight answer, then you have a professional's opinion in your favor. If they come up with a different diagnosis and still puts the blame on you citing valid reasons, then perhaps it is your fault.

    People are lazy, maybe if you left some lube near the oven, he may diagnose it is excessive fornication of the oven. You need to cut back.

• 

  nosey on 22/04/2015 - 15:43

  +2

  As a landlord, I recently had an oven break. I made the mistake of asking for a repair quote first which cost me $120 for a guy to rock up and say "yeah we can order a part but it will cost $400". Australia is pretty much a throw away society now because things are too expensive to fix. I went to the Good Guys and got a Westinghouse oven (and new cook top whilst i was at it). The oven is modular and just pulls straight out and new one goes straight back in. It cost $500 with delivery and installation.

  If you were my tenant and had reported it being dirty and looking tired when you first signed the lease, I would replace it without argument. If it was less than two years old though, I would probably try and hold you accountable.

  As others have said, you need to weigh up the costs of arguing this.

• 

  Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 22/04/2015 - 16:19

  Generally all modern s/s cooktop hobs are sealed. My bet is it wasnt installed correctly. It should be screwed with clamps to the cooktop with a seal to avoid this exact issue.

  Can you move the cooktop around slightly on the bench or lift it out? If so thats the culprit and its your landlords issue as the oven is a fixture, their responsibility for correct installation.

• 

  AG_ACT on 22/04/2015 - 16:32

  I didn't think ovens were sealed… but I don't think that's going to be overly relevant in the circumstances.

  I think OP said he moved in January 2014, any evidence that he fault has been occurring before now? I'd say if someone qualified says that the fault is due to lack of care, and it hasn't occurred before now, the OP is going to have a to have a tough time proving it wasn't them…. Just from a general logic point of view I mean.

  • 

    lplau on 23/04/2015 - 09:09

    Maybe the OP should have checked if it worked.
    The OP can try to chase down the previous tenants and get their testimony on if the oven worked prior though. Which may or may not help their case.

    If the previous tenants say "Oh it was working" or "not really sure" then it doesn't help your case.

• 

  tohara on 22/04/2015 - 17:59

  Normally when i cook i put the oil in the sauce/frypan where it stays, small amounts that have been spat out wouldn't cause this. What have you been doing to get so much on the cooktop surface? Regardless of the leak if there wasn't oil on the cooktop there wouldn't be oil seeping down into the oven.

• 

  tonyjzx on 22/04/2015 - 21:28

  i think you kinda screwed yourself

  you shoulda cleaned the shit out of it and THEN argued your case… "hey man this over is clean as shit, but it doesnt fire up…"

• 

  horsome on 22/04/2015 - 22:58

  +1

  Builder and agent are in wrong - funny how they come up with same conclusion.

  The oven is old and faulty. I've lived in many places with the oldest ovens and guess what, they all worked.

  First make written request to replace oven to landlord. This also request that replacement is to come with assurance that tenant is not to bear cost whatsoever and if no assurance is made the issue will be raised with tribunal.

  See what happens, don't waste money on unneeded reports. Look up what authoritive action you can take and threaten them with it.

  They are just trying to put under pressure so you will cave and buy the landlord a brand new oven for them. It makes them look better than the competition, that is until tribunal awards rent reductions for unsatisfactory living conditions.

  • 

    lplau on 23/04/2015 - 09:05

    It doesn't matter who is in the wrong though. The law is so ambiguous which allows lawyers to argue their way around it, it is all about how you present the information.

    It is what the law says, so best to go consult somebody with the necessary qualification instead of their "Ozbargain" degree.

    Remember the person who you are fighting against usually has more money, lol.

    You should sit down with the agent/owner and discuss it with them. Reach a agreeable term, don't expect to come out of it scotch free. Maybe get them to show proof of how old the oven is, then a portion your usage time to the oven and pay that portion for a new oven e.g. 4 yr oven, you used 1 year, therefore pay 1/4 of the price of the new one.

    Once it goes to court REMEMBER everybody loses, courts in Australia aren't the same as overseas, if you lose you do not pay all the costs associated to the court, you have a fix price on it. Therefore you will still be paying out of your pocket most likely a few thousand.

    Arbitration is also a good way to go, it is usually done 1 step before going to court, it basically allows you and the other person to chat it through and see if there is a settlement which can be made.

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  Geewhizz on 23/04/2015 - 06:13

  the landlord sent a builder/electrician/handyman

  Quite clearly his mate. They can't blame you for that. Firstly they can't prove that you were responsible for it getting there, and secondly, the drip trays on the stove top SHOULD catch spills. It's not your fault if he installed a poorly designed stove top.

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  [Deactivated] on 23/04/2015 - 09:33

  You don't have to pay them anything if you are not at fault. If you can prove that it is the poor design of the kitchen, faulty and old oven then you are not fully liable for the oven replacement. I've had my agent rip me off quite a few times so from my experience this is almost like a standard industry tactic to throw the liability on the current tenant.

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  frostman on 23/04/2015 - 12:37

  The builder (which has been attending the property for years) made a report to the landlord

  What the hell does a builder of the townhouse have to do with the operational issues of internal appliances?
  Do you call the builder when your toilet is blocked by Turd, or your fridge stops working?

  Call the Real Estate agent, he/she is your Agent acting on behalf of the landlord. They need to send a qualified electrician to verify the claim
  In other circumstances where the landlord is a tight-ass, or over-values their home, or is obsessed with their home, the landlord himself will come out and assess the issue. In sounds like its a pre-existing issue which led to this, but you also have a duty of care to ensure you clean up shit that will likely cause problems.

  e.g I cant claim flood damage in my lounge room if I failed to clean the balcony drains because I was too lazy.

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  Ellie25686 on 23/04/2015 - 15:32

  Yes, cleaning/maintenance is the major issue. You should clean it every week.

  • 

    Geewhizz on 25/04/2015 - 07:33

    Are you saying that one should pull their wall oven out of the cabinet weekly to clean it?

    • 

      Davros on 27/04/2015 - 17:01

      Its a worry that you needed to ask this question but you perfectly demonstrate the mentality of some tenants.

      Obviously that is not what the poster is suggesting but the tenant should clean up oil as it spills and not let it pool enough that it can dribble down into the cabinet and electricals underneath.

      • 

        Geewhizz on 28/04/2015 - 05:51

        Obviously that is not what the poster is suggesting

        NO, it wasn't obvious, that's why I asked, given that it seems obvious to me that if one had a spill of any sort that they would clean it up straight away rather than let it pool, and that it's the matter sitting on top of the oven unit that we're discussing here.

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  TheWizardOfTheOZ on 23/04/2015 - 17:52

  Don't know in VIC, I did go to court in NSW against my landlord because my bond was taken away due to a crack on sink in toilet. There was a special tribunal in NSW called Consumer Trader & Tenancy Tribunal (CTTT)

  Here is a list of argument u can make in court:

  1. Design problem. Maybe it's the builder's fault that oil was accumulating under the cooktop cause it is not designed/installed properly.

  2. Demonstrate proper usage. If u can demonstrate that u did not use cooktop/oven improperly or damage oven on purpose, landlord should pay for repair since it is just normal ageing of equipment.

  3. Your lease tenure compare to the age of oven. u have been living for only a year but the oven maybe 10 yrs old. Some damage might have been caused by previous tenents. Why do u need to pay for their damage? (I actually won back my bond on this)

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  REDRUM on 23/04/2015 - 18:24

  Since when is cooking oil conductive anyway?… It could certainly gum up mechanisms, but cannot cause an electrical short. Maybe get an independent report from a Sparky in the know…

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  littleDealFish on 27/04/2015 - 16:52

  aww wow this reminds me of when i was renting with a terrible landlord. Almost certainly turned me off renting altogether.

  I would definitely get a second opinion because some landlords/people are just bullies and will try and see how much they can get out of you. That being said i don't know the full situation but a second opinion never hurts.

  Without going into it too much our landlord was a builder, and did horrible quick fixes (just stuck a metal plate over a glass window when someone tried to break in) and was just downright creepy (turning up unannounced, asking for keys, and collecting his mail as he never got it redelivered).

  That wasn't the worst of it, by the end of our lease, unbeknownst to us, a piece of fibro board about 5cm long was missing from the top of the house (and 4 metres above where anyone could even get to i might add). The owner proceeded to try and take our entire bond over it. After doing his own 'quote' to repair it of course. The real estate bent over backwards for him and basically delivered his terms. When it finally went to mediation he gave up, but not before he tried to intimidate us and weasel half the payment out of us.

  It was downright shameful as we are damn clean and took very good care of the place. Luckily our next rental was a really nice landlady, whose husband also happened to be a builder but a really great guy :)

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    Davros on 27/04/2015 - 16:57

    "I would definitely get a second opinion because some landlords/people are just bullies and will try and see how much they can get out of you."

    Same goes for tenants being scumbags using every excuse known to man to avoid their responsibilities as agreed to on the lease.
    There are several posts above showing tenants tendency to be deceitful.

    I am not suggesting the OP is.

    • 

      littleDealFish on 27/04/2015 - 17:09

      Oh of course - partly the reason i'm apprehensive to get my own place (as i'm sure i would eventually want to go travelling and then need to rent it out). Can't win either way, but it does suck when you sign a lease agreement and then have an asshole like that hounding you for the full 12 months. I guess it goes both ways though? are you able to kick out bad tenants?

      • 

        Davros on 27/04/2015 - 17:21

        "are you able to kick out bad tenants?"
        It can be hard at times

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  jimmej on 28/04/2015 - 15:43

  Was kitchen cleanliness ever noted in any inspections by the agent?

  My point is that if they can't notice it needed cleaning. How can you be expected to know.