HELP! Tenant demand compensation due to apartment's aircon not working

fatboyslim on 28/08/2014 - 12:56
Last edited 28/08/2014 - 12:56

a long story cut short, it is a newly completed apartment for approx. a year and everything is still under warranty. Tenant's apartment's air con (which is part of the building as the entire building has the same system) not working for a few weeks and we've only been told only very recently (few days). We have since contacted the building strata/maintainance people as it is under warranty - and it has taken them a few weeks to fix that problem - entirely out of my control. Tenant then demand financial compensation because of that. BTW, this apartment is near CBD Sydney and it is not in a "cold climate area" of Australia.

What should I do? is the land lord liable for compensation in this case? BTW, we don't have landlord insurance. Would appreciate any official/unofficial advices. thanks!

Home & Garden

Comments

      • Davros on 29/08/2014 - 15:44
        +1

        They're just a bunch of whinging tenants themselves wrapped up in their own self importance.
        Thing is, no one else cares.

        • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 29/08/2014 - 16:34
          +1

          No, really its been a bunch of whinging landlords (or aspiring landlords).

          "its not warm"
          "its not cold"
          "act of god"
          "give'm a gift card"
          "give them a fan heater"
          "jack up their rent"
          "evict them"

          Simply because a tenant reported a faulty air con?

          Heavens what a horrible tenant.

        • Davros on 29/08/2014 - 16:58

          @zeggie:
          And yet here you are, whinging.

        • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 29/08/2014 - 17:47
          +2

          @Davros: I apologize on behalf of real estate advocacy and tribunals everywhere that a forum topic had to inform you that tenants have rights and landlords sometimes have to spend money on their investment.

  • howsthat on 29/08/2014 - 12:15
    +2

    op said: 'BTW, we don't have landlord insurance.'

    IMHO when owning an investment property, one should always have landlord insurance. I hate to think what could happen if something terrible happens and you do not have the right insurance.

    • JimmyF on 29/08/2014 - 12:19

      yeah you could have a tenant that gets really pissed off cause the AC didn't work for over a month or more (He doesn't say its fixed YET…) and then trash the crap out of the place when leaving :)

    • bargaino on 29/08/2014 - 12:29

      I hate to think what could happen if something terrible happens and you do not have the right insurance.

      Landlord insurance excludes the more likely terrible things, e.g. malicious damage by tenants. In reality, it is not much better than regular home insurance.

      • howsthat on 29/08/2014 - 12:49
        +1

        Sold our rental property a few years ago, best thing we ever did. The Landlord Insurance we had covered building n contents, loss of rent, malicious damage etc.

  • JimmyF on 29/08/2014 - 12:18
    +1

    Just cause you might not use the AC this time of the year, doesn't mean people don't. Also remember AC isn't air cooling, its Air conditioning. This can mean HEATING and COOLING. Your office building has the AC on right now. Would it be fair if this wasn't working for 4 weeks??

    I stayed in an apartment once that was on the upper levels…. The place was so HOT that the AC had to be ran even though it was nice outside. The place had tiny windows that only opened a few cms so you couldn't use the line of opening windows to cool the place down.

    Ever thought these people are living in a humid box of hell that NEEDS the AC running to vent fresh air extra?

    The owner should kick in a small token discount on the rent, say $20-30 for 4 weeks on the rent to make up for it.

    Think of it this way, if you booked a motel room when on holidays for 2 weeks and the AC died at the start of week 2, would you want to be moved to a room that had a working AC or ask for a refund? :)

    • Davros on 29/08/2014 - 15:45
      -2

      "Also remember AC isn't air cooling, its Air conditioning. This can mean HEATING and COOLING. "

      Plenty of Air Conditioners are cool only

      • JimmyF on 29/08/2014 - 16:27

        AC is slang for Air conditioning and Air conditioning is a defined as a product that conditions the air, primarily temperature and humidity control. So this can be via heating or cooling the air.

        Yes some AC units are 'cool only' models, but stop being a dork. You know very well that if its a building AC unit as he talked about here, that it will be a cooling/heating model.

      • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 29/08/2014 - 16:32
        +1

        Why even post that Davros? The OP has already confirmed it is a heating and cooling unit that is broken.

        • Davros on 29/08/2014 - 17:02
          -3

          Thats great, I didn't read all of the whine, far more important things to do on a Friday arvo

        • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 29/08/2014 - 17:46

          @Davros: You are whinging about someone supposedly whinging about a whine you haven't even read all of. Wow.

  • bargaino on 29/08/2014 - 12:27
    -4

    Looking at the BOM site, Sydney weather has been very mild. Given this is a new apartment, can we assume it is well insulated?
    Landlord should give them a 10A fan heater, and $1/day toward power bills, until the central heating is fixed.
    It'd be more serious in summer, when Sydney gets horribly muggy.

    http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/dwo/IDCJDW2124.latest.shtml
    You think that is cold?!

    • Lysander on 29/08/2014 - 12:42
      +4

      So, the landlord gets to determine whether tenants are allowed to feel cold and want a heater? Hmm, did not know landlords had that kind of power and authority.
      So, you are OK with another person telling you that you are not cold when you in fact do feel cold?
      If the landlord is from Russia and is used to minus 20 he could then decide that no tenant ever needs a heater because it never ever gets cold in Australia (as compared to minus 20)?
      I am guessing you are/would like to be the landlord?

      • bargaino on 29/08/2014 - 12:45

        Russians are often accustomed to central heating, so whine if they have to wear long sleeves indoors.
        Australians are a bit tougher :)
        Anyway, try reading! I didn't say to put up with it. I said that a modern apartment in mild weather is easy to heat, and a fan heater should work in the interim.

        OTOH, if Sydney has shoddy building standards, maybe not?

        • edgar28 on 29/08/2014 - 12:53

          You can't compare with Russian, My Russian lecturer said there are only two types of female in Russia - Pretty and Very Pretty.

          Australia? can't comment, there is a lawyer here

    • one man clan on 29/08/2014 - 13:27

      Mean min temperature of 9.5 degrees is pretty cold, yeah.

    • Mon Gol on 29/08/2014 - 16:06
      +1

      I am from country where it is to -30 in winter, and with all the responsibility must say that IT IS COLD IN AUSTRALIA IN WINTER. Due to high humidity. I have never thought we are going to feel cold here)) and yes, we have aircon on in winter time (warming up the air).. the way houses/apartments are built here - is subject to a different topic. it is annoying when you try to warm the house up a bit, once you are happy with temperature, turn aircon off and house is cold in 5 minutes!

  • FW190 on 29/08/2014 - 12:29
    +1

    threads like makes me glad I saved up and brought my own place

    and also glad that some lawyers would still stand up for what is right, rather then $$$$, double thumbs up to you Lysander :)

    • Lysander on 29/08/2014 - 12:44

      Thank you. Glad to see some people still appreciate voluntary work for the benefit of the poor and hence disadvantaged in the community.

  • fatboyslim on 29/08/2014 - 12:55
    +7

    We'll now wait and see what his response is to the 1 week's of free rent. My intention is to solve this with minimal hassal and monetary loss. Just because he asked for 2 weeks compensation doesn't mean I won't have my say. Nothing needs to go to court or tribunal. If he's happy with 1 week, then I'm happy too. Life then goes on with 2 happy parties.

    • one man clan on 29/08/2014 - 13:25
      +1

      This is the right approach. Avoid court, try to resolve it informally with an offer. Tribunals will tell you to do this anyway.

    • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 29/08/2014 - 16:23

      I'm really happy to read this follow up post. Great attitude. Got to give you a thumbs up there.

    • MITM on 30/08/2014 - 11:38

      Then get your MA to compensate you by waiving the next 1 or 2 let fees, depending on the outcome.
      Not necessarily this IP.
      After that, dump your MA for one less tardy. Competition is fierce.
      Chances are your tenant will move on after this episode.

    • bigticket on 30/08/2014 - 13:22
      -2

      I know it and most people know it, it's a purely and opportunistic attempt by the tenant to 'get some free rent'. It seems unclear to me in this post the actual time frame the tenant reported the problem to the landlord/agent, i.e. the number of weeks for the landlord to effect repair.
      One week for repairs is reasonable time. So if the repairs took 2 weeks the tenant is out 1 week. Repairs take 3 weeks the tenant is out 2 weeks and so on.
      I think that 10-15% off the rent (time to effect repairs minus 1 week) is reasonable.
      Three weeks -> 2 days. Offering one week is very generous on your part.
      And don't forget how unbearable it must have been for the tenant, taking a whole 2 weeks to report the problem.

      • Lysander on 30/08/2014 - 13:40
        +1

        You did not read the whole thread. Unless the info changed again I believe we are talking 9 weeks and counting now. Also, the tenant did report it to the building manager, and the agent, and those guys did not inform the landlord until much later.
        Wanna reconsider your statement?

        • bigticket on 01/09/2014 - 13:14

          From what the OP stated and the bits and drabs of info scattered throughout this thread it was unclear to me the exact course and time frame of events and that is why I have outlined my advise on the various scenarios above, and my statement of "~10%" of 9 weeks is about 1 week, which the OP has offered the tenant anyway. So no, I see no reason to reconsider my statement.
          Also, the managing agents delay in notifying the OP is important and the agent should bear pro rata costs in compensation.
          Notification to the building manager means diddly squat.

        • Lysander on 01/09/2014 - 14:29
          +1

          @bigticket:

          "Notification to the building manager means diddly squat" - because you say so?

          On whose behalf does the BM act? Who is paying him? There is your answer. I agree that BM and REA should have notified the landlord but that is an issue between BM, REA, and landlord. The landlord still has to pay comensation to the tenant and then the landlord can get the compesnation they paid back from negligent BM and REA.
          I know it would be easier to deal directly with the people ultimately responsible but that is not how the law works unfortunately.

        • bigticket on 01/09/2014 - 16:31
          +3

          @Lysander:
          "On whose behalf does the BM act? Who is paying him? There is your answer."
          Your right, who is paying him? Not the tenant. The onus is on the tenant to report to the problem to the agent or OP (and not the BM), that is, the people providing him the rental.

        • one man clan on 01/09/2014 - 16:56

          @bigticket: I personally think it's far more complicated than that & could involve an agency relationship but I'm no expert in the area so I'm not going to way in. I'd be inclined to think though that informing the building manager is equivalent to informing the landlord (as is informing the agent).

  • [Deactivated] on 29/08/2014 - 13:02

    NM.

  • daveozsydney on 29/08/2014 - 14:04
    -2

    Lots of comments and opinions there.

    I think the tenants may be trying it on. You don't ask and you don't get. I would try and move the debate about compensation away from monetary value i.e. away from whole weeks worth of rent reduction. Perhaps something with value in kind like a $150 restaurant or JB Hifi voucher or a case of wine to apologise - legally the offer would be made "without prejudice".

    They still had use of the unit, just without heating. The tenants could have bought a heater and billed you for it which would have been reasonable and usually it's in a contract that small value repairs can be carried out by the tenant and get a receipt. Did they attempt to get a quote to have it fixed?

    A landlord is responsible for fixing any equipment that is fixed in the apartment when it is rented out, but they have to be reasonable about how long it takes to fix something. If the delay was from your agent not informing you then I would check with them. That's why you pay an agency for the professional advice and to handle things when they go wrong and know when to increase the rent and re-sign up a new contract each year. If you are doing it yourself, you've saved some money but are paying the price so mayeb bite the bullet, pay some compensation and count the money you have saved by not using an agent.

    • JimmyF on 29/08/2014 - 14:18
      +6

      Tenants trying it on? Seems the landlord might be as well. I mean he has come here asking for help on how to get out of this!

      Read the thread and the landlords update on this issue. Its been 9 weeks and counting (the AC isn't fixed yet!). The Tenant was trying to get it fixed with the building people as its the building supplied AC that is broken. Then with the agents who did nothing, now its been passed to the landlord as the tenant asked the agent for compo, and like a good agent they just handballed it! You can't ask the tenant to get a 'quote' on fixing the building AC and as the landlord has said, its meant to be fixed under warranty, they are just dragging their heels at getting it fixed.

      You are correct, the landlord is responsible for fixing any equipment in a timely manner….. 9 weeks is well over a timely manner. Basically the landlord should be asking the building people for compo and he should then be passing this onto the tenants. Everyone is happy!

      If the gas/water/power company cut services to your place, how long would you wait? While AC isn't up there with power, it could be like cutting gas. You could go buy elec heater or elec hot plate to cook on, but should you have to do this while they take 2-3 months to fix it? No….. would you ask for something from them if it happened? HELL YES!

  • infinite on 29/08/2014 - 16:41
    +28

    OK, so here's an actual outcome from a similar experience my wife and I had (as tenants) at a rental ppty a few years ago, that went to the residential tribunal.

    What happened:
    Start of November our AC system started making clunking noises and not heating or cooling, just making the house humid. The property agents were notified straight away. Two weeks later after repeat phone calls, no one serviced the unit in a timely fashion and it broke down completely. Over the next 9 weeks we logged 3 letters, countless e-mails and 20+ un-returned phone calls about the issue with no resolution. Late January the agent booked in a repair person finally and they turned up but only did a service/check, as they weren't authorized to repair. They called the ppty agent in front of us and advised them that it needed a repair. The agent said do nothing as they didn't have approval from the owner for the repairs. 2 weeks later and 6 more phone calls not returned, no response to our letter sent via registered mail, either. So we booked a Tribunal meeting. Went in and had the meeting delayed a week or so as the agent's were a no-show. Came back now and it's late February by this point.

    The tribunal meeting:
    The Owner turns up with the two agents from ppty management company. My then 8 month pregnant wife and I both appear. The tribunal member starts off by reading the applications & explanations from both sides for a few minutes. He then starts off the meeting by addressing the ppty agent "Well Mr XYZ, we tend to see two types of agents in here, the clueless ones who repeatedly lose their clients vast sums of money through inaction & those with the occasional dispute. This will be the 14th time you have appeared before just me alone in the last 6 months now, wont it". The owners eyes pretty much bug out and panic set's in on their faces. I become pissed but don't comment as the ppty agents lie about us not having contacted them, not having giving them notice, not notifying them of it being a problem and needing servicing. They lodge a few print-off's appearing to show no records in their system of us ever having contacted them & claim they log every last phone call to their work phones on their computer system, so we must be making this all up. The property agents are then left speechless when my wife and I lodge detailed phone records, photocopies of letters and print-off's of e-mails sent to them, all orgainsed by date & in a folder to both the tribunal and them. The tribunal member pretty much then tears shreds off the property agents after they get caught in lie after lie about everything they just stated (on the record). The Tribunal member literally grills the other side for a good 10min before we are even asked a question. The first question from the tribunal member is if we would like a few days to re-consider our claim for compensation and costs, so we could add on any additional costs we may have incurred, such as travel to air conditioned locations, and stays in air conditioned accommodation elsewhere. The Tribunal member really goes into detail about all the costings we may have incurred and would like to reconsider adding onto a revised claim. The owner at this stage steps forward and pleads with the tribunal member that he knew nothing of this & he shouldn't be up for any costs at all, it was all his agent's fault. The tribunal member almost laughs and starts asking him a series of questions about the paperwork he signed when he took on the agents and gave them authority to act on his behalf. He acknowledges that he understands he is responsible and when reminded he must respond truthfully, he suddenly recalls receiving multiple phone calls about the air conditioning over a 6 week period, starting 4 weeks after we initially reported the issue to the ppty agents, but "must have forgotten about it". He sits down and says nothing further.

    When we come back to the Tribunal the next week:
    We re-submitted our claim to the tribunal, this time for a lot more in costs. We applied for 6 weeks rent in full, petrol for traveling to air conditioned locations, costs for food and expenses we incurred staying at family members air conditioned houses and for costs associated with extra visits we had to have with the Obstetrician and Midwife. We went into great detail about the vast time we spent getting left on hold, not having questions answered & even being refused to be seen to when we visited them in their office one day. We had Stat Dec's signed by family members who we stayed with over the period, petrol receipts, shopping receipts and a letter from the Obstetrician and Midwife regarding the issues my wife suffered for not being able to be in a climate controlled environment. The owner did not show his face this time around and the agents (who turned up 15min late) argued the costs were ridiculous, but were asked to be silent until actually addressed. The tribunal member took everything from us, then photocopied it all and passed a copy on to the agents with some medical stuff blanked out. The tribunal member really went to town on the ppty agents, at one point going through our phone records and asking questions about why we were left on hold for over 30min at a time, all this sort of stuff. The ppty agents pretty much just took it and had nothing to respond with. The tribunal member advised both parties he would take the matter under advisement and rule in a week or so, sending out the decision by mail. He advised the ppty agents that they should seriously consider settling the matter with us outside of the tribunal proceedings. They did not follow that advice. After the meeting we ended up sharing an elevator back down to the lobby of the building and they wouldn't even make eye contact with us. As the doors begin to open, my wife says "Karma, hey". No response, they just rush-walk out the front doors.

    The letter we received in the mail 10 days later:
    The letter was pretty matter of fact and we were awarded costs equal to our last 1.5 months rent in the property (which we accepted instead of cash), as well as the 6 weeks we asked for on top of that. We didn't get everything we asked for, but just about all of it was awarded to us. The agents were advised any decision to not renew our lease or raise rent in the next 14 months would be reviewed by the tribunal board, including the member who presided over our dispute. We were advised of our rights to seek compensation outside of the residential tribunal system, in the courts, for this health issues and stress my wife went through. We were authorised to organise repairs using a service company of our choice & the owner was ordered to pay the costs, if repairs were not completed within 7 days of the date the letter was posted to us. The owners were also ordered to carry out repairs on any other outstanding issues within 7 days or the same would apply.

    The most idiotic part of all of this:
    The repairs for the air conditioning totaled under $200, including the call out fee.

    The outcome:
    We stayed for another 12 months with no rental increase, and had zero further problems after this. The owner apologised in person and he gave us his direct number to sort any further maintenance issues out. He orgainsed repair stuff with the ppty managers himself, so we wouldn't have to deal with them any more. The owner negotiated the tribunal costs back from the ppty managers via them providing free ppty management for a chunk of time into the forseeable future. When we left over 12 months later, the ppty managers tried to get all spiteful and attempted to withhold bond money as we "had failed to clean the dust off the curtains in the outgoing inspection". We laughed it off and the tenancy tribunal did too, refusing to hear the matter and keeping the application fee from the ppty managers. Which was a pretty hilarious last "f@@k you" they had to suffer. We got our bond back in full, no delays.

    • one man clan on 29/08/2014 - 16:52
      +4

      Amazing story!

      • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 29/08/2014 - 17:57
        +3

        You would be amazed at how common story's like this are. My friends have been threatened with withholding $300 of their bond for unclean curtains for imaginary pet hair, I have been to VCAT personally as the agents wanted to withhold $200 as they claimed I removed plants of the property. Well I had photos from day 1 that showed the backyard had a single solitary tree and I had receipts for every plant and pot. Note not a single plant was inserted in the soil (if i had of planted them i wouldn't be allowed to remove them).

        In that instance the tribunal laughed off the agents and got stuck into them big time once they saw my receipts and photos.

        Glad to hear you got a good outcome infinite.

    • Lysander on 29/08/2014 - 21:33
      +1

      Well, I guess that proves the points I and other people made: tenants have rights and both tribunals and courts do not like landlords who do not respond to issues and tenants, and intend to then retaliate by rent increases etc.
      Points proven and case closed.

      • ausmechkeyboards on 30/08/2014 - 00:42
        +1

        Points proven and case closed

        How about the matter of defamation though? You're not telling me you're going to let someone accuse you of potentially having a broken air conditioner online and let them get away with it!?

    • spriggy on 29/08/2014 - 22:23
      +1

      +1 just for the effort, story and a good outcome.

      Might be worth knowing which RE agency this is so other owners will stay far far away from them (not to mention name and shame).

      Responsibility comes from the top, and I suspect this is the RE agency's management style. If I were the owner, I would have replaced the RE agency straight after that episode.

    • [Deactivated] on 30/08/2014 - 12:34
      +2

      Wow.

      That's all I can say, really.

      The most idiotic part of all of this:
      The repairs for the air conditioning totaled under $200, including the call out fee.

      lol far out.

    • h4zey on 30/08/2014 - 16:44
      +1

      This is GOLD!!!

    • ankor on 31/08/2014 - 01:10
      +1

      That's reddit//prorevenge material right there man!

    • Davros on 01/09/2014 - 19:45
      -1

      Cool story bro, but, tldr

  • aussieaubs on 29/08/2014 - 16:54
    -3

    he won't get compo from you… forget it…. thats ridiculous… there is no provision in the statute for compensation to renters by an entity for air conditioning. and it hasn't been that hot either.

    • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 29/08/2014 - 17:57
      +1

      "the statute" can you explain which statute you are referring to?

  • hellosahu on 29/08/2014 - 20:56

    hey mate You should go according to the rule book, Tenants and landlord book called Renting guide which explain to the rule whats is landlord responsibility and what is tenant responsibility , that will clearly explain you everything. you don't need to consult to any legal person as nsw authority will also follow that book only..
    this is from my experience as a landlord and tenant..
    here's the link for you…

    http://www.rentbook.com.au/information/nsw-renting-guide

  • spriggy on 29/08/2014 - 22:47
    +1

    Claims are subjective isn't it? From the tenant's perspective, the AC has not been working for 9 weeks and counting. From the landlord's perspective, you have only been informed mid-way through that time, with the rest being consumed by delays from the building manager and RE agent.

    Technically, a tenant should be contacting the RE agency first thing something is not working. That should form the start of when the fault was notified. The RE agency should then work with the building management and landlord to ensure it is fixed promptly. It sounds like there were circumstances beyond your control that caused that 3 weeks delay. It does not look like you have purposely caused the delay or did not do anything about it when raised with you.

    I can see why the tenant felt hard done by with no AC for 2 months+, but at the same time landlord only knew of this 3-4 weeks prior and felt that it is unjust as well. OP, when you were made known of this fault, it looks like you have acted upon it straight away. If that is the case, it doesn't sound like there is wilful negligence in this matter. However it is best to consult with a lawyer.

    I think it is in both party's best interests to negotiate and settle outside of tribunal or court. You'll save time, trouble, effort, and stress. OP, you can perhaps contend the following in your favour when discussing compensation:

    1) You acted or gave the order to repair the AC straight away when it was raised with you (it's not like you have wilfully delayed the process for weeks and weeks)
    2) Repair delays thereafter were outside of your control
    3) Can you show evidence of the RE agent or you following up on repairs? If so that will be even more helpful
    4) It is not fair for the landlord to compensate for the period when fault was raised to building manager, then to RE agent. Time from RE agent onwards can be considered.

    Two week's rent does sounds like a lot in this situation. Look at it this way, tenant has asked for two week's rent compensation. It's not like he/she is starting from there and going up. It's from there for you to negotiate down. I would think he/she knows that two week's rent is a bonus if they managed to score it. One week's rent maybe a mid-way compromise for both of you.

    Good luck!

    • Lysander on 30/08/2014 - 13:46
      +1

      Even if it's four weeks, it is an awful long time to sort something as trivial as an aircon unit out. Tell me, if it is reasonable to take more than 4 weeks to get an aircon unit fixed, I suppose when the flood was in QLD that should have taken 2 years plus to fix in the CBD given all the damage and then that should have been considered reasonable.
      If your car is broken, most people would consider a week to be reasonable to have it fixed - why is an air-con unit four times more complex than a car?

      You are right - one week is a good compromise but even if it's two weeks that will still be much cheaper than engaging a lawyer (fees and your time), having to search for new tenants and possibly having some vacancy of the unit etc.
      I would not get stuck on one week - that should be the first attempt and the starting point for negotiation.

      • Davros on 30/08/2014 - 15:45

        "Even if it's four weeks, it is an awful long time to sort something as trivial as an aircon unit out."

        Obviously you have no idea and have never had to deal with tradies before.
        I recently waited 5 weeks just to get a tech out to quote, then another 2 weeks for the part and repair.
        Currently I have a 3 month wait for one to install sliding doors

        • Lysander on 30/08/2014 - 18:31
          +1

          Well, you must be doing it wrong then. I never had to wait that long - ever. Or all the tradies in your area are hopeless which I do not think is the case.
          Maybe you are on the tradies' blacklist? ;-)

        • Davros on 31/08/2014 - 08:55

          @Lysander:
          Never had to wait? I suggest that you dont own property and have never had to employ a/c trades mid summer
          That or you employ trades that are not busy, therefore probably poor quality tradies.

          Tradies blacklist - thats laughable but thanks for the personal attack

        • Lysander on 31/08/2014 - 22:35

          @Davros:

          See, I treat tradies with respect, and politeness, and most of all pay their bills promptly.

          You are making assumptions again, which unfortunately are wrong again and also portray the tradies I employ in a bad light which is not really fair as you do not know them, or do you?

          The blacklist comment was not a personal attack - do you really believe that tradies do not talk and gossip so they know who is a good client (who pays promptly, is respectful etc.) and who is not. Guess which client gets better service.

          Of course, you will never get to see or know of such a list unless you are a tradie or know a tradie very well.

          By the way, the same is valid for the legal profession, too. Most law firms know exactly which companies are good to have as clients and which are not.

        • kingmw on 01/09/2014 - 10:10
          +1

          @Lysander:

          I find it hard to believe that tradies share around a list of people that they consider are good or bad customers. Most people only require the services of tradies infrequently so this list would have to be massive for it to be of any use.

          Although tradies do not take a long time to inspect and give a quote, I doubt that you have not had to wait a few weeks or longer to have major renovations or improvements to be performed. Tradies also have to source essential parts to do certain repairs which can delay a simple job for weeks.

        • Davros on 01/09/2014 - 10:15
          +1

          @Lysander:
          I am a tradie myself so I know how we like to be treated and paid.
          I always pay on time and have never had an issue with work that was performed and I have never had a complaint about payment time frame or payment methods used.

          I also have never seen one of your imaginary tradie black lists

          You have made assumptions again which are wrong again and all you have done is make yourself look a bit silly again.

        • Lysander on 01/09/2014 - 11:39

          @kingmw:

          Well, I can tell you that in my profession people do talk to each other. And certainly I would be not be prepared to take on clients that consider themselves "Google educated lawyers" and consequently fight with me, question any legal advice or judgment etc. at every turn. It is fine to be checking but if you are like that why would one want to employ a lawyer in the first place? If you know better than the lawyer, do it yourself straight away. Also, those people have a tendency to then sue you if the court does not give them everything they want.
          If you are being honest, if you knew this, why would you want to take on such a client? You would not and lawyers in certain fields (say family lawyers) do talk and people do then sometimes know who is a "difficult" client and who is not.

          If parts need to be ordered, that is not the tradie's fault. What I am saying is that I have never had to wait a long time for a tradie to come out and do the work if and once the parts needed are there). To have to wait weeks for one to even come out is ridiculous.

        • Lysander on 01/09/2014 - 11:42

          @Davros:

          A lot of my friends are tradies and while they do not have an actual balck coloured list to go around, for some strange reasons they do talk and know certain people (although they have never worked for them) who are difficult around their work area.
          I wonder how that happens unless they do talk and exchange info - and why would they not?
          You are a bit too literal - of course there is no physical black list circulating around the tradies.

          Here in Brisbane, there is a guy who is a pest on the buses. Every bus driver knows him, even those who he has never travelled with (as he only travels on certain routes). How do you think that happens. Talk, gossip, exchange of information.

  • spychiatrist on 30/08/2014 - 00:31
    -2

    I never seen anyone got heaps of positive votes and negative votes in one forum. Well done Lysander. You could be heir to jv's throne.

    And to the OP, pay the tenant as Lysander said then issue eviction notice to tenant citing refurbishing of unit including aircon. Problem solved.

  • paloverde88 on 30/08/2014 - 01:31
    -6

    This is absurd

    Tenants needs to have informed you immediately when things are not working or faulty.
    What took them so long? They need to prove what are their damages like what was affected simply saying I was really hot is not good enough as that is not damaged caused. They have to also link it directly to the causation as your air con faultiness is the cause of say "mental illness" requiring 24 hour care at XYZ and this is the cost and this is the doctors letter stating faulty air con caused the air I breathe to be detrimental.
    You cannot just say I want compensation what is it that they want?
    Or they went out to buy a evaporative cooler as a last resort and incurred that cost because, they must also prove that they have complain about this to you again and again and it fell on deaf ears. They need to prove like phone bills emails, fax letters. Everything requires proof and also there's no such thing as open ended compensation they need to show as a result of your air con faulty, this is what I have loss 1. 2. with receipts and documentary proof. It has to be linked directly to the air con. For example if the population of cockroaches suddenly increased due to lack of air con, tenant needs a letter from entomologist stating to that fact. And then they enlisted the services of a pest controller, receipts etc. You cannot just say as a result of your air con faulty, I did not get enough sleep unable to go to gym and exercise to my full capacity or stupid excuses like that.
    Need to show Direct cause and effect
    receipts
    attempt to get you to correct the problem
    quantify damages

    • grammarstickler on 30/08/2014 - 02:31
      +4

      This is why ignorant people should be banned from becoming the landlords of decent working folk.

      • Davros on 30/08/2014 - 15:47
        +1

        And why ignorant people shouldn't comment in general.
        So may here clearly have no idea how things work in the REAL world

        • StewBalls on 01/09/2014 - 20:16

          So may here clearly have no idea how things work in the REAL world

          This is actually a huge issue with interpreting the advice you see presented in OzB comments; you can get a lot of textbook answers that are black & white, and would be quite plausible in a perfect world; however, real life is not so clear cut; there's many, many grey areas that require more adaptive thinking.

    • Mon Gol on 30/08/2014 - 10:16

      2 paloverde88

      i hope you are trolling otherwise my sympathy to your tenants if you have them

  • grammarstickler on 30/08/2014 - 02:48
    +3

    Essentially, this is a case of a tenant seeking to enforce their contractual right and a landlord whose sense of entitlement has panicked him/her into clutching at straws in the form of ozbargain legal advice, rather then meeting his/her contractual obligation. Coming up with the deposit for a rental property DOES NOT give you the right to force people from their home should they baulk at paying you for something you have patently failed to deliver, or to take advantage of their lack of title by unduly refusing their reasonable request of compensation simply because you want to keep money colllected under false pretences!

  • Freakycat on 30/08/2014 - 08:29
    -2

    Just kick them out. Their rent is mainly for living in the property, not for them to have a holiday in Caribbean.

  • Cheeper on 30/08/2014 - 10:15
    -1

    What would this pest of a tenant do if there was a blackout or an interruption to the water supply, also demand compensation for that too?
    The aircon was almost new, it is being repaired under warranty, what else does the tenant want?
    Get ready to hear more complaints from this tenant.
    I would not be renewing his lease. Let him go and find his perfect rental.

    • Sheez on 30/08/2014 - 16:56
      +1

      Tenants generally deal with electricity and water companies directly, so if they wanted any compensation they would have to take that up with those companies.

      If however the plumbing on the property was the cause, then yes the landlord is responsible.

    • Lysander on 30/08/2014 - 18:28
      +1

      Minus vote for not reading facts properly.

  • xordis on 30/08/2014 - 11:00
    +2

    If it were my property, I would be doing the following.

    Document all the information. Exact dates, emails, time of phone calls etc.
    If you have done everything in your power asked of you within a satisfactory timeline (I would consider satisfactory within 3-5 working days, but really you should have been making calls from day 1), I would refuse to compensate and take it to the local rental tribunal.

    I have been to one of these as a tenant (we were trying to kick someone off the lease) and they are relatively simple to do and are run by sensible people.
    If what you are saying is true and within reasonable timelines I doubt you would have to compensate any rent, but if you did it would be a fraction of the amount. (It's not like they weren't able to access the apartment)
    I would be getting prices of heaters from kmart (or where ever) and using that as a valid compensation amount, as if it was too cold to live comfortably, then the tenants would have bought a heater.

    We had something like this in a unit in NZ a few months ago, and it was getting that hot I had to turn it off overnight.
    http://www.betta.com.au/delonghi-hcm2030-heater-convection-2…

    And get landlords insurance.
    I can only assume you have bought the unit outright if you don't have it as every mortgage provider I have dealt with requires landlords insurance else they wont loan you the money.

    • ShannonIngram on 30/08/2014 - 21:09
      +1

      FYI landlords insurance not compulsory to get a loan - building insurance is. In this case the building insurance will be provided by the strata. Still a very good idea to have landlords insurance though given what the better policies can cover and how cheap it is.

  • 2046smh on 30/08/2014 - 13:53
    +4

    ITT: Lots of shitty landlords/potential landlords.

    • bucketbong on 30/08/2014 - 15:27

      Agree. Also plenty of shirty tenants.

      @Lysander Congrats on being a crusader and dedicating your time to the disfranchised and poor. But your litigious approach here is jarring and unhelpful.

      Fatboyslim said it perfectly: Nothing needs to go to court or tribunal. That should be the case 9/10 times, with the exception being the sort of nightmare agent/owner that infinite had to deal with.

      Unnecessary confrontation is what gives the legal community a bad name. It's one thing when the likes of Clive Palmer cries DEFAMATION!, but quite another here…

      • Lysander on 30/08/2014 - 18:27
        +4

        Please read my initial comments - I have always advocated negotiation and compromise and the courts as the last resort only. However, I would be prepared to follow through with my "promise" of involving the courts unlike most people if it was necessary and unavoidable due to an unco-operative and belligerent other party (see the comments of some people here - those I would take to court without hesitation just to get their revenge fantasies out of them).

        Not involving courts or lawyers is always (and I mean ALWAYS) best. Unfortunately, as you can see from this thread there are some people who only understand the language of courts, and having to pay money, and that is where the courts MUST be involved.

        • bucketbong on 31/08/2014 - 19:22
          +1

          I read all comments. You lectured OP about his responsibilities, waving the stick of legal action from the outset. As his offer demonstrates, he is not the unco-operative and/or belligerent type.

          You also made a baseless and horrid threat of defamation case - as I said, this was my greatest concern. These are the sort of words that gives legal community a bad name.

          A handful of posts pulled you up on this.
          Is there any risk of you recanting?
          Do you really think you had a genuine claim of defamation?
          Or that it was just and proper to suggest as much on this forum?

        • Lysander on 31/08/2014 - 22:46

          @bucketbong:

          1. I always said it was better and cheaper to meditae, negotiate, and settle, especially if the case does go to court, the OP has a great chance of losing it as he is in the wrong. Also, from the outset he made it clear that he thought the tenant was wrong rather than asking for genuine advice with an open mind. Only after several people suggested he should try to negotiate he posted that offer.

          2. I did not make a threat, just an invitation to the people who think they can skip law school to put their money where there mouth is. TBH, I am bit fed up with people here on OB that whine and whinge, and then, when they get the offer to test out their theory, suddenly disappear, make excuses etc.
            As I said to another poster, just because people are on a forum and using pseudonyms it does not mean that the internet is a space without laws and regulations that need to be followed.
            How do you think the police make their cases in other areas where people also use pseudonyms and not their real names? Those people are also identifiable.
            I had a recent case where one person defamed another person (both using pseudonyms) by saying they got fired from their last job for theft (which was a lie) on a forum like OB and because the defamed person was known under this pseudonym on sites such as their professional association sites was identifiable and hence defamation did occur. The person had to pay a six figure sum because it could be proven that the defamed person had not gotten several jobs because of that defamatory statement.

          There is a reason why it takes several years to become a lawyer. If all that was needed is the skill to read and find Wikipedia, then everybody would be a lawyer and all that training and effort would be superfluous. Unfortunately, there is more to being a lawyer than merely the skill to read statutes and Wikipedia (which in itself is not very trustworthy or have you ever seen the Supreme Court rely on Wikipedia as the basis of any of their judgments?)

        • bucketbong on 31/08/2014 - 23:33
          +1

          @Lysander:

          Yes, defamation can indeed occur online. Please advise if you honestly think it occured in the case we're specifically discussing.

          If not, why make the comment?
          What good-minded legal eagle would?

        • Lysander on 01/09/2014 - 11:47

          @bucketbong:

          OK, here is your example:

          Lysander is my real name, I use the same handle on professional forums hence I am easily identifiable. Now, if one of my colleagues or prospective clients reads this comment and consequently believe that a lawyer advising in this field, cannot actually handle his own landlord in a simple case like this, how much trust will the prospective client have to give me their case, and how much respect will my colleagues have for me. I would be the joke at every professional event because, yes, lawyers talk and gossip and some are not very nice.

          Does that satisfy you?

          I am not sure why you are defending a comment made by someone who does not know me, has never met me, and has made such comment purely based on unfounded assumptions. Can you enlighten me why, please or is this now done?

        • kingmw on 01/09/2014 - 18:39

          @Lysander:

          As was stated before, practicing lawyers would not give legal advice on an open forum so your example would never exist.

        • bucketbong on 01/09/2014 - 21:11

          @Lysander:

          Please advise if you honestly think defamation occurred in the specific case we're specifically discussing.

          If not, why make the comment?

  • nikey2k27 on 30/08/2014 - 15:40

    most like will pay for it

  • Janko on 30/08/2014 - 23:27

    @Lysander, you've mentioned a few times not to listen to OzBargainers because of indemnity against losses due to their information, but is it common that clients sue solicitors for poor advice in small cases like this? I'm assuming like any profession there are good and bad practitioners.

    • Davros on 31/08/2014 - 08:58
      +1

      "Lysander, you've mentioned a few times not to listen to OzBargainers because of indemnity against losses due to their information"
      Read as Don't listen to lysander.

      • Janko on 31/08/2014 - 12:34

        By "OzBargainers" I mean people whose qualification is being able to post on a forum.

        I feel we convince ourselves that we're safe going with professionals like accountants and solicitors because of protection.

        But if their advice is wrong, in practice it just doesn't seem to be feasible doing anything about it unless it causes major, major, major losses.

        And if anyone knows it's not worth pursuing, they do.

        • Lysander on 01/09/2014 - 11:57
          +1

          I get your point, but see my comment below. People do sue, often for a lucky shot. And of course, as in every profession different lawyers have different opinions.
          But it is for that reason that insurance is compulsory - so that if such losses occur the client is not left out in the cold.

      • Lysander on 01/09/2014 - 11:56
        -1

        Dude, I think you should be quiet now.
        You said you are a tradie but think you are qualified to dispense legal advise. If you were, you would be a laywer, not a tradie.
        It is actually quite arrogant of you to think you can.
        I am not a tradie and I do not pretend to give out advice regarding plumbing, woodwork etc. depending on whatever tradie you are. Do you know why: Because I am not qualified in this area and giving out advice would be an insult to those who worked hard to get that qualification. It lessens their qualifications and hard work if I pretended any Joe off the street could do what they do.

        • Davros on 01/09/2014 - 12:29
          -2

          "Dude, I think you should be quiet now.
          You said you are a tradie but think you are qualified to dispense legal advise. If you were, you would be a laywer, not a tradie.
          It is actually quite arrogant of you to think you can."

          "Dude" It is you who should be quiet.
          Nowhere have I dispensed legal advise, none whatsoever.

          As a so called "laywer" (whatever the hell that is) I would have thought you would at least be able to get your facts straight like any REAL lawyer would be able to do.

          All I can assume is that you are not an actual lawyer at all and are instead just some guy telling made up stories.
          Stories like the tradies black list that you mentioned earlier and of course the story about me giving legal advice.

          Once again you have made yourself look a bit silly, but please continue as it is quite amusing.

        • Lysander on 01/09/2014 - 14:36
          -1

          @Davros:

          Are you not telling people here what the legal situation is? In other words, what is reasonable etc. and sufficient for getting compensation? What is that? Shopping advice? Or is it legal advice? Just because you don't say "I advise…." does not mean it is not such.
          Anyway, I can see now why you have a "rep" on here - look at the thread - you are aggressive to quite a number of people and pick fights with them. Also you cannot take criticism as you then have to respond with a personal attack that the mods have to unpublish. Childish, childish, childish.

          Judging by your reasoning and behaviour on here it is reasonable to suspect that you are exactly one of those tradies that give them a bad name unfortunately. I just hope I never come across one like you.

          P.S.: Most people get the point that you should not comment unless qualified, obviously you do not.
          Now go forth and find some other people you can feed your half-knowledge to, please. Or maybe stick to what you know best and do some work in YOUR profession.

          By the way: do you do any tradie work for free as a service to the poor and the community?

        • Davros on 01/09/2014 - 14:51
          -1

          @Lysander: "Are you not telling people here what the legal situation is?"
          No lysander I have not so again you are making up stories and getting increasingly angry when your bshit is pointed out.
          Again, thanks for the LOL's and please continue with your near incoherent and irrelevant angry rants as I find it incredibly amusing.

          I imagine this is how you look while hammering the keyboard?
          http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii141/mindfieldzx/animate…

          I await your next installment, just give me a few minutes while I get a drink.
          Got to love Oz Bargain, FREE internet toys for all

    • Lysander on 01/09/2014 - 11:52

      Unfortunately, the culture of suing if you do not get what you want is expanding. So, to answer your questions, yes that does happen quitre frequently, which is why lawyers need to have insurance which is very costly. The more people sue, the higher the premiums, and the more the lawyers need to charge people. Not a great circle.

      But that is not what I meant. What I meant is if those people advocating illegal schemes and encouraging the OP to tell the tenant to "go and f… himself" are so conviced that their advice is right, and appropriate they should say to the OP:

      "Hey, if you follow my advice and if contrary to my expectations you lose and are held liable, I will pay all costs for you".

      It is one thing to dispense Google-fuelled education but quite another to actually stand by it with all consequences.

      And you are right, there are good and bad practitioners but even the good ones get sued which is costly for them, merely because a client's expectations were too high or the client thinks he can make a quick buck (and believe it does not hurt the solicitor as the insurance company will pay which of course is wrong).

      • Janko on 02/09/2014 - 15:46

        It's something like 10-15% of income they have to put towards insurance isn't it? Quite substantial if so. I'm not too against unqualified people dispensing advice, regardless of what's legal or not. If someone took for gospel what an unqualified person said, they deserve their losses.

        IIRC in the States legal advice given on public forums is not deemed to be legal advice as far as the law is concerned.

  • Ramrunner on 31/08/2014 - 09:19
    +3

    Why do people nowadays always feel like they are owed something and try to get something for nothing (present OzBargainers excluded - lol). Things happen in life beyond our control. The air conditioner broke down. It's a mechanical device. It happens. As long as the apartment owner is not purposefully dragging his/her feet or being rude or whatever, but making every effort to fix it, stop thinking everything is owed to you.

    It must be getting worse every generation. I'm 41 and have seen this kind of thing get worse every year. Mind you, the law is getting too stupid also. I have a friend who was not paid rent for 6 months, but still could not evict the tenants legally, and when he went to court, they came up with some "problems" with the property he was never made aware of and ended up with no rent for that 6 months, as the court sided with the tenant, AND he still had to give them another 3 months to vacate.

    So all that time effort and no rent for 9 months.

    If the courts keeps siding on the side of these idiots, no wonder they keep getting worse.

    • edgar28 on 31/08/2014 - 09:35

      Totally, i feel the same.

      Likely is "educated person mistreating kindergarten earthlings"…….

      e.g. bad people trespass your property, you defended, you might go to jail

    • mrmarkau67 on 31/08/2014 - 10:06
      -1

      The air conditioner broke down. It's a mechanical device. It happens. As long as the apartment owner is not purposefully dragging his/her feet or being rude or whatever, but making every effort to fix it, stop thinking everything is owed to you.

      If you are charging a customer for a service, and that service is unavailable for a while, why should the customer pay for the service during the time it is unavailable? The answer is, they shouldn't.

      What's so hard to understand about that concept here?

      If you are a landlord and you are incapable of managing your agents and contractors effectively, or dealing with the occasional tenant from hell (and most tenants are fine), get out of the rental property business!

      • Davros on 31/08/2014 - 10:16

        If you are a tenant and can't handle how the system works and have an unrealistic view of how the real world works, because you have never actual had to deal with it, buy your own place or move back into mummies basement

        • mrmarkau67 on 31/08/2014 - 11:27
          +3

          Customers: should pay for the services they get
          Suppliers: should deliver the services they are being paid for

          Which part of that is unrealistic?

        • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 31/08/2014 - 11:34
          +1

          @mrmarkau67: Don't mind Davros. He doesn't want potential tenants reading this forum thread and realizing that landlords have responsibilities to maintain the properties they lease out for profit.

        • Davros on 31/08/2014 - 12:20
          +1

          @mrmarkau67: the unrealistic part is that LL and PM's often have no real control over when repairers do the work. Tradies that are any good aren't just sitting around waiting to jump instantly to do my job. Tradies that are any good are usually booked up with work.

          I wouldn't expect unrealistic "want it now" tenants to understand this simple fact.

        • Davros on 31/08/2014 - 12:21
          -1

          @zeggie: childish comment

        • mrmarkau67 on 31/08/2014 - 13:56

          @Davros:
          Everyone knows that it takes talent and patience to manage. Managing subcontractors is no exception.

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