Apple Disinterest and Disdain.

Lcat06969 on 09/02/2014 - 09:43

Hi All. Just wanted your sage advice. My mid-2009 Macbook Pro died yesterday. The motherboard fried itself (coincidentally as I was performing an Apple-certified SMC reset). The machine's toast. I went in to my local Apple store to receive the diagnosis, and they said "you're lucky you got 4 years out of it - it's old!" They didn't care that their SMC reset may have contributed.. and to be fair, perhaps it was only coincidence that it did - though I suspect otherwise, as it was this isolated reset command that literally sent it up in a puff of smoke. Regardless, to my way of understanding, I paid $1850 for it 4 years ago - for a computer, that's a PREMIUM cost, paid for a PREMIUM product. I made the investment expecting it to last at least 7 or so years. For $400, I could have bought a cheap netbook if I'd wanted disposable quality. Does Aus Consumer Law give me any protection? Considering AppleCare would extend their product to 3 years, even Apple must think it should last at least that amount of time. Their attitude was disgraceful, and I left the store with them telling me to take it up with their Sydney legal department. Yeah - sure. Cheers Apple.

I'd appreciate your thoughts on this? The end result either way is that I'll now be up for another $1800! I wasn't expecting this for a few more years at least.

Computing

Comments

  • ethereal88 on 09/02/2014 - 09:59

    Nope. I bought a $3K ultrabook from Sony before ultrabooks existed back in 2009. By 2012 it was heavily obsolete (and had some irritating faults) and now Sony has sold off its Vaio business. $3K and within 5yrs its a paperweight. Point is, if you pay more than a $1K for a laptop, you are a fool. They are obsolete within a year. And Apple is even worse junk. Heavily locked down and soldered in, can't even replace bits yourself. Ironically I still have an old Atom netbook, and indeed, it still does work (I think). I replaced the Vaio with a $500 Lenovo laptop I can take apart and fiddle with - the RAM is replaceable as is the HDD and mSATA SSD. You could also dissemble the heatsink off the CPU to clean. Plus for only $500 its at least 20% faster than my $3K Core 2.

  • wharlie on 09/02/2014 - 10:02
    +2

    Sorry but you paid for a premium "name" not a premium "product".
    IMO you probably won't get Apple to pay even given the Australia consumer protection laws.
    4 years is at the lower end of the expected life for a notebook but in my experience it is not uncommon. On the other hand I've seen elcheapo notebooks last forever.
    In reality apple product, although premium, are consumer grade products ie not very durable.
    If you want something that will last go for one of the business grade notebooks from the likes of Dell, not as "shiny" as an apple but more likely to last.

  • lakers1222 on 09/02/2014 - 10:05
    -3

    I have been told that apple provides one of the best customer service. In my experience, they only provided good customer service before you buy a product, so they can secure the sale. Once your items are out of warranty, even by a day, they're 'apple geniuses' are completely and utterly useless. BTW, there genius are nowhere as smart as the regulars on whirlpool.

    My iPad had fried itself while charging using the provided cable. It had obvious screen burn and was only a couple months old. They were willing to replace it with a refurbished device. I much rather get a new one, but they disagreed. It was a major fault, and I am entitled to a refund.

    Apple, you little b*tch. You are not above the law.
    http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/apple-f…

  • RockyRaccoon on 09/02/2014 - 10:42

    The mistake you are making is that you believe that paying more for an item means you will get more life (years) out of the product. Like for like, that might be true, but when you buy extra features…

    The analogy is that if you buy a Yaris for $15K, with a 3 year warranty, then buying a $150K Lexus means you will be entitled to a 30 year warranty.

    Or I buy even a Yaris Manual for $15K and a fully spec'ed Automatic for $25K I can expect a 5 year warranty

    Now if you buy as some above suggest an Atom netbook, you will probably do just as well if all you want is email or some basic web browsing. But my guess is that you didn't buy it for that reason.

    While that isn't a consolation for someone who has to replace their computer after 4 years, shit does happen for everyone. And as an Ozbargainer I can feel your pain.

    Your "need" to do a SMC reset would indicate that you were having issues with the computer, this is suggested if you may have had an issue with a fan not turning off. But it only works if the fan is constantly running and the unit isnt getting hot.

    Now if the unit is getting hot and the fan is running, resetting the SMC will do nothing. Its a different issue, so without being a technician, it could mean that the board was being fried and the SMC reset wouldnt fix that anyway.

  • TheAviator on 09/02/2014 - 10:56

    I believe consumer law is that goods should work for a reasonable life, reasonable based on price etc. I think your best option would be to go to an Apple Store and ask them again, if they still refuse let them know your rights under consumer law and see what they can do.

    • Geewhizz on 09/02/2014 - 11:11

      Best to go in with the correct information though. Current consumer law doesn't apply to products bought that long ago. Nonetheless, you're still entitled to expect a reasonable life from it.

      Why not give the ACCC a call and get their opinion OP?

  • Lysander on 09/02/2014 - 11:31

    Regarding Apple being a premium product everything that has been said here is correct. It is not a premium product - you merely pay for the name. Apple products are made in the same Foxconn factories as many other brands - essentially all of these products are Chines, not American etc. Keep that in mind when buying Apple products (Samsung and Sony do have their own factories).

    Given you paid $1850 and the product broke after 4 years Apple will have to repair at no cost. It is really clear that the product was not fit for purpose. Also, given there is a good chance their program contributed to or caused the whole damage only strengthens your case.

    Here is what I would advice you to do:

    1. Ask Apple in writing to rectify the situation. Find the appropriate consumer law provisions, refer to them, and include a copy in your letter. The ACCC can help with that. Also, set a reasonable date by which they need to reply and also when you expect them to have rectified the problem.

    2. Inform the ACCC of the matter.

    3. If nothing happens or Apple refuses, file a claim with the QCAT (Queensland Civil and Administrative Tribunal) in the BOQ centre in Brisbane (159 Queen Street I believe). The cost is $22.20 plus the postage for sending the claim and supporting documents to Apple.

    Don't worry - this is a straighforward process. A date for mediation will be set and most cases settle then as companies fear costs and publicity if their wrongful behaviour is publicised (they know what they do is wrong - they just rely on people not taking action).
    If it does not settle at mediation, the tribunal will hear it. You do not require a lawyer and even if you lost (which in your case I believe is very, very unlikely) there are no extra costs as in fact lawyers are not allowed in the hearing.

    Since you are in Brisbane time permitting I am happy to answer more questions in person or assist with the QCAT claim if you require such help.

    Here is a relevant link regarding lifetime:

    http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/apple-f…

    Quote:

    "Mr Sims added that consumer guarantees did not have a time limit, but applied for as long as "reasonable to expect given the cost and quality of the item".

  • nubzy on 09/02/2014 - 11:37

    Apple are certainly not a premium product. Many faults with their devices, I went through three ipad minis before finding one that didn't have screen problems. Their staff are smug and pretentious and to get anywhere with them requires a lot of effort. You are paying for the name and image. I have a Samsung laptop bought 5 years ago for $1400 and still running perfectly and fast.

    • mrmarkau67 on 12/02/2014 - 13:59
      -1

      The original post was about an $1800 Apple laptop, not the low end iPad. Apple notebooks are a premium product, sold at a premium price.

      Lenovo, Asus, Dell, Toshiba, and even Sony each have several ranges of notebooks ranging from cheap & cheerful low-res plastic to slim high-res Ultrabooks to monster mobile workstations/gamers to rugged, upgrade-able business class laptops.

      Apple has defined its own niche, and both ranges of notebooks are on the premium end of things.

      An individual can have good or bad experiences with any brand. Anecdotes does not equal data. In survey after survey Apple notebooks come out on top in terms of reliability and customer satisfaction.

      http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2415494,00.asp
      http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/buying-advice/laptop/3419512/most…

      The results might be different for the Asus, Dell and Lenovo if the low end stuff they sell was in a different category, but they are always lumped in together.

      Disclosure: I use Dell Latitude and Dell Precision laptops. 1080p is good enough for me, and the ridiculously low resale value on these machines means I can get a tough, upgrade-able, repairable, laptop and stuff it with the RAM and ssDs that my particular workload demands.

  • Lysander on 09/02/2014 - 11:40

    I might add that if the matter settles at QCAT and they replace your laptop or repair it Apple will require you to keep it confidential as they do not want it to get out as then thousands and thousands of people would realise they have similar claims and that would be very, very costly to Apple (or any other company that flouts contract law on occasion, for example by merely issuing refunds rather than refund plus compensation to buy the product elsewhere for example).
    However, that is good for you as Apple would not want a proper courtcase as all records are public. If they lose there, it will set a precedent. They do not want that - therefore there is more incentive and motivation for them to settle as it is better to give you new $1800 laptop than having to pay $50 million to all the other people who lhave legitimate claims but do not pursue them and force Apple to honour them.
    In any case, the issue for you will be solved - if other people have a m similar issue, they should file claims, too. At $22.20 the costs is really negligible given that we are talkkng about $1800 worth here.

    If you require help, PM. Keep in mind though that I check into Ozbargain quite irregularly (usually once a week), so please be patient.

  • MITM on 09/02/2014 - 12:52

    Lots of non-apple fans here, so as another example of quality products, I once bought a top-of-range Citizens divers watch that I expected to hand down the generations. However, with each battery replacement (2-3 years) it also required pressure testing - fair enough.
    So a $2 battery replacement cost $100+ and sent off to somewhere for 10 days - no problem.
    Then one year, a seal or something needing replacing during a service, but the part was now obsolete - making the diving function of the watch redundant. The watch still goes, but isn't waterproof anymore.

    I used to enjoy hearing it beep with every 10m of descent during a dive, and every 10 mins of dive time. It got a fair bit of use but now its an ornament.

  • cat06969 on 09/02/2014 - 17:12

    Thanks Lysander. You give me hope that it might be worth pursuing. To add, the machine had many more problems over the 4 years - indeed, as others here have posted - the "premium" tag is alot of spin and marketing, it seems. Issues I can remember were: glass screen splintering easily (twice), rubber foot falling off, thereby exposing the inside circuit board to direct water damage etc. Dead hard drive. The 'premium aluminium' case is milled so thin it dints like soft alfoil. The screen flops due to weak hinges. And finally, this dead logic board was the final issue that finished it off. I'll spend the $22.20 with QCAT and see what they say - thanks again for the sugg's. Will report back here on how it unfolds. I think I'm screwed though!

    • Lysander on 09/02/2014 - 23:13
      +2

      I don't think you are screwed. Just make sure you describe what happened that led to the laptop being dead. Do not mention all the other stuff as I assume they were fixed by you or Apple. Only mention those things that Apple cannot ttribute to you - in other words only mention those that were clearly and unambiguously Apple's fault such as dead hard drive and the hinges. Apple will say that you caused the glass to splinter and the rubber foot to come off hence I would not go there.
      It is probably easisets to just keep it to the issue at hand and see what they say. The QCAT form takes maybe 15 minutes to fill in so all quick and easy.
      As I said you won't be able to report back as that is part of the proceedings and the deal (I can assure you this is one thing they want!). But you could report that you are very happy on a random day in the future maybe - maybe being able to buy something with money you saved elsewhere.
      Wish you all the best. The mediation will be between 4-6 weeks after you file the claim. You can other go there or phone in but you have to let them know - the mediator will also call you about two weeks before the date to explain the process to you and answer any questions.

  • johninmelb on 10/02/2014 - 07:40

    Interesting.

    I have an old Compaq laptop bought in the US in 1999. Only 64mb, so totally useless now, but it is still going strong. Only replaced the HDD in it in all those years.

    Mind you I tend to look after things and make them last, but this laptop went round the world several times and has had a good workout over the years.

    But I guess with any sort of electronics, life expectancy is in the lap of the gods.

  • kaos on 10/02/2014 - 09:44
    +2

    here we go again.

    1. Buying a more expensive product does not get you a greater implied warranty. Buying a better quality product does. Buying an Apple product will PROBABLY get you a better implied warranty because of it's quality image. This has nothing to do with the actual quality of the product- if Aston Martin slap a badge on a smart car, you would expect that smart car to have a better warranty than if you bought it from Smart, and in Australia that would be true because of the consumer laws.

    2. Just because Apple use the same factories and the same parts does NOT mean that their products are the same as the competition. Apple has final right of refusal over those products, and if they hold them to a higher quality standard, those products will be of better quality. Example- you have a bunch of computer parts and give them to a pro PC builder and an amateur, which pc will be better 'quality'? Example 2- you give those pc parts to a professional builder who builds 2 pc. You tell him that one will be extensively scrutinised for quality- which one is going to be better quality?

    3. OP's machine seems to have had a bunch of faults. Good- he has a better chance of convincing the law that his machine was a lemon and should be replaced. Bad- sounds like some of those faults could have been due to rough treatment. This is not covered by any warranty.

    4. Four years is stretching it a bit. I don't think it's likely that OP will win in a straight implied warranty claim against Apple after 4 years

    5. Good luck proving that a CMOS reset caused the smoke to escape from your machine. But even if you could, see point 4.

    Sorry to sound like such a downer, but this sounds like clutching at straws.

    • cat06969 on 10/02/2014 - 10:30

      Thanks kaos - no here-we-go-again-ing though, this is my first-ever post. Clutching at straws - yes of course I'm clutching at straws - 4 year-old $1850 straws. I've owned other Apple products in the past - all fail prematurely, and this one's the worst due to this initial cost. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a costly item to last a reasonable time. Rough treatment? Not once. I'm done with Apple, which I'm sure they won't mind.

      • donkeydoc on 13/02/2014 - 19:47
        +1

        Good for you, you'll save plenty of money from now on :)

  • Orgazmo on 10/02/2014 - 14:01

    I've had 2 iPhones repaired by Apple free of charge out of warranty. Just send it back (for free) using their website even though it's going to say they will charge you.

  • kaos on 11/02/2014 - 10:40
    +1

    Fair enough, and I apologise if you thought the here-we-go-again was directed at you. It was about the other comments regarding consumer law and implied warranties. A lot of people on this site get their knickers in a twist about how they're going to beat 'the man' and get stuff fixed or replaced when they don't have a snowflakes chance in hell.

    Also please don't think I'm on Apple's side- I'm not, but I was an Apple dealer for over 15 years, so I have seen this situation more than once. I won't make any more comment about rough treatment except to say people's standard do vary wildly!

    Good luck

    • tonyjzx on 11/02/2014 - 12:25

      4yrs is a good stretch

      i wonder how people expected to get their bottom kissed after that length of time

    • cat06969 on 12/02/2014 - 09:14

      Cheers Kaos. I wasn't bothered, and I appreciate your input regardless! I think the 'premium' connection to Apple stems in part from the fact that their OS really is magnificent, when compared to other OS's. Then, a lot of the hardware they use is the same as you'd find in any PC, so they all fall over - Mac or PC, soon enough due to that fact alone I guess. All good.

  • morpheu on 11/02/2014 - 14:24

    Most people would agree when it comes to Apple you are paying a premium price, and in return you are getting a 'premium' product, but i put that in quotes because it's clear the definition of a 'premium' product varies, is it better quality components? better design? exotic flashy materials? better resale value? or long life as this topic is referring to? i would say a little of all the above, but not in equal amounts, i mean an MBP may be different to an iPad, but maybe the mix is 40% better quality parts, 30% design, 20% resale value, longevity 10%, i figure electronics are electronics, no matter how good the parts are they still are subject to heat/dust/vibration etc and eventually succumb to something, Apple parts may last a bit longer but you can't compare them on a linear basis i.e 'i paid double the price so i must get double the usage from it', maybe it's more like 'i paid double the price for more features/less weight/better looking/because i'm a brand snob' etc etc if you are worried about longevity them maybe you should buy the cheapest Apple model and then pay extra for 3 years Apple care warranty.
    Personally i don't see the point in keeping a laptop for 4 years as tech moves along so quickly, well unless that model was way way ahead of it's time and was a major leap in features(as opposed to a merely incremental update as many companies love to squeeze the max $$$ from consumers) but here's an interesting question, i know a 'future-proof' laptop is unlikely but if Apple bought out a new MBP and promised it was future proof for at least 5 years but the price is +50% how many people would buy it? for someone who changes laptops say every 18-24 months it may work out cheaper. I'll give an example, i bought a tablet a while back that was a quad core with 2gb RAM and retina type lcd when most were still buying dual core with 512/1024mb and low res lcd so i got to use it for say 8 months then i sold it for a good price because the specs were still strong.

    • RockyRaccoon on 11/02/2014 - 15:19

      Typical non apple user, all you are interested in parts specs, well that's fine and all power to you, but computers for the rest of us, are also about how they are used rather than straight specs.

      Its like user interface, you know where some programer, designer thinks about how people interact with what they are using.

      eg Putting spaces and formatting in something being designed so it makes for easier reading! Rather than just dumping down a whole lot of data… :)

      • morpheu on 11/02/2014 - 17:55
        +1

        dude, i split my post into two paragraphs, i hate reading the "Great Wall of Text" too, but on the other hand i'm not going to start a new line for every sentence!

        oh and yes, i like specs, guilt as charged, i prefer more 'bang per buck' and not ask questions like "Does this laptop come in green"! maybe that's why some here are still using an Intel Core 2 Duo on an old Mac!
        ps on the flip side, for similar reasons that's why you will sometimes come across some comedian on Gumtree selling his old Mac lappy with C2D cpu for over $600!

        • tonyjzx on 12/02/2014 - 09:49
          +1

          I think as an Apple user, one should capitalise words like PREMIUM more so one feels more important than Windows users and that even after spending TWICE what the avg. pleb spends, Apple should still kiss my arse after the warranty and useful life of the unit is over…

  • samfisher5986 on 12/02/2014 - 13:37

    There is so much wrong in this thread.

    The ACCC consider the iPad to be a premium device, so naturally you would assume their laptops are as well.

    Unfortunately $1800 for a 4 year laptop is reasonable, I doubt you will have much luck.

    I can see you are blaming Apple for the way they have done something, well people like you should not be buying Apple products, you should know better.

  • tonyjzx on 12/02/2014 - 13:42

    delusional to put an arbirtray 7 YEAR life span on a product…

  • kaos on 13/02/2014 - 11:15
    +1

    I've just re read the posts by Lysander. Oh dear, you're making out like there is a big conspiracy to keep people in the dark about their rights. 'Apple will make you sign a confidentiality agreement' and 'Apple don't want this information to get out'

    In reality, Apple lose cases like this all the time. It's not secret. The way they keep the number of claims down is simply because it's a PITA to do the paperwork, so in a way the government is helping them……..

    The people hearing these cases are often not very technically minded and tend to err on the side of the consumer. I called this one in Apple's favour because of the age of the machine, but I could easily be wrong. As before- good luck OP.

  • cheepwun on 16/02/2014 - 18:51
    +1

    4 years. $1850 dollars.
    $462.50 per year. Or the price of a (perfectly good) budget laptop every year. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the thing to last 7 years.

    A while back there were Nvidia chip failures in a lot of models of laptops from all brands. I wonder if that could be the cause of death here. Otherwise, in general, heavily integrated (tight) designs tend to do more heat-related suicides than the usual run-of-the-mill models. That could also be a contributing factor.

    A search on the net could bring to light common causes of death on your particular model. It could strengthen your argument in dealing with Apple.

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