Just got this email from Commonwealth bank:
Signatures will soon be phased out and all credit and debit cards issued in Australia will require a (Personal Identification Number) PIN to pay for purchases in person
Having worked a cash register, signatures take up so much time when there's a queue of 10 people waiting. On the other hand, it might get annoying to have to get up to input a PIN at a sit-down restaurant if they don't have a wireless terminal.
What do you guys think?
Probably likely to change because based on OP post, ALL credit and debit cards issued in Australia will require a PIN. Unless you have a foreign card
Sounds good to me. I've never even signed my card and I've never had a person check it yet.
Aren't you concerned about it being lost/stolen?
It's not like it's difficult to copy someone's signature anyway.
Technically your card isn't valid if you don't sign the back and the cashier is meant to decline it, but no one every does.
Visa are employing this policy on all Visa cards in 2014/2015, I believe (I can't remember the exact date). So no matter which bank you're with, it will be the same if you have a Visa card.
I don't remember PIN on any of my credit cards. I prefer paypass.
I think the reason they want to force you using PIN is that they can easily reject dispute on a transaction that has been approved by a PIN, or in fact I read it in the terms and condition that you cannot dispute a transaction with PIN.
You never spend more than $100?
no
Thanks to Ozbargain my penny pinching skills have risen tenfold.
Signature places the liability on the merchant to validate your signature whereas PIN puts the liability on the card holder. It's only a matter of time before all banks will phase out the signature.
This is great news! I've been wanting for years to disable signature verification on my cards, it is nothing but a security hole.
Not enough to make me go back to CBA though.
I've noticed quite a few restaurants are starting to have portable eftpos machines - this must be why.
But what is the process for PIN transactions if the system goes down? Signatures provide a manual backup method.
I think signatures could still be used in such cases as the bank would have the cardholders signature that they obtained during the application process. What is being phased out is the option the cardholder had to choose between PIN and signature.
Actually, if the system is down your transaction won't go through anyway so the signature option is irrelevant.
You will have to pay with cash when system is unavailable.
Not so. I was at a Mobil service station today risking my life on one of their pies and all their CC transactions were being processed by an old machine that impresses the card details onto a carbon copy form (very old school) everyone had to sign while I sat watching. Obviously they were having issues.
Not all merchants have the old school carbon copy machine. I have seen signs put up at various places ''cash only'' because the payment system is down.
Also I don't think too many customers would like to make payments on such machines since more of their personal details are recorded in plain sight on the copy forms and it's a far less secure payment system.
I agree it's less than ideal and no doubt the CC companies will start asking for their return or destruction if signatures are to be banned completely even as a back-up. Just saying it isn't so just yet but maybe Stevo was suggesting the future.
Signatures provide no security anyway. You could make some chicken scratches and they would still accept it.
True. But if it was a stolen card, the cardholders could then prove that it wasn't them that did the transaction as the signature on the receipt is not theirs. However with PIN, it is the cardholders' responsibly to ensure nobody knows their PIN and hence it would be very difficult to dispute a transaction where PIN was used. And this why signature is being phased out.
If your card is stolen, people can still use that to purchase things under $100 through PayPass until u tell the bank to block the card. In that case, Paypass is also a security lophole.
Yes. But the cardholder is protected if the card is reported stolen as soon as he/she realises this. And most card issuers factor this protection as on ongoing cost.
I like signatures as it is not so easy to copy, no pin for me and I am with CBA, so cna they enforce this or is it just that they would like all to use a PIN?
Not sure what they want to do, but banks can enforce this by declining transactions were signature was used. Also, the EFTPOS devices will eventually be modified to force PIN entry.
Given the lackadaisical attitude most sales/checkout staff have when it comes to checking signatures, it really doesn't matter how difficult they are to copy - most won't even check!
PIN-only can only be a good thing for all involved (nothing worse than getting stuck behind someone using a signature at the self-serve checkouts at woolies!).
I can be worse with PIN. When I use my debit card, I am more likely to accidentally key the wrong PIN (I use multiple cards and forget which one I'm using), or hit the wrong key by accident. I actually get a little flustered with using PINs while trying to simultaneously cover the keypad.
Maybe you should stick with cash ;-)
I used to check and got hell for it. Even if it wasn't the same and you told your manager the store did nothing. Hence I stopped bothering being so particular about it. I would imagine most staff are the same.
I just assumed that maybe they weren't even going to bother recording signatures on the back of the card, but perhaps they'll keep that for manual transactions.
I have chosen to avoid PINs as long as I could. I know eventually I'll have no choice.
Thank goodness…my signature is the letter 'R'
I never use pin to make a purchase, always a signature. If I have a say, signature is my way.
I think this is one of those things that younger people will accept (not care about) where as older people will be up in arms over having to remember these dang fangled PIN numbers.
I've never understood what Woolies and Coles do with all of the signatures they collect. Do they seriously store them all in case there is ever an issue? That would suck, not to mention most signatures are a lot easier to fake than some might think and cashiers really don't care.
Besides if you can't remember your pin then just make it the price of a cheese pizza and a large soda at Panucci's Pizza.
Yeah I agree, I always enter a PIN/paypass unless it's at a restaurant where they bring back a receipt to sign.
I'm not sure what big chains do with all the signatures, but where I work they certainly do hang onto the paperwork for several years. A couple of times we've had people dispute charges (because they're old and forgetful - they weren't deliberately trying to con us), and we've had to go back through paperwork to show our bank the oldies truly did sign for their purchase.
Truly a sign of the times though… I wonder when cheques will be phased out?
"The price of a cheese pizza and a large soda at Panucci's Pizza"
0609 Futurarma <3
Yep, I used to work at Big W, and we had filing cabinets in a room upstairs with every signature for the last ten years. It's kinda ridiculous.
This is industry wide and pushed by card schemes (Visa, MasterCard, AMEX) and major financial institutes.
http://www.australianbankingfinance.com/technology/accc-lets…
ACCC lets Visa, MasterCard end signatures
The competition watchdog will allow Visa, MasterCard, American Express and specific financial institutions to work together to remove the use of signatures for card transactions in favour of PINs.
Visa and MasterCard independently planned to phase out signatures as a means of customer verification next June with American Express making similar arrangements.
Subsequently, the card providers approached the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) seeking authorisation under the cartel provisions of the Competition and Consumer Act to phase out signatures simultaneously. Authorisation provides statutory protection from court action for conduct that might otherwise raise concerns under the competition provisions of the Act.
Don't use cards. Always use fistfuls of hundreds. If I can't buy it outright I don't buy it.
I don't use credit cards for credits (borrowing). With credit card, I can watch where I've spend money. I have problems with using cash because its very easy to lose track of spending. Having a credit card does not make me want to buy something that I can't afford, although I have the balance to cover it.
Not here. I have bundles of hundreds ready for spending or saving. Plastic free 4 eva.
man, your life would suck if your house burned down or you got broken into and you had that cash stolen, hahah
I have stashes all over the place. Naturally.
Not everyione is a drug dealer, or cash-only tradie :-).
What about online purchases? hmmmm
Online purchases are a different ball game altogether and have nothing to do with signature/PIN. They are classified as cardholder not present transactions and have always used card expiry & CCV/CVV code to authenticate the card.
I suppose with those criteria used for online purchases makes it pretty safe.
what about the coles Buy $50 "Visa Only 1" ref http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/122504 it doesnt come with a pin. i hoped to stock up on these but can you add a pin to these later on.?
This is not exclusive to CBA.
A huge majority of credit card fraud involves signatures as they are very easy to forge and are not often verified.
Remember that smaller transactions now sometimes go through without the need for a signature or PIN at all when using the chip, and never when using PayPass/Wave.
Thank god. i havent used a signature for years, i wrote 'Pin Only' on the back years ago because i thought it made more sense then a crappy line of swirls.
Having worked in retail i think i may of been one of the few people to ask shoppers to sign their slip again.
Why do a perfect signature on the card if you are not going to do it the same every time?
As someone who works in retail: GOOD!
I hate checking signatures, and when it doesn't quite match up, being forced to decide whether or not to make a big deal out of it when in all likelihood this person is just having a bad day or has adjusted their signature since signing the card. (I know I've done that when signing).
At my job, I was instructed to press that yes, the signature's been verified before giving the paper to the person to sign because every step takes the eftpos machine so long it doubles the transaction time… not fun when there's a queue of 5 people.
My old boss wouldn't never even check them first.
They're not secure.
An expose was conducted at Woolworths a while back and cards were being signed M Mouse and D Duck even though the cards being used were genuine the staff were paying scant attention to the actual signatures being used
A pin is better than a signature for security purposes but nothing is 100% perfect the lowlifes in our society will always endeavour to rip off the system
The move to Tapping your card is now quite common whilst only for small amounts it does not require a pin or signature
The main issue that I can see with this is consistency, travelling in NZ for example I've been told the machine will accept only a 4 digit PIN so have had to sign on occasion where my PIN contained a different number of characters. I hope they can all agree on a compatible system surely it's in all of their interests (the CC companies) so that they can target our spending patterns more accurately.
Interesting. I thought all cards came with only 4 digits PINs. All my cards have 4 digit PINs. How many digits is the PIN on your card?
You can usually set up a PIN of up to 6 digits. Call your bank and they can tell you what to add to your existing PIN for it to work. Usually it's '00' either before or after your PIN.
My PIN has been 8 digits for years, most (not all) Australian banks allow you to use an 8 digit PIN on their card, and its been a few years since I've seen a 4,digit only ATM in Australia.
I still see them overseas, so I just enter the first four digits and it always works. This means that a PIN is really only as secure as the first four digits. (ie. A thief could use a four digit ATM and narrow it down plenty.
I haven't signed a debit or credit card in years, occasionally I get asked and I offer them my license (most decline)
This makes no sense to me. You use an 8 digit PIN even though you know it is no more secure, and don't sign your card because you don't want to, so anyone who takes your card can just sign it themselves.
Smells fishy or just plain dumb.
I use an 8 digit PIN because it's something I easily remember, and something others wont. (It's random, non-meaningful)
I don't bother signing it because I hate when it doesn't sign properly, and I'm lazy. If someone steals it I know it's protected.
what happens with over the phone transactions.
As far as I understand, this mandate only applied to transactions were the cardholder is present to enter the PIN/sign when the transaction is performed. Over the phone transactions, similar to online purchases, are treated as cardholder not present transactions. So this mandate done not apply and they should continue to be done as they are done today.
how often have you had to use your PIN while completing an over the phone transaction?
about as many times as ive signeD.
While not associated with CBA, I do work for one of the other big 4, and as others have said, this is industry-wide. Not specific to any one bank.
These changes are set to come in as of July 1, 2014 however (last I heard anyway) they are still pending regulatory approval. In saying that it's probably 99% likely these will go ahead as planned unless someone comes up with a great reason not to.
Several countries have already adopted a PIN only system.
What about when you go overseas to a developing country where chips aren't even yet standard?
I can see this whole phasing out period going for many years.
You don't need a chip to use the PIN though.
They need to remove the swipe system since tap and insert card has basically taken over and all cards have chips, the swipe is useless in my opinion and swiping damages the stripes a lot easier than the chip itself.
This will be very hard to do. Since none of the ATMs in Australia can read chips yet, cards need to have the magnetic stripe if they need to be used at ATMs. And since debit cards do no support chips, the EFTPOS terminals need to continue to support swipe transactions.
All of my recent debit cards support chip.
OzJD, what I meant by debit card was a card that does not have a 'Credit' account associated with it. These are, more often than not, traditional magnetic stripe cards without chip. However, they are slowly being phased out.
Sorry. I know what you mean now.
Such as under 18 cards that are not allowed Visa/Mastercard (unless that has changed)
Since none of the ATMs in Australia can read chips yet
Many ATMs were upgraded to support EMV Chip Cards. There are even chip-only ATMs (very rare though).
CBA ATM - https://www.commbank.com.au/about-us/atm/features.html
Our enhanced ATMs have been specially designed for enhanced protection against fraud and skimming. Our new ATMs now recognise EMV chips, which provide more security than the traditional magnetic strip. Thanks to this EMV technology, your information is more secure than ever before, so you'll enjoy world-class protection and greater peace of mind on every transaction.
Also Wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMV
Australia
MasterCard required all point of sale terminals to be EMV capable by April 2013. For ATMs, the liability shift took place in April 2012. ATMs are required to be EMV compliant by the end of 2015[26]
Visa's liability shift for ATMs is 1 April 2013.[24]
Thanks, TtiGeR. I wasn't aware that CBA have already started using EMV chips on their ATMs. However, it might still take a few years before all the ATMs start accepting chips.
Don't need a pin with pay wave for under $100
It's more like swipe might phase out, new technology are the chips, insert and tap, almos every single shop now days are using machines with tap or chip inserts. The swipe, so rare.
One step closer to the Mark of the Beast.
Baby steps…
Now that's going to be really awkward if you have just gone through the supermarket checkout with your weekly shopping, filled up on petrol or finished your meal at the restaurant and have forgotten your PIN. (if the bill total is more than $100 and you can't use paypass/paywave)
This scenario will happen more often than you may think eg, you just got a new card and changed the PIN, you changed the PIN on your current card, all people have memory blanks sometimes, those people who are used to using signatures rather than PINs.
There is also the possible scenario where your primary credit card does not validate for whatever reason and you are forced to use a secondary card, but since you don't use this card very often you have forgotten the PIN.
So for those retailers saying this can only be a good thing, there are also downsides.
Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeellll, ever heard of GASP! cash? You know. That paper? Or do people just exist from credit card to paycheck now in 2014?
ever heard of GASP! cash
Of course some idiot has to downvote your comment. I voted you back up.
Cash is king. Anonymity. Privacy. Ability to grab more bargains and negotiate with. Nearly always faster at checkouts. Jobs done in cash needn't be reported to The Cartel, nor pay for their political parasites either.
People like the convenience of "one statement showing me all I bought" so they can get their tax records right for The Cartel Who Wish To Control All (TCWWTCA), quite aside from the "I'll pay it later" aspects.
Sooooo many in this boat today.
Notes are made from a type of polymer. Cash is both notes and coins. I didn't neg your comment.
I use the card as often as possible for convenience and safety. Easier than fumbling around with notes and coins that just add weight, bulk and mess to my wallet.
With a card you can be a member of a rewards program as well as have interest free days so stick all your purchases on the card while your money is earning interest in the bank.
If others prefer to carry larger amounts of cash on them then I respect that, everyone has their own preference.
Notes are made from a type of polymer. Cash is both notes and coins.
I presume you brought this up to suggest that coins take lots of room and are annoying?
I use the card as often as possible for convenience and safety. Easier than fumbling around with notes and coins that just add weight, bulk and mess to my wallet.
Yes. Many do. I find the fumbling argument funny. People fumble to go to the ATM. People fumble with their plastic cards. People fumble putting their pin in. Lots of fumbling getting it out and sliding it in and signing. I don't see much difference. Taking away the signing won't change things much…
With a card you can be a member of a rewards program as well as have interest free days so stick all your purchases on the card while your money is earning interest in the bank.
When you lose your privacy and pay credit card surcharges in some stores, then you deserve all the rewards you can get. Rewards for profiles being built on your habits and every little thing you buy (and losing some bargaining power in some cases). Then you can get some rewards (with enough card usage). Interest in the bank is inconsequential with a few hundred dollars of cash being outside of the bank account. I don't think interest is a realistic argument; and we are getting less and less interest thanks to the current rates. I'd argue that having some money outside the banks does is give you a lot of freedom though. Not to mention freedom from any downtime that may present itself, particularly in our volatile financial system.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-23/government-gives-rba-o…
If others prefer to carry larger amounts of cash on them then I respect that, everyone has their own preference.
It really doesn't have to be large amounts. Even $1,000 in notes takes very little room. Any change you may get from any transaction won't result in much coins unless someone wants to punish you. You offload them at the next purchase. Carrying cash: non-issue.
I can't speak for others. This is my experience. I don't worry about getting robbed or losing cash in a fire. Maybe that's naive? I'm actually more worried of what might happen if it's all stored at the bank and a proverbial 'SHTF' situation presents itself and peoples accounts get locked out.
I presume you brought this up to suggest that coins take lots of room and are annoying?
Sorry that particular statement was supposed to be a reply to ethereal88.
I still use cash of course, you still need to carry some amount of cash these days for smaller purchases, a coffee for instance. I do my best to limit the number of coins that end up in my wallet at the end of the day, by offloading as you say. The problem with offloading is that it's just another inconvenience and time waster, and no matter how many times I offload I usually still end up with some heavy and fat coins in my wallet at the end of the day.
With contactless purchases the card never leaves your hand and there is no need to sign or enter a PIN, so there is very little room for fumbling. Also security is increased since the card doesn't leave your hand.
I find there are very few places I visit that have a surcharge on Mastercard and Visa transactions. If I believe I can get a better deal somewhere using cash, then I will use cash.
All the time I see notes go flying from women's handbags, coins being dropped by both cashiers and customers, the wrong change being given, people searching and scrounging through their wallets, bags and purses for the right change. Far more fumbling then a single card.
I don't buy into this idea of having substantial amounts of cash hidden somewhere. Ask any reasonable financial adviser and they'd say that's crazy.
"The problem with offloading is that it's just another inconvenience and time waster"
Dump them somewhere at home when you get there. An earth shattering few seconds. Besides you wouldn't have that many coins if you saved money instead of buying $4 coffees every day.
"With contactless purchases … . Also security is increased since the card doesn't leave your hand"
Just no, google it. Its far far from secure.
"I find there are very few places I visit that have a surcharge on Mastercard and Visa transactions"
Eh? So?
"I don't buy into this idea of having substantial amounts of cash hidden somewhere."
Keep telling yourself that. $100's exist for that reason. So do 500 euro notes.
Again, you conveniently ignore the privacy aspect. Everything plastic and online you do can be traced right back to you. Profiles have been built, purchases have been noted and your data has been onsold dozens of times. Cards are worthless. Stop being distracted by worthless rewards and look at the real issue. And that fumbling, pffft.
The problem with offloading is that it's just another inconvenience and time waster, and no matter how many times I offload I usually still end up with some heavy and fat coins in my wallet at the end of the day.
I don't think it's practical to avoid a few coins ending up in your wallet if you use cash. They can take more room & weight than a plastic card, that's true. I have never been bothered by this. I'm more concerned about financial institutions tracking every little purchase I make rather than having to carry a few coins. Take me off the spy grid.
I don't buy into this idea of having substantial amounts of cash hidden somewhere. Ask any reasonable financial adviser and they'd say that's crazy.
Again, doesn't need to be substantial. Can be if you want. Most financial advisers recommend that poeple to put money into things that make them the most money (ie. they are paid to make money off their clients). Holding your physical stash outside the system 'doing nothing' makes them no money. I don't need a financial adviser telling me where to put my cash. In fact, they are the last people I'd request advice from. Incidentally, if you have some financial adviser you can trust, that doesn't mean you can't do both: have some cash outside the system and some doing what (s)he tells you.
I guess it comes down to how much trust you have in our financial institutions and what they do with our data (and how many local stores charge credit card surcharges and how much that bothers you). Plus the potential loss of bargaining power in some stores when not using cash. Plus whether you feel safer not carrying cash and how much 'rewards' mean to you.
To me, the drawbacks of carrying plastic are worse than the gains.
Wow… Now I'm being judged on what I choose to spend my money on… apparently a $4 coffee everyday.
That's just juvenile. I enjoyed the conversation up to now but now I have to go. I'm not going to put up with that rubbish. Sorry cheepwun, it's not your doing, even if we disagree on a number of things.
Lucky I'm with HSBC :)