18+ Offers Should Not Be Posted on OzBargain

scotty on 23/03/2009 - 14:29

I have to make an executive decision that 18+ offers should not be posted on OzBargain — at least not until a proper age verification system has been implemented.

I have noticed that over the last couple of months more and more "18+ Only" offers have been posted OzBargain, most recently being the free PlayBoy archive. Normally we turn a blink eye on the offers that "walk on a fine line". Personally I do not like those offers and they are definitely not what OzBargain was created for. As a Christian and the owner of this site, the first thing I usually wanted to do is to delete those "bargains" — although I have let most slip through. OzBargain has been built on the understanding that one man's junk could be someone else's treasure so we do not delete offers simply because we do not like them.

However, it turns out a lot more people were offended by those 18+ only offers, and in some case I feel it is actually damaging OzBargain and its reputation. We have merchants offering exclusive discount on technology products and fashion accessories on OzBargain — and I do not think they will be happy to be on the same site that promote free PlayBoy archives. I have also received emails of other members condemning the posting of those offending offers — and I have no idea how many guest users have been turning away from OzBargain because we featured PlayBoy (and other adult-products in the past) on our front page.

Also remember — 80% of visitors to OzBargain are not log-in users. We don't know who they are, nor their age. Any offer posted are immediately visible to everyone. I do not wish to risk anything here to allow those 18+ only offer through. The only feasible way that I can see is to implement some kind of age verification, i.e. actually filling out your birthdate, agree on the terms that you might see "18+ only" offers, and then add an extra flag to those offers. It might be implemented here on OzBargain in the future. Meanwhile — feel free to start your own 18+ only bargain site.

As for now — no 18+ offer can be posted on OzBargain, and they will be pulled by the moderators. Please also vote -1 on those offers to notify the moderators so we can take care of them.

Regards,
Scott

Site Discussion

Comments

  • Gecko on 23/03/2009 - 14:44
    +1

    Glad to have some closure on it, sucks in part as the bargain itself did have the fastest rate of votes that I'd ever seen.

    • scotty on 23/03/2009 - 14:49
      +3

      Sure. I guess for those who like those bargains, freebie such as the one posted are great. But it does generate quite a bit of controversies. I think my aim for OzBargain is that it should be approachable by the general public. Apology to those who might feel disappointed.

  • [Deactivated] on 23/03/2009 - 15:28

    Agree - until a 18 plus bargain category that's only available to those who sign in for access is available, then this is the only way to go.

    But this view is nothing to do with my religious or non religious view on life, its just the most sensible and sensitive way to go on this.

    And OZb cant be all things to all people.

  • [Deactivated] on 23/03/2009 - 15:46

    Congratulations on being yet another person to give into a vocal minority.

    You can't censor this kind of stuff, Scotty.

    If I type Playboy in Google, does Google try and verify my age? No. Why is OzBargain different?

    The people voted, and you went against them.

    (Yes I realise that if I go to google it doesn't throw softcore porn links in my face, so there is a difference…but I still think there was nothing wrong with posting a link on here to some very softcore stuff).

    As for verifying someones age, it's not an realistic option, as under 18's will lie.

    • scotty on 23/03/2009 - 16:01
      +3

      As for verifying someones age, it?s not an realistic option, as under 18's will lie.

      I am more protecting OzBargain than protecting the minors when I talk about age verification. You guys proabably don't care whether OzBargain is here today but gone tomorrow, but I do :) I am pretty sure no one actually think the age verification system on the net is actually verifying someone's age — it's merely there so the websites can say "hey, I've tried and I'm not responsible!"

      As of your example of Google — guess who put the word "PlayBoy" in the search box in the first place? When you search for PlayBoy, Google is doing its job and find it for you. However, I am not sure how many actually expect PlayBoy when they come and visit OzBargain.

    • [Deactivated] on 23/03/2009 - 16:01

      Just a small point.

      You can't say people "voted" - this was a vote on the bargain - not on 18 plus deals.

      I never voted either way as it's not a deal I could vote on, as I cant tell you if its a bargain as its not something I have been interested in buying. No judgement or moralising on the post.

      And as some have, and some will, vote on the appropriateness, per se this is not really what the voting system is for.

      So without knowing why everyone voted its not really possible to come up with the conclusion you have.

      No comment on your other points - they are your opinions and as such, valid.

    • TCM on 23/03/2009 - 16:10
      +3

      Being that this is his site, I think he does have a choice in changing it if he feels uncomfortable seeing that content here and if people are not happy with it, they can go elsewhere. I think the exclusion is good for me as I check ozbargain daily and by working in the public service, it would be awkward if someone around me saw some of the deals that were on my screen, plus, it could be breaching some rules as well.

      • [Deactivated] on 23/03/2009 - 16:35
        +2

        "it would be awkward if someone around me saw some of the deals that were on my screen, plus, it could be breaching some rules as well."

        OK good point. Having an option in a user's setting to block deals marked 18+ would be a good option.

        I just don't think it should have been deleted for now. I first saw this free playboy thing posted on Digg.com, which is obviously a lot more mainstream than OzBargain, and we didn't see Digg remove it from the frontpage because Digg, like OzB, is a user generated list of links. The people voted, they liked, that's the whole point of the voting system, you don't get to then pick stuff off you don't agree with. I wouldn't expect that from Kevin Rose and I don't expect it from Scotty.

  • camelgrass on 23/03/2009 - 16:31
    +1

    Scotty wrote:

    "As a Christian and the owner of this site, the first thing I usually wanted to do is to delete those “bargains” — although I have let most slip through."

    What's being a Christian got to do with it? I agree with all your other rationale and I would probably do the same if I was in your shoes.

    Christian's aren't allowed near products classed as +18? News to me, from somebody who's also a Christian.

    By the way, what defines +18?

    • cacbm on 23/03/2009 - 16:41

      "By the way, what defines +18?"

      We can argue about minor details all we want but I think you'll recognise that something is 18+ when you see it.

    • scotty on 23/03/2009 - 16:42
      +1

      Christian's aren't allowed near products classed as +18? News to me, from somebody who's also a Christian.

      Well. I said "some", and I agree that not all 18+ are against what I believe.

      However take the "Free PlayBoy archive" offer for example. Pornograph themselves are demeaning female members of our society (yup, I believe you guys only read the essays in there). I won't do bible bashing here — use the contact forum if you want to discuss further.

      • [Deactivated] on 23/03/2009 - 18:10
        +1

        "(yup, I believe you guys only read the essays in there)."

        First off I'm gay so I, for one, wasn't going there for the free pron.

        Second, the magazines from the 60's etc were of tremendous historical and educational value, and reading old ads and essays was of genuine interest to me.

        Third, I didn't even see and tits or anything…but maybe I wasn't looking hard enough (ie the 70's and later).

  • Davo1111 on 23/03/2009 - 16:46

    fair enough, i don't personally like the idea - but i understand where you are coming from

  • QQQ - CatchOfTheDay on 23/03/2009 - 17:39
    +1

    Sometimes you need to have your own kids to understand the necessity.

    Perhaps in future members may record their date of birth in login profile, and these offers may only be visible to adults of appropriate age who are logged in.

    Tough call Scotty, but I think you made the right one.

  • chloden on 23/03/2009 - 18:46
    +1

    Thankyou for making this decision.

  • Megan on 23/03/2009 - 19:40
    +2

    Thank you for the decision Scotty. Today I feel comfortable logging into the site again. I don't mind 18+ stuff being posted but I would prefer some warning though before it is "in my face".

    I used to have this site open all day every day and would check back to it numerous times, often I would leave the window showing on the screen.

    I have customers who can see my screen, young children are in and out and some things I just don't feel comfortable with.

    I will now add the site back into my Morning Group of tabs to open with my coffee.

    • Gecko on 23/03/2009 - 20:15

      Your comment annoys me on so many, many levels.

      If you have ozbargain open while a customer is watching your screen, you could have other things to watch out for. Any child under 14 wont even know what playboy is, and any over the age of 14 wont even be inquisitive enough to bother reading your screen (And neither should customers, especially if they're reading your page as in depth as the new deals section).

      There's been what, 3 deals that I can recall that suggest 18+ content, you removed ozbargain from your 'morning group' because these deals were around?

      • Megan on 23/03/2009 - 20:31

        "you could have other things to watch out for." I'm not sure I understand what you are referring to?

        "Any child under 14 wont even know what playboy is, and any over the age of 14 wont even be inquisitive enough to bother reading your screen" I believe that is a very generalised statement. My personal feeling, for various reasons, is not to take the chance at all.

        I no longer felt comfortable with this site due to various comments made on those three deals and where I thought the site was heading ie. more and more similar deals advertised. If that was the case I no longer wished to visit and looked for other similar sites. That was my choice, just as coming back is also my choice as decisions have been made.

        It's all about being given the choice before it's there in front of you and that choice is taken away.

        • Gecko on 23/03/2009 - 20:43

          Yet can you understand how everyone else feels?

          This decision is being made against the voting majority (considering there was 75+ positive votes and only 2 negative votes on the last deal posted), and while it is scotty's site, it is a very heavy handed approach when there is a small minority speaking out against an overwhelming majority that thought the content wasn't specifically offensive.

          • Megan on 23/03/2009 - 20:57

            @Gecko: I don't believe that is an accurate assessment of the site memberships feelings. I don't believe I was the only one to step away from that first discussion. It did get quite nasty IMO. I didn't vote on any of the other ones as I stopped logging in. I didn't even see the Playboy one as I only visited infrequently after that. How many others did not vote or state their opinion against them due to what happened with that first one?

            I respect anyone's right to state their opinion and do enjoy a debate but some of the attitudes and comments was not what I would call a debate. Again, my opinion and let me say that I also do respect yours.

            • Gecko on 23/03/2009 - 21:06
              +3

              @Megan: And with 3 children myself, I completely understand and respect your own opinions.

              I was the one that submitted the playboy article, and I tagged it in all the correct places, making sure the image it grabbed did not violate the (then current) site's position - it didn't contain nudity or any explicit subject matter.

              I'd love to see included on the site an opt-out system for logged in users (users not logged in would NOT be able to see the 18+ deals) that has specific categories on the sign in page, for example:

              Would you like to opt-out of the following bargains?
              [ ] Nudity
              [ ] Alcohol
              [ ] Gambling

              And while gambling bargains are a big grey area (do we want to help people waste their money?), having this feature could provide a middle ground that could satisfy all users.

              • Megan on 23/03/2009 - 21:18
                -1

                @Gecko: I do see what you, and others, are saying. Where do we draw the line? Which society values do we uphold or how far do we push them? A long and detailed debate with those questions :)

                From what you have said it sounds like you have tried to list the Playboy deal with an amount of responsibility and respect for others using the site. Sadly, not all will do so. Although we have the Voting feature to squash anyone not acting responsibly sometimes they will not be taken down quickly enough before the damage is done.

                This is where I believe it is entirely up to the site owner to decide what is on his site. I would respect his decision whatever it is. It is then up to each individual to decide if it is a site they wish to be a member of.

                I would be comfortable with a seperate section for "Adults Only". I could then just not click on it. An opt-in or out option is also a good idea, not sure how much work that is though. Myself, I like the KISS principle.

              • jashjash on 23/03/2009 - 23:19

                @Gecko: Instead of opt-out, it should be an opt-in process. You sign up and opt in.

                The default view should have normal bargains, but if you want the Nudity, Alcohol, and Gamlbing and Adult products, I believe if Scotty is ever going to go down this road, it should be opt-in so by default you can't see it.

                Online art sites do this, so that things are screened for default users.

                See www.deviantart.com for an example.

  • jashjash on 23/03/2009 - 19:51
    -1

    Good on you Scotty.

    This site is safe for work again.

  • rawm on 23/03/2009 - 20:49

    I agree with the posters regarding having the screen up at work - i was constantly scrolling the 18+ section out. I think in future possibly placing an 18+ section or flagging is the only possible alternative.

    Scotty, you've got my + vote on this one!

  • adam on 23/03/2009 - 21:35

    Good move Scotty - congrats!

    I made the first -ve vote on the playboy deal & then, shortly after, went to bed - came back tonight to find its been removed - wish I could've seen the discussion that ensued :-)

  • [Deactivated] on 23/03/2009 - 21:52
    +1

    Just to reiterate - the votes on these posts cannot be construed as being pro or against mature subject matter on the site.

    Some were obviously just that, but others cant be determined. If we go down that track then people will not vote on bargains but on content. To do so just destroys the true value of the bargains.

    So argue your points for and against but dont take the voting out of context to back up your own moral judgement on the rights or wrongs of this decision.

    To everyone - for or against - if this site offers bargain insights then its of value. If I do or dont agree with Scott on this issue, I can accept that this has been his creation and his effort. As such since he has decided not to allow these postings, then so be it. If i want to find bargains I'll still visit.

    Its ironic since the first mature "content" was posted there has been such immature reactions. No one started a forum topic to discuss the issue, they just flamed each other in the bargain posting.

  • skinny on 23/03/2009 - 21:54

    Commonsense has previled - Very good move

  • Noslee on 23/03/2009 - 23:31

    ALL support to you Scotty! You've made the right decision!

  • Davo1111 on 24/03/2009 - 00:11
    +4

    it would be interesting to see the results of a proper poll on the homepage.

  • bobsi18 on 24/03/2009 - 08:40

    I'm in agreeance with Scotty - to begin with, at the end of the day, this is his site, and it's (as far as I know) his name/reputation on the line - therefore it's his decision about what type of content should and shouldn't be shown.

    True, the site is defined as a "bargain" site, but there have always been rules about what was suitable for the site, regardless of it is indeed a bargain. Gecko mentioned that he checked that the submission didn't violate the rules of the time (no nudity etc) - Scotty has decided to increase these rules, and that's his prerogative.

    On a personal level, I'm happy to see the end of these type of deals - they obviously have a place, and some of them have indeed been good bargains, however they are not what I envisioned ozbargain to be about - ozbargain is a site that I regularly recommend to friends and family, many of whom would find that kind of content unsuitable. If it continued to be shown on the front pages, I would stop recommending it, and whilst I know that is my decision - if too many people do that, it could become a downhill spiral for ozbargain.

    As I said, I think some of these deals did have merit, I just don't think this is the right place for them to be shown. An opt-in, signed-in section, or even a new site, seems to be a better option to me.

  • Noslee on 24/03/2009 - 09:53

    Like I commented before in the Playboy post, when they are new and rare, people found it precious. When adult dealers are attracted to become regulars and post daily on the front page, If every 2nd post were 18+, I guess you can only ignore so much.

    I think there are too many personal attack and abuse to members who comment constructively against the adult material. Being ones who cares about this site, set examples can be seen throughout this forum topic, where certain demographic and religious believes are classified 'minority' and are constantly being questioned.

  • captainc on 24/03/2009 - 09:55

    I'm sorry to say that I for one will be looking for another discount site from now on. I respect your decision to censor material from what is in fact your own website, and I certainly do agree that adult material should be not be immediately available to everyone. However the rest of the internet allows me to make the decision of what I can view and when, and frankly I would rather be the one making that decision than put it in the hands of 'someone who knows best'.

    For what it's worth, I think an age verification system would be totally redundant. Any kid that's desperate to get his hands on adult material won't be making this site his first point of call, even if he is looking to save a few bucks.

    If this website is a personal extension of yourself and your belief system, then fair enough but clearly state that on the front page (maybe call it christianbargain.com.au). I was always under the distinct impression that this site provided unfiltered user generated content. I'm sure Senator Conroy is rubbing his hands with glee as we speak.

  • scotty on 24/03/2009 - 10:30
    +2

    Hi guys — while personally I do not support those offers, the way moving forward would be what jashjash has stated — it would be an opt-in rather than opt-out process for 18+ offers. Or maybe sitting on a completely different site. I agree that instead of age verification with birthdate, it would just be a single tick saying "Yes I am over 18 years old and I want to see 18+ offers". It will be implemented in the future, but just like many other features in the Feature Requests thread, it would be prioritised and there will be no ETA.

    A few other comments on the discussion so far:

    • Thanks for the support.

    • "This decision is being made against the voting majority" # — as ozpete has also commented, yes it has got many votes but it's definitely not the voting majority. The very fact that there are constantly 10x more guest visitors than login users shows that the voting ones ARE NOT the majority.

    • "the rest of the internet allows me to make the decision of what I can view and when" # — exactly. I am glad that you don't feel offended by some of the content and know how to turn the filters on and off. However, the majority of Internet users don't. That's why it would be an opt-in process in the future. I definitely want OzBargain to be work-place safe, and 50% of our visitors come from search engines — what would they think if they search for cheap price of a certain product and then land on a page advertising free soft-porn? People would have no choice in that scenario.

    As I have already said, while my personal belief is against those offers, it was not the basis of this decision. OzBargain should be approachable by general public, safe for work, and something you don't have to worry about leaving on your computer screen unattended. With those in mind, sorry some of the offers have to go.

    • Zero Sydney on 24/06/2009 - 08:36

      "what would they think if they search for cheap price of a certain product and then land on a page advertising free soft-porn?" The ban by you on 18+ deals doesn't state porn, just 18+, so that means no gambling/gaming deals nor any ones based on alcohol (as both are only legally accessable to people 18+ (at least in NSW). I think smoking is for only people 18+ also.

      If you only want porn/adult services banned then just state that otherwise ALL 18+ only deals should be banned (which is how I read it to be anyway).

  • John on 24/03/2009 - 14:42
    +2

    GOOD ON YA SCOTTY!

    I'm fully supportive to this idea. Not because I disagree with porn bargains, but more to the reputation of OzBargain. Non-general things (eg. 18+) should be kept non-general. Not everyone likes it.

    Until there is a filter in place, I believe this is the right and most fair decision. :)

    Cheers

  • insanityrules on 24/03/2009 - 16:24

    i never even saw the 18+ posts and i wouldnt have bothered to look at them if i had. Saying that the majority didn't vote against them is inaccurate. In fact, the majority didnt vote at all.
    An opt in option for this content is the way to go, with it unavailable for anyone not logged in.
    It will be impossible to prevent minors from seeing them, as you can give your age as anything you like when you sign up, but there is a responsibility to prevent the accidental viewing of these posts by minors viewing the site and not making a conscious decision to view them.

  • RockSteady on 24/03/2009 - 22:26

    It's hard to combat the argument that the owner of the site can decide what goes on it. I totally support that. While I am sure Scotty can make a heap of advertising dollars and such from featuring adult content, it may scare off other advertisers or users, and that's just bad business..

    Having said that, none of the bargains listed were for products against the law, and they obviously appeal to some people, so the opt in model suggested seems the most intelligent option available.

    Commenter's above have the right idea - prevent accidental exposure to the adult stuff. Trying to achieve anything else would be a waste of time and resources.

  • sash213 on 24/03/2009 - 23:21

    +1 from me Scotty

  • ESEMCE on 25/03/2009 - 12:17
    +2

    Hi Scotty, I think you've done the wrong thing in the right mindset.

    It will be the right thing in the right mindset when 18+ bargains are accepted back on OzBargain with an "age-verification".

    I think it was wrong of you to mention your Christianity especially if you truly plan to introduce the age verification scheme. I think mentioning it muddies the waters as to your true intentions.

    I'm not a Christian, or a believer in any higher power, but I agree with your desire to protect the site.
    I'd hate to see OzBargain tagged as pornographic on OpenDNS for example!

    • [Deactivated] on 25/03/2009 - 20:39
      +1

      While Scotty was trying to indicate, that he personally didn't like the post partly because of his religious beliefs, he din't ban it until he looked at the other implications.

      But I totally agree with you, that mentioning this really muddied the waters. Often one word triggers a reaction, and religion often is one of those. There is many an ex-politician who rues the use of a word or two.

      As the saying goes "if it doesnt add, it detracts"

      • scotty on 29/03/2009 - 23:07

        As the saying goes “if it doesnt add, it detracts”

        Alright. I apologise that my exercise of personal opinion based on my religious belief has added negative effect into this discussion.

  • jong on 29/03/2009 - 22:38

    Sorry I'm late to the party; this only came up in a search.

    Can I suggest, Scotty, that you change your policy to "Not Safe For Work" or something similar? Otherwise you risk cutting out cheap credit card/alcohol/mortgage/car rental/hotel/cinema deals, that can only be used by adults.

    Also, I think you should add it to the "Submit bargain" guidelines.

    • scotty on 29/03/2009 - 23:12

      Something that's not safe for work might not be safe at home either — depending on who is looking at the screen.

      It all comes down to defining what's an inappropriate content. Some things can only be used by adults (like credit card offers) but most will agree that it would be relatively safe to expose a minor there. On the other hand, free pornography offers… Hmm.

      I never studied media before so I have no idea. I do wonder how the rating system work on TV/in movies, and what their criterias are.

  • AntMan76 on 29/03/2009 - 23:19

    Easy. If it involves nudity and Big Brother contestants, then it will get banned.

    If its an ad for "babes getting down and dirty" which can be sent to your mobile phone (with moaning noises to boot) then its ok.

    People have the choice to watch/do whatever they choose, as much as people also have the same right to choose NOT to watch/do.

    I don't agree with the rule based purely on "adult" material, however from the point of view of sponsors etc of the site, then I agree it's a real consideration to be made. It should be clickable or selectable as to whether you wish to be provided with access to such deals.

  • Bluejay on 01/04/2009 - 21:56

    I don't know if this was previously mentioned, nor do I know if this comment will fall on deaf ears, but would it be possible to make all 18+ offers require a certain tag, and offers with that tag will only appear to logged in users who are 18 years or older?

  • Zero Sydney on 24/06/2009 - 08:28

    Should the following deal be banned:
    $5 Free Credit for Ozlotteries Account (http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/13907#comment-74818)?

    See my comment in that deal.

  • SomeGuyOnOzB on 25/06/2009 - 13:34

    My two cents:

    (a) Hi Scotty, it'd probably go smoother to stop at "I don't feel comfortable with this", rather than mentioning why :) There are oh so many reasons to be comfortable or uncomfortable with some types of offer.

    (b) A second site for "adult only" type deals would have many advantages over implementing switches and categories on this site

    (i) Save time coding; you can replicate the code from this site to that one without making extensive changes

    (ii) Reduce user error where, say, people have not marked a bargain with the appropriate restriction category

    (iii) Reduce moderation effort - flat out certain efforts can be unpublished on sight by the moderators, perhaps just advising the poster of the second site's address (this could even be automated into the unpublish action later, based on reason for unpublishing)

    (iv) Keep this site off more firewall blacklists, and web filtering lists - makes it easier to post deals and this site to friends and colleagues at work, so they can take advantage of deals near them today; allows more business, government and other workers to access this site during coffee or lunch break if they are still allowed access to it

    (v) not sure what's going on with that proposed government filtering list … if one site gets banned, hopefully it won't be this one

    (vi) Scotty can hand over communications on the other site to other people; allowing him to focus on this site's communications and the code that goes into both, etc.

    end of comments

  • WingedNike on 20/09/2009 - 12:52

    Kudos to scotty for not auto-banning anything he doesn't agree with. Nice to see reasonable Christians for a change.
    I'll be opting in to the 18+ category.

    I'm all for protecting oz-bargain. But let's get it going quickly so we can find bargains on sexpo ;)

  • Japius on 12/09/2016 - 07:20

    Any movement on this yet? Opt-In/Opt-out etc? Anyone created a bargain site for these things or know of one?

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