eBay/PayPal - buyers, don't count on being covered in a bad transaction

bobjane on 27/06/2013 - 20:23

I bought a piece of video game memorabilia on eBay and it turned out to be fake. The seller (a bricks and mortar business selling video game/anime related goods based in the UK) admitted in eBay messaging that all his items are counterfeits. Screenshot:
http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/4751/g84g.jpg

Paypal "ruled" in my favour. I use the quotes because the ruling was made within 5 seconds of me clicking the submit button.

Paypal's automated claim process forces you to send back the item via tracked shipping before they will process the refund. In this case Pack and Track to the UK would cost more than the disputed amount. From the seller's response I think it's clear that they are aware of and are indeed counting on exactly this.

Despite the seller admitting to selling nothing but fakes via eBay messaging (which eBay can look at if they choose to do so, ha!), all further attempts to raise the issue with eBay and Paypal have been met by automated stonewalling.

TL;DR if you get screwed via eBay and/or Paypal and the seller even admits to selling fake goods (despite eBay policy, ha again!). Best case scenario you're out return postage. Otherwise you get nothing.

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Comments

  • ozhunter on 27/06/2013 - 20:38
    -3

    It's ebay, never assume the item is genuine unless it is clearly described as being genuine. Return shipping is almost always at the buyer's expense. Even when purchasing from a b&m store, returning it is at the buyer's expense(time/petrol).

    • bobjane on 27/06/2013 - 20:52
      +4

      You know, it's precisely people with this mentality that allows people selling fakes on eBay to thrive.

      It's ebay, never assume the item is genuine unless it is clearly described as being genuine

      It's against eBay policy to sell fake goods but they don't enforce it because it will hurt their bottom line. Neither will they actually "protect" the buyer which they claim to do at every possible opportunity. The whole point of my post which you missed.

      Return shipping is almost always at the buyer's expense.

      This is what you would call a policy. Why should it be adhered to when you have obviously disregarded the preceding policy of not allowing fake goods in the first place.

      • ozhunter on 27/06/2013 - 22:32
        +2

        You know, it's precisely people with this mentality that allows people selling fakes on eBay to thrive.

        It's because it is well known that ebay is full of fake items which is why people have this mentality.

        • bobjane on 27/06/2013 - 23:21
          +3

          Again, you somehow fail to miss the point.

          Here on Ozbargain you see comments like "pay with Paypal and you'll be covered" all the time. My post is here to raise awareness so people don't rely 100% on Paypal to cover their asses.

          Please tell me what your "ebay is full of fakes, deal with it" achieves. Should we all boycott ebay or something?

        • ozhunter on 27/06/2013 - 23:40

          I'm saying ebay has many fake items for a long time now, so don't assume everything you buy on there is genuine.

          The downside of buying online is having to pay postage to return the item back for whatever reason. The seller never said it was geniune.

          Here on Ozbargain you see comments like "pay with Paypal and you'll be covered

          It's always known to be the price of the product, excluding the cost of shipping.

          Should we all boycott ebay or something?

          Nope, just be cautious from who/where you buy.

        • kirasuran on 28/06/2013 - 09:54
          +4

          All of both your points are valid however:

          ozhunter's points are more relevant in this situation because we as consumers, individually are doing the buying - and therefore must take into account all the fakes, policies etc. Sure, it's ebay's fault they're allowing this, so you should really be taking the issue up with them. But ozhunter's advice is pure buyer knowledge.

          and i'm speaking from experience, having been scammed on ebay as well

        • abh_gup on 29/06/2013 - 22:13
          +1

          Legal term - Caveat Emptor

          Under the principle of caveat emptor, the buyer could not recover damages from the seller for defects on the property that rendered the property unfit for ordinary purposes. The only exception was if the seller actively concealed latent defects or otherwise made material misrepresentations amounting to fraud.

          Before statutory law, the buyer had no express warranty ensuring the quality of goods. Common law requires that goods must be "fit for the particular purpose" and of "merchantable quality"[citation needed], but this implied warranty can be difficult to enforce and may not apply to all products. Hence, buyers are still advised to be cautious.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caveat_emptor

          None the less, I believe ethics on part of the seller should be enforced. Australia consumer rights include guidelines regarding this. However, it's not always enforceable…

  • Paul Atreides on 27/06/2013 - 21:23

    yep, happened to me to. seller from UK sells me a part for my car, doesn't fit.

    same thing happened when i opened paypal dispute, send it back to the vendor.

    copped it on the chin, modified it to fit so it wasnt a total waste

  • Taita on 27/06/2013 - 22:19
    +3

    I bought a northface jacket off ebay. turned out to be fake. Paypal said to return item to seller. seller refused to pay return postage for it. I disputed with paypal that why should I be responsible for paying to return a fake item. They agreed and I got refund without returning the item. I ended up throwing it in the bin.

    • bobjane on 27/06/2013 - 23:35
      +3

      I'm guessing either you called them or this was a while ago.

      The online claim process has changed such that as soon as Paypal "rules" in your favour, you ONLY have the following options:
      A) Submit tracking number for the return postage, or
      B) Cancel the claim.
      No further commenting, nothing else.

      Note: I keep putting "ruled" in quotes because these decisions are always made the instant you hit submit. An automated script is making the decision, not a person.

      • hahaboy on 28/06/2013 - 13:40
        +2

        Can you put up a fake tracking number?

        If it is all automated, then it should still continue to process the whole transaction and you getting your money back.

        • MarkB4 on 28/06/2013 - 14:20
          +5

          Send an empty envelope? A scammer deserves to be scammed …

        • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 29/06/2013 - 15:03
          +1

          I have done this twice successfully when I've been scammed. Nothing the original seller can do about it.

        • pmupsinep on 29/06/2013 - 17:10

          You used a fake tracking number or you sent an empty envelope??

        • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 29/06/2013 - 17:52
          +4

          Empty envelope sent with registered post

      • Taita on 03/07/2013 - 12:58

        you are right bobjane, I had called them.
        will keep in mind this the next time something like this happens.

  • [Deactivated] on 27/06/2013 - 22:57

    You fared well. Congratulations.

    I think eBay acted, at least to a degree, and at least for a while, to stop the sale of fake memory cards on the site, but probably only because it was getting wide coverage elsewhere and tainting the site generally. Same thing happened previously with the extensive publicity over the thriving fake designer goods sellers.

    I learned my own lesson early in my eBay experience when I bought a supposedly genuine (1 only available) 'limited edition' promo remix cd, only to have a sinking feeling when the item was re-listed before I'd received it.
    Sure enough, I received a burned copy on very cheap media. Visited the seller's eBay store only to discover a well established ongoing scam involving multiple different promo discs, and no indication of sanction at any point by eBay.

    As always, online or elsewhere, it's buyer beware. When things do go awry, and relative to outlay, you weigh up the general grief and potential time involved of pursuing it beyond a certain point.

    Sometimes you rally the bees in your bonnet, sometimes you let it slide…

  • Forfiet on 27/06/2013 - 23:12
    +4

    If you go back to paypal and argue the counterfeit route, tell them Australian Law (and no doubt others) prohibits sending 'counterfeit' items through the mail. Maybe also add that you may forward their response on them 'telling you to send it' to the financial ombudsman(I say this because I believe they come under a sudo-bank institution under our laws.).

    P.S had a check here is a link about complaints to financial ombudsman: https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full#…
    good luck and keep us informed.

    • kirasuran on 28/06/2013 - 09:51
      +1

      what's a sudo bank? Pseudo?

      • Forfiet on 28/06/2013 - 15:56
        +2

        the Sudo Branch of Fuji Shinkin Bank of course, what else could I have meant :P

    • maximum on 28/06/2013 - 20:41
      +2

      I did all this spoke to PayPal had emails from other buyers whose items had been destroyed by customs as fakes and still ended up not getting my money back. I would now say I didn't receive the item. I think it is important to post about this because PayPal and eBay both say they are working against fakes but dont take any action about it.

  • bobjane on 27/06/2013 - 23:29
    +13

    I ended up calling Paypal. 1800-073-263 6am to 10pm Monday to Saturday. The lady on the phone agreed to close the claim and credit my account without having to return the item. It was processed as a credit rather than a refund though. So the seller got to keep the money and his listings for fake items are still running.

    Although I did get my money back, I'm not convinced Paypal will always do the right thing. Especially if the monetary figure was large.

    Lesson for me - dealing with Paypal via internet, you will never get a live person. Call them instead.

    • Forfiet on 27/06/2013 - 23:34
      +1

      thats good to hear. :)

    • Geewhizz on 28/06/2013 - 06:02
      +1

      The lady on the phone agreed to close the claim and credit my account without having to return the item. It was processed as a credit rather than a refund though.

      Are you saying you got a credit to your paypal account, or a credit with the merchant?

      • bobjane on 28/06/2013 - 16:33
        +2

        Credit to my Paypal account.

        • Geewhizz on 29/06/2013 - 06:51
          +1

          Ah! That would simply be because you funded the payment with something other than a credit card. That's just the way PayPal works.

          If you use a visa debit card, and select credit card as your funding option, refunds are credited straight back to the bank account rather than the PayPal account, so it's almost instant rather than having to wait up to 7 days for funds to be transferred from your paypal account to a bank account.

        • kwaker on 29/06/2013 - 10:16

          Its not a refund its a credit "good will"

    • BhanuL on 28/06/2013 - 10:54

      Well done, we do a bit of selling of flooring products on ebay / paypal as well as being a customer. Either way, unless you call them, they hardly ever respond to emails. Its amazing they get away with this kind of service level.

      They are ok if you call them though, I actually dont mind them as a big company, they seem to be fair to both buyers and sellers. In your case and in most I dont think they should tolerate any type of counterfeit selling, it really does reduce their credibility.

      But most of the time, by the time they get down to actually removing countefeit products the sellers stock is already run out probably. And no punishment for sellers account from selling fakes, which I dont see how they get away with.

  • hsk on 28/06/2013 - 07:25

    I do not know much about ebay, but have heard of people saying item not received, so what about saying not received if it is a fake… can you do that?? Then I think you get your money back?? correct me if I am wrong..

    • Hoju on 28/06/2013 - 08:17

      That's an interesting idea - so rather than dispute the quality of the item, if you open it and it's not as described, then just say it never arrived.
      Probably the wise way to go.

      I had a similar thing with a $35 tap from Taiwan coming as the wrong colour and I was expected to return it and pay the shipping, obviously ridiculously high with tracking from Aus. A phone call to PayPal produced a partial refund and I managed to sell the tap on to cover the rest of the costs.

      • Geewhizz on 29/06/2013 - 06:56

        so what about saying not received if it is a fake… can you do that?

        Probably the wise way to go.

        It's also fraudulent.

        Calling PayPal is actually fairly pain-free (no long queues in my experience) and you'll avoid having to return the item, simply by stating that it's illegal to mail fake items, as already mentioned above.

    • tf323 on 28/06/2013 - 09:18
      +1

      This will prevent the need to return the fake product but the risk is that they send a replacement.

      • AmericanDad on 28/06/2013 - 10:26
        +2

        Hmm.. How about
        Option 1 - Item never arrived - if replacement, dispute its a fake; if refund, happy days!
        Option 2 - Item received but fake - call up paypal disputing to have to pay for return fees. Its easy to get through to paypal called them a few times only on hold for 3-5 mins max.

        Good luck!!

        • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 29/06/2013 - 17:54

          Won't work. If sender sent with a registered method you will never win a "did not arrive" dispute with paypal

    • noz on 01/07/2013 - 10:22

      An issue with this is that you do risk screwing over an honest seller. I am sure there are sellers out there that will refund your money (without requiring it to be returned) if you the product isn't what you intended it to be. I have found in my personal experience sellers will bend over backwards on eBay to keep you happy as they don't want the negative feedback.

  • kwaker on 28/06/2013 - 09:36
    -1

    Paypal.com.au? Or paypal.com?

    It does depend on which one you use as australia has consumer protection laws. I do not believe that paypal has a right in all cases to demand the consumer pays return. Lodge with financial ombudsman see what happens.

  • outlander on 28/06/2013 - 10:33

    There was a news piece in the UK where someone had bought a Stradivarius, and was either misinformed or just had buyers remorse, but they opened up a paypal dispute on the grounds of it being counterfeit.

    The paypal agent instructed her to destroy it rather than send it back in the post, and post the pictures. Not a good day for violin enthusiasts.

    So whatevevr policy they claim to have, its largely a case by case basis. Just push a little more

    • mooboy on 28/06/2013 - 11:47
      +1

      I think you mean this one: http://www.regretsy.com/2012/01/03/from-the-mailbag-27/

      I was reminded of it when I read this post too. I don't think anyone has ever sold a Stradivarius through ebay though :)

      • Forfiet on 28/06/2013 - 15:58

        yeah I remember that, funny stuff.

        • Macgyver on 29/06/2013 - 17:50

          That's terrible.

        • Forfiet on 01/07/2013 - 19:11

          "Here tryin to remember a episode of Macgyver with a Stradivarius in it…..was it "The Lost Amadeus" s05ep18" Your an expert, I bow to your mighty swiss army knife :)

  • Repi on 28/06/2013 - 18:41

    Happened to me a while ago, computer bought from Australian seller never arrived. PayPal stuffed around for ages, mainly with automated messages. Fair Trading investigated, agreed there was some kind of Fraud going on but couldn't act on it. Eventually got a charge back from my Credit card provider. Was lucky and learnt my lesson.

  • easternculture on 28/06/2013 - 23:50
    +1

    With paypal, the only way would would get your refund without any hassle is using "item not recieved" dispute, as long as the buyer sends you the item without tracking

    All the other disputes in getting your money back is a headache

  • The Gent on 29/06/2013 - 01:01

    Are they illegal fakes though? Or replicas made under licence?

    That distinction is quite important.

    Also, return postage is pretty standard with this stuff. It's nice of them to offer to pay the postage to you - try claiming that back when purchasing from DSE or wherever else - I have never known them to offer or accept to pay any shipping.

    • Geewhizz on 29/06/2013 - 07:10

      Except that DSE doesn't generally sell fakes, trying to pass them off as genuine.

      • The Gent on 29/06/2013 - 12:24

        Can you prove they're illegal fakes was my very first point, which you glossed over.

  • dragon7 on 29/06/2013 - 09:56
    -1

    yes, item not received FTW, dodgy sellers deserve it!

  • Moondog on 29/06/2013 - 11:14

    Same issue, PC remote missing the receiver, return with tracking will cost more than the item cost me. They stuffed me around too promising they had resent it until the Ebay feedback window had closed.

  • ramb9 on 29/06/2013 - 11:40

    I think Paypal since has changed their policies?

    I ruled memory cards ipurchased are fake because they didn't come with original packaging and as per ebay,guidelines on,fake memory cards, if the lock dont work, they are probably all fake… payypal said to me 'you must provide professional documentation from a non-bias 3rd party source or professional in the field that is signed off and dated' in order to prove the items are fake.

    Seriously, who would do this for you out of good will procided you disnt purchase from them or you have no relations to them at all?

    Then my case was closed and says I didnt provide documentation in a timely manner. I gave the idiots a call and they idiot over the phone just kept repeating ^that line.

    F* en paypal

  • Soybeanus on 29/06/2013 - 17:43

    Blows my mind that someone who only sells fake goods could have such 'positive' feedback!

  • nicksinternet on 29/06/2013 - 18:11

    Why did you black out the seller? out the bastard.

    I'm currently getting screwed right now by "BarkGuard Australia" ebay user "barkguard" in WA.

    I bought an anti bark spray collar (humane) for my dog and it was rubbish (was spraying my poor pooch with citronella even when not barking). I've had the multi-vet collar for the last 3 years and it seems to be the benchmark, but I wanted to try BarkGuard as they claim it is made locally. So I was trying to support Aussie (now seeing how the seller is unscrupulous I've no doubt it is imported from Asia).

    Anyway… I returned it with tracking to the sellers PO box and he is claiming he never received it. Looking at his feedback he has done this before.

    Interestingly as soon as I said I had returned it, he wrote back "did you send it with signature on receipt for proof of delivery" knowing full well that I hadn't. In any case he would have a hard time proving that an item with tracking sent to a locked PO Box was not received.

    I believe all I have to do is send it with tracking?

    • netsurfer on 29/06/2013 - 21:43

      Nasty seller. Does the tracking shows it has been delivered to the local post office?

      To be safe, unfortunately, under the paypal rules, you need to send registered post. However, I am not sure whether click and send is sufficient. Basically, with registered post, you get a docket with the actual address and a post office stamp, so assuming the address is correct, there is no dispute you sent it. Click and send + tracking that you sent it (i.e. you went to a post office and it is scanned/processed there), (I am hoping) would achieve the same result - since there is an electronic record of the address in the system.

      Item not as described is hard for buyers to win. It is up to the buyer to prove the item is not as described and ensure the item is sent back to the seller.

    • Geewhizz on 02/07/2013 - 06:21

      I believe all I have to do is send it with tracking?

      No, it needs to be tracking WITH A SIGNATURE.

      As an aside, I discovered (in the process of having to return the incorrect phone that DWI intentionally sent) that Express satchels are not necessarily scanned at their point of origin, and in theory only HAVE to be scanned at the delivery end. So much for 'tracking.' My item never actually even got scanned at that point, and didn't exist at all in the Aust Post system. Fortunately when it came down to having to make a PayPal claim I did have an email from them suggesting that they'd received it, because they told PayPal that they had not. Prior to this incident I'd never had an article that wasn't showing in the system from start to finish, but I did ask at the distribution centre whether what I'd been told was correct and they confirmed it.

      I was advised by the post office here, rather than drop express satchels in the yellow box, to had it over the counter and request that it be scanned in. Some post offices do do it as routine, but others don't, and don't have to, so it's best to ask.

  • netsurfer on 29/06/2013 - 21:38

    As a buyer, it is important to remember, deep down, paypal takes commission from the sellers. Therefore, while they do try to make it fair for everyone, they will be slightly bias towards the sellers.

    For the buyers, the rules are:

    • Item not received, and seller cannot prove the item has been delivered to you, you will get your money back, no question about that one.
    • Item received, but not as described. If the seller wants to be really nasty, OR the item is not cheap, the seller would normally ask you to send it back. In that case, it is best that you send the item back to the seller with a postal service including proper tracking ID + proof of postage. It is actually the latter one that's important (basically, a registered post) —> something that has the actual address + a stamp on it OR a postage provider whom provides a proof of delivery.
  • dragon7 on 30/06/2013 - 09:32

    note that registered post has been discontinued by AUpost for parcel, the replacement service is now signature on delivery but they won't give you any proof of lodgement with delivery address and postal stamp.
    So i'm not sure how Paypal's gonnna deal with disputes from now on.

  • lplau on 30/06/2013 - 22:25

    You can respond to Paypal, as there is sufficient proof that it is a counterfeit product.

    Australia Post and Australian Law prohibits mailing of counterfeit products. Which means if they require you to send it back to get your money back, it means they will be an accessory to the crime, hence they can also be charged under Australian Law.

    Although pretending you never received it, is unethical, however sending a counterfeit product is also unethical, so technically speaking you can relieve your conscience by telling yourself: "Since I was supposed to get X product, however I got Y product, therefore I never received the item."

    So if they send you something which is fake, and has no tracking number on it, therefore you NEVER received it.

    Worse comes to worse, do a chargeback and deal with your credit card company, as they will be more willing to listen to your arguments and help you out. Sucks to be the seller too, because if you win they will get like $20 fee from the chargeback.

    • Aceboy884 on 01/07/2013 - 08:32

      ANZ merchants don't charge chargeback fees

      We gave nab the book because of this ridiculous policy

      $20 chargeback for a $15 dispute.

      • lplau on 01/07/2013 - 08:56

        Chargeback on paypal, forwards the fees to paypal, then who ever loses has to pay the fees.

        So a $20 fee can pawn the retailer. lol. Either way its a double edge sword. If you know you will win, then do it, if you know there is a chance you will lose, then don't do it. haha

  • LadyCocoa1234 on 30/06/2013 - 23:32

    The same thing happened to me a few days ago (well similar). The product that I bought from ebay didn't work and paypal ruled in my favour - only problem was shipping + packaging costs were more than the half the cost of the product I bought. It's an outrage as it was not even my fault that the product wasn't working! I wish I had read this before I wasted my time filing the dispute.

  • noz on 01/07/2013 - 10:33
    +1

    To the OP, the eBay item you have purchased. I notice that you have given the seller "neutral" feedback (instead of "negative" feedback) . Just curious why .. ?

  • T1OOO on 01/07/2013 - 12:40

    thanks guys, i only buy from trusted sources,.. ebay is a place i dont venture to often, and mainly to sell, and hate paypal all together. Pretty much criminal conduct in my book, and should be ashamed of themself , its tantamount to being complicit in legalised theft.

  • anna10 on 04/03/2015 - 11:24

    Hi, just looking for any updated info on buying an expensive but smallish low postage) item on ebay. I have a high rating, but the seller has ZERO feedback. If I buy it and it's a dud, does paypal just refund the money or what. Never had this prob before.

    EDIT - whoever the seller was, they tried to send me their email address without writing it in code eg 'at' instead of @, so now they have been disbarred from ebay.

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