DISCUSSION - Should OzBargain only be viewable to those who log in under an active account?

Ldarthhasbro on 12/02/2013 - 07:08

First off let me say I think we have a great community here, but I feel that for every contributing active member here we have 3 or maybe 4 lurkers who do nothing but leech off the active community while contributing absolutely nothing of their own

Now I don't know if its been suggested before, but what if in order to view the bargains and forums on OzBargain, you had to log in with an active account? Would this deter anonymous leeches? Maybe it would encourage people to contribute?

Would like to hear others point of view on this, agree or disagree?

Poll Options

  • 39
    Yes
  • 121
    No
Site Discussion

Comments

  • mskeggs on 12/02/2013 - 07:20

    Define 'active account'.
    I don't see a benefit in making users jump through hoops (e.g. having to post deals) to gain access, but I do see the benefit for members in some exclusivity when the good deals are for limited volumes.
    I gather that fast rising deals get posted to the front page before they hit 20 votes - maybe a compromise would be only logged in users can see them?

    • ESEMCE on 12/02/2013 - 07:27

      Being signed in would at least clear the curtain of doubt somewhat about people who do finally make a first post and are then labelled as sockpuppets because they only signed up the same day as their first deal.

      Plus, it's one less hurdle to posting deals.
      ie.
      If you're an unregistered lurker who see's a deal, you have to go through the signup phase before you can post the deal.
      If you're a signed-in lurker, you only have to click Submit before you start typing and linking.

      And I dare say that Scotty might jump up the advertiser's pay-scale if he can show the site has "twice" (insert whatever figure is appropriate) as many members as it did last month.

    • itsfree on 14/02/2013 - 17:53

      I gather that fast rising deals get posted to the front page before they hit 20 votes - maybe a compromise would be only logged in users can see them?

      Now this is a better idea.

  • LiamF on 12/02/2013 - 08:02
    +4

    No. In a nutshell - restrict the deals = fewer impressions = less money to run the site.

  • m0nkeycheese on 12/02/2013 - 08:15
    +1

    Funny thing is I had pretty much the exact question

    http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/89176

    It seems the majority don't care about leeches and well.. majority rules

    Btw you are way underestimating the amount of leaches. Hell I could deal with 3-4 of them, but its more likely in the hundreds. There are 1266 'guests' right now compaired to 200 odd members

    • darthhasbro on 12/02/2013 - 10:09

      My guesstimate of leachers is 3 or 4 for every registered member, not 3 or 4 in total :)

      Apologies for starting a topic that has alrady been covered

      • m0nkeycheese on 12/02/2013 - 23:03

        Lol I probably read that wrong :/

    • Russ on 14/02/2013 - 13:38
      +2

      Re "There are 1266 'guests' right now compaired to 200 odd members"

      Many of those 1266 are probably members. I browse frequently, but only log in to comment or post, so 90% of the time I would be listed amongst the 1266 "non members".

      Only for people who browse on their smartphone, or for those who don't have teenage kids, is it safe to always be logged in.

  • wukachuka on 12/02/2013 - 08:47
    +3

    All that would happen is the "leeches" as people are calling them would just sign up to a throwaway email address and then continue with business as usual.
    I don't see that it would solve any problem.

    It mainly just sounds like sour grapes for missing a deal that was/is limited.

    • darthhasbro on 12/02/2013 - 10:06

      Certainly not sour grapes at all, I have got alot of deals from this site that I wouldn't have even known about otherwise and am very thankful for that fact. As a result, I try to contribute where I can. I guess it just irks me that others just take, without even thought of contributing and giving back.

      Your point is well made regarding throwaway email addresses, but sites like eBay for example ban sign ups from hotmail, gmail and the like. Could it be done here?

      I guess it would be alot of administration for not alot of reward, and that lurkers are just a part of forum communities we have to live with.

      • retiredfeline on 13/02/2013 - 07:38

        eBay didn't prohibit me from using a mail provider address, where did you get that idea?

      • BobD on 13/02/2013 - 09:14
        +2

        I use Gmail OK with eBay. They would lose (not loose!) a lot of business by not allowing freemail addresses.

    • ESEMCE on 12/02/2013 - 13:23
      +2

      Who cares what their email address is?
      I'm pretty sure I'm signed in on a deprecated email address (ie the host has shut up shop since I signed up!).

    • itsfree on 14/02/2013 - 17:54

      Or, even better, they'd use this.

  • Moderatorscotty on 12/02/2013 - 09:56

    MOVED to Site Discussion forum

    Yes we've covered this topic a few times already. The poll has also been done before as m0nkeycheese has pointed out (lots of interesting discussions there as well so do check it out). No — OzBargain will continue to provide services to all with least resistance. At one stage we even allowed anonymous commenting except that didn't go too well when there's no accountability.

    As it has also been pointed out, leechers are going to leech, and many would just create dummy accounts anyway. There is really no point to make people's life more difficult.

    Now — how to encourage people to contribute? That would be a more fruitful discussion I think. We've tried giving out prizes, making the site easier to use, gamification of the system, etc. Feel free to give more suggestions, but probably not in this thread.

    • darthhasbro on 12/02/2013 - 10:08

      Apologies for covering old ground

      How to encourage people to contribute - thats really where I was coming from I guess

    • aussieaubs on 12/02/2013 - 11:34

      hi scotty, any idea about iphone app? or maybe im missing something. just hard to read on iphone….

      thx

    • Helmuth on 12/02/2013 - 15:24
      +1

      To encourage people to contribute - how about anybody who isn't logged in gets an automatic 30 minute delay before they see a deal. Anyone who doesn't have 1 comment post or vote in the last month gets a 5 minute delay.

      Contributors get first bite at the deals?

      • [Deactivated] on 12/02/2013 - 16:35
        +3

        We already have a 5 minute delay for guests.

        • Helmuth on 12/02/2013 - 16:47
          +2

          Really? I didn't know that! I've learned something today - thanks.

        • Ahanafi on 13/02/2013 - 08:45

          Really? Does that apply to RSS/Twitter feeds too then? That's usually how I keep updated with ozb…

        • Moderatorscotty on 13/02/2013 - 09:40

          RSS -> yes. Well it's actually not an explicit delay on our end, but more of caching on both OzBargain and Feedburner that results the delay. Same as browsing on OzBargain as a guest. The pages are cached for between 5-30 minutes so a visitor might be browsing an old version of the page.

          Twitter Feed -> that's almost real-time. Usually take 2-3 seconds after a deal has been posted to appear on @ozbargain.

        • camelgrass on 14/02/2013 - 06:44

          The pages are cached for between 5-30 minutes…

          Is there are a particular reason for this? Is it to save money on serving and hosting the site; at the same time optimising speed and stability and reducing chances of a crash?

          I imagine this is at least part of the reason. But it's not done for members? Is this simply because they are logged in and caching of pages could cause problems and confusion with members if they comment and post deals? Eg., they post a deal or comment but don't see their new content for up to 30 min.

          Therefore, caching of pages does not occur to explicitly disadvantage visitors but rather it's more of an operational issue?

        • scotty on 14/02/2013 - 09:40

          That's right. It's all operational reason — it's a lot "cheaper" to serve a page to visitor as a lot of elements are pre-calculated, where users can have different options and settings which make caching a hassle (although some parts are still cached, just not on a whole-page level).

          And what's wrong for being cheap on hosting while running a bargain site? :)

        • camelgrass on 14/02/2013 - 11:38

          And what's wrong for being cheap on hosting while running a bargain site? :)

          haha…

          There's another side to it though if you scrimp too much on serving costs. Not that I'm saying you do. You seem to have set the balance fairly well for serving pages but there can be downfalls.

          Eg., when members share links to pages, the receiver may not see the updated content, therefore putting them off the website. Also Google crawls quite often and you may be missing a fair bit of traffic from Google Search. There's other scenarios as well where serving delayed content and updates may lose you traffic and repeat visitors.

          You invariably already know all this and have thought about it. I also understand you have to deliver a balance between cost and efficiency.

  • AlanHB on 12/02/2013 - 16:04
    +6

    I may be a little pessimistic here, but it seems to me these types of discussions are the type of thing that would be spurred by the topic starter "just" missing out on a deal they really wanted.

  • aong152 on 12/02/2013 - 16:48
    +6

    As a long time lurker, the main reason i didn't create an account was because i never saw any deals to share!

    • schrodingerscat on 12/02/2013 - 22:26
      +3

      I agree, I've never had anything to share and voting on a deal didn't seem like a reason to sign up. I've signed up now though, gotta go find deals worth of posting now :) I agree with scotty, a more fruitful discussion would be how to encourage more to join … .

    • AlanHB on 13/02/2013 - 08:21

      And now you're signed up, you'll be tempted to "not share" on occassions. Just wait till you ozbargain yourself :)

  • Syn88 on 12/02/2013 - 21:44
    +2

    Also sometimes it's a case of finding a good deal, wanting to post it, then find that someones beaten you to it. No point 20 people posting the same deal so that they can not leach. Sometime's it's just a case of people not wanting to spam others with the same deal.

  • Dollarsandsense on 12/02/2013 - 22:35
    +4

    I'm a leech, and have been for about a year now. I have capitalised on about 3 deals in this time. Finally got around to registering the other week. I actually use the forums as a bit of bed time reading, I am usually just interested to check the OBers opinions on the items posted. It's honest feedback and based around different products each day or week. It's hard to find a real review on anything these days! Good night seeds and leeches

  • Dollarsandsense on 12/02/2013 - 22:44
    +3

    P.S. The more people that visit OB the better i reckon. Maybe Scotty knows the stats i.e. 5-10% of leeches become seeds. instead of looking at ways to punish the leeches or slow down the site look at ways to entice the leech to contribute I.e. the most positive votes on a deal for the month wins X.

    • ESEMCE on 13/02/2013 - 10:48

      That happens (or used to) already.

    • neil on 13/02/2013 - 11:12

      Not sure how to calculate that, so maybe one of you math wizzes (sp?) can figure it out.

      One of the challenges for all sites is converting guests into signed up users. Would love to hear ideas? We've made the signup as easy as possible, offered contests etc. Maybe worth starting a thread what made you go from guest to member?

      • psych23 on 13/02/2013 - 13:12
        +1

        Long time guest, short time member.

        I still only log in from my direct daily digest email. When I have a bed time read I go straight to the page and am not logged in and won't unless I have something to add (just an FYI)

  • Davo1111 on 12/02/2013 - 23:32
    +3

    A 15 minute delay would be the absolute MOST for non logged in users. Apart from that i don't see any real benefit. Are we a community, or a mob?

  • BobD on 13/02/2013 - 07:26
    +7

    Someone suggested not allowing Hotmail and Gmail addresses. I don't have any other addresses. I have 4 Gmail, 1 Hotmail and 1 Outlook.com. These addresses have become mainstream these days. My ISP seems to have a lousy email service. Something which is becoming more common. By using Gmail etc. I don't have to change email addresses when changing ISPs.

  • superklue on 13/02/2013 - 09:02

    Could it be possible to restrict some deals, e.g. ones with low stock, or super discounts? The user could indicate this when posting the deal, or failing that, a mod could step in and make the deal exclusive for members.

    We could also limit the number of deals this 'exclusive' option could be used for in a given week. Perhaps this option would only be available to mod's. Kind of like a sticky on forums.

    These deals could be advertised to members using the daily email.

    Overall, I think this would still keep the casual browser happy, as they are getting the classic Dominos/SD card deals, and the members happy because there is some level of exclusivity to super deals. It also provides a carrot for casual browsers to sign up and check the site regularly.

  • CI on 13/02/2013 - 13:58

    Dart I understand what you are saying
    I posted a similar question around a year ago
    Ozbargainers felt 50/50 back then on this issue

  • cpr182 on 13/02/2013 - 14:10
    +10

    Hi Guys,

    So, based on the feedback here, and after a month or two of "leeching", I thought, "sure, why not, i'll sign up, be part of the community".

    As a new member, and someone who intends to be active, allow me point out a few things i've noted:

    1. Yes, sometimes new posters put a topic in the wrong area, or put something up you wouldn't consider a hefty bargain. There's probably a nicer way to explain that to someone than scolding them in the comments section. Just adds to an elitist mind-set, not a communcal one.

    2. Whilst I appreciate every effort is made to avoid having people spam the website with rubbish, etc… it's a bit disheartening as a new member to sign up, go to post a topic and be told that you need to wait 24 hours to do so. Is there not some kind of authentification process that could be used? Most "good" deals that hit this site will either expire or sell out quickly, 24 hours may not hit the mark for most people?

    Not intending to sound negative at all, just some thoughts from a new member.

    • Moderatorscotty on 13/02/2013 - 14:16

      Thanks. Those are great feedbacks.

      • flyingtrapeze on 13/02/2013 - 23:33
        +7

        while we are giving feedback, might as well throw this out there.

        the culture of this site does not necessary encourage newbies, and by newbies, I mean folks who might have lurked for years.
        1) if you post a deal, unless it is relatively straight forward, you have to spend ages writing it. postage, expiration, which store, upload the receipt, and there is no tutorial or youtube to show you how to do it. just uploading the receipt requires a PC, I don't know how to do it with a phone to be honest. upload.ozbargain.com some url reference and html back into the deal.
        2) the folks are harsh. if it isn't a mega deal, they shoot you down. if it is not a freebie they shoot you down. if it is sold out they shoot you down. and we are talking about the people who are actively commenting…
        3) deals that require some effort and most readers who are too lazy to repeat the effort bury you idea. some of us don't even bother to post deals that might require people to get off their chair and go pick up the product, because the "reward of sharing" sometimes is abuse and frustration.

        Scotty might have noticed this already. If you can leverage this site positively, you could get suppliers to have weekly or daily specials, because you can drive the volume, and thus thinner margin. Why else would shoppingexpress keep coming back for the N36L/N40L deals all the time? Is got to be a win-win with the retailers as well. Is Price-error, "ozbargained" the kind of reputation this site is striving for? Interesting, isn't it?

        On the positive side, do you remember the Rechargeable battery deal where the OP used an Amazon affiliate link? He came back and posted a "Thank you" for the commission that Amazon sent him. That is a 3 Way Win-win. The community, the OP, and the seller in this case Amazon. This kind of deal would ensure the on going success of this site. Not restricting who and what anyone should post.

        • Moderatorscotty on 14/02/2013 - 00:03

          Thanks for the feedback.

          1. Yes posting a deal with comprehensive details can be quite a bit of work. Uploading an image should hopefully be made pretty straight forward this week with the new media uploader (works on phones too). But keeping the details updated — moderators and power users can now edit deals to fix up errors / adding details / etc.

          2. Yes. Being hash & critical might be good picking out the dodgy shops and spammers (which can be quite useful sometimes), but definitely don't make people welcome. Negative votes have also been long debated. That's unfortunately part of the culture here that I'm hoping it would change. More welcoming, less negativity.

          3. I am sure there are many who are willing to put some effort into scoring bargains. However as per (2) it's usually the negativity that might deter people posting deals that require more effort.

          A Win-Win is definitely the ideal outcome, however it is not always achievable. When there's a conflict OzBargain usually stands on consumers' point of view. However I would like to remind the users that merchants are still the ones providing the bargains, and the morality of some members here is indeed questionable.

          As of shaw's Thank you post as an Amazon affiliate, well it's a triple win only if done right. At one stage we have no limit on affiliate links and deals pages are packed with Vitacost referral deals, which is not something I want to see either.

  • TrendyTim on 13/02/2013 - 15:55
    +1

    Normally i wouldn't care, but OzBargain logs me out regularly so it would get rather annoying.

  • maximum on 13/02/2013 - 16:32
    +4

    I lurked for a while before I signed up and I am sure people who I tell about this site would do the same. I don't think there should be any restrictions because you never know when one of these lurkers is going to find the bargain of the year and think to post it here.

  • camelgrass on 13/02/2013 - 17:33
    +1

    This is a funny discussion. You know that this isn't OzStoneMason's!!

    Any major (even low to moderate) restrictions placed on visitors to the site would invariably lead to the downfall of OzBargain. Over a period of time there would be fewer and fewer people coming to the site, less revenue and ultimately fewer members whom contribute anything meaningful.

    Leeching? You could apply that term to everyone of you who visit any number of websites everyday.

    Information wants to be free
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_wants_to_be_free

  • sama on 13/02/2013 - 18:38
    +5

    I think a short 10-60 minute delay in posts to unlogged views would be a reasonable perk to being a member.

    Personally, becoming a member to read the greyed out comments is a good enough reason for me ;)

    • camelgrass on 13/02/2013 - 19:18

      You are right! Ironically, you can often learn more from the greyed out comments than other comments.

      I'm half serious here, but there is some truth to it!!

      • sama on 13/02/2013 - 19:42
        +4

        I mostly read them because they're hilarious.

  • Commonwealth Pig on 13/02/2013 - 19:14
    +3

    I think at the end of the day if the "leecher" has something they are willing to contribute to the site they will sign up and post it. This is obviously positive for the community.

    Blocking the "leeches" and everyone else out will just make them disinterested in the site and they will move on.

    I also prefer to think of the site as more of a community than a club.

    • camelgrass on 13/02/2013 - 19:27

      I agree. Even leeches are part of the community. In fact they pay for much of it through advertising placed on the website.

      The site will have a more elitist club feel about it if visitors are somehow seen to be treated that much more differently to members.

      • Commonwealth Pig on 13/02/2013 - 20:04
        +1

        The site will have a more elitist club feel about it

        This is exactly what I think should be avoided. IMO it's counter productive when trying to encourage new contributors.

  • eatercider on 13/02/2013 - 21:54
    +2

    I've leeched for about a month and a half and wanted to say something now that I've become a guest. It's a bit disheartening as a newcomer for some few in this community to be so forceful and seeming interest in division.

    Ultimately yes the topic creator and those who voted for blocking do want a better site but being exclusive is just a obstacle to a potentially larger audience.

  • kryptoz on 14/02/2013 - 00:50
    +1

    even as a member, this site is a pain to log in to on a shared computer or mobile — the cookies and password reset is quite a nuisance — however, if OzBargain allowed logging in through social media verification (ie. facebook/google+/linkedin/etc), I would be open to the suggested login to read comments idea, although it is bound to decimate the number of casual readers, either for good or bad.

    • scotty on 14/02/2013 - 09:41

      Yes we have planned to allow Facebook/Google/Twitter logins — it would still get linked to an actual account though.

  • mangoman on 14/02/2013 - 08:43

    Not sure but usually most people who contribute i assume are people who are good samaritans, doing their bit for the karma of the world.

    I dont see any problem in having to login in the website to view posts, however, it sounds like you want to go down the path of setting up a credit system. IMHO, if you go down that path people are going to start posting anything they can find which is kind of well…. semi-cheapish.

  • tagin on 14/02/2013 - 12:39
    +1

    Correct me if i'm wrong, but leechers are good for the site in terms of making money. Unregistered users get pushed to ozbargain affiliate links where possible whereas logged in users aren't sent to affiliate links.

    • camelgrass on 14/02/2013 - 13:07
      +2

      Absolutely correct.

      Also, registered users have fewer adds displayed and even have the option to turn off adds altogether.

      Hence why I doubt the current OzBargain model will ever change significantly. If you have a model where visitors feel they are being throttled, have to jump over hurdles (even very small ones) or feel they are being treated differently in any way; that will quickly see the demise of OzBargain.

      OzBargain needs its leechers, if that's what you want to call them, just as much as its registered users.

  • peterpeterpumpkin on 14/02/2013 - 14:07
    +3

    To be honest, most "crazy value" deals go so fast and are usually end-of-line products that I never really needed in the first place. And I can live with a missed freebie and skip travelling to DSE in Coonabarrabran for a limited stock clearance.

    I come here for the cheapskates' insider knowledge and cynical product and service reviews that stay up-to-date. While the comments may sadly become at times as warm as a stackedoverflow.com forum, it's reassuring to have honest opinions that haven't been drowned out by excess sockpuppeting and customer revenge stories. I have the best value phone on the best value phone plan thanks to OzBargain.

    As a matter of fact, I'm not much of a consumer so most deals I find useless for me and hence rarely post bargains myself. And to be completely honest - my whole life I've hated "voting" and segregative groups and all the similar clanish bullying behaviours that wreak of a school system with social and psychological acceptance issues :) As an aside though it's interesting when a very well made documenrary about an abhorrent activity gets posted on Youtube and people don't know whether to vote up or down…

  • itsfree on 14/02/2013 - 17:51

    Great commentary on a much more prominent website that has this egregious practice.

  • DealzEddy123 on 15/02/2013 - 11:20
    +2

    this site is for sharing of knowledge, not swapping of knowledge
    As much as I do benefit from others' posts, I don't share knowledge because I expect others to do the same. I just share because I think it'll help others and makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

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