Any Paint Specialists on Here?

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  apsilon on 18/12/2024 - 20:37

  I can't recommend anyone in SA but any competent panel shop or detailer will have a paint thickness gauge and be able to tell you how thin the paint is in the "repaired" areas compared to the rest of the vehicle.

  It may be of interest that the clear coat does most of the UV protection and the UV inhibitors (I'm speaking generally here as I don't know what paint Mazda uses, probably Nippon or BASF, only what I've been involved with) are designed to migrate to the surface of the coat during curing where they can do the most good so any polishing/paint correction actually effects the UV protection by removing the top of the paint and therefore a good amount of those inhibitors.

  • 

    tunzafun001 on 18/12/2024 - 22:49

    Hi mate. Any chance of getting the later in some form of written statement? Appreciate the insight.

    • 

      apsilon on 19/12/2024 - 05:44

      I'm not sure where I stand with NDAs so I'd be reluctant to but the same info is online if you search for it. eg http://togwt1980.blogspot.com/2015/05/clear-coat-and-uv-prot…

      I'd also suggest contacting PPG customer service as I believe they're the largest automotive coating producer with a presence in Aust and see if they can put you in touch with someone in their automotive division that would be willing to help or at least point you to some papers on the matter.

      • 

        apsilon on 19/12/2024 - 19:46

        I should've also added your first step before anything is to have someone check the paint thickness. If it hasn't been taken back too far then that argument is out the window.

  • 

    ATTS on 21/12/2024 - 15:35

    Is there way to tell if older cars have rust? Imports. I hear the term rust buckets

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      apsilon on 21/12/2024 - 15:53

      For most people, visual clues are going to be the only way. Other than obvious rust, bubbling or orange/brown stains can be an indication of corrosion under the paint. There are tests that can be done but the equipment is $$$ so you're better off looking for someone that offers the service but most won't be mobile so you need to take the car to them. It also depends on the age of the vehicle. Generally speaking cars today don't rust like car from the 70s and earlier unless their protection is compromised through damage though if the car is coming from somewhere that uses salt on roads that also can cause issues. In the case of an import where you can't view the vehicle, you'll really need an agent you can trust.

      • 

        ATTS on 22/12/2024 - 15:43

        Thanks. Yeah was concerned with rust in the frame. Oh so after 70s how wqs rust improved?

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          apsilon on 22/12/2024 - 16:00

          @ATTS: It was a variety of things as well as gradual changes. Essentially manufacturers started using corrosion inhibitors starting with galvanising type treatments, changes to design so water didn't have places to collect and lay right through to the ecoat dips I believe all manufacturers use today.

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            ATTS on 22/12/2024 - 16:10

            @apsilon: Thanks makes sense.

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  BewareOfThe Dog on 18/12/2024 - 20:39

  If you were in NSW, then

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  MS Paint on 18/12/2024 - 20:41

  It is my understanding that PDR makes no difference whether it's metallic or flat, but I'm no expert in that area. I do own a PDR kit and have done PDR on two of my cars. It's not easy. One car is metallic the other is flat. While watching at least 10+ hours of PDR tutorials on YouTube not once do I recall a difference because a car is metallic. A light heat source is applied to keep the paint flexible and avoid cracking.

  Is the clear coat only failing where the hail dents were, or all over.

  Clear coat mainly fails on horizontal surfaces and the tops of curved side panels.

  6 years later is a long time. How old is the car now? Is your car regularly given top protection coats? Have you ever had the car polished, waxed, ceramic coated?

  It takes an amazing effort to polish clear coat too thin and to the point of failure. A PDR specialist is likely using a dual action polisher rather than an orbital to minimise damage.

  Basically I need something in writing from an automotive professional stating that more than 50% of the failure is due to the repair work.

  I hope for your sake that you find that person but I personally think you have no chance.

  You might want to change the title to automotive paint specialists.

  • 

    tunzafun001 on 18/12/2024 - 22:57

    Thanks. The clear coat is perfect in the areas that had minimum hail impact. Likewise the mirrors.
    The areas that took the full hail brunt are either delaminating (in circular patterns), or the clear has gone completely.
    I took comparative photos of several other identical make/ model/ year / color vehicles that had sun fading. They were very different.
    I'm going to assume the heating wasn't done as you say, or something else.
    Either way, the delamination follows the hail damage precisely.
    As for the 6yrs. Had to wait for it to be apparent that it was failing everywhere the hail impacts occured.

    • 

      Protractor on 19/12/2024 - 10:04

      It was clearly a shit prepped job. Get it in and out as quick as possible is how smash repair works. They worry about the failures later, and weaseling out or denying, delaying is the usual M.O.
      Customers usually cave.Hang in there. Ask for a different (quality) repairer next time. And document everything, and let Allianz know you are documenting it, and want it done right for your sake and theirs.

      • 

        tunzafun001 on 19/12/2024 - 11:57

        +2

        For sure. The dents were far too sharp for PDR. They did a brilliant job of the dents. But the paint was toast.

        Then throw in a polish that took it too thin.

        Every time it rains the water penetrated though and lifted .

        So.. lodged a complaint with Allianz in March, Aprit, May…Heard nothing from them until June.

        Assessors are smart. No emails, all phone calls. I've recorded them. Apparently can't use them. They admit the mirrors not faded is irregular and warrants an independent check.

        Independent paint specialist appointed in July. Car dropped off.

        Get a claim rejection from Allianz in Sep. They site an independent report found exclusive UV damage (dated in April)!!!

        So Allianz must have a time machine.

        I call the person on the report. He says he never did it. Wants to know who is using his name.

        I report this to AFCA. They still currently find in their favour.

        So apparently they can comit fraud with reports and give out warranty with no meaning.

        Lawyers paradise these days.

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  holdenmg on 18/12/2024 - 20:59

  In SA, if you are a Member, phone RAA Technical Services for Support.

  Otherwise, you could look at https://casanovacrashrepairs.com.au at Kent Town.

  • 

    tunzafun001 on 18/12/2024 - 22:57

    +1

    Thanks mate

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  JIMB0 on 18/12/2024 - 21:36

  -2

  After 6 years a respray would likely have failed also.

  • 

    tunzafun001 on 18/12/2024 - 22:59

    You would hope not. My car is older, exposed to the same sun conditions. But was under cover during the hail. My clear coat is perfect.

  • 

    Protractor on 19/12/2024 - 10:00

    FTFY
    After 6 years a shit quality respray would likely have failed also.

    • 

      JIMB0 on 19/12/2024 - 11:09

      There's not many quality panel shops used by insurance.

      • 

        Protractor on 19/12/2024 - 11:33

        I'd agree about high turnover places being sub par.Fully.
        Not the place to take your pride & joy for a proper respray.By a long shot.
        The point in this story though, is the commitment was made, and the job that was done did not match it.
        On paper the business says it has 'qualified trades people working to an industry standard'.
        (or it wouldn't get a contract with insurers.) Albeit the business could be top heavy in non trades people.
        Who checks? What's the penalty? Is there one?

        6 years is a minimum expectation of a fit for purpose spray job on a repair. (Look at the claims of the manufacturer "If applied correctly etc" The business F'dUp and now Alliance are playing ducks and drakes and hoping OP walks away. Most ppl do.

        • 

          tunzafun001 on 19/12/2024 - 11:59

          @Protractor: Been on it for 6 years now. I'm all in. Covid threw everything out. Basically started again in 2022. AFCA just getting back now.

  • 

    Boioioioi on 19/12/2024 - 10:36

    I doubt it? Ive got two 10 year old cars in great condition paint wise. Especially when parked indoors most of the time

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      tunzafun001 on 19/12/2024 - 12:07

      Yeah, mine (inside when it hailed) is darker and in perfect condition.

      Her headlights, mirrors, bumpers and leeward side from the storm are all perfect.

      They are having a lend.

      Assessor admitted it on the phone ..but a phone is not admissable.

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  CurlCurl on 18/12/2024 - 21:48

  +1

  After 6 years a respray would likely have failed also.

  If that was the case Allianz re assured us that the car repair and workmanship are covered for the life of ownership it would have been resprayed again.

  • 

    JIMB0 on 19/12/2024 - 13:03

    +1

    Either way there'd be a dispute with the insurance company.

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  JimmyF on 19/12/2024 - 09:01

  -2

  They opted for a PDR repair (which was surprising as the hail wasn't round / uniform). More like triangle conglomerates.

  Go watch some PDR videos, they can do amazing things.

  6 years later. The clear coat has fallen apart in all the hail damage areas. Always broke up when it rained/ washed the car.

  How old is the car? Is it stored in the sun or shade? What colour is it?

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  Protractor on 19/12/2024 - 09:59

  +1

  FFS all just to get out of admitting fault and doing the right thing by the customer?
  I'd maybe give a local TAFE (see if one of the appropriate trainers can help or lead you to a source of help) a call of whichever body reps auto spray painters and tell your woes.

  • 

    tunzafun001 on 19/12/2024 - 12:04

    Good idea re Tafe.

    Funny thing, when I first lodged the rectification quote was around $850. Now it's just under $6k.

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  thesilverstarman on 24/12/2024 - 15:50

  you will have an impossible time proving that the clear coat failure has occured only at the points where it was repaired. You may see round areas but as you said, the hail damage was not round. If it failed, it would fail in every single repair area. Clear coat doesnt fail in sheets. It fails in small areas and spreads. Unless you have pictures of all the dents and can show that these are the exact areas of repair, you will fail.
  PDR doesnt fatigue the paint anymore than flex on bumper bars. Paint is not brittle. It has movement. Push slightly on a door and you will see the panel move, but the paint will not break and fall off.
  You see clear coat failure. You previously had PDR done. You think that there is correlation between the 2 events, but there are thousands of cars that have had PDR repairs with no issues, and thousands that have clear coat failure that have never had PDR. You need to PROVE a correlation, and I dont see any paint expert that will hang themselves out to dry on this matter.
  I do reports for Insurance companies and courts, and opinions dont matter. Has to be facts - able to be proven.
  I would ask a used car yard who they use for paint and body, and then go see them for a repair. Car yards always use cheap places. If the base coat is ok, a light sand and a clear coat will sort it out cheaply.

  • 

    tunzafun001 on 24/12/2024 - 17:22

    Cheers for the extensive reply.

    The failure is ultimately from the sharp hail.
    PDR was the wrong repair type as the clear coat was already fractured.

    Even the rear bumper direct facing the storm has now failed.

    Most damning is that the clear failed on the side first (not the top), as the hail came in with 100+km/h winds almost horizontally. So the bumper side is now going as well, peeling outwards heading towards the top (where sun is most prevalent).

    Bumper was originally fine when I took it back under warranty. Front bumper is still perfect, but no hail hit the front.

    It failed first in roundish patches (the hail impact sites), then spread. Especially after rains/ washing.

    The failed areas are ONLY where the hail hit. The leeward side paint work is still perfect.

    The failed pattern 100% follows the hail impact. It's 110% a wrong repair choice.

    As I said to Allianz on the day we took it in..
    You need to re paint it… the impacts are far too sharp for PDR.

    They did an amazing job with the dents, but the clear was already fractured.

  • 

    tunzafun001 on 24/12/2024 - 17:27

    +1

    • should point out every repairer has their own version of what happened.

    Ie. Current guy thinks it was polished too thin.

    Plausible…may be even likely. But damage was already done anyway.

    None of them, even BASF paints can explain a reason why the top of the mirrors, leeward side is still perfect…

    So it has to be impact/ hail.

    My point is simply this. Allianz took on the repair and gave a warranty. It didn't last the warranty period. They made a repair type choice and got it wrong.

    • 

      thesilverstarman on 24/12/2024 - 17:57

      If the paint was fractured then you would have seen the cracks in it after it was repaired. PDR is the preferred method for hail repair, not repainting. It keeps the factory paint, and avoids adding filler etc, as well as colour matching paint.
      If it was polished too thin, then the detailer must not have known how to polish. You can literally sand and polish paint and not go through the clear.
      When the clear coat fails, it has nothing to do with the thickness of the clear coat. It is simply UV light causing oxidation which breaks down the clear coat and the bonds that hold it on the paint fail. It can be made worse from environmental factors including fallout from chemicals and pollution, and is usually a factor when various paints are used or applied improperly. I have never heard it happening as a result of PDR where the paint was not cracked. You seem to think that paint is solid and unmoving. It is not rigid, and flexes and moves. Heat and cold will cause it to expand and contract, and it moves when the panel moves. As for some parts not failing, like mirrors, this is not unusual. In the factory, the shell is painted but the mirrors and bumpers are painted seperatly and then fitted later. Because they are plastic, they often have different primers etc which affect adhesion. That is why on some colours you will see a slight variance in shade to the rest of the car.
      Your logic just doesnt hold up. There is no causative link between the 2 events, which is why your claim would have been denied. PDR is a physical thing. Clear coat breakdown is a chemical thing. The two are not connected and you would find it impossible to argue otherwise. If the clear coat was cracked in the PDR process not only would you see the cracks, but water would ingress and they cracks would get larger, causinf clear coat delamination, which is where water gets underneath. It would cause the paint to flake off, and would not just be clear coat but would take colour as well.
      I understand that you are frustrated. If the car had been repainted and the clear coat failed, then that would be a warranty issue. Because the paint is factory, it will be either a manufacturer issue (which would be common for your model) of an environmental one.

      • 

        tunzafun001 on 24/12/2024 - 21:00

        Cheers again. Always hard without seeing the car itself. But I do appreciate your insight.

        I don't think the PDR alone is solely to blame. The hail was long conglomerate triangles (not your standard balls). Like shattered ice. Ie. Driver mirror face and rear windows were smashed. House windows, traffic lights etc were smashed as well. Hail hit from the back corner. This side is by far the worst.

        I guess the inverse for me is a hard sell.
        Ie. Why hasn't the side of the car that didn't have hail damage delaminate as well?
        Why is the protected / shadow side of the car still perfect?

        Yet direct hail impact sides have big flakes of delamination. Can't be a coincidence.

        Good insight into the mirrors/ bumpers. But the mirrors backs weren't hail impacted (as they are behind the impact direction). Its basically anywhere hail directly impacted, we have failure. Glancing areas are ok (which naturally didn't require much if any repair).

        But these areas have the same 100% sun exposure. So to say its just Sun damage is madness to me

        The top of the guards, doors frames, rear quarter, door handle tops, roof rubber rails etc equally face the sun. But they are like new.

        I walked around the panel beaters and took photos of other Mazdas of the same color, model and age. They all had sun damage equally. Headlights were cloudy and yellow. Rubber rails on roof gone. Black parts around doors. Mirrors /bumpers gone. Hers are like new.

        This was a red flag in terms of the Mazda paint is obviously poor. At some point the clear goes brittle. You can crunch the little bits off.

        So at.some point, the clear will no longer flex. I believe her car was around this point. If I'm putting a 10yr warranty on a metallic paint repair, I'm re painting it!

        They took a gamble bringing a pop up repair tent into the town. It didn't work out on this Mazda.

        I also noted the others sun damaged cars go all white and hazy/snowy and blister. Our car delaminated in large flakes. It's a different appearance.

        Lastly, I asked the panel beater if they would expect their repaired clear coat to fail within 6-10 years. Absolutely not was the response.

        So while I appreciate the time going into PDR (it is amazing), I'm without any doubt we wouldn't be in this position if it was painted. I did request it to be painted at the time, but denied and we had to use the pop up tent PDR. ..

        But again, reassured if anything happens the repair is under warranty.