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@SirFrankGrimes: I already told you at the start of this discussion.
John's clear conclusion;
John 20:31 KJV
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Also, Jesus has a God.
Revelation 3:12 KJV
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
@aboabo: @aboabo
Those two passages don’t answer all my questions about who you believe Jesus is.
Did God (the Father / Yahweh) create Jesus 2000 odd years ago?
Was Jesus perfect? Did he sin?
Is Jesus a deity? Is he divine?
Did he bodily resurrect from the dead?
Where is Jesus now?
What relevance does Jesus have to your life?
Regarding John 20, you are failing to acknowledge that in the same passage Jesus is called God by Thomas. John uses the same Greek word ‘theos’ to describe God the Father and Jesus. I’ve pointed this out several times but you’ve ignored it, just like you’ve ignored the other verses I’ve provided that call Jesus God (more examples below).
“Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” Thomas answered him, “MY LORD AND MY GOD (THEOS)!” Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” John 20:26-31
Regarding Revelation 3:12, Jesus calls the Father, "My God" in many places such as: Matt 27:46, John 20:17, Rom 15:6, Eph 1:3, 17, 2 Cor 11:31, Heb 1:9, 1 Peter 1:3, Rev 1:6, 3:12.
Your argument seems to be centred around that fact if Jesus calls the Father "God" then Jesus cannot be "God".
Either, Jesus is God or He is not and according to the NT, Jesus IS God.
Matthew 1:23
John 1:1
John 1:18
John 5:17-18
John 5:23
John 10:30
John 20:28
Acts 20:28
Romans 9:5
Ephesians 5:5
Philippians 2:5-8
2 Thessalonians 1:12
1 Timothy 3:16
Titus 2:13
Hebrews 1:8
Hebrews 1:9
2 Peter 1:1
1 John 5:20
The NT also often takes unique titles of YHWH of the OT and applies them to Jesus.
I AM
Ex 3:13-15; Deut 32:39, Isa 41:4, 43:10, 13, 25, 45:19, 46:4, 48:12, 51:12, 52:6
Matt 14:27, Mark 6:50, Mark 13:6, Luke 21:8, Mark 14:62, Luke 22:70, John 4:26, 6:20, 8:24, 28, 58, 13:9, 18:5-8.
Creator
Isa 44:24, 45:18
John 1:3, 10, Col 1:16, 17, Heb 1:2
Saviour
Isa 43:3, 11, 45:17, 21
Matt 1:21; Acts 4:12; 2 Tim 1:10; Tit 1:4, 2:13, 3:6; 2 Pet 1:1, 11
Glory
Isa 42:8, 48:11
John 17:5, 24
First and Last
Isa 41:4, 44:6, 48:12
Rev 1:17, 18, 2:8, 22:13
Lord of Lords
Deut 10:17, Ps 136:3, 26
Rev 17:14, 19:16
Lord of All
Deut 10:17, Josh 3:11, 13, Ps 97:5, Zech 4:14, 6:5, Mic 4:13
Acts 10:36, Rom 10:12, Col 1:15
It is abundantly clear that Jesus is not simply the Son of God. He is God the Son, worthy of our praise and worship.
You also haven’t addressed my 10 points of argumentation above.
Please take the time to respond properly to my arguments, not just deflect them. It will only enrich and strengthen your understanding of the Bible.
Also, you still haven’t told me what your background is? Why?
@SirFrankGrimes: Malachi 2:10 KJV
Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?
John 20:17 KJV
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Mary later told Thomas but he didn't believe it until he literally saw Jesus. Paul explained it for you.
Galatians 1:1 KJV
Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
The God of Thomas is the same as the God of Jesus.
Jesus tells us that the only true God is the Father.
Trinitarianism is a false doctrine cooked up by those of the likes of Simon Magus. It's not what Jesus and his apostles taught at all.
John 7:16-19 KJV
Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
John 19:7 KJV
The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
"God the son" found nowhere in scripture.
@aboabo: I’m done arguing with a fool. You refuse to answer my questions, you haven’t addressed most of my arguments, you ignore the plethora of scripture that clearly and explicitly refers to Jesus as God amongst other titles on par with God the Father, and keep pushing a tenuous narrative built on an incredibly shaky foundation.
You’ve clearly been led astray and are in need of the saving love of Jesus. Like I’ve said before, you need to leave whatever church/cult/sect you’re in and start thinking for yourself, seeking out the truth of the gospel, which can be found in Christ.
I’ll wait for you to respond directly to my questions, rather than redirect to your own twisted fantasy about Jesus being nothing more than a miracle man. I pray for your soul.
@SirFrankGrimes: Nothing more than a miracle man? I told you already; Jesus qualified to be the everlasting king in the kingdom of God. Adam didn't.
I noticed too that you were having a crack at inserting the 'I am' riddle into this discussion.
John 9:8-9 KJV
The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
I was a Trinitarian for about thirteen years. I was pushed straight through the wide gate right after being baptised. I was repeatedly told that it's CLEAR that Jesus is God. That's how the brainwashing begins; little riddles, puzzles, word games, etc.
Social media changed all that. Try posting what you teach on x.com and see how long you can keep it up. I don't have to answer any of your silly questions here because, right now you're in too deep through the wide gate. I just showed you the narrow gate.
Both gates are for believers, because non-believers have no desire to approach either gate. Jesus confirmed that in the parable of the sower.
Trinitarianism is a multi billion dollar industry teaching something that was never taught by anyone found in scripture.
Acts 1:3 KJV
To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.
@aboabo: I’m not using riddles, word games, puzzles or anything else of the sort. Just using my brain to translate scripture directly from the original texts. Using my intellect to exegete Bible passages and interpret the texts accurately and faithfully. You don’t seem to want to do that.
“I don't have to answer any of your silly questions here because, right now you're in too deep through the wide gate. I just showed you the narrow gate.”
If you actually followed the commands of Jesus, you’d want to answer my questions and show me the true Jesus that you so confidently proclaim. You still won’t tell me in full what you believe about Jesus…
“Both gates are for believers, because non-believers have no desire to approach either gate. Jesus confirmed that in the parable of the sower.”
What on earth are you saying here???
“Trinitarianism is a multi billion dollar industry…”
A laughable statement. So is Unitarianism. What’s your point???
@aboabo: Ah yes, Twitter / X, the source of all wisdom, truth and knowledge.
This discussion has only affirmed by Trinitarian convictions.
As a unitarian, you have done nothing to convince me about your beliefs.
I've given you ten times the amount of well-thought through commentary on this topic.
On the other hand, you've refused to address my arguments and won't tell me what you actually believe in full.
You clearly don't know how to have an intellectual debate and strongly encourage you to do some formal theological study.
I pray you come to know Jesus as Lord, Saviour and God, just like the scriptures say in Matthew 1:23, John 1:1, John 1:18, John 5:17-18, John 5:23, John 10:30, John 20:28, Acts 20:28, Romans 9:5, Ephesians 5:5, Philippians 2:5-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:12, 1 Timothy 3:16, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:8, Hebrews 1:9, 2 Peter 1:1 and 1 John 5:20.
@SirFrankGrimes: I'm not here to convince you of my beliefs. You questioned a positive answer I gave to another poster before embarking on a rant about your personal belief in a triune God which nobody throughout scripture tries to make the case for. You used confusing riddles, hints and puzzles to help yourself arrive at the conclusion that Jesus is God, even though John concluded otherwise in John 20.
You may not know, but things like Word, Wisdom, Prudence, Jerusalem, Israel, etc, are sometimes personified in scripture. They're not actual people.
eg.
Proverbs 8:22-25 KJV
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
That's not a person.
It's interesting to watch you use riddles and clues to teach 'Word' in John 1 as a person, yet you remain silent on the dozens of other times where 'Word' is clearly not a person. Why is that? You have the same dilemma with the 'I am' riddle.
Go sharpen some iron on x.com and learn your errors much quicker than I'm able to show you. It's the world's largest online public square where fake news and fake doctrines can be debunked in real time.
Have fun.
@aboabo: What you call puzzles and riddles, academics, scholars, lecturers and Bible teachers call biblical theology and exegesis.
I think you need to spend less time on X/Twitter and more time studying the Bible.
I hope and pray that one day you come to know the true Jesus because there are grave consequences if you continue to deny who He is.
Thanks. Left a small amount of donation. Probably less than sale price normally for similar items but I’m skint
Thanks OP. God bless everyone.
You forgot an asterisk.
*Excluding children who were assaulted by priests
Ahh my bad…* - excluding the murderers and rapists of the Oct 7 atrocities
as opposed to the murders of and rapists from 1942 - 2024 except on one day you believe it all started.
What does something mankind has done have anything to do with God and religion? Non-priests touch kids too. Priests are not someone to look up to as a role model IMO they’re people just like us and they can be worse than people. Did God tell you to go and touch kids at churches? Doubt it.
"Non-priests touch kids too"
But they did not use billions of dollars to rinse,repeat,deny,all the way to the top. The worst part of the whole RC pedo cult was the pathetic response from the flock itself, who looked away or wallowed in denial.
Gods elected team employed by the Vatican covered up and perpetrated those crimes.
@Protractor: They’re not “God’s elected team”. look I’m not even a tiny bit religious. I 100% agree that the catholic church is corrupted to the bone. What im trying to say is it doesn’t say anywhere in the bible to go touch kids . Priests are people and they only get exposed because of their title and their position at the church. I personally believe that priests and the catholic church are ruled by the devil but it doesn’t mean that I have to blame God for it .
@Sr1993e: "look I’m not even a tiny bit religious"
"I personally believe that priests and the catholic church are ruled by the devil but it doesn’t mean that I have to blame God for it ."
Amen
@Sr1993e: (don't tell 'God' & the devil )
I think you have a foot and a half into the religious camp with agnosticism a long way back, but you just don't know it yet.
@Protractor: Sadly, child abusers worked their way into all kinds of power-systems, be it churches, child institutions, schools (private or public) or scout groups. I agree, it is even more sad and shameful that the churches - whose primary purpose to improve relationships between people, their environment and God - proved highly vulnerable to those abusers - and for this all good Christians are deeply ashamed.
It should be noted that secular state government schools in Australia were hardly immune to shuffling criminally abusive teachers from one school to another, covering up sexual offences and then hiding the evidence for decades, such as described in the ABC article https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-08-27/victorian-education-d…. If anything, the Maurice Blackburn lawyers representing plantiffs state (2023):
"I tell people the Victorian Education Department are the worst to deal with, and that as far as cover-ups, they're every bit as bad as the worst bits of the Catholic Church, and people can't believe it. The cover-up was comprehensive, and they managed to slip through the gaps in terms of inquiries and royal commissions, so they've never been properly looked at or had their feet held to the fire. The extent of the problem has never been publicly documented, therefore the Education Department has never had to address it or grapple with it in any way."
If anything, the article describes how both lax documentation and adherence to government-created procedures stifled the release of incriminating information, representing an abuse of power beyond even the churches in Australia. Since that article has been written, the Victorian government has announced a truth-telling process.
@DavidFong: "and for this all good Christians are deeply ashamed." Yet to see the RC church flock display that shame. They just looked away and moved on. I can only deduce there's more bad christians in that cohort than good.
Read it as Leunig. My atheist friends will crucify me.
Thanks OP.
Ordered
Blessed are the cheese-makers. You big nose…
wuweethe woddawick
Amen
(2025 is an option at this stage.)
But I got one for the Netanyahu "post nuclear winter" time-capsule unveiling.
no more free
@aboabo: At it again ignoring my arguments and chucking random verses at me hoping one of them sticks. Happy to write a response.
However, I’m actually quite confused about what you DO believe about Jesus…
Did God (the Father / Yahweh) create Jesus 2000 odd years ago?
Was Jesus perfect? Did he sin?
Is Jesus a deity? Is he divine?
Did he bodily resurrect from the dead?
Where is Jesus now?
What relevance does Jesus have to your life?
I genuinely want to know what it is that a ‘non-Trinitarian’ Christian believes about Jesus and His importance to your faith