[NSW] EV Cars with Solo Driver Can Legally Drive in T2 & T3 Transit Lanes during Peak Period (Blue EV Plate Sticker Required)

vr4indian on 24/09/2024 - 08:57
Last edited 24/09/2024 - 14:10 by 2 other users

Moved to Forum: Original Link

With so many popular EV Deals recently, many drivers may not be aware about using T2 / T3 Lanes during Peak period.

Motorists travelling through New South Wales in an electric vehicle (EV) can continue to use the state’s transit lanes T2 / T3 lanes until mid-2025 while driving solo.

To use the T2 and T3 transit lanes with no occupants other than a driver in the car, EVs must have the blue triangular ‘EV’ sticker on their number plates.

So enjoy your ride while ICE car pays road tax and stuck in traffic while you can zoom past using T2/T3 lanes.

Page 51 of Driving Knowledge Test - https://www.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-08/driver-kn…

LD026 - Traffic Lights / Lanes and LD027 - Traffic Lights / Lanes contracticts this policy or freebies :)

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Comments

    • tessel on 24/09/2024 - 09:21
      +52

      Bro, let me know if you need a chat or hug. I'm here for you to undo whatever happened to you as a child.

      • Deal Or-No Deal on 24/09/2024 - 09:26
        +9

        If he doesn't want it, can I have it?

        • taki on 24/09/2024 - 10:21
          +1

          No. Offer your hugs. Giving hugs is better.

        • DeToxin on 24/09/2024 - 10:21
          +1

          Name checks out

        • gadget on 24/09/2024 - 09:32
          +3

          Hope they didn't get an MG recently

        • DingoBilly on 24/09/2024 - 11:36

          It hurts the same way buying an ICE car and seeing its value drop 30% the moment you drive it out of the dealership hurts.

          At least with an EV it takes a bit longer instead of straight away.

          • Cluster on 24/09/2024 - 11:44
            +3

            @DingoBilly: People keep saying an ICE vehicle drops 30% in value as soon as you drive it out of the dealership, but has anyone ever actually tried this to see if it's true?

            I bought a $34k new car earlier this year. 30% is $10.2k, so where could I find the same car with 20km on the clock selling for $23.8k? I would have eagerly purchased it. Yet, these don't actually exist.

            • pegaxs on 24/09/2024 - 12:30
              +1

              @Cluster: 30% isnt a far exaggeration, but take your car down to another car yard and see what they will give you as a trade in.

              They are going to knock 10% off it right up front because they are not paying you GST on your private car. Then you can deduct the “dealer delivery” because they are not paying you for that either. Then there is their profit margin they need to add in, and that’s usually about 10+% allowance.

              If you bought a brand new car for $34k, it wouldn’t be unexpected for a dealership to offer you a “wholesale” offer of around 30% off the vehicle…

              Ironically, this applies to EV’s as well and would exclude any “in high demand” vehicle models. So, every new car gets this initial depreciation kick in the arse and isn’t solely an “ICE” thing.

    • kungfuman on 24/09/2024 - 09:31
      -8

      i felt sorry for you comment getting negs so I gave you a + for your comment.

    • smartazz104 on 24/09/2024 - 09:36
      +14

      As opposed to most ICE cars that don’t lose their value?

      • altomic on 24/09/2024 - 10:14
        +9

        my Skoda is actually worth more than what I paid for it 5 years ago……according to the voices in my head.

        • ThithLord on 24/09/2024 - 11:02

          according to the voices in my head.

          At least you're honest, not delusional

        • pegaxs on 24/09/2024 - 12:32

          Not gonna lie, you had me in the first half…

      • jv on 24/09/2024 - 11:05

        As opposed to most ICE cars that don’t lose their value?

        🚗

        • pegaxs on 24/09/2024 - 12:51

          Why not use this ICE car as your example, it’s just as equally useless…

        • smartazz104 on 26/09/2024 - 11:54
          +1

          Ok now post a common car, like maybe the one you own right now…

          • jv on 26/09/2024 - 11:55

            @smartazz104: 🚗

            • pegaxs on 27/09/2024 - 13:05

              @jv: So you just posted the exact same bad and irrelevant example…

              Pricing insights;

              27 Feb 23 - $100,000
              14 Apr 24 - $110,000
              24 Sep 24 - $100,000

              This shitbox that you are using as an example, jv, has been listed for over a year and a half and has not sold. It had a price rise, then a price drop. It hasn’t sold, so it’s a really bad example of an ICE car that hasn’t lost its value.

              “Asking price” is not the same as “worth” or “value”

              When it sells, let me know… got a feeling at that price it’s still going to be here this time next year…

    • jay889344 on 24/09/2024 - 09:37
      +14

      I'd bet the gap in depreciation is more than made up for in money saved not spending on petrol and servicing/repairs. I was spending $80 - $100 a week previously on petrol. Since buying my EV a year ago, haven't paid a single dollar for charging, so thats about $4 - $5K saved the last year.

      Then there is the real killer - servicing/repairs. I was holding my breath every time I took my car for service previously for the 'this filter needs replacement. That gasket is broken. Oil leaked and so we'll have to charge you about $400 labour to clean it all out.' The unbudgeted expenses that comes up with ICE cars is such a pain in the a$$. Also, that was a beautiful car so before anyone starts on some 'probably a s#&tbox' BS, it was a meticulously looked after 2017 Mercedes CLA.

      In another example, took my wife's 2018 Sportage for servicing last month. Logbook service was meant to be $395. Ended up paying around $800 all up for all the extra stuff they needed to do/replace. You just don't have to worry about that with EVs.

      • Davesday on 24/09/2024 - 09:52
        +1

        I've been curious about this actually. Surely you will need to pay for electricity. If you're charging at home, you will incur some extra expense no matter your electricity rates. Unless you're using charging terminals offering free charging? If you've been charging at home, would you be able to share an estimate on how much more you had to pay for your home electricity?

        • WhyAmICommenting on 24/09/2024 - 09:56
          +2

          I heard recently even at full electricity cost you are looking at $12 or $15 to “fill” the EV’s “tank”.

          Then there’s discount off peak plans etc on top.

          • [Deactivated] on 24/09/2024 - 09:59

            @WhyAmICommenting: "discount off peak plans etc on top."

            Usually comes with more expensive peak usage.

          • Davesday on 24/09/2024 - 10:08
            +2

            @WhyAmICommenting: So conservatively speaking, assuming a max of $15 (of electricity) per tank and assuming a fully charged EV has the same mileage of a single tank of petrol of an average car… that means you save about $100-$15 = $85 per fill up?

            I don't currently own an EV but I have driven one for a day. The estimates seem to be around 300-350km of city driving which is about 77% of what my current car is doing (~450km per tank). So that is closer to $22 to charge the EV before electricity discounts and off peaks. I guess that is still very good as long as I charge it at home and only use it for city commutes. I think they can maintain their efficiency when driven below 100kph and with moderate AC usage.

            • taki on 24/09/2024 - 10:38

              @Davesday: Most modern EVs reach 320-480 kilometrage (metric 1970+, Europe 1795+ ;) New BYD Seal 07 PHEV does 2000km+ (7x / year refuel :)
              If you drive around CBD or busy roads then ICEs can be very expensive for fuel & maintenance

              • Davesday on 24/09/2024 - 10:50

                @taki: Thanks @taki, that is very encouraging. I am of the same opinion: EV for city commute. But if I can only have one car, I think a PHEV makes more sense. Enough EV mileage for 1-2 days city commute and enough range for longer drives or road trips.

          • ddilrat on 24/09/2024 - 11:03

            @WhyAmICommenting: Yeah about $10 for a "tank"but that's only 400km ish

        • [Deactivated] on 24/09/2024 - 09:57
          -1

          "Unless you're using charging terminals offering free charging? If you've been charging at home, would you be able to share an estimate on how much more you had to pay for your home electricity?"

          Add maths illiteracy to that too.

        • d2567 on 24/09/2024 - 10:11
          +3

          AGL EV nightsaver plan, 8 cents kW after midnight, so about $4/ week instead of $70-80 petrol, service costs gone down to $99/ year, previously around $800-$1000/ year. Previous car required servicing every 6 months
          Power bill gone down too as rest of power down 10 cents a kW over previous price and daily charge now down to 79 cents. Also program dishwasher and washing machine to run in the cheap hours.
          No overpriced impulse purchases from service station ( chocolate/ Mentos).
          Usually purchase a new car with every 3-4 years( around 95 000km) as servicing costs skyrocket.
          With EV assume the running costs won't skyrocket at 100 000 km so likely to hold onto it for much longer.
          We have a diesel van for holidaying but our everyday drive is an EV and charging at home is so convenient.
          If charging at home isn't an option then maybe wouldn't suggest an EV as commercial chargers can be pricey ( still cheaper than fuel), some chargers such as jolt will give you 7 kW free every day though.

          • [Deactivated] on 24/09/2024 - 10:14

            @d2567: Yes. Optiomall use case and I am in the process of doing the same. (Finding the right PHEV)

            "We have a diesel van for holidaying but our everyday drive is an EV and charging at home is so convenient.
            If charging at home isn't an option then maybe wouldn't suggest an EV as commercial chargers can be pricey ( still cheaper than fuel), some chargers such as jolt will give you 7 kW free every day though."

        • klaw81 on 24/09/2024 - 10:20
          +3

          I use Origin Energy's EV charging plan, which allows me to charge my car at 8c/kWh during off-peak times (typically late night and mid-day). A "full tank" costs less than $5 for ~420km of driving. Compared to paying for fuel, the cost of extra electricity is almost negligible.

          I kept meticulous records of running costs for my previous car ( a very economical diesel Mondeo) for comparison, and so far it's costing about $2200 a year less to drive my EV, in both fuel costs (-$1500) and reduced maintenance costs (-$800). My annual insurance premium is a little higher (+$150) but still quite similar to other cars of that age and market value.

        • bleugh on 24/09/2024 - 10:28
          +2

          Solar!
          13.2kWp system here,
          So over two days in spring, summer, autumn I can fully charge my BYD seal, for free!

          Realistically, I slow the charger down a little from its max of 7kW to purely use solar!

          During peak times (about 1/3rd of the year) I produce nearly 80kWh a day!
          The car only needs 84kWh to fill the battery!!

          During winter, my poorly oriented and badly shaded solar makes just enough excess to cover the daily school run..

          • WhyAmICommenting on 24/09/2024 - 11:20
            +1

            @bleugh: What charger do you have that allows this?

            • bleugh on 24/09/2024 - 11:23
              +1

              @WhyAmICommenting: ZJ Beny wifi / Bluetooth enabled
              Just about to install the solar DLB that will tweak it automatically to only use excess solar!

              Cost me $650 from ultipower flow back in April,
              And another $125 last month for the solar DLB

              Installed by a sparky here , cost under $1k as he was here for other work!

        • Protractor on 24/09/2024 - 10:50

          This will be the next conflict zone. Public charger sites.I'm not convinced the charger providers can currently keep up with the number of EVs coming on stream.Pretty sure as many ppl as possible want to use work or public charge locations, when possible to reduce costs. I also wonder how many dodgy DIY at home EV charger setups there are out there, and whether the load in some locations may 'bump' local transformers.Especially in peak weather (temp) events.

          • klaw81 on 24/09/2024 - 11:01

            @Protractor: Public charger sites are being built out quite quickly. The number of new installations each month has been quite impressive.

            Pretty sure as many ppl as possible want to use work or public charge locations, when possible to reduce costs

            I am not sure that's true. Charging at home should be possible for about 50% of the population. Charging at work would be great, but it pre-supposes that sufficient carparking is available at workplaces, which is pretty dubious in a lot of places.

            I also wonder how many dodgy DIY at home EV charger setups there are out there, and whether the load in some locations may 'bump' local transformers.

            It's a legitimate concern, but it's not a massive risk. Basic home chargers don't draw any more current than an electric oven, and are plenty fast enough for the average commuter.

            If everyone switched to EVs tomorrow, the overall load on the electricity grid would only be increased by about 8% - that's not nothing, but it's not massive either - and a gradual transition will make it quite manageable.

        • jay889344 on 24/09/2024 - 10:50

          So the reason it hasn't cost me anything to charge are that lots of places offer free charging. So within 10 mins of my place, I have 2 large shopping centres with either 2 or 3 Tesla destination chargers and I go to the gym at one of these everyday. So once or twice a week, I plug it in when I arrive and that generally carries me over to the next week.

          There is also another Charging provider called Jolt. They do 7 free KW a day, which for my EV is about 10%. Most days I WFH so going to the gym and back is just 3 - 4% anyway, so for me that would work if I couldn't charge at the shops.

          If I couldn't do any of this and was just charging at home, I'd use my night saver energy plan. Its 8 cents/KwH between 12 - 6am so even a full charge would only be about $5 but I've yet to had to charge at home

          • Davesday on 24/09/2024 - 10:56
            +1

            @jay889344: I will have to implement the Ozbargain way of life on my car if I go EV hahaha…

          • [Deactivated] on 24/09/2024 - 10:56

            @jay889344: "If I couldn't do any of this and was just charging at home, I'd use my night saver energy plan. Its 8 cents/KwH between 12 - 6am so even a full charge would only be about $5 but I've yet to had to charge at home"

            So this is not "free" or cost a single penny? What's the peak hours rate? (All providers are higher when such plan is selected, at least 3 weeks ago when I have looked).

            That sounds like a lot of aweful detour just to get free electricity. Also guessing you don't have kids.

            • jay889344 on 24/09/2024 - 11:02

              @[Deactivated]: You are not the sharpest dude are you? I said I'd paid nothing because I was plugging in when I gym/shop or use Jolt. I also said "IF I was charging at home" which I'm not, so saying 'sEe iT dOeS cOsT mOneY' when I don't do that is just a dumb argument. I don't go at all out of my way to charge because I've been going to the same gym for the last 10 years and charge there whilst I'm there anyway. Good try though

              You need to learn to think/read before typing my man.

              Also why are we talking about kids now? Try stay on topic

              • [Deactivated] on 24/09/2024 - 11:05

                @jay889344: I am not. I am blunt with comments and not making friends along the way.

                So you have or have not charged at home? Comments are conflicting.

                It is on topic - the inconvenience of hunting down a charger. You are on top of the game and very organised on how to allocate the 24hours in a day.

      • [Deactivated] on 24/09/2024 - 09:53

        "haven't paid a single dollar for charging"

        How do you charge your car?

        PS. 'a s#&tbox' and 'Mercedes CLA' do go together in a single sentence. How do I know? Just gotten rid of one owned from 2016 since new - the amount of issues is bizzare.

        Not bad for such an old car, still managed $19k trade in. New was near $70k.

        "Don't have to worry about that with EVs" it statement is worrying. Some essential consumables needs to be replaced - brake fluid. Otherwise, a routine inspection of the brakes. But, definitely easy/lesser on an EV than ICE.

        • Alx75 on 24/09/2024 - 10:46

          He lives in an illusion that it's "free" because he's charging from his Tesla battery that's powered by his solar panels. Ignoring the fact that solar+battery cost him $20K, at least, and he needs to pay that off first to be able to claim any "savings". That alone will take 15 years, and his home battery will start degrading after 10 years, if not sooner. The EV's range will be halved by then.

          • jay889344 on 24/09/2024 - 10:53
            -1

            @Alx75: LOL do you want to try for a few more plain wrong assumptions? I don't have solar. I don't have a battery either. Good try though. Your whole paragraph is a fictional story

            • Alx75 on 24/09/2024 - 10:59
              -1

              @jay889344: Your "paid 0" is fictional too. I have solar and that still can't cover my whole electricity bill during autumn/winter months. Yet you manage to charge your car for "free" without panels and home battery. Cool story bro.

          • [Deactivated] on 24/09/2024 - 10:53

            @Alx75: We have solar installed (no EV) yet, it doesn't make financial sense (excel modelling indicated 6-8years ROI). This is now at 15 years post FiT being axed.

            • Alx75 on 24/09/2024 - 11:01

              @[Deactivated]: I know, I'm in the same boat. But he still manages to pay nothing, even without solar or home battery… sure…

              • Protractor on 24/09/2024 - 11:55

                @Alx75: Stealing from the energy provider,neighbour or workplace,perhaps.Maybe that's why 'deactivated'.He left too many breadcrumbs…

            • Fredfloresjr on 24/09/2024 - 11:01
              +2

              @jay889344: To be honest OP, not much sense you will get arguing with these Petrol boys. Seriously, they are like Vegans and Android boys. In short, always present just to argue their point.

              They will never understand that there are heaps of charging spots that offer free charging. But yeah, don't bother. Not worth it.

              They are also the same person flexing their petrol at the same time complaining when petrol price is high.

              • jay889344 on 24/09/2024 - 19:22

                @Fredfloresjr: Yeah they're morons. Thats for sure. LOL

                Also idiots who don't even know what TCO is, let alone how to figure it out. You'll see em hooning down quiet back streets in their loud s#&tboxes though. They're so cool

            • Alx75 on 24/09/2024 - 11:05
              -1

              @jay889344: It wasn't a "lie", it was obviously an "assumption". As there is no way electricity is "free" in any scenario, yet you claim you charge for $0 and without having solar or home battery, care to explain where your "free" electricity is coming from?

      • Fredfloresjr on 24/09/2024 - 10:58

        100%…

        No F'ing way I will be putting petrol again. NAH!!

      • sumyungguy on 24/09/2024 - 11:09

        Here's a recent report on operating costs. Even if you never pay to charge, an EV appears to be more expensive to own and run than an equivalent ICE. So either you're not winning on costs or this data is wrong? OzB is about saving money.

        • [Deactivated] on 25/09/2024 - 15:36

          Depends. The FBT is what makes it worth while from a financial point of view (ignore other points of disagreement).

          A friend bought with his private company and supplies to him for personal use. The only cost is the financing cost (opportunity cost of reinvesting retained earnings). So effectively 45% off (top bracket) + saving of GST.

          Less so for the BS novated lease arrangement where end users merely get the crumb.

        • z28 on 25/09/2024 - 17:00

          Do you have the report ? Few items I would like to know:

          Standing cost - what is it ?
          Total cost per month - How is this calculated ?

    • Iwantthatbargain on 24/09/2024 - 10:11

      I am a Tesla owner, but I kind of agree with you. Forget about depreciation, even the Tesla themselves have reduced close to $10K than what I had originally paid for

      • [Deactivated] on 24/09/2024 - 10:15

        The rate of depreciation on an EV is scary and looks it will continue for some time.

        • gakko on 24/09/2024 - 10:27
          +2

          It reflects the tech improvement rate in product and in production. It'll slow down but in the mean time I'm fine with it because it just means the cars are improving at a rapid pace.

          • klaw81 on 24/09/2024 - 10:31
            +1

            @gakko: I'm fine with it because it means I got my car at a very substantial discount compared to RRP. Cheap EVs is good for almost everyone.

            • Protractor on 24/09/2024 - 12:02

              @klaw81: Not if in the near future there's piles of dead or "repair un-affordable" wrecks being stockpiled. The green cred of EVs is way overstated if you factor in it's whole of life footprint.(Including batteries)

              I can seriously see multiple issues (especially the grid) in the medium term if we continue along the road we are on, where we expect a different result from doing the same stoopid shite..

              • klaw81 on 24/09/2024 - 12:57
                -1

                @Protractor:

                Not if in the near future there's piles of dead or "repair un-affordable" wrecks being stockpiled.

                There's no reason to expect this to happen - at least not in Australia. Perhaps in China where they developed so many low-quality EVs too fast.

                The green cred of EVs is way overstated if you factor in it's whole of life footprint.(Including batteries)

                Absolutely false - this has been disproven many times. They're not a silver bullet solution all to the world's problems, but represent at least 50% reduction in emissions from private transport - more as our electricity grid decarbonizes.

                I can seriously see multiple issues (especially the grid) in the medium term if we continue along the road we are on

                The grid will be fine. Estimates suggest that switching every private and fleet car in Australia overnight would only increase grid demand by about 8%. Given we expect a gradual transition over the next 10-15 years, that's pretty easy to manage.

                • [Deactivated] on 24/09/2024 - 14:42

                  @klaw81: "Estimates suggest that switching every private and fleet car in Australia overnight would only increase grid demand by about 8%."

                  Peak? Grids being overloaded during summer without EVs. Can imagine it will only add to the load.

                  "Absolutely false - this has been disproven many times. They're not a silver bullet solution all to the world's problems, but represent at least 50% reduction in emissions from private transport - more as our electricity grid decarbonizes."

                  There are points which experts disagree on. Absolutely not absolute.

                  Depends on lifecycle, Volvo has done a great report on two comparable vehicles. Breakeven point is 50,000km to 110,000km, depending on how the electricity is generated. Works for some, but not all. My folks sold their 15 years Camry with 60000km on the clock.

                  https://www.volvocars.com/images/v/-/media/market-assets/int…

                  • klaw81 on 24/09/2024 - 14:50

                    @[Deactivated]:

                    Grids being overloaded during summer without EVs.

                    That's why grid operators are keen on incentives and/or legislation to ensure home charging is a controlled load they can shed if necessary. This is a very sensible precaution, and not particularly difficult to achieve.

                    However, the increasing role of rooftop solar during peak summer should offset the worst of summer peaks in coming years. There's about 23 gigawatts of rooftop solar capacity sitting behind meters around the country, and solar capacity potential is directly correlated to AC usage.

                    • [Deactivated] on 24/09/2024 - 14:51

                      @klaw81: "That's why grid operators are keen on incentives and/or legislation to ensure home charging is a controlled load they can shed if necessary. This is a very sensible precaution, and not particularly difficult to achieve."

                      They also have a problem with too much being fed during certain period, which also overloads the grid. Partly explains the drop in FiT.

                      Clearly, it's not an easy fix. Once people understands the complexity in the electricity market (generate, transmit, wholesale, retail), they will then understand the mess embedded in such a critical piece of public infrastructure that liberal privatised (sold) over the years.

                      • klaw81 on 24/09/2024 - 14:58

                        @[Deactivated]:

                        They also have a problem with too much being fed during certain period, which also overloads the grid.

                        Sure. Which is an issue that EVs can also help to solve, with the appropriate incentives in place. This stuff is not difficult, it simply requires a change of attitude and approach.

                        To be clear, over-production of energy is not a bug, it's a necessary feature that's vital to an energy grid that relies on renewable energy sources. Over-production allows consumption and storage simultaneously, so that demand can be supplied while energy is stored to be used when production is low.

                        This is intentional, but the transition is currently unbalanced - there has been lots of investment in generation over the past 5 years, but not so much storage yet. That will change in coming years, as several of the planned pumped hydro and grid batteries begin to come online.

                        There are points which experts disagree on. Absolutely not absolute.

                        It's still absolutely false.

                        Even Volvo's report you have cited but which is widely considered to be rather pessimistic, disproves the claim - they nominate a break-even point whose worst-case bound is around half of a vehicle's typical lifespan (assumed to be 20 years for the purpose of comparison).

                        • [Deactivated] on 24/09/2024 - 15:14

                          @klaw81: "Sure. Which is an issue that EVs can also help to solve, with the appropriate incentives in place. This stuff is not difficult, it simply requires a change of attitude and approach."

                          This is the exact problem in Australia with public asset being sold out by Liberal. Technical solution itself is not difficult. Politically, it will be expensive for various state/territory governments, given all funky ownerships (vested ownership) on various parts of the public asset.

                          "lifespan" - ice carbon footprint is largely usage/mileage based, oppose to EV is upfront heavy in carbon footprint. At day 0, and the produced vehicle sits ideal, ICE will win regardless the number of years that they two will remain idle. For delivery vehicles that clocks up app 30000km/year, Breakeven point is likely much soon - 2-3 years.

                          Outcome of any research is very dependable on variables/input - same as all financial models.

                          In the case of my folks usage, which is not uncommon for Sydney (biggest population in Australia). The Volvo report is very optoimistic.

                          Not trying to state a point whether EV/ICE is the correct approach. Input can change output of any hypothesis. Merely to point out that is not an absolute - otherwise will leave no room for debate/discussion. Clearly not the case here.

                          This will change the day that solid state battery is ready for mass deployment. Then, the argument will be 99% absolute.

                          • klaw81 on 24/09/2024 - 15:22

                            @[Deactivated]:

                            In the case of my folks usage, which is not uncommon for Sydney

                            Your scenario is a distinct outlier - less than 1/3rd of the average Australian private vehicle at ~12,600km/year. So yes, statistics suggest it's quite uncommon. It makes no sense to make any kind of analysis on such anomalies.

                            • [Deactivated] on 24/09/2024 - 15:23

                              @klaw81: You can call the outlier as 1/100 for all you want, it is then, supports that this is not an absolute case.

                              Green washing over the last 10 years has created many backyard experts in sustainability/chemical engineering/statisticians.

                              • klaw81 on 24/09/2024 - 15:27

                                @[Deactivated]:

                                Green washing over the last 10 years has created many backyard experts in sustainability/chemical engineering/statisticians.

                                You could equally say the same about people who repeat the nonsense about certain mining techniques we see cited in this thread. Based on a kernel of truth, but without any substance.

                                • [Deactivated] on 24/09/2024 - 15:34

                                  @klaw81: Yes. Therefore, not many statements are absolute.

                                  Even equally qualified expert opinions can have opposite views.

                                  This will likely change when solid state battery is available. At least settle many of the current unsettled points from an end user point of view.

                  • smartazz104 on 26/09/2024 - 12:13

                    @[Deactivated]:

                    My folks sold their 15 years Camry with 60000km on the clock.

                    4000 km a year, even an EV's range would be too much for them…

                    • [Deactivated] on 26/09/2024 - 12:51
                      +1

                      @smartazz104: Not necessarily, they don't do average 20-30km trips like me. Either a few KMs out to the shops, or long drives. Being elderly means trying to use a digital device to map out a trip is counter intuitive. Problem with Australia is alack of infrastructure and battery technology has a long way to go.

                      We are heading up to QLD and hired a car. The apartment (in Brisbane CBD) does not have EV charging. With a tight schedule, won't have the luxury of time to hunt down a charging station or sit around to wait for it to charge - yes, mere 30 minutes is alot of time. So, hired a 250kws ICE instead.

                      Things will look very different in 10 years time.

      • taki on 24/09/2024 - 11:00
        +1

        That's why you buy cheaper models until batt tech is drastically improved (sodium) & Chinese competition slows down.
        The older model can stay as 2nd or kids later. MG4 EV '23 ~$27k new ;)

    • Skearn on 24/09/2024 - 09:23
      +13

      https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-27/comparing-electric-ca…

      To produce sure, to run for a few years the equation flips.

      • gadget on 24/09/2024 - 09:34

        For the average short distance city commuter that's actually quite a few years.

        • sm3004 on 24/09/2024 - 09:55
          +9

          Are you including how they charge? there are too many factors to make a blanket statement. Truth is, even in the WORST case scenario possible, EV's produce half as much emissions over their entire life cycle vs a petrol car. Numbers don't lie, no matter how much it hurts your feelings.

          • gadget on 24/09/2024 - 11:40
            +2

            @sm3004: My feelings aren't hurt by facts.

            As you say it's "over their ENTIRE life cycle". It takes quite a few kms before EVs start getting better overall compared to ICE especially in dirty power Australia. Your average city commuter may or may not make it that far, and before you start not everyone has solar.

      • Alx75 on 24/09/2024 - 10:40
        -6

        Ah, the ABC… the same reliable source of information that told you "it's safe and effective" and that you're going to die if you don't barricade yourself inside your home. Bring on the negs! 🤣

        • sm3004 on 24/09/2024 - 11:12
          +2

          As opposed to the facebook memes where you get your EV "news" from? Apparently it's a miracle i haven't burned alive in my tesla yet according to 5head geniuses like yourself.

          How do balance the love of right wing ideology that the moron Elon spews from his stupid mouth with the hate you have towards the "woke" people that own EVs? Your brain must be very very confused.

        • klaw81 on 24/09/2024 - 11:13

          They were proven absolutely correct on "safe and effective" and your other claim is utterly false (feel free to link the articles to prove me wrong…)

        • CurlCurl on 24/09/2024 - 12:03

          Yep

          The same ABC that added gunshots to a video news item from Afghanistan.

        • Protractor on 24/09/2024 - 12:05
          +2

          O-oh, I think someone just dug up the cooker burrow.

    • klaw81 on 24/09/2024 - 09:28
      +4

      EVs are currently no more environmentally sound than driving a small petrol car.

      This claim is almost certainly false. A comparison between a Kia EV9 and a Kia Picanto might end up fairly similar at 100,000km, which puts things into perspective.

      It really only makes sense to compare ICE and EV of the same size/class. People tend to choose a vehicle based primarily on utility (number of seats, how much luggage/cargo space etc.) rather than their environmental impact.

      • gakko on 24/09/2024 - 10:29
        +3

        It's definitely false. The question has been studied and evs come ahead versus ice, including vehicle production which ice has had decades to finesse.

        • taki on 24/09/2024 - 11:14

          EVs are better than Hybrids too ;)

      • Alx75 on 24/09/2024 - 10:33
        -1

        You fail to understand the sentence you quoted…

        You can't compare just from the moment they're on the road. The amount of oil that goes is production of an EV and "emissions" generated as a consequence of mining and manufacturing also count. Google how much earth needs to me moved/mined for a ton of lithium and how much water is later used to refine it. Nothing "green" about it. What you "compensate" on road (by not having exhaust fumes) is lost in the process of producing the car and mining for the materials.

        • klaw81 on 24/09/2024 - 10:52
          +1

          You can't compare just from the moment they're on the road.

          I'm absolutely not. Those figures include the carbon footprint of the mining and manufacturing of the car. The ABC did an article on this not long ago, and it's been linked in this discussion a number of times for your reference - but before you scoff, the figures are not from the ABC themselves, but sourced from the European Transport Authority (from memory - need to confirm the exact name).

          The basic equation is that an EV drives out of the dealership with roughly double the carbon footprint of an equivalent ICE vehicle, but that quickly changes as the cars are driven. A typical EV SUV charged using the Australian electricity grid will have an equal carbon footprint after 20-40,000km to its ICE SUV cousin, and beyond that, the ICE just falls far behind. By 180,000km it's almost double the EV.

          This is simply because people vastly under-estimate the amount of emissions associated with driving - it's only a couple hundred grams per kilometre, but really adds up each year.

          Google how much earth needs to me moved/mined for a ton of lithium and how much water is later used to refine it.

          The lithium mining quotes you see in Facebook memes are deeply inaccurate, and have been widely debunked. They over-estimate the quantities involved by a factor of 10, even if you assume worst case scenarios, and are not even applicable in many lithium mining operations.

          Now have a look at the amount of energy and resources required to extract oil from the ground, refine it into the products you can actually use, transport it halfway around the world, distribute it across the country with semi-trailers, and pump it into your car.

          The estimates I've seen put it at ~4x the energy contained within the fuel itself….and remember that only 1/3rd of the energy you put in the car ends up propelling the vehicle, while the rest is lost as noise, vibration and heat.

          • Protractor on 24/09/2024 - 12:12

            @klaw81: The water alone to mine most minerals is fkn massive.There's dust suppression on roads,conveyors,plants,stockpiles(both ends) and the actual processing relies entirely on great big Sydney Harbours full of water.
            The micro & macro of mining production carbon footprints of most commodities is hufknmungous, compared to the % of pure ore at the end.Even lithium.

            And I suspect that's why all those lithium mines are closing, L R Centre.
            The way mines get finite ancient potable water for free or ultra cheap to wash rocks is criminal negligence.

            • klaw81 on 24/09/2024 - 12:23

              @Protractor:

              And I suspect that's why all those lithium mines are closing, L R Centre.

              I suspect it's mostly because an awful lot of miners tried to scale up quickly to meet the 2023 EV boom, and now there's a massive supply glut. Have a look at the share price of lithium mining companies.

              Yes, water usage in mines is pretty crazy. There needs to be more oversight on this. Thankfully, a large proportion of lithium mining happens in Australia where there's half-decent environmental regulations.

              • Protractor on 24/09/2024 - 12:27

                @klaw81: half-decent

                • klaw81 on 24/09/2024 - 12:37

                  @Protractor: Yeah, I don't have a lot of confidence in mining companies, even in Australia. We've seen an awful lot of shenanigans that gets exposed every year or two, and enforcement of their regulatory obligations seems to be pretty lax a lot of the time.

    • smartazz104 on 24/09/2024 - 09:40
      +7

      Why pretend you care for the environment?

    • hymio on 24/09/2024 - 09:42

      The buses are also electric tho?????????

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