Got bub on the way, looking to upgrade from hatch to SUV/CUV.
So was scanning carsales and boy everything from 2014 onwards, < 150km, are just Captivas and Cherokees and starting to see more Tiguans. What's up with them?
Shoot your personal recs for used SUV/CUV with space for pram and car seat. $15k ish.
Figures
off the top of my head
Holden is a dead brand anyway… and these shitheaps were made by Daewoo which was a z-tier Korean manfuacturer
Jeep is an Ateco importer and they and the Americans treat the Australian market as if its not worth the bother
theyre designed and built by lazy Americans who could not give a shit
Thanks 🙏
Ateco does not import Jeep, you might be thinking RAM. Stellantis have a local head office, based in Port Melbourne
@tonyjzx I had a series of Korean housemates a few decades ago. One asked what I thought of Korean cars.
I said Hyundai were good now but Kia & Daewoo weren't great.
He said "Mr Binary, not even Korean people will buy Daewoo" 🤣🤣
made by Daewoo which was a z-tier Korean manfuacturer
They don't exist as car manufacturers anymore. They were taken over by… wait for it… GM, and that's why we have these GM "Daewoo" cars like Captivas and Sparks and Cruze and Epicas and what not.
I (dad) was the first owner of a Cherokee.
Was such a shit heap (1.5 years old and less than 15k km, but already had a transmission replaced) that we felt guilty even trying to sell it privately so traded in for a massive loss. Lemon laws are worth fk all and Jeep are notorious for denying warranty claims.
They're so cheap now, that if you have mechanical skills, they'd be a great buy. Just buy 4-5 parts cars to swap things when needed lol.
When they work, they are great cars. Super comfy and feel way more premium compared to their price tag.
Unfortunately, that's the lure for unsuspecting buyers who think Jeep is robust, then they get absolutely reamed.
I hear so much negativity from Jeep owners. Stories of them being lemons.
Yet Jeep still sells so well…
Dafuq?
People are stupid.
If you think I'm exaggerating, google what percentage of car buyers get a loan or other finance in order to buy a more expensive car than they can afford.
(Hint: it rhymes with glinety flacent).
haha i know Teg personally (the guy who made that song) hes a top bloke, ours was having the issues at the same time as his and he was vocal on forums.
Was chatting to him about the approach I should be taking as he'd just been through his. Unfortunately given the shitness of our lemon laws the process to get your money back was extensive and relied on you making a lot of noise. Had family things pop up at the same so copped the L on the chin
The best and only answer. End of thread.
I got a Cherokee as a rental a few years back, one of the most god awful cars I’ve ever driven. I can’t remember what was particularly bad, the steering and road noise was awful, but I walked away never wanting to drive one again.
I usually drove hybrid corollas at the time, so it’s not like I had expensive tastes.
This is a separate point but I find it amazing the number of people who want to buy a car without test driving it. They want to do the research behind the safety of a computer screen and look at specs all day. Some of my mates ask me which of the two or three cars I would recommend (not sure why, I'm not an expert or anything) and I always say "go and test drive them first and then ask me again" and most of the time that solves their query.
Just saying, that a standard car can fit a pram and car seat, but for a second kiddie, it may be an issue.
You could go for something like the Mazda CX 5.
Yeh I have a focus right now and it's tight. Hardly any space in the boot.
CX5 I heard has a boot space limitation (something to do with the width of the opening?)
I don’t regret upgrading to an SUV for a baby. It’s not just the space for a pram it’s also the working height when getting them in and out of the car and doing their straps. You don’t have to stoop down as much and risk your lower back. I got a Honda CRV and have been happy with it, still going strong with no issues after 5 years. The doors open really wide and it’s a bit taller than many other of the SUVs in its class and year.
Yes, it's quite the gift when they arch their back with the power of He-Man to avoid you buckling them in.
Why not something like a odyssey with dual sliding doors make it even easier and a low boot make lurching that pram in super easy?
I
I've got two kids and a CX5. Its not the biggest boot in its class but its absolutely fine for big trips and prams. Also a super reliable car.
Totally agree, we love our CX-5 and the boot space is fine.
I bought my wife a Mitsubishi Outlander with 2 kids and it is excellent - heaps of room, quiet (we have the PHEV) and great to drive.
Why did you buy 2 kids? Did they have to come with the car or were they extra? Whose kids were they?
So many questions…
I'm glad Outlander is excellent, but how about those second hand kids? Any lemon laws applicable to them?
Hardly any space in the boot.
I had a travel pram for long trips. Cheaper option than upgrading a car. You get to use that when you on overseas trips as well.
Yep we keep it in the space behind the passenger seat and your boot is clear
Width is fine it just isnt huge. But I do love driving the CX5. Higher spec models have useful things like seat memory if you share a car.
CX5's dont have a huge boot, it is quite short, a wagon would be longer. For example on the CX5 you can only put the pram in sideways, but a long wagon it can go straight in, fit two of them in there.
SUV is mainly for increased ride height, not storage.
A small car fits 2 car seats and a pram in the boot without any issues at all.
Anyone claiming they need a bigger car for that is making excuses for wanting a bigger car.
(Usually the real reason is we waited until 40 before having kids and our backs get sore bending down to strap the kids in. Or we just want to keep up with the Joneses, despite the Joneses being financially illiterate).
Zero truth to it.
Comments regarding lower back had me baffled. I’d forgotten how many parents are old.
Carrington Car Co can be blamed for Captivas
Theres nothing like loading up a single mum with bad credit and giving her a craptiva lol
I had this customer once, single mum with 4 kids. She had a Chrysler with tons of issues and the poor lady was just pouring money in until we told her that it's not worth it anymore.
She got rid of it and bought a Diesel Captiva. Some people have no hope.
That Facebook page is the gift that keeps on giving.
Only two more sleeps till Friday!
Shoot your personal recs for used SUV/CUV with space for pram and car seat. $15k ish.
Your current car will fit a pram and car seat, unless you're driving a Mazda MX-5 or something.
Why do expecting parents become obsessed with buying an SUV? I mean, my parents fit two car seats and all of our stuff into a 1970s Toyota Corolla Seca, and when I had my kid, I fit our family into my trusty old 2007 Toyota Corolla Conquest Sedan which I bought when I was in university.
Just stick with your current car, babies hardly leave the house in the first few months anyway. You can always buy a new car later.
FWIW, actually have a plan of what you intend to carry and see if it all fits in your current car, or if it will even fit into an SUV you intend to buy. Most SUVs are just hatchbacks on stilts and don't actually offer any more space (Mazda CX-5, for example, is just a raised Mazda 3, similarly people buy cars like Yaris / Corolla Crosses not realising they have less room than a Camry…etc.)
Keep your $15k man, don't buy into the car manufacturer propaganda of SUVs being "family cars", your car is just fine, take your family on a nice holiday instead.
(Mazda CX-5, for example, is just a raised Mazda 3
you're thinking of the CX30.
The CX5 is not a Mazda 3, it's a different platform and is certainly large enough as an SUV. (the CX30 though, is not).
Yeah, you are right, the CX-30 is the raised Mazda 3.
However, I think my point still stands, which is that SUVs often do not have the size advantages which people like to think they do compared to a more traditional sedan or hatchbank. For example, my comparison between the Camry and the Corolla Cross visualised:
https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/toyota-camry-2017-s…
The Camry has more cargo volume (524L vs. 425L), meaning it can physically carry more stuff (though granted the shape of a sedan boot may be less versatile, but let's not pretend like it's small), has a longer wheelbase (282.5cm vs. 264cm), meaning there's more space for the rear passengers, not to mention that it's a cheaper car, and more readily available.
FWIW, I think the craze around SUVs only benefits car manufacturers. In many cases, you are paying a lot of money for little more than an elevated height and "fitting in" with the other parents who own an SUV.
yes, SUVs are over-rated for 'space' compared to regular wagons – the Mazda CX5 has less space than the Mazda 6 wagon (or the sedan for that matter). The hype for SUVs might have to do with anxious parents driving with better/higher seating? Though in terms of safety and handling, the regular wagon or sedan would easily be better than the SUV…
This. I dare the audience here to name a 5 seater SUV out there that has more cabin and boot space than a Ford Mondeo or a Skoda Octavia.
@ytthr: We've owned both with 3 kids (Octavia hatch first then Mondeo wagon). Awesome family cars, the wagon boot was so big you could wheel the off-road pram in unfolded (just flip the handle down). Swallowed furniture, bikes, dogs with ease. When it was old and dirt cheap to insure my eldest learned to drive in it as well.
When it finally crumbled at 13 years old we had to get a SUV because no wagons were within budget and for the first time I had to ask myself "will it fit in the car? ", it was a rude shock
@ytthr: That explains why we have so few of them on the roads. What people don't realise is there are many more practical and reliable cars out there than Japanese and Korean SUVs
@ytthr: Octavia and Mondeo are both excellent vehicles - reliable drivetrains and very practical layout with enormous amounts of space, and their driving dynamics are far better than any SUV thanks to the much lower centre of gravity, and excellent economy too thanks to reduced frontal area.
People are stupid about cars. There's a reason that every sales rep in the country used to drive a Mondeo or similar.
@ytthr: You need to get to know more people than. They are perfectly good cars, great even and offer much better value than a lot of other popular cars.
@Rimas: People are sleeping on vans/people movers. Much more cargo space than a wagon.
I opted for a 4WD. SUVs and 4WDs offer the height advantage in lifting a baby in and out of the baby seat. I’m only 6ft tall but my back hurts when I lifted my nephews and nieces in and out from my relative’s Jazz.
Also the 4WD is future proofing my family for camping trips.
@pogichinoy: Do some strength training then. Your back shouldn't hurt lifting 10-15kg out of Jazz. Future proofing for the 2 camping trips you go on a year..
Food for thought… still in the "look and see" phase. Bub arrives next week so I'll have a few weeks to trial. The pram itself already takes up most of the boot space though… + bassinet/seat (Ford Focus Hatch)
Here's a comparison of your Ford Focus Hatch vs. an "average" SUV like the CX-5 people are talking about: https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/ford-focus-2022-5-d…
Wheelbase is the same, so you'll have identical space in the backseats, and cargo volume is 500L vs. 400L, which I'm sure will make next to no difference for your pram.
The pram itself already takes up most of the boot space though… + bassinet/seat
Why are you lugging around a bassinet?
FWIW, you probably won't get a good SUV for $15k, but if you're intent on a bigger car, get a large sedan instead. You could actually get a really good condition Camry with fairly low mileage with $15k. Will give you more space than an SUV. Just won't get you the brownie points with other parents.
Ah it’s the bassinet attachment for the pram :)
Camry is an nice idea thanks… will shoot it past the missus 😅
I’m just in new dad mode juggling a lot of things right now 🤣
Edit: no go… missus wants the height for “safety” 🤷♂️
Edit: no go… missus wants the height for “safety” 🤷♂️
You mean increased risk of rollovers in an accident?
My dad was an engineer and worked at the Accident Research Centre at Monash Uni until he retired just several years ago. We had a lot of discussions on car design and road safety.
The conclusion (which is backed up by scientific literature) is that SUVs are "safer" than "lower" cars only in a head-on collision, which is the rarest of the four directions in which you could be hit.
From the sides, which are more common in accidents, SUVs are more likely to roll over than a regular hatchback or sedan. Shouldn't be surprising from the physics, SUVs have more mass, but a higher centre of mass.
More importantly, when doing the multivariate analysis (in simulated conditions), the effect of what car you drive is a smaller factor in the outcome of an accident vs. other factors, most notably driver ability. So if you want to pay money for safety, you should enrol your wife in a defensive driving course.
(Not trying to be a smartarse BTW, just pointing out that what you're saying isn't quite factually true. Ultimately, you drive what you want to drive.)
@p1 ama: She wants to see the road. She’s a 5ft lady 🤣
Yeh everything you say makes sense. Sometimes it’s not a rational based decision in the end 🥲
@donkeyhokey: It's rational to want to see the road. Just not rational to use the "safety" argument :)
@donkeyhokey: Yeah, I know - but just be aware that your $15,000 budget goes much further when you're not looking at an SUV because there's so much herd mentality with SUVs these days.
For example, $15,000 can get you a 2012-13 RAV4 with ~200,000km (e.g. https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2013-toyota-rav4-gx…, or https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2012-toyota-rav4-cr…)
Alternatively, $15,000 can get you a similar aged Camry, but with ~80,000km, literally less than half!!! (e.g. https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2012-toyota-camry-a…, or https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2012-toyota-camry-a…, or https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2012-toyota-camry-a…), or if perhaps one that's 5 years newer than the RAV4s, if you're happy with the same 200,000km (e.g. https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2017-toyota-camry-a…)
I'm not trying to sell you a car (so I'm just being honest), just that when you're on such a tight budget, you should probably hunt for value. You'll literally get like 3-4 years from a car with 200,000km, you can probably easily get 10 years from a car with 80,000km.
Anyway, good luck!
@p1 ama: Thank you for talking so much sense. I hope this discussion pops up on google when people search for "baby" and "SUV".
Some friends bought a new car not too long ago and they wanted something bigger SUV-like so it would have space for a pram (they are not even trying yet). I told them if they want space, buy a wagon otherwise everything except a Picanto or a Yaris will will have the space you need.
We need an SUV tax.
That's fine. My pram took up my boot in my A Class and we stashed things under/over it. Extras can just go in the back seat. You can make it work.
I've now got 2 kids in the A Class, thankfully the eldest doesn't need a pram anymore 😂
You won't need the bassinet after a pretty short while so the pram should end up being a lot smaller. We had our first in a 2004 Mazda 3 and it was absolutely fine. You could always get a tiny foldup pram purely for travelling. We picked up a Redsbaby one and it was fantastic for trips.
Thanks for the tips!
Have had have the ford focus as our daily with the first kid. No issue. Bugaboo Chameleon goes into boot.
Managed it too when the second one came.
Replaced it with a new civic ehev not wanting to deal with Ford Focus reliability.
I don’t have kids and having a kid size SUV is a game changer. From my lower back and knees, to not having to worry about steep driveways and scraping.
I just had a hire car Corolla and I couldn’t go back to a regular sedan/hatch.
Also, who’s buying a Yaris thinking it has more space than a Camry. They’re probably one of the smallest cars on the road.
Maybe try some strength training to fix those knee and back issues.
Why be a d*ck for? You’ve no idea what I do or don’t do, nor what health issues I have to deal with.
Strength training isn’t a one stop shop to fix everything. Why do I say this, because I already do it.
Shoot your personal recs for used SUV/CUV with space for pram and car seat. $15k ish.
Rav4
First car that came to mind… just can't find anything around 15k unless I'm looking at 2011s.
Honda CRV ???
Will check it out👍
Honda CRVs definitely worth a look though you may have to go up a couple of k. Huge interior space and a smooth drive.
Very true, My CRV has been going good for 10 plus years - ample boot space, very realiable, the doors open at 90 degrees (trust me you will need this) and spacious back seat to put random kiddies junk (again you will soon find out what that means)
Hyundai Tucson
As the first mention of my current daily I will reply to this but it is towards OP @donkeyhokey .
Recently purchased a 2017 Hyundai Tucson Active tl MY17 - 166,000km's for $10k from Grays Online auction website after a day on the terps (was looking for a new car anyway). It is around the 15-20k mark on carsales.
Word of warning, buying car from the auctions is a gamble, just like buying a car without RWC from fb marketplace (or sometimes even with a rwc). I was very lucky as mine passed rwc without a single fault, I do not recommend auctions unless you are mechanically minded.
As someone who does all their own maintenance, before picking up the car I started to look into this side of things without knowing the exact engine in it, during this research I have found there is a class action lawsuit on-going in Australia against hyundai for a large range of their cars. Because of this there is also a FB group which appears to only have members who have issues and they share their experience dealing with local dealerships & headquarters trying to get engine replacements (some have been told $18k to replace an engine lol). Some of the requirements for headquarters to agree for a good will replacement are never missing a service & all servicing done by a hyundai dealership (a small amount managed to get good will by providing itemized receipts from their mechanic).
Outside of petrol/diesel there's 1.6l turbo (apparently pretty reliable), 2.0L Gdi (unreliable) and 2.0L Mpi (reliable, also what I have). Then there are different versions of those 3 depending on year of car and/or if a replacement was installed. I would highly recommend regardless of engine to perform oil+filter changes every 10,000km's - 5w-30 full synthetic and if it starts chugging oil investigate or get rid of it, give it 30sec idle minimum before driving and try to keep around 2,000rpm under 3,000rpm until it's warm.
I upgraded from a hyundai 05 accent (hit 320,000km's and it's still going strong).
Some things I love about the new car: very smooth ride, decently fuel efficient 6-7L to 100k's highway, 8-9L around town (but I don't flog it), brakes are great, infotainment+speakers great, feels smaller than the accent to park whiles being higher up to see around better. Reverse camera is great and I like the overlay. Tons of boot space more than the mazda suvs.
Some things I don't like: Headrests, on newer cars headrests push your head/neck forward; the claim is it apparently lessens whiplash in a crash as "people" don't sit back in seats properly and hunch over. Ridiculous. Cruise control - I have seen it go 10kph OVER what it is set to when going downhill and when braking during this period it will de-activate however last time I did notice it go down a gear I guess to engine brake? Acceleration lag, mine does not have any 'mode' settings (some apparently have eco/normal/sport) and there is a very noticeable lag like 1-3seconds; I am getting used to this however and starting to compensate.
Initially I thought I might flip the car and make an easy buck but now I am enjoying it and have decided to keep it. Insurance pretty cheap ($380 for $17.2k comprehensive cover 1 year), tyers are more pricey than my old car lol.
Thanks very much for taking the time to go into such detail. 🙏
Do you mind sharing how the auction process works? When you bought the car, did you actually test it out or just bought based on pics? Tia
Not OP, but I have bought a couple of cars via online auction.
You can buy based on the supplied pics and their own descriptions, but that's a bit risky. I've found that the descriptions are actually quite accurate and thorough, and they have to disclose any major faults they know about….but the feeling you can get from actually walking around and sitting in a car can tell you a lot about the overall condition - scuff marks, cleanliness, discolouration, random wear patches, missing trims and even a weird interior odour all play a part in giving an overall impression that's very hard to convey on paper.
You generally can't take cars for a drive when sold at auction, but they do allow you to start it up and listen to the engine.
Most cars will have been de-registered before going to auction, and you will need to get a new roadworthy inspection before re-registration. They can arrange this in-house for you, or you can arrange for a permit or tow-truck to take the vehicle away.
If a roadworthy check picks up any minor issues (tyre wear is a common one) they can usually arrange to sort that out for you (at your cost) through a supplier.
Also, be aware that a buyer's premium applies to most auction sales, so the price you bid will not be the total cost you will pay in the end. Find out what the fees are beforehand so you don't get a surprise later.
Overall I found the experience okay, but it leaves a of responsibility on the buyer to sort out any issues and you could easily get something with a lot of issues if you don't understand the true condition of the car. I would not recommended it for people who don't have much car knowledge or the willingness to do some minor fix-up work after the sale.
klaw81 is on the money.
I only bid on items located at grays dandenong address, only items that had current vic rego (as it is common for other states to send the big lemons down here). I was able to go to grays, give them my license and get key fobs for cars I am interested in, was allowed to start them, rev them slightly, open the hood but not allowed to move/drive them.
I am a bit far from melb so I mostly relied on the auctions face value, looking at pictures, looking at the log book pictures, their description (I think other locations descriptions aren't accurate) vin lookup etc. Cars are generally on auction for only 1 week so it's a bit of a pain.
When I won the auction because mine was just over 10k I had to bank transfer the money (auction final price+buyers premium) to grays. Grays sent me an email giving me only 2 days to do so (the auction finished at 8pm and that was counted as 1 of the days, I thought this was crap). I was then given a week to collect the car.
Filled out their transfer papers there, they gave me my own copy & all the stuff from inside the car (owners manual, etc). They then went and got the car and I waited for them just outside the office door. Handed me the keys, got me to sign another thing and off I went.
I had already booked it in for rwc for the following Tuesday as in vic you have 2 weeks to have a rwc to be able to transfer the rego. Once it passed I was given a digital copy of rwc (I think vicroads were also given a copy). I tried to do the transfer online but grays had not yet provided their copy of transfer forms to vicroads so I had to go into local vicroads with my copy. Weirdly after it was all transfer I received another 3 or so emails saying it has been transferred to me lol.
The car that came out before mine was a toyota hatch, it had real bad lifter tick. The bloke picking up that car was straight on the phone circling it and did not look happy at all. But that is the luck of the draw, cars can be sent to auction for all kinds of reasons.
I have had mates buy from fb marketplace only later to find out they couldn't transfer rego due to car being in an accident or just all-round flogged out cars or being stuffed around by the seller. To me the only difference between fb marketplace & the auctions is you can test drive a fb marketplace car and walk away from an offer. There is no buyer protection on either, once you hand over the cash you get what you get and you don't get upset.
Best of luck!
How do you manage $380 per year for comprehensive insurance? Seems amazing.
$2,300 excess (Standard excess: $750 Plus Flexi-Premiums excess: $1,550), insured for $17,200 agreed value (could choose an amount between $12,975 and $22,490). No road side assist, Hire car only if not at fault, no windscreen/glass cover. 3rd party is around the $200 mark. 'Lucky, I'm with Aami'.
Technically it's $381.23.
I don't drive that much and maybe my postcode (regional) has something to do with it too.
I've only ever had 3rd party with the same mob, they could be catching on as $180 for the extra safety net is hard to pass up.
@A-mak hey mate, as someone whose fully serviced 2017 Tucson active X just clapped out at 95K kms, I'm hoping that doesn't happen to yours. I would definitely not be taking the risk on another one.
Was yours GDI?
"Clapped out" means what, exactly? I assume major engine failure of some description.
@klaw81: Yea that was just me being lazy. Symptoms were basically a sudden very loud knocking from the engine. Oil consumption had gone up immensely. As soon as it started making the noise, I pulled over. It was so loud that a Mechanic across the street came over, checked oil etc, was pretty low but still fine levels. Topped up anyway, turned on, quickly listened to different parts of the engine with a stethoscope (not a joke) and advised to turn it off immediately.
My mechanic was quite worried when we turned it back on and said "without being dramatic, this is about to blow a rod straight out the side of your engine block".
From here:
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-recalls-defects/why…
"Hyundai and Kia say that many of the engine problems have to do with a faulty connecting rod bearing. The connecting rod is a vital component between the engine’s piston and crankshaft, and the bearing is between the connecting rod and the crankshaft. If one of these bearings fails, the driver might first notice a knocking sound, excessive vibration, or even an engine stall. Severe engine damage could result. In some cases, a connecting rod could puncture the engine block and cause an oil leak that could start a fire."
Had it towed to Hyundai dealer, despite their protestations.
Exact same symptoms, make and model of car and engine as this recall:
https://www.vehiclerecalls.gov.au/recalls/rec-005722 - just that the VIN number varies after the 9th digit.
I've read the recalls and the findings of the US class action.I've read the details of the current Australian class action. Hyundai 100% know that this is an issue.
TL:DR - severe engine noise. Could've ended very badly.
@anawth: Ooof - that's a "pull the whole engine out, pull it to pieces and replace vital parts" kind of repair. Or perhaps a straight engine swap with a refurb. Serious money involved, and disappointing for a car that's really not very old.
The risk of starting a fire seems quite low, but further damage to the engine block itself is definitely a major risk if you were to keep driving.
@klaw81: Yea, it sounds like a straight swap is what we're aiming for. Funnily enough, until I went to Hyundai corporate, the dealerships did not want to talk about it. Some brief discussions about service history, then the threat of legal action and past class actions, along with several precedents, there's now talk of a "goodwill, complimentary engine swap". We'll see how this plays out.
Mitsubishi Outlander - i have a 7 seater diesel.
Subaru Forester or Outback may fit the bill. Not sure on price, may be a bit on the higher end.
Lada
I agree with some of the comments here. No need to upgrade. We have two little ones and we’ve been totally fine with a Suzuki swift and a VW golf.
We have two baby seats and we can fit a double pram with room for several small bags.
Unless you plan to go camping or weekend getaway, you will be fine. Even with the occasional weekend getaway, hire the car. It will be allot cheaper.
Tell those midgets that drive a X7/Ranger/Ram for school run.
Kudos.
@Chinese what midgets?
Your budget is too low for what you want. That is why you are getting the absolute dregs. Captivate and Cherokees are cheap as they are utter shite.
Cherokees are cheap as they are utter shite
I dunno, they seem ok after doing a barra swap, a long travel coil conversion, diff upgrades and adding frame stiffeners…
theyre shitheaps
they are bottom as far as reliability goes
they 1st owner is going to be releived when he drops these turds onto the next buyer