Hi OzB,
With Citi bank’s retail arm is now with NAB, wanted to see what alternative options everyone is using for their travel cash needs?
I use my Citi account only for travel, to avoid carrying cash and exchanging money.
Essential features needed:
- ATM withdrawals in local international currency;
- AUD based local account, to easily transfer between my everyday account Aus bank;
- No fees, account keeping or international atm fees;
- Reasonable exchange rates.
Thanks
The big selling point of Wise is that they use the mid-market rate. How different are the Visa and MasterCard rates to the mid-market rate?
the difference is so small that it’s not worth worrying about unless you are paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for something tbh
And then?
@Scrooge McDuck: Well Wise uses mid-market rate + a % fee that they are transparent about.
Visa/Master uses the same but does not display their % fee. I've found in the past that it's less than a cent per dollar.
For withdrawals, Wise only allow a maximum of $350/mo fee-free.
So, when you start withdrawing more than that, the Wise having mid-market rate is no longer an advantage.
This would be different if you're using the card for purchases, but I find using a no fx fee credit card is too convenient over the small visa markup.
I tested my wise and my ING taking about the same amount of cash in Indonesia from an ATM one after the other - I got a better rate from ING at the time.
What @ocular said.
I’m in Japan right now, no issues at all. ATM charges $2.20 withdrawal fee but that’s 711/lawson not the Nab branded Citibank card.
Looked into Wise, not a fan. Much prefer my current card.
The 711 withdrawal fee is a Visa thing. Use any Mastercard to avoid fees.
bankwest
Not the best exchange rates. Better off with Macquarie or Up
they're all mastercard?
Not Bankwest. They have Mastercard acceptance but they convert to USD first then to AUD, so you are paying double the spread. Only like 0.5% difference or so.
@askbargain: Thanks for posting this. Was unaware of it. Waters down the attraction of using BW cards for foreign travel given the relatively low points earn rates & annual fees if they won't pass the Mastercard rate on.
Bankwest confirms this in clause 20 of its credit card conditions of use (https://www.bankwest.com.au/content/dam/bankwest/documents/l…):
What happens if I make a purchase in a foreign currency or overseas?
If a User uses their Card or Payment Device outside Australia, all charges, purchases and/or cash advances in foreign currency are converted, before they are listed on your Card Account statement, from foreign currency to Australian currency as follows:
Mastercard® foreign currency transactions are converted from foreign currency into United States dollars and then converted into Australian dollars by Mastercard International Incorporated at a wholesale exchange rate selected by Mastercard International Incorporated on the processing date, which may differ from the rate applicable to the date the transaction occurred and that applicable to the date the transaction was posted.
This wasn't noted in the OzBargain wiki of accounts with no transaction fees - have amended to note it.
@kipps: This is a standard clause. the actual rate matches MasterCard wholesale rate. So no difference between mac, Bankwest or up.
@kipps: I've done multiple transactions with all the above cards (mac, up, Bankwest) and all the same rate. Whatever lingo they use in the t&c doesn't have any practical difference on the exchange rate. It's always been MasterCard wholesale as per the MasterCard rate website.
https://www.mastercard.us/en-us/personal/get-support/convert…
@silenthillrocks: I just checked my Bankwest transactions and they also exactly match the Mastercard exchange rate.
No idea why their conditions would say they convert it twice. Is this just how Mastercard works in the background for everyone, it's just not noticeable? Or was it how it used to be done?
I see no reason why Bankwest in particular would randomly decide to process transactions this way if no-one else does.
@callum9999: I assume it's just how MasterCard works in the background since MasterCard is a US based company, all the conversions use USD as a base
@silenthillrocks: Looks like Up's terms disclose there's a transfer to USD as well as Bankwest. Now suspecting that all Mastercard systems are the same.
@askbargain: That's how all mastercard exchange works because it's mastercard doing it, not bankwest, not macquarie, not up, not cba, and not westpac (the exception is travel money cards).
My recent experience was that Macquarie was good for o'seas ATM withdrawals, no additional charges. Remember to always choose to be charged in the local currency rather than AUD - don't use anything along the lines of "guaranteed rate" or “dynamic currency conversion”. Meanwhile I used Bendigo and Bankwest credit cards for purchases (not atm withdrawals), likewise no hidden fees.
A related question - for buying stuff (tour guides, tickets etc) with credit card overseas online where there seems a higher than usual chance of credit card details being harvested and misused, is there a free system for generating single use credit card numbers - with no joining fee or monthly subscription?
@Horacio: revolut? not sure if wise digital cards are free.
zip plus also has single use cards with no international fees (but everyone prefers zip pay)
up bank has a digital card which you can destroy anytime and create a new one, not to be used as single use
Macquarie - Yes, definitely
Great bank and great bank accounts.
Thier "transcation account" pays the best interest in Australia for a transaction account without any conditions or qualifiers.
So no need to keep 2 or more bank accounts or jump through any hoops.
Took out 2k HKD in Hong Kong on the 25th of Feb and nab says that was $390.56. Google tells me it should be $390.10 so working well as long as they don't change the terms. No fees involved and it was a random branded atm.
I've made an international transfer today as well and will update once that fully processes.
Sounds, good however I’m sure they’ll eventfully move to generic NAB rates.
Why stress about it until then? The other cards in the market may also change rates/terms in the meantime to and you may end up needing to move twice.
Just wait until they announce any changes/you plan to travel and look into it when necessary.
Seems like transfer also working the same. Rate is lower than using credit (same when it was citi too) but that's because I choose recipient bank fees to be paid by me.
Why can't you just keep using the replacement NAB card? It kept basically all the forex related benefits, except can't use it at Citibank ATMs
That’s good to know, wasn’t aware.
I assumed they’ll just switch (now or in due course) to general nab fx rates, which isn’t great.
Banks generally keep the grandfathered benefits for a period then force switch everyone.
Wouldnt it be easier to just use the NAB card until that actually (if ever) happens?
The NAB card uses Visa exchange rates (the Citibank Plus card used Mastercard rates). Some people say that Mastercard rates are better.
If true it could be reason enough to want an alternative.
What you're looking for is Revolut. A massive hit in Europe, not so popular (yet) in Australia for some reason. Fx rates are much better than most Aussie banks', there are 40+ currencies in the app, you can send/receive money instantly and they give you a physical and a virtual card (for one off/riskier transactions) that lets you withdraw cash for cheap or sometimes even for free. They are not a bank yet in Australia, so your money would be sitting on an ANZ account.
Revolut sounds like Wise. Great for moving money around to different countries with mid range conversion rates. They often use a local foreign bank so can bypass the rip off Swift banking transfer system. Unfortunately the world is still fascinatedby USD and even wise has to resort to Swift when transferring usd in non US countries for some reason. Wise Cash ATM is not ideal $360 AUD limit per month with no fees and also has physical debit + virtual card. NAB Classic while it has Visa conversion rate and no fees will be my primary atm cash withdrawal internationally plus Wise backup. The Wise app is great with every detail of the transaction documented and no stupid SMS authentication which can be a pain OS.
It was a massive hit in Europe because it launched at a time where there were few options to use your card abroad without a load of fees. Australia already had multiple options available when it launched here, so I don't see a particularly good reason to use them over a normal bank.
Also in a lot of European countries it is hard to get a Mastercard or Visa debit with you're regular bank account, you're stuck using Maestro etc.
I don't understand the appeal of managing multiple currencies - or why it's presented as a feature or benefit.
I would be annoyed at needing to convert money before doing a transaction, keeping an eye on its balance etc. Dont have to when using a bank with good FX rates and no international fee?
That's exactly how Wise/Revolut work. The card will convert what money you have during the transaction. Overseas travellers just need to load up AUD and let the card do its thing.
The use case for managing multiple currencies is people that work in a different country and need a local bank account to get paid.
Ah thank you for this. This makes so much more sense now.
Ubank has worked perfectly for me on my current oseas trip
Yeh same when I got locked out of my ING account… Lucky always keep up as a back up card
What happened with your ING account? I personally use ING account/debit card overseas without much problems .. of course that is after going through all the hoops.
Wonder if ING can be an alternative to Citi?
Yep these work well
Our family uses:
Regarding getting the second card, so if your first first is stolen, you get it cancelled and unlock the second one and can continue using your account?
No, we open a second transaction account so we need to transfer our funds from the first to the second account. I wouldn't feel comfortable leaving money in an account where the card was stolen… even if the stolen card was cancelled.
The original account can stay active for direct debits (obviously leave some money there in that case) but you just won't have a card to use with it till you get home or have one sent overseas to you for a cost and potential inconvenience.
HSBC everyday global have good rates or HSBC internal rates?
It uses the internal rate for the 10 currencies it natively supports
The 0.5% travel load fee ensures there's a currency fee, albeit by a different name. No thanks.
0.5% - Debit card instant load fee (INSTANTLY)
That’s if you load via a debit card, there's other options, BPAY I think is one but that's slow, or mabye debit your bank account is another.
You have to use their own exchange rates, which have a fee built into them (2-3% from the look of a quick test with their GBP rates).
There's a reason why you earn 1 point per $4 spent in Australia but 1.5 points per $1 spent abroad…
@callum9999: I also did a quick comparison between MasterCard rate and Qantas for Eur. The inbuilt exchange rate fee was approx 5% for Qantas, so you lose about $50 per $1000.
@badg3rz: No? I'm not aware of that ever being the case with bank accounts - maybe in the pre-visa/mastercard days (if foreign use was even possible back then?).
The card issuer makes the rate (Amex/Visa/Mastercard) - the bank can then decide to add a fee to that or not. The numerous options listed here - all of which are better than the Qantas card you quoted - do not add a fee. Even those who do add fees would generally still work out cheaper than the Qantas card (though the frequent flyer points would make it better overall).
One of the absolute worst value for money cards around (perhaps except some of the commbank ones).
In the past, I used my Citiplus card for all international ATM withdrawals. In future I will travel with three debit cards:
Interesting regarding Macquarie, what option did you choose when withdrawing (Savings/Credit) in India?
I used savings. At the time, I contacted Macquarie & was advised to use credit. However, this didn't work either. I was in regional areas & mainly had access to SBI & BOI atms (there were also Canara atms which charge Rs. 250 for each foreign card withdrawal). However, when in Chennai, I was able to withdraw money from a Indian Bank atm successfully.
HSBC is what I use for cash. No fees for account keeping or withdrawals (at HSBC and partner ATMs). They just give you the market rate at withdrawal.
The only issue I have come across so far is a lack of HSBC or partner ATMs in Thailand.
For non-cash purchases I hold some points earning card with no foreign transaction fees. Right now it is a Bankwest card, previously Commonwealth.
I use HSBC for the added benefit of 2% off on domestic contactless transactions. One card for two purposes. This also ensures that my travel card never goes dormant as it is used in Australia too. Not fun to discover your Citibank Plus card had been disabled due to inactivity.
I just use my ubank card and that never has given me hassles. I also have a NABbvisa debit card, i havent tried using this overseas yet but from the looks of it, I should be able to without incurring any overseas transaction fees? I am keen to give it a go next time
I switched my main bank to Macquarie 4 years ago and have never looked back. No international transaction fees, domestic ATM fees rebated, they pay a decent interest rate on cash sitting in both transaction and savings accounts. It doesn't matter which account your cash is in, it gets paid the same interest.
There are international ATM fees I think but in recent years I've only been to Indonesia and they don't charge foreign ATM fees so it hasn't been an issue.
There are other banks who rebate/waive the international ATM fees I think.
Same here. Not to mention that once you get used to the Authenticator app there’s no going back to sms codes.
Wish other banks would follow suit.
+1 uBank. I like that i also got instant notication when I used my uBank which showed my spend in AUD.
Macquarie debit card holder here, have CommBank as primary and st George as secondary
What would be the best for travelling to France and Italy for card transactions and atm withdrawals?
Out of those 3, Macquarie
I have used the new replacement NAB card in Thailand. No fees, except for the horrible $8 ATM fee imposed by Thai banks.
Yeah, I took out the max amount and luckily only had to do it twice. Paid by CC wherever I could.
Even better if you withdraw from an ATM that allows more than the common daily limit of ฿20,000.
Bangkok Bank ATMs allow ฿25,000 withdrawals if I’m not mistaken.
Can also withdraw via a bank but only if you have time to kill…
There are a couple that do 30k, thats the ones i always use.
@HardQuiz: I have them written down somewhere. Krungsri does, thats the one i always look for / use. I cant remember if TMB does as well. I think Kasikorn does as well.
Can you avoid the $8 ATM fee at all? Such as by using certain branded ATMs?
No, that’s imposed by Thai banks.
Previously, ING refunded it, but not anymore.
Nope, Thai Bank Mafia, just like the Thai taxi mafia.
can confirm after using in Thailand
I've tried Westpac's Worldwide Wallet Travel Money Card for my recent trip and was pretty happy with it.
It looks fine if you only put AUD onto it, if you top up the foreign currency balances then you're charged a hidden fee.
Travel cards generally speaking are a massive rip-off… even whe they claim no fees they get you on the FX
In this case though, they use the Mastercard rates provided you load the card with AUD and use it like a debit card, rather than loading foreign currency onto it.
The big advantage of the Worldwide Wallet is that you can access Westpac's global ATM alliance for totally fee-free withdrawals.
The only real catch with the card is that if you use the card at any other ATM, Westpac charge a $2 fee.
Still, it's not a bad option if you're going to a country with ATMs from a bank that's a member of the Global ATM Alliance. https://www.westpac.com.au/international-travel/access-money…
isnt there a 3% international fee on top?
@jes: No, but what I did find was that the exchange rate was exactly 3% worse than Mastercard's rate.
So while there were technically no overt 'fees' including ATM fees, in the best traditions of banks everywhere, they still managed to screw me over and make money…
So I withdraw my previous recommendation on the Worldwide Wallet…
I bank with Up, and with them using Wise for international payments, I have had a great experience overseas.
UBank & Wise (both are free and you need more than a single card in case an overseas ATM decides to keep your card…)
Just used Up for ten days in Viet Nam - flawless. Instant transfer from my main account to my Up account via PayID/Osko, good rates, instant notification of AUD amount, physical card for cash withdrawals or when tapping didn’t work (though I didn’t have it, have ordered it now).
It’s just too easy, even if the rates are slightly worse than others (are they?) I’m willing to pay a little for such convenience. Their customer service is awesome too, can chat so no need to call. Had an issue where my transfers weren’t coming through to my Up account and they confirmed it was my main bank blocking them for security purposes - annoying, but a call fixed it.
Up bank's rates are the same as any other bank who offers a Mastercard and doesn't charge international transaction fees.
The rates you get from Up are identical to what you'd get from Macquarie or a Bankwest Zero Platinum for example.
The only differences are usually between Visa and Mastercard, meaning the rates you get from an ING or uBank Visa will be different to Mastercard.
They're pretty similar, some days one is slightly better than the other and some days it's the opposite.
Thanks for the info - what’s the vig with places like Up vs the spot rate?
Did you withdraw cash from ATM or just for purchases?
Just for purchases where I could tap (or input card details which I did do for hotel payment, saved $10 in fees).
I needed a physical card for when tapping didn’t work or I needed quick cash from ATMs but didn’t have one. But rule of thumb, exchange rates on the ground from money changers will be better than an atm anyway (and a shitload better than anywhere in Australia). We got better than the spot rate in Ho Chi Minh somehow, maybe money laundering 😅
Fully agree. We need to de-influence Wise and Revolut, especially when the use case is just spend money and withdraw cash.
They seem to be over represented on "before you travel" videos on tiktok probably just because they have a more catchy name and branding.
I'm using HSBC at the moment, though also have ubank and Up after changing due to the Citibank -> NAB thing.
One disappointing thing with HSBC is they don't use Osko so you can't move money there instantly - that makes me keep the ubank on hand 'just in case' and I need to be able to do things quickly.
Are you sure on the Osko limitation? I'm certainly getting instant transfers from HSBC back to UBank. I believe it is also instant into HSBC. (via BSB/Account-number in both directions, but an Osko transfer so instant)
interesting, I just tested ubank and it went straight through as RTP. I'll amend my comment, I tested again from St George, and it wasn't instant from St George.
Strange? I transfer from my ubank or CommBank into HSBC and it's there instantly. If you meant transferring from HSBC to other banks then I use Beem.
HSBC seems to use Osko for me .. weird.
yeah, it seems they can't do it between St George, but can with ubank and commbank, so i'd assume NAB also works instantly as well
I'd be interested in a test from Westpac since I'd expect they do transfers in the same way St george does (or doesn't)
I allowed nab to transfer to a NAB classic debit account and remaining citi funds got transferred across.
All the previous features of international atm use have been applied to this NAB debit card. (Except no guaranteed nil 3rd party fees from citibank atm as NAB dont have an overseas affiliated atms apart from maybe NZ)
Recently tested the NAB classic card/citibank/wise card for cash withdrawals when in NZ prior to the 24th Feb. Did a total of 7x$100 cash withdrawals. Only ANZ charged a $3 fee for all cards. BNZ
and Westpac charged no fees for any card. The conversion rate was essentially all the same and equalled the visa card rate.