NSW: Digital & Physical License Question

Devastator0 on 26/02/2024 - 10:13
Last edited 26/02/2024 - 10:14

Question for the OzB Brainstrust,

Recently, it has popped up in conversation between myself and a work mate about if, in NSW, are you still required to carry your physical license with you if you utilise a digital license? I was telling my work colleague that it appears you do as within the last 3 months, a friend of mine got pulled over (for an RBT) and issued with a fine for not producing his physical license but he had his phone and was able to produce the digital copy there…still had to cop the fine. Police told him that he was still required to carry his physical license and produce it regardless of having the digital copy.

Just wondering what the situation is around this if anyone is able to clarify for me. Would very much appreciate it!

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Comments

  • Jimothy Wongingtons on 26/02/2024 - 10:18
    +10

    Thats bloody mysterious…

    according to NSW government's website

    Customers who want to go wallet free can be confident their digital driver licence will be accepted as proof of identity.

    The digital driver licence can be used across NSW and is accepted by most pubs, clubs and the NSW Police.

    And surely they would have some kind of grace period to produce it, in QLD Its 48 hours to produce it to a cop shop.

    • Devastator0 on 26/02/2024 - 10:24
      +2

      Yeah, my work colleague was adamant that you didn't need the physical license but what happened to my mate made me think he was totally wrong about it. I asked my friend if he said to the police when he was pulled over that the digital license was a valid and acceptable method to prove identity but he told me that the police just kept repeating that it was a requirement to still carry a physical license and he'd be issued with a fine for not producing one immediately.

      • Jimothy Wongingtons on 26/02/2024 - 10:26
        +12

        definitely sounds like grounds to make a complaint

      • Murkymerv on 26/02/2024 - 12:42
        +2

        I hope he contests the fine , obviously law enforcement is not on the correct page !

        • Devastator0 on 26/02/2024 - 12:46
          +2

          @Murkymerv, yeah, so he attempted to appeal and failed and is subsequently taking it to court.

          • Murkymerv on 26/02/2024 - 13:03
            -2

            @Devastator0: I know its expensive , but these thugs cant get away with this behaviour. Remember how we were treated with covid lock downs , it wasnt that long ago but their behaviour in Victoria was shocking !

    • kerfuffle on 26/02/2024 - 10:33
      +8

      I don't think NSW has any grace period like other states. You have to carry your (physical or digital) licence with you at all times

    • HeWhoKnows on 27/02/2024 - 14:26

      I have produced my DDL when pulled over for RBT without a problem.
      Just make sure you check with the policeman first BEFORE TOUCHING YOUR PHONE!

      There are obviously some nasty, power hungry police out there just looking to push thier weight around.
      The Highway Patriol Police typically fall into this category and Im told they are also unpopular with General Duty Police.

      I believe if producing a physical license was "demanded" and your were fined for not doing so, it could be successfully challenged and contested in court on the basis of:
      a) the driver wasn't given sufficient time to produce their physical license, but did produce thier DDL
      b) the police were being unreasonable in thier request to demand a physical drivers license given a Valid DDL was produced.
      c) its only "recommended" to carry your physical license. Nowhere does it say you must produce your physical license upon request, unless you cannot produce your DDL for some reason, such as reception or phone issues.

      See here for more details
      https://www.service.nsw.gov.au/campaign/nsw-digital-driver-l….

    • HeWhoKnows on 27/02/2024 - 14:30

      This from Service NSW - "Licence holders and the NSW Digital Driver Licence"

      "NSW Digital Driver Licence
      The NSW Digital Driver Licence is the digital version of the NSW Driver Licence available on your smartphone through the Service NSW app. It can be accepted wherever a plastic driver licence can be used in NSW and is broadly accepted interstate…………

      …..You can present your digital driver licence to NSW police officers and licence checkers just as you would the plastic card. They will visually check the features or scan the QR code to confirm its validity"

      But also:

      "Conditions
      The NSW Digital Driver Licence is legal for use across NSW and is accepted by most pubs and clubs, and NSW Police. It doesn't replace your plastic card, so we recommend you still carry your card as a backup…"

      Also note the following from Service NSW:

      "You don’t need to hand over your device to the licence checker. If a licence checker is struggling to view your digital driver licence, adjust the tilt of your device or turn up your brightness settings. "

      See here:
      https://www.service.nsw.gov.au/campaign/nsw-digital-driver-l….

  • Ryanek on 26/02/2024 - 10:21
    +9

    Your mate got done dirty. I suspect it would be easy to appeal though.

    • Devastator0 on 26/02/2024 - 10:27
      +1

      Here's the thing though, he did already attempt to appeal it right but on the fine he received, it just said (Don't quote me exactly here) that the driver didn't produce his license, it didn't specify (from what he told me) that he produced the digital one, not a physical one and they rejected his appeal for it saying that the officer specified that the driver produced no license at all.

      I told my friend that he should take it to court but yeah, agreed done dirty.

      • kerfuffle on 26/02/2024 - 10:35
        +3

        Did your friend produce the digital driver licence accessible via the Service NSW app, or did he produce a digital photo of his physical driver licence? If the latter, that could explain why the appeal was rejected.

        • Devastator0 on 26/02/2024 - 10:37

          I did ask him that and he said it was in the app, yeah.

      • Wiadro on 26/02/2024 - 21:42
        +2

        nswpf can scan the qr code generated in the service nsw app with their mobipod (pda).
        its a live updated qr code.

        the issue is alot of people forget their login to the service nsw app and have their licence as a screenshot which is invalid and classed as not carrying.

  • kerfuffle on 26/02/2024 - 10:32
    +8

    I've been pulled over for a RBT in the last few years and showed the police officer my digital driver licence (after turning off the car engine so I couldn't get done for using my phone while driving). Wasn't asked for my physical licence (which I only carry nowadays when travelling interstate)

    • Jimothy Wongingtons on 26/02/2024 - 10:50
      +1

      (after turning off the car engine

      this is very important - there was a news article where police said they had the option of fining you for even using paywave at drive through if engine is on - sorry for a new.com.au article

      but i dont think this was the issue in op's story

      • Elegant Giant on 26/02/2024 - 20:05
        +3

        For NSW, from https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety/topics-tips/mobi… , for any driver (Learners, P's, fully licensed)

        Can I access my mobile phone wallet functions if my vehicle is stationary and off the road?
        Yes, if you need to use a mobile phone wallet function to make a transaction, show a coupon or access an area, then you may do so as long as your vehicle is stationary and off the road, such as in a carpark, driveway or drive-thru.

        Same page:

        If I have a Digital Driver Licence and I’m pulled over by NSW Police, when is it OK to pick up my phone to show my licence?
        You can only handle and use your mobile phone to access your Digital Driver Licence after a police officer has asked you to do so. It’s illegal to touch your phone before a police officer instructs you to do so.

        Additionally links you to: https://www.service.nsw.gov.au/campaign/nsw-digital-driver-l…

        For all driver licence holders, the NSW Digital Driver Licence has the same legal status as the plastic driver licence in NSW and is accepted more broadly interstate. It’s optional, doesn’t replace the plastic card and is available at no additional cost.

        The NSW Digital Driver Licence is accepted by most pubs and clubs, and NSW Police.

        It’s illegal to access your Digital Driver Licence when driving, including when stationary, unless you’re asked to do so by a police officer.

        • xylarr on 27/02/2024 - 09:21
          +1

          I mean the above makes it clear - ok if the police officer asks you.

          But as an aside, I drive an electric car (Tesla). There isn't really an off. The best I can do it out it in park. I was once dropping off some stuff at an e-waste collection facility. They said turn off my engine. It took a while to convince them it was indeed "off".

    • FiDad on 26/02/2024 - 12:52
      +2

      Same experience here. I have been Pulled over 3 times in last 2 years and i produced my digital license each time and no one asked for my physical license(which i also dont carry unless i go interstate)

    • bitesized on 26/02/2024 - 14:07
      +2

      Was pulled over for RBT in late Dec, showed the police officer my digital driver license and was all good. My car was still in drive, and I was in one of the long RBT queues.

      Sucks to be your friend OP, I would go to court if I could.

  • freefall101 on 26/02/2024 - 10:40

    https://www.service.nsw.gov.au/campaign/nsw-digital-driver-l…

    Who accepts it
    More industries and businesses can now accept the NSW Digital Driver Licence as evidence of permission to drive, proof of age and identity.
    You can present your digital driver licence to NSW police officers and licence checkers just as you would the plastic card.

    I mean, it doesn't explicitly state you never have to carry the plastic card, but that's the clear intention here. You'd think if you still needed a plastic card to drive they would clearly state that.

    • jv on 26/02/2024 - 11:25
      -8

      You'd think if you still needed a plastic card to drive they would clearly state that.

      On the VIC website, it suggests you do…

      • timthetoolman on 26/02/2024 - 12:43
        +4

        NSW has been said 11 times above your comment.
        Might be wrong, but I don't think the VIC laws will be much help to them

  • jv on 26/02/2024 - 11:25
    -7

    are you still required to carry your physical license with you if you utilise a digital license?

    Depends… You may come across a place that doesn't yet accept the digital license.
    Best to carry both for the time being.

    • deme on 26/02/2024 - 12:23
      +3

      Go away Victorian.

  • Euphemistic on 26/02/2024 - 11:42
    +8

    I wonder wether the OPs friend failed the attitude test.

    It seems fairly clear that, from the links and quotes provided the NSW police should accept the digital licence from the app.

    Problem with contesting is how do you prove you accessed the licence from the app at the time of the offence? If the cop says you didnt show your licence can you prove that you did?

    • apsilon on 26/02/2024 - 11:53
      +1

      I wonder wether the OPs friend failed the attitude test.

      Exactly my thoughts. It's very clear you don't need to carry the physical licence, it's stated in multiple places on official gov sites that the digital licence is accepted in cases like this so I feel there's more to the story.

      • Devastator0 on 26/02/2024 - 12:39

        so I feel there's more to the story

        Believe me, there isn't. The only thing I can think of is that the issuing cop was mis-informed to the actual rules and was just being a stubborn/grumpy pain and my mate was on the receiving end of that.

        • apsilon on 26/02/2024 - 13:13

          Believe me, there isn't.

          So you were there/this is the classic "asking for a friend" scenario. Otherwise you only know what you've been told and as they say, there's always 2 sides to a story.

          Do you have a dashcam? Even if you can't see anything the audio would show you produced the digital licence and it was rejected. Take it to court if the appeal was rejected on grounds of not producing licence as requested.

          • Devastator0 on 26/02/2024 - 13:24

            @apsilon: lol no, I'm not the friend. I'd wear it if it was me. Friend is pretty straight up and just was telling me what happened, not sure what else I can say to that. I'm not actually asking about the matter of him getting fined, that is what it is for him, I was moreso just trying to get a proper/clear understanding of the rules behind this. Friend unfortunately does not have a dashcam but he's still going to take it to court. Surely they would be able to validate how long he has had a digital drivers license enabled/activated for and connect the dots for this situation.

            • apsilon on 26/02/2024 - 14:50

              @Devastator0:

              Surely they would be able to validate how long he has had a digital drivers license enabled/activated for and connect the dots for this situation.

              FWIW the court won't do this for them, they'll need to contact RMS beforehand and jump through whatever hoops they want if they'll even provide the info.

              Cop could still claim they refused/didn't produce a licence when requested.

          • Caped Baldy on 26/02/2024 - 14:20
            +2

            @apsilon: Highway patrol are known to be assholes even amongst police so it could go either way.

            • apsilon on 26/02/2024 - 15:22
              +1

              @Caped Baldy: That's true but this was just RBT so wouldn't have been highway patrol, just regular cops.

    • Devastator0 on 26/02/2024 - 12:38

      I wonder wether the OPs friend failed the attitude test.

      Nah, knowing him, I wouldn't say he failed the attitude test. He's pretty normal and level headed, not the kind of person to lash out or be a smart arse or anything like that.

      Problem with contesting is how do you prove you accessed the licence from the app at the time of the offence? If the cop says you didnt show your licence can you prove that you did?

      Exactly this! When he told me what the fine actually said and that it didn't match what the supposed infringement was, how do you combat that.

  • sumyungguy on 26/02/2024 - 12:18
    +1

    You must continue to hold and carry your NSW Driver Licence Card at all times when you are driving outside of NSW; so perhaps the issue was incorrect presentation of the DDL to the police officer

    • kerfuffle on 26/02/2024 - 12:40
      +2

      Sounds like the offence occurred in NSW though? OP, where did the offence take place?

      • sumyungguy on 26/02/2024 - 20:28

        Sure, I understood it occured in NSW. Just flagging there appears to be no requirement to carry your card inside NSW, only across the border.

    • Devastator0 on 26/02/2024 - 12:41

      With you saying and showing that, I suspect that it may possibly be a case of the officer not understanding the regulation for it. My friend was pulled over within NSW but yeah, that's the only thing I can think of.

  • bobbified on 26/02/2024 - 12:19

    I wished we had a \digital licence in Victoria. It's the last card I have to carry! But it seems we're too broke.

    • roguescholar on 26/02/2024 - 12:58
      +2

      Yeah, but even in NSW some banks and government departments won't accept digital license as ID.

      • bobbified on 27/02/2024 - 09:21

        They're not places I frequent, so if we had digital licences, I'd probably just stop carrying my wallet when out and about, especially at night.

    • Tigercjn on 27/02/2024 - 16:00

      That's wrong; Victoria has been implementing it after trialling it in Ballarat since last year. Here is the info from vic roads

      We’re rolling out digital driver licences across Victoria by 2024. If you’re a full licence holder and live in Ballarat, you can be the first to participate in the digital driver's licence pilot.

      From July 2023, fully licensed holders with a valid driver's licence in Ballarat who have registered their interest through their myVicRoads account will be exclusively invited to download their very own digital driver's licence.

  • hasher22 on 26/02/2024 - 12:47

    Lets just assume everything was in order, OPs friend in the car, in NSW, opened the app and showed their DL. The cop wasn't having it and fined them.

    I'm not gonna link the NSW gov and it clearly state one can show their DL via the app and nothing state a physical card needs to be present as a backup or needs to be on person.

    With what being said, I'll be hella pissed off, ask for the cops ID or whatever and file a dispute about the fine.

    Even some NSW police Facebook pages where posts from cops confirmed people don't need their physical license anymore to show to officers.

    Geez. I've shown my digital license to everyone (cops and businesses small and large) as I haven't got knocked back since. I got my digital license when it first introduced and I never carry my physical license since.

  • pharkurnell on 26/02/2024 - 14:37
    +1

    What is the point of a digital license if you still need a plastic one?

    • Devastator0 on 26/02/2024 - 14:45

      lol yeah I know, every single person who I've told about this situation has said exactly the same thing.

      • Jimothy Wongingtons on 26/02/2024 - 15:02

        yeah..definitely has to be more to this story than the facts presented so far.
        op if you dont report back with an update i will (and maybe some others) will be pretty upset

        • pharkurnell on 26/02/2024 - 15:16

          definitely has to be more to this story than the facts presented so far

          Hasnt mentioned that the phone was flat…couldnt see anything….

        • Devastator0 on 26/02/2024 - 15:16
          +1

          @Jimothy Wongingtons, yeah, I've hit up my mate to keep me up to date with the result of his court case. As for the facts on this, I've passed on all information that I am able to provide but yes I'll post results/update when I can.

  • crentist on 26/02/2024 - 16:25

    Cop is wrong or friend is lying
    I know who I'd trust

    • bdl on 26/02/2024 - 19:21

      Cops' friends :D

  • bdl on 26/02/2024 - 19:17

    https://www.service.nsw.gov.au/campaign/nsw-digital-driver-l…

    "The NSW Digital Driver Licence is legal for use across NSW and is accepted by most pubs and clubs, and NSW Police. It doesn't replace your plastic card, so we recommend you still carry your card as a backup while venues get used to seeing and accepting the digital driver licence as identification. " lol good one Service NSW

    From memory when they were trialing the digital one pre-rollout in Eastern Suburbs you had to carry both (well, more precisely, you had to have your physical one on you if you wanted to use the digital one) - but that was years ago

    • Devastator0 on 26/02/2024 - 20:00
      +1

      "The NSW Digital Driver Licence is legal for use across NSW and is accepted by most pubs and clubs, and NSW Police. It doesn't replace your plastic card, so we recommend you still carry your card as a backup while venues get used to seeing and accepting the digital driver licence as identification."

      Yeah see, I saw that too so they have unclear messaging about it even after all the years since it was implemented.

      • crentist on 26/02/2024 - 22:24

        Yea they should phrase that better. What they mean to say is that the plastic card remains valid, even if you have digital.

  • John Kimble on 26/02/2024 - 22:26

    That sucks.

    Was RBT'd recently for the first time in years and just had to count to 10, no licence request from the cop. 🤷🏻‍♂️

    • kiitos on 27/02/2024 - 10:24

      My daughter is on her Ps and was RBTed a few weeks ago and also wasn't asked to show her licence, which surprised me.

      • kerfuffle on 27/02/2024 - 10:27

        They only make you show your licence if you were doing something dodgy. If it's a standard pull-over with other random cars at a RBT site, I wouldn't expect to show my licence. In my case, my driving was erratic and caught the attention of a police car, so they flashed their lights to get me to pull over for a RBT.

        • Grunntt on 27/02/2024 - 10:50

          They only make you show your licence if you were doing something dodgy. If it's a standard pull-over with other random cars at a RBT site, I wouldn't expect to show my licence.

          Try driving into Campbelltown NSW on their regular RBT nights and see if they don't check your licence. Happens every single time for every driver pulled in for a check. (I guess some would call driving into Campbelltown as something dodgy on it's own)
          When I worked in the area I would go past that spot multiple times every night.
          I asked one of the regular officers there and they have instructions to check all licences.

        • apsilon on 27/02/2024 - 11:12

          I've been asked to show licence at standard roadside RBT several times. They never used to but seems they started doing it several years back. I figured they were checking people were actually licenced and complying with any licence conditions. Easy check given you're stopped anyway.

  • andrek on 27/02/2024 - 07:45
    +2

    Some places still require a physical card. You can't bank at a branch with digital licence , they will want to see the physical one.

    • John Kimble on 27/02/2024 - 08:24

      Australia Post also

    • Inzo on 27/02/2024 - 21:02
      +1

      and Car Rental companies, if you dont give them physical license, and physical credit card for the bond (the argument i had with Europcar) - it's buh bye see you later.

  • 2esc on 27/02/2024 - 08:48

    I've choosen to stick with a physical copy because what if your phone has a major failure and you cant turn the phone on? There are also many phone blackspot areas around and even more if you dont use Telstra in regional Victoria.

    • kerfuffle on 27/02/2024 - 08:56

      Well you don't need to worry about major phone failure since you're a Victorian and therefore don't have a digital driver licence. I guess you also carry physical payment cards in case your phone has a major failure and you can't use Apple Pay/Samsung Pay/G Pay?

      In my case, should that happen (highly unlikely), I can quote my driver licence number off the top of my head.

  • Austaurean on 27/02/2024 - 12:45

    https://www.nsw.gov.au/driving-boating-and-transport/driver-…

    Just make sure you can access the app and be in park, and ask the officer prior to touching your phone.

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